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On April 04 2013 18:11 Micromnky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:00 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much. The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level. You're not going to get the teams, teamhouses and thus training environment in places other than Korea, if there isnt a stable league that they can compete in, outside of Korea. Thats why so many people like Catz, Incontrol, etc, are wanting a region specific league.
We can keep going in circles. You had NASL which was not really packed with Koreans but NA/EU people. Was it a huge success? I don't really know about it. A regional league would have a chance to be build up if money is present and money will only be given if there is interest. Interest though comes from competition and the best play possible. Do you really think putting money into a scene that is not on a level that is worthy watching would attract viewers? Certainly not or not worth the investment. EG does have a team hose, Axiom does have a teamhouse. Maybe the Koreans do have a league they can compete in, because they did build their scene beforehand and over a time which the foreign scene missed out on.
I'm not saying that its a bad thing to build up a foreign scene and leagues that are region locked but if you make one, make it like the GSL. Excluding a nation is NEVER a good thing, but even if you allow Koreans I think you are right that a region locked league would raise the level of play. The problem now is finding someone who is willing to put money into it to raise the league and with it the scene.
In the end it doesn't really matter if 1-2 players not from the region win it. The chance alone to make a living off it will probably enough to attract players. That being said, the risk stays the same. In Korea you have team houses you can pay acertain amount and you have a place to live and food just like in MoW - the risk itself still says outside of Korea.
If someone would just host houses and provide food/shelter for a certain amount of money, now that would be a good thing do to. I think paying ~200$ - 300$ is affordable and no big risk if you want to give it a shot and live your dream. You can work to have 200-300$ / month and spend the rest working on your career.... well. Thats it from me :D
Take EG for example; I think they got the sponsors and money and are excellent at promotion: Go rent a big house and let people live/train there work a certain amount of money. You provide the food / internet / computers. You don't need to make profit of it, just covering your costs... I think it would be very possible and a really good promotion AND it would raise the scene, because besides the fact that money ATTRACTS people, the RISK you have to take does SCARE them away. If you can decide to try for 6 month, spending above mentioned fee but not taking any other risk beside that, maybe we will see more people actually trying because the risk is just a lot smaller
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Please also factor in the numbers of viewers and people attending "LIVE" event especially for foreigners. With zero Korean players participate and the terrible skills set produced by NA only, i wondered who will want to host such event with minimum profits?
Korean's on foreign scene is there for a reason.
E-sports is not only about how good NA/EU vs KR. It's also about revenue and what the viewers want to see from world class players.
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13 kors 2 eu 1 us seems super boring³
3-4 good koreans and alot average GOOD Players no one cares about and no foreigns we love and know ...
sry cant see one good piece on whole idea
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On April 04 2013 18:16 Novacute wrote:
What? I'm not sure why people are against the idea of koreans competing in foreign tournaments. They spent countless hours practicing to polish their strategies and mechanics. They deserve to be at the top because of this perseverance and effort and most importantly, they provide us with great games. Contrast this to a lot of NA players, more notably the EG team, their practice regime is half-assed and as exeZerg above me pointed out, the games they've been producing have been terrible and has shown how big the skill gap really is. If we were to create a tournament solely for Foreigners, the skill ceiling will be reduced and i doubt we'll see many intense back and forth games we've been watching lately. Competitions should be designed to recognise ability, not encourage mediocrity and complacency we've been seeing in foreign teams (EG).
Yeah and another important thing to mention is that if we were to have foreign only tournaments, the foreigners would get even lazier.
They wouldn't have to compete with koreans anymore so their skill would reduce even further.
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Foreigners are not competing with Koreans. They are getting raped by them.
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Because its not fun to play against scrubs? Why did Dirk Nowitzki go to the NBA if he could just own all of European Basketball way easier?
You always want to play/beat the best! (or just make easy cash if you're american)
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On April 04 2013 18:25 Netsky wrote:
Foreigners are not competing with Koreans. They are getting raped by them.
ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ!
Please watch your words. Incoming flames detected.
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On April 04 2013 18:22 Kim Hyuna wrote:
Please also factor in the numbers of viewers and people attending "LIVE" event especially for foreigners. With zero Korean players participate and the terrible skills set produced by NA only, i wondered who will want to host such event with minimum profits?
Korean's on foreign scene is there for a reason.
E-sports is not only about how good NA/EU vs KR. It's also about revenue and what the viewers want to see from world class players.
us alone seems boring but i still think "no korean" tournaments would be great ...
SURE it SEEMS rassistic but its more like a tournament thats only for silver-platin does diamonds say" rassistic" ?
you can say no players "living in korea" would still make a handfull of koreans (polt etc) possibvle to play ...
yes i think "players not living in korea" tournaments would be the best !
