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On April 04 2013 18:57 Kenny_oro wrote:
I don't care about nationality in Tournaments - I want to see pure, raw skill, dedication and a player i like crushing others.
Doesn't matter if he's from US, EU or KR. For everything else there's personal streams of players.
just my 2 cents
While it is true and I would prefer if Koreans moved to take more WCS spots, I think there's one thing even the most hardcore fan wants more than pure skill and best gameplay. Its the scene not to die. While I love to see Koreans play, I also want Starcraft to succeed 
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On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me?
He's a good entertainer would be my guess, I personally don't follow him but some videos of him are hilarious
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On April 04 2013 19:00 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me? He's a good entertainer would be my guess, I personally don't follow him but some videos of him are hilarious
He's also the leader of a much-loved team, ROOT. ROOT has quite the following.
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There is a market for college basketball.
Why can't there be one for Starcraft 2?
On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me?
Skill does not necessarily equate to more viewers and that translates to most forms of media.
Entertainment is what people want and they find that on Catz's stream. I'm not one to berate people for how they spend (or waste) their time.
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I think Blizzard and its partners have put a lot of thought into WCS. In the long term three mirrored leagues will eventually become roughly equal in skill which would be great for EU and NA.
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On April 04 2013 17:42 norlock wrote:
In this thread I will adress the Issues I have with people trying to come with solutions to make the scene better for Eu and Na.
Basically lately I don't really agree with all the ideas being throwen around to make it better for the foreign players. It seems like a lot of people are looking at results and want to change the way the outcome is to the way the koreans are dominating.
First of all I will adress what Catz had to say in Sotg. He basically said that he would like some American tournaments to be only played by American's. The reason was that for people coming to starcraft, they see how they can win money at tournaments. Instead of koreans taking wins at every tournament they compete in.
His philosophy is that if players could see tournaments they can win in, they are more motivated to play and it will help the overall growth of Sc2 in the west. The more players from the west are practicing hard for a tournament, the higher the level of play will become in the west.
Now this idea sounds really good in theory, here are some reasons why I don't think it will work. The reason a lot of people are watching a Dreamhack and a MLG is because of the quality of games, and the level of play they can expect at those tournaments. People like to see how their foreigners compare against the big guns out of Korea. The tournament is raised in value because they know that their tournament is an good environment to rate the players competing in it.
I don't think people should be practicing to win tournaments, but practice to become one of the best players in the world. And that means you need to see the reality of it. You can only become better by competing against better players. The will to perform is there when your opponents have a sick amount of skill.
The second idea I would like to adress is the WCS. Now with the WCS having 5 players from Eu and 5 players from Na competing in an offlne tournament. This means either Koreans come here to dominate, or we have an unbalanced tournament where the difference in level of skill between the good and the best players is huge.
This is what I think is the best solutions, in WCS 13 players are seeded from Korea and 2 players from EU and 1 player from NA. This means it is balanced between the regions compared to their skill. And also for Koreans not an handicap, and the need to fly over to compete.
Of course if more progammers arise in one area let's take NA for example more seeds are awarded to them.
This is what is being done in football(soccer) for years. The better countries get more teams seeded and wildcards given in the Champions League versus the lesser countries. It will be stupid to have from every country 2 teams, that means that Poland and England have for instance the same amount of teams. This will decrease the level of the Champions League, compared to what it is now. And an English competition(premier league) will be the grade to compare.
WCS won't be the tournament to decide who is the best, but a GSL and OGN will.
You basically counter yourself with this post. First you state that there shouldn't be tournements for one region/country only, but then you take the comparison to football. Realize that even though the seeds for the countries are different, there are still leagues in every country, which would mean that there also should be more regional based tournements in Sc2. I'm completly fine with a champions league kind of determination of who should participate in the final big tournements as long as there are regional leagues. For example i can not understand why MVP would participate in the ATC. (I mean i can understand it from MVPs side of view, they can ez farm some money, but why the were invited.) They already got the GSTL, to me it would make much more sense if these leagues would cooparate and only let teams of their representive region participate and eventually do a champions league kind of thing. Then in this league they could balance the skill difference with different amounts of seeds.
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On April 04 2013 18:57 Kinon wrote:
Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me?
