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In this thread I will adress the Issues I have with people trying to come with solutions to make the scene better for Eu and Na.
Basically lately I don't really agree with all the ideas being throwen around to make it better for the foreign players. It seems like a lot of people are looking at results and want to change the way the outcome is to the way the koreans are dominating.
First of all I will adress what Catz had to say in Sotg. He basically said that he would like some American tournaments to be only played by American's. The reason was that for people coming to starcraft, they see how they can win money at tournaments. Instead of koreans taking wins at every tournament they compete in.
His philosophy is that if players could see tournaments they can win in, they are more motivated to play and it will help the overall growth of Sc2 in the west. The more players from the west are practicing hard for a tournament, the higher the level of play will become in the west.
Now this idea sounds really good in theory, here are some reasons why I don't think it will work. The reason a lot of people are watching a Dreamhack and a MLG is because of the quality of games, and the level of play they can expect at those tournaments. People like to see how their foreigners compare against the big guns out of Korea. The tournament is raised in value because they know that their tournament is an good environment to rate the players competing in it.
I don't think people should be practicing to win tournaments, but practice to become one of the best players in the world. And that means you need to see the reality of it. You can only become better by competing against better players. The will to perform is there when your opponents have a sick amount of skill.
The second idea I would like to adress is the WCS. Now with the WCS having 5 players from Eu and 5 players from Na competing in an offlne tournament. This means either Koreans come here to dominate, or we have an unbalanced tournament where the difference in level of skill between the good and the best players is huge.
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Of course if more progammers arise in one area let's take NA for example more seeds are awarded to them.
This is what is being done in football(soccer) for years. The better countries get more teams seeded and wildcards given in the Champions League versus the lesser countries. It will be stupid to have from every country 2 teams, that means that Poland and England have for instance the same amount of teams. This will decrease the level of the Champions League, compared to what it is now. And an English competition(premier league) will be the grade to compare.
WCS won't be the tournament to decide who is the best, but a GSL and OGN will.
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What fun is it if it's a top 8 Korean placing at a tournament like DreamHack? Some people want entertainment, they want the story of a foreigner beating a Korean, others want the best gameplay, which is Korean vs Korean. I'm in favor of the best games that can be played.
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How many of these threads do we have? What's new about this one? I want to create a thread too should I take the same old topic and be the 57673th to right something about it?
Sorry but nothing new here ... some people want the best games, others want to watch players they can relate to more easily ... enough said!
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Double post mistake ... sry
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Triple post mistake ...
>>> POSTING SPREE !!!!
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This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
This is a troll post i think. I mean I cant really name more than 2 good europeans who can compete with the best koreans, and i cant name a single NA player that can but still, people want to see hometown favorites dude.
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On April 04 2013 17:45 LiLSighKoh wrote:
What fun is it if it's a top 8 Korean placing at a tournament like DreamHack? Some people want entertainment, they want the story of a foreigner beating a Korean, others want the best gameplay, which is Korean vs Korean. I'm in favor of the best games that can be played.
Well it is important to see the reality of it, knowing our Western players are inferior. If Naniwa will get to the last 5 of an Dreamhack I will still be proud as fuck and seeing it as an big achievment. And i don't mind koreans are left at the last 8. They also provide the games we want to see.
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I don't think your going to get foreigners wanting to compete to be the best overnight. You need to actually give them competition that's realistic first before they dedicate their hours and paychecks towards an improbable pay day. Lets put it this way: if your a progamer paying for your life, its a stupid risk to play with practice partners and hash out strategies, analyze replays, and stop streaming to keep strategies a secret, all for the effort of winning the mlg or gsl. People don't want to watch you deconstruct your replays on a daily base and hash out perfect timings, play the same matchup and the same strategy (bunker rush 100 times), and furthermore, you probably don't want to stream that stuff in order to give an edge.
Rather, your probably going to just try and place top 16 or top 32 so your name is still relevant, and make your buck off streaming and staying on the team.
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don't say sorry, i'm sure you are doubling in purpose to imitate them by doing same post again and again :D
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Even boxing has weight classes.
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On April 04 2013 17:49 mrRoflpwn wrote:Show nested quote +This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete. This is a troll post i think. I mean I cant really name more than 2 good europeans who can compete with the best koreans, and i cant name a single NA player that can but still, people want to see hometown favorites dude.