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On April 04 2013 18:26 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:22 Kim Hyuna wrote:
Please also factor in the numbers of viewers and people attending "LIVE" event especially for foreigners. With zero Korean players participate and the terrible skills set produced by NA only, i wondered who will want to host such event with minimum profits?
Korean's on foreign scene is there for a reason.
E-sports is not only about how good NA/EU vs KR. It's also about revenue and what the viewers want to see from world class players. us alone seems boring but i still think "no korean" tournaments would be great ... SURE it SEEMS rassistic but its more like a tournament thats only for silver-platin does diamonds say" rassistic" ? you can say no players "living in korea" would still make a handfull of koreans (polt etc) possibvle to play ... yes i think "players not living in korea" tournaments would be the best !
I think i need to rephrase my words. I mean, MAJOR events with zero Korean's will not benefits from it.
Small event tournament only specially for EU/NA, then... why not? Have you wondered why Korean's can't be bothered with small event and only the MAJOR ones?
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On April 04 2013 18:20 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:11 Micromnky wrote:On April 04 2013 18:00 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much. The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level. You're not going to get the teams, teamhouses and thus training environment in places other than Korea, if there isnt a stable league that they can compete in, outside of Korea. Thats why so many people like Catz, Incontrol, etc, are wanting a region specific league. We can keep going in circles. You had NASL which was not really packed with Koreans but NA/EU people. Was it a huge success? I don't really know about it. A regional league would have a chance to be build up if money is present and money will only be given if there is interest. Interest though comes from competition and the best play possible. Do you really think putting money into a scene that is not on a level that is worthy watching would attract viewers? Certainly not or not worth the investment. EG does have a team hose, Axiom does have a teamhouse. Maybe the Koreans do have a league they can compete in, because they did build their scene beforehand and over a time which the foreign scene missed out on. I'm not saying that its a bad thing to build up a foreign scene and leagues that are region locked but if you make one, make it like the GSL. Excluding a nation is NEVER a good thing, but even if you allow Koreans I think you are right that a region locked league would raise the level of play. The problem now is finding someone who is willing to put money into it to raise the league and with it the scene. In the end it doesn't really matter if 1-2 players not from the region win it. The chance alone to make a living off it will probably enough to attract players. That being said, the risk stays the same. In Korea you have team houses you can pay acertain amount and you have a place to live and food just like in MoW - the risk itself still says outside of Korea. If someone would just host houses and provide food/shelter for a certain amount of money, now that would be a good thing do to. I think paying ~200$ - 300$ is affordable and no big risk if you want to give it a shot and live your dream. You can work to have 200-300$ / month and spend the rest working on your career.... well. Thats it from me :D
Interest comes from more than just 'best possible play'. Not everything can be the tip-top best league...A lot of interest comes from watching people, teams, regions, grow and become better. Korean leagues didnt become the best out of chance, or luck, or because koreans in general have a better work/practice ethic. They've had the longest history of stable, long running leagues. Which as produced the amazing training and practice environments they have today.
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On April 04 2013 18:26 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:22 Kim Hyuna wrote:
Please also factor in the numbers of viewers and people attending "LIVE" event especially for foreigners. With zero Korean players participate and the terrible skills set produced by NA only, i wondered who will want to host such event with minimum profits?
Korean's on foreign scene is there for a reason.
E-sports is not only about how good NA/EU vs KR. It's also about revenue and what the viewers want to see from world class players. us alone seems boring but i still think "no korean" tournaments would be great ... SURE it SEEMS rassistic but its more like a tournament thats only for silver-platin does diamonds say" rassistic" ? you can say no players "living in korea" would still make a handfull of koreans (polt etc) possibvle to play ... yes i think "players not living in korea" tournaments would be the best !
We can call the tournament 'Come get your free money here Polt'
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if foreigners can't beat koreans they don't deserve to win anything
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What i don't understand is why the people that only want to see korean players be so mad and vocal against the people(me included) that feel that some tournaments should be foreigner oriented.
You have the GSL, PL and GSTL and possibly more leagues incoming.. tournaments that i also see and follow and pay for them.
Don't we have the same right? I love to know who is the best NA player or best EU player.. i don't need to always see the same players since i follow them when they play at "home"
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Well personally I didn't really expect it before koreans started coming to the west, but I enjoyed MLG more when it was mostly foreigners(though I could do without the technical issues that happened frequently back then). It is a sad fact and not something I am proud of, but I think it is just that I feel there is more of a story there.
About the quality of games on pro level, a top foreigner vs top foreigner is still high enough for me, I think quality of the games just goes down if there is a skill gap between the players, not if they are playing at 2100 ELO vs 2500.