He's not the greatest player but don't forget the guy is still considered pro and better than 99.8% of the players out there! That's one thing!
Another one is the guy proved to have a pretty good understanding of the industry with his player and team manager background! Yes this guy isn't the best pro player but he understands this industry better than most other pros (even though they're better at the game).
Bottom line: stop being morons and saying because a player isn't top 50 in the world he shouldn't say shit about e-sports, Being a good player and understanding an industry in terms of business are 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS !!!
Edit: following you're stupid ass reasoning noone on TL's forum should even speak since noone achieved anything ...
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On April 04 2013 17:51 People_0f_Color wrote:
Even boxing has weight classes.
Euh, boxing has weight classes because physical boundaries would prevent maybe otherwise superior boxers from winning. The only difference with foreigners and Koreans is that Koreans are willing to put in more effort than the foreigners.
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On April 04 2013 18:42 Micromnky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:36 shell wrote:
What i don't understand is why the people that only want to see korean players be so mad and vocal against the people(me included) that feel that some tournaments should be foreigner oriented.
You have the GSL, PL and GSTL and possibly more leagues incoming.. tournaments that i also see and follow and pay for them.
Don't we have the same right? I love to know who is the best NA player or best EU player.. i don't need to always see the same players since i follow them when they play at "home"
Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:40 haffy wrote:On April 04 2013 18:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 04 2013 17:58 norlock wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. You do know that the reason why korean player leave their korean team for an foreign team is because of the salary? I think you missed the entire point of my post. Every single Pro Sport rewards people who reach the minimum qualifications. If you can get through the door, you have a legitimate career. SC2 is no where near that point. You have the top 20 yearly earnings that can justify playing SC2 instead of flipping burgers, and everyone else that's either flat broke or whoring themselves out for hundreds of hours on Twitch. People keep ranting that Koreans should get all the money because Koreans are the best, and that everyone else should aspire to be as good as them. What happens in reality? If there is no money to be made outside of Korea, everyone simply packs up and leaves...or never even exists. Brood War proved that; having a massive scene in a single nation did absolutely nothing to foster the industry elsewhere. If you want the foreign scene to be competitive, the money has to be there first. Completely agree with this. Exactly this. I love GSL. I regularly stay up to ridiculous hours of the morning, local time, to watch Proleague live. But I'd love to see things like this happening in NA and EU as well. And I feel if they were to happen, then we'd see the overall skill, money, interest, amount of teams, and again, skill, of NA and EU players rise.
Requoting, I agree with these sentiments. Koreans won't have less tournaments to compete in than before, they just decided to use the GSL for the initial WCS seeding, seeing as it is a well-established long-running SC2 tournament in Korea. Korean players won't be worse off now than before.
Meanwhile, having official regional tournaments in NA/EU may make players in these regions more motivated to play, practice and improve slow, but steady. As competition gets fiercer for the nice WCS prize pools, the players practice more for hopefully having a realistic shot at the prize pool. Of course, Koreans are free toplay in these regions if they want to, but they have to commit to them and play with latency, in addition to pay for travel if they qualify for the season finals. It's a soft region lock with pro and cons for those that participate outside of the region.
In others words, there'll be something for everyone. Koreans will have the same amount of tournaments as before, and those that want to watch the absolutely highest level of play can watch GSL/Proleague etc. which will go on as usual, in addition to Korean pros that go to the regular MLGs, NASLs, Dreamhacks etc.
We also get more exposure for the NA/EU players and they have more motivation to practice and compete with a realistic shot at some money. We'll have some great storylines from each region and the season finals will be like a NASL/Dreamhack final, where there are both NA/EU players and Korean players competing. The only real "con" here is that they used the GSL for seeding I guess, instead of having it as its own qualifier.
Some people here also react to the fact that there are many good Code B/A Koreans that are better than most NA/Eu players and thus "deserve" WCS spots more than NA/EU players. Sure, in an ideal world where viewers only care for the best of the best players playing, you'd primarily have the Code B/A/S players and maybe a few select non-Koreans. But what's fair in terms of skill alone doesn't always work out with viewers and interest. We already have the Korean leagues with the best of the best, so making the WCS the same thing seems pointless.
I personally like what Blizzard has decided on with the WCS and can't wait to see all the regions play!