Well we have an good tournament with foreigners competing before the WCS. And I don't see why that will be a troll post?
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I'm sorry, I don't really care what the nationality of awesome players is - as long as I see them do awesome things. With that in mind, the WCS system they introduced, where anyone can 'farm' points for the WCS on any region server, seems perfectly fine to me.
Nationalisation of sports is actually a root cause of feeling hostility towards another nationality, while I feel that even though sports such as soccer attract a larger audience in the lower social layers of each nation, Esports shouldn't take that direction at all.
Of course I know that the facilities SK offers to it's players is superior to those in NA and EU, but you won't be 'growing' the facilities in NA and EU by not letting those players compete with each other anymore at all on major events.
On top of that, your statement that we 'need' national tournaments leaves me to believe that you don't even know of the existence of the one we have right here in the netherlands. The DSCL (Dutch Starcraft League). It has a few players from germany, but not a single Korean. If you don't enjoy watching awesome players and just want to see people who are only european or american win, watch those kind of tournaments.
WCS won't be the tournament to decide who is the best, but a GSL and OGN will.
I don't really understand what you mean here. GSL and OGN will be awarding some points for the WCS, and Koreans can play in any region, including europe and america to farm points for WCS. Why then are these tournaments supposedly more important? Do you understand the new system at all? Explain it to me please, because maybe I don't understand it or your interpretation of them.
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On April 04 2013 17:49 norlock wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:45 LiLSighKoh wrote:
What fun is it if it's a top 8 Korean placing at a tournament like DreamHack? Some people want entertainment, they want the story of a foreigner beating a Korean, others want the best gameplay, which is Korean vs Korean. I'm in favor of the best games that can be played. Well it is important to see the reality of it, knowing our Western players are inferior. If Naniwa will get to the last 5 of an Dreamhack I will still be proud as fuck and seeing it as an big achievment. And i don't mind koreans are left at the last 8. They also provide the games we want to see.
I don't have anything against koreans but I think it should be the opposite. The two foreigners would probably always be Stephano+random foreigner GM level and they get knocked out in the first round. The skill gap seems to be pretty high now and I have no idea how to solve this XD
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You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k.
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On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k.
You do know that the reason why korean player leave their korean team for an foreign team is because of the salary?
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On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k.
Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much.
The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level.
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I really got spoiled by Koreans, I just like to see the best possible games.
The last foreign game I watched was Thorzain v Killer... and well... never ever again.. it was so bad.
If foreigners really want more money/exposure they just need to step it up
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On April 04 2013 17:58 norlock wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. You do know that the reason why korean player leave their korean team for an foreign team is because of the salary?
I think you missed the entire point of my post. Every single Pro Sport rewards people who reach the minimum qualifications. If you can get through the door, you have a legitimate career.
SC2 is no where near that point. You have the top 20 yearly earnings that can justify playing SC2 instead of flipping burgers, and everyone else that's either flat broke or whoring themselves out for hundreds of hours on Twitch.
People keep ranting that Koreans should get all the money because Koreans are the best, and that everyone else should aspire to be as good as them. What happens in reality? If there is no money to be made outside of Korea, everyone simply packs up and leaves...or never even exists. Brood War proved that; having a massive scene in a single nation did absolutely nothing to foster the industry elsewhere.
If you want the foreign scene to be competitive, the money has to be there first.
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On April 04 2013 18:00 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much. The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level.
You're not going to get the teams, teamhouses and thus training environment in places other than Korea, if there isnt a stable league that they can compete in, outside of Korea. Thats why so many people like Catz, Incontrol, etc, are wanting a region specific league.
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What? I'm not sure why people are against the idea of koreans competing in foreign tournaments. They spent countless hours practicing to polish their strategies and mechanics. They deserve to be at the top because of this perseverance and effort and most importantly, they provide us with great games. Contrast this to a lot of NA players, more notably the EG team, their practice regime is half-assed and as exeZerg above me pointed out, the games they've been producing have been terrible and has shown how big the skill gap really is. If we were to create a tournament solely for Foreigners, the skill ceiling will be reduced and i doubt we'll see many intense back and forth games we've been watching lately. Competitions should be designed to recognise ability, not encourage mediocrity and complacency we've been seeing in foreign teams (EG).
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EPT