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On April 04 2013 18:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 17:58 norlock wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. You do know that the reason why korean player leave their korean team for an foreign team is because of the salary? I think you missed the entire point of my post. Every single Pro Sport rewards people who reach the minimum qualifications. If you can get through the door, you have a legitimate career. SC2 is no where near that point. You have the top 20 yearly earnings that can justify playing SC2 instead of flipping burgers, and everyone else that's either flat broke or whoring themselves out for hundreds of hours on Twitch. People keep ranting that Koreans should get all the money because Koreans are the best, and that everyone else should aspire to be as good as them. What happens in reality? If there is no money to be made outside of Korea, everyone simply packs up and leaves...or never even exists. Brood War proved that; having a massive scene in a single nation did absolutely nothing to foster the industry elsewhere. If you want the foreign scene to be competitive, the money has to be there first.
Completely agree with this.
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On April 04 2013 18:36 shell wrote:
What i don't understand is why the people that only want to see korean players be so mad and vocal against the people(me included) that feel that some tournaments should be foreigner oriented.
You have the GSL, PL and GSTL and possibly more leagues incoming.. tournaments that i also see and follow and pay for them.
Don't we have the same right? I love to know who is the best NA player or best EU player.. i don't need to always see the same players since i follow them when they play at "home"
On April 04 2013 18:40 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:10 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 04 2013 17:58 norlock wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. You do know that the reason why korean player leave their korean team for an foreign team is because of the salary? I think you missed the entire point of my post. Every single Pro Sport rewards people who reach the minimum qualifications. If you can get through the door, you have a legitimate career. SC2 is no where near that point. You have the top 20 yearly earnings that can justify playing SC2 instead of flipping burgers, and everyone else that's either flat broke or whoring themselves out for hundreds of hours on Twitch. People keep ranting that Koreans should get all the money because Koreans are the best, and that everyone else should aspire to be as good as them. What happens in reality? If there is no money to be made outside of Korea, everyone simply packs up and leaves...or never even exists. Brood War proved that; having a massive scene in a single nation did absolutely nothing to foster the industry elsewhere. If you want the foreign scene to be competitive, the money has to be there first. Completely agree with this.
Exactly this. I love GSL. I regularly stay up to ridiculous hours of the morning, local time, to watch Proleague live.
But I'd love to see things like this happening in NA and EU as well.
And I feel if they were to happen, then we'd see the overall skill, money, interest, amount of teams, and again, skill, of NA and EU players rise.
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On April 04 2013 18:29 Micromnky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:20 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 18:11 Micromnky wrote:On April 04 2013 18:00 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much. The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level. You're not going to get the teams, teamhouses and thus training environment in places other than Korea, if there isnt a stable league that they can compete in, outside of Korea. Thats why so many people like Catz, Incontrol, etc, are wanting a region specific league. We can keep going in circles. You had NASL which was not really packed with Koreans but NA/EU people. Was it a huge success? I don't really know about it. A regional league would have a chance to be build up if money is present and money will only be given if there is interest. Interest though comes from competition and the best play possible. Do you really think putting money into a scene that is not on a level that is worthy watching would attract viewers? Certainly not or not worth the investment. EG does have a team hose, Axiom does have a teamhouse. Maybe the Koreans do have a league they can compete in, because they did build their scene beforehand and over a time which the foreign scene missed out on. I'm not saying that its a bad thing to build up a foreign scene and leagues that are region locked but if you make one, make it like the GSL. Excluding a nation is NEVER a good thing, but even if you allow Koreans I think you are right that a region locked league would raise the level of play. The problem now is finding someone who is willing to put money into it to raise the league and with it the scene. In the end it doesn't really matter if 1-2 players not from the region win it. The chance alone to make a living off it will probably enough to attract players. That being said, the risk stays the same. In Korea you have team houses you can pay acertain amount and you have a place to live and food just like in MoW - the risk itself still says outside of Korea. If someone would just host houses and provide food/shelter for a certain amount of money, now that would be a good thing do to. I think paying ~200$ - 300$ is affordable and no big risk if you want to give it a shot and live your dream. You can work to have 200-300$ / month and spend the rest working on your career.... well. Thats it from me :D Interest comes from more than just 'best possible play'. Not everything can be the tip-top best league...A lot of interest comes from watching people, teams, regions, grow and become better. Korean leagues didnt become the best out of chance, or luck, or because koreans in general have a better work/practice ethic. They've had the longest history of stable, long running leagues. Which as produced the amazing training and practice environments they have today.
I didn't argue your point but I'm saying that even if you have those leagues the risk of being a progamer is high, because you most likely (especially rising players) cannot sustain themselves. Thats why I made the suggestion of raising those houses that provide food/shelter for a certain price. It does minimize the risk. Pair that with a region-locked league (not exluding any nation I would say, just like GSL) and you will have a rising scene and rising interest. I think you don't talk about a huge price money league to begin with, because no one would put insane amounts of money into the scene without having the biggest interest in their competition possible.