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On April 04 2013 19:12 butchji wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:51 People_0f_Color wrote:
Even boxing has weight classes. Euh, boxing has weight classes because physical boundaries would prevent maybe otherwise superior boxers from winning. The only difference with foreigners and Koreans is that Koreans are willing to put in more effort than the foreigners.
That's only partly true. A foreigner will never be able to become better than the Korean's on his own, no matter how much effort he's willing to put in on his own. You need the right conditions, coaches, good practice partners, competeing teams that creates higher level competition and so on. You can't will that to happen as an individual. The only choice right now is to actually go to Korea and try to make it, which in itself have other big hurdles since the conditions still won't be ideal. Until the the whole foreign scene gets closer to Korea in the infrastructure, effort just isn't enough. Hence region locking to enable that to happen more easily.
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good move for wcs. more diversity and a shared motivation for all the players. games should be region locked so koreans dont move to the us or europe to play.
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United Kingdom12023 Posts
"Why do we want foreigners to compete with Koreans"
Well for me I want to see them actually put more effort in to work harder in their teams to get better at the game. I don't want them to bother otherwise.
I want Koreans at all the tournaments because I like watching the best of the best play and if it turns out no foreign player can stand close, well I don't care as nationality doesn't come into who I support.
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There are only 3 races in Starcraft: Protoss, Zerg, and Terran. I don't care about the nationality of the players. I just want the best games possible.
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On April 04 2013 19:41 gruff wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 19:12 butchji wrote:On April 04 2013 17:51 People_0f_Color wrote:
Even boxing has weight classes. Euh, boxing has weight classes because physical boundaries would prevent maybe otherwise superior boxers from winning. The only difference with foreigners and Koreans is that Koreans are willing to put in more effort than the foreigners. That's only partly true. A foreigner will never be able to become better than the Korean's on his own, no matter how much effort he's willing to put in on his own. You need the right conditions, coaches, good practice partners, competeing teams that creates higher level competition and so on. You can't will that to happen as an individual. The only choice right now is to actually go to Korea and try to make it, which in itself have other big hurdles since the conditions still won't be ideal. Until the the whole foreign scene gets closer to Korea in the infrastructure, effort just isn't enough. Hence region locking to enable that to happen more easily.
Maybe, but Stephano, in his prime (not that he isn't good now), got pretty damn good on his own ^^
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from my point of view...no EU or NA Player is training/trying as hard as korean pro gamers. So they deserve the spotlight and the prize money. Prove me wrong...but koreans put everything in their game.
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at the end of the day there shouldnt be limitations or differences between Koreans and "foreigners" at the end of the day its been proving foreigners can compete and take games from Koreans the only problem is that foreigners lack the dedication and passion that Koreans have, the foreigners who have shown this passion and dedication have won tournaments and or got to top 8 in tournaments
all im saying is, its not the tournament system to blame, but the players state of mind
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On April 04 2013 20:09 cutler wrote:
from my point of view...no EU or NA Player is training/trying as hard as korean pro gamers. So they deserve the spotlight and the prize money. Prove me wrong...but koreans put everything in their game.
I'm not proving you wrong, but I woud love a source for your bald statement.
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yeah statements like the one from catz always comes from c-class sometimes b-class pros. all more or less reasonable arguments have the same source . the source inside the player, the need for wins. they cant win because they "suck". they lack skill, discipline and dedication. they are too lazy too work their butts off. they want to make a living out of sc2 without doing too much. but making a living out of it also means you have to work for it. unfortunatly things like streaming give the opportunity to such players to make a living out of it with just gimpimg around allday.
its basically "i want to win tournaments so i can feel successful but im too lazy to work my butt off for it. so i want the best gamers out of it ! "
and gamers motivated by it?? yeah cool "hey look now im able to win tournaments without improving myself cause koreans are gone" this is quite the opposite, dont you think? there is no better motivation than playing vs the best. every good sportsman can tell you that, may it be football, basketball or any other sport. catz just makes up random arguments in his frustration of winning nothing
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Stupid discussion.
This is a competitive rts game... the best players play.
The practice excuse is also bs, you are more than capable of getting good practice online with other pros and there are plenty foreigners who do nothing besides play this game...
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EPT