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On April 04 2013 18:49 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 18:29 Micromnky wrote:On April 04 2013 18:20 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 18:11 Micromnky wrote:On April 04 2013 18:00 Type|NarutO wrote:On April 04 2013 17:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
You want to talk about Professional Sports for comparison? Anyone on a pro sport team gets paid their salary, regardless of their teams results. They get full travel expenses paid for. They are allowed (and can get) personal sponsorships that can be worth the equivalent of their salaries.
Don't want to compare to a team sport? Okay then, losing in the first round of a Tennis Major tournament gives you $20,000. How about Golf? 70th place can earn you $10k. Ofcourse completely ignoring the fact that all those professionals have worked hard and gave up on other things to get where they are now. Do you really believe its an NA/EU problem that good players don't arise? Do you think sallary is the problem? I will tell you that Korean amateurs and practice partners do pay to live in team houses and practice there. Its not like Koreans would always earn much. The problem really is the lack of teams and team houses / training environment. Ofcourse if you have to worry about paying rent and food you are not going anywhere and you better don't take your chances at being a progamer, but if you have a team to back you up like EG / Teamliquid you potentially CAN have the right environment and be just as good. Ofcourse according to your region. For an instance, I don't believe a NA player could ever reach Korean level on NA, just because if he's the best on that server, he's missing the players to practice with that would increase his level. You're not going to get the teams, teamhouses and thus training environment in places other than Korea, if there isnt a stable league that they can compete in, outside of Korea. Thats why so many people like Catz, Incontrol, etc, are wanting a region specific league. We can keep going in circles. You had NASL which was not really packed with Koreans but NA/EU people. Was it a huge success? I don't really know about it. A regional league would have a chance to be build up if money is present and money will only be given if there is interest. Interest though comes from competition and the best play possible. Do you really think putting money into a scene that is not on a level that is worthy watching would attract viewers? Certainly not or not worth the investment. EG does have a team hose, Axiom does have a teamhouse. Maybe the Koreans do have a league they can compete in, because they did build their scene beforehand and over a time which the foreign scene missed out on. I'm not saying that its a bad thing to build up a foreign scene and leagues that are region locked but if you make one, make it like the GSL. Excluding a nation is NEVER a good thing, but even if you allow Koreans I think you are right that a region locked league would raise the level of play. The problem now is finding someone who is willing to put money into it to raise the league and with it the scene. In the end it doesn't really matter if 1-2 players not from the region win it. The chance alone to make a living off it will probably enough to attract players. That being said, the risk stays the same. In Korea you have team houses you can pay acertain amount and you have a place to live and food just like in MoW - the risk itself still says outside of Korea. If someone would just host houses and provide food/shelter for a certain amount of money, now that would be a good thing do to. I think paying ~200$ - 300$ is affordable and no big risk if you want to give it a shot and live your dream. You can work to have 200-300$ / month and spend the rest working on your career.... well. Thats it from me :D Interest comes from more than just 'best possible play'. Not everything can be the tip-top best league...A lot of interest comes from watching people, teams, regions, grow and become better. Korean leagues didnt become the best out of chance, or luck, or because koreans in general have a better work/practice ethic. They've had the longest history of stable, long running leagues. Which as produced the amazing training and practice environments they have today. I didn't argue your point but I'm saying that even if you have those leagues the risk of being a progamer is high, because you most likely (especially rising players) cannot sustain themselves. Thats why I made the suggestion of raising those houses that provide food/shelter for a certain price. It does minimize the risk. Pair that with a region-locked league (not exluding any nation I would say, just like GSL) and you will have a rising scene and rising interest. I think you don't talk about a huge price money league to begin with, because no one would put insane amounts of money into the scene without having the biggest interest in their competition possible.
I apologize then, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. I think the risk of entering pro-gaming will always be high, haha just like any other professional sport. I will admit I don't think a large prize money league is the best way to start building things like pro-gaming houses, and teams in a region. But I do think that there wasnt much of a chance of it beginning from humble beginnings anymore. While WCS isn't the ideal way to achieve this growth, I think it was a much needed jumpstart, if its region locked. GSL is kind of region locked...they dont prohibit non-koreans from entering the preliminaries. Its just excessively expensive for many players, in a low-money profession like pro-gaming, to travel to Korea for a long enough period of time to train, and give it a shot. Coupled with the fact that GSL is a long, sustained Off-line league, it makes it that much tougher.
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I don't care about nationality in Tournaments - I want to see pure, raw skill, dedication and a player i like crushing others.
Doesn't matter if he's from US, EU or KR. For everything else there's personal streams of players.
just my 2 cents
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Can someone explain me why Catz's opinions are taken so seriously? I'm farily new to the ESports, but I chechk his profile and he doesn't seem like an amazing player with lots of achievements. His team didn't seem to have that much succes (except for the koreans in it).
I'm baffled that his stream has 2-3k viewers, while better players have under 1k. Could someone please explain to me?
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EPT
