|
Bisutopia19307 Posts
Are you guys aware that Free and Pure were really good protosses? They actually were so good that they both went deep into individual leagues at the same time. In fact so amazing that they were in the semifinals of the OSL and MSL at the same exact time. These two fierce competitors of 2010 also had something in common. They both had Flash!
Pics: + Show Spoiler +
In individual leagues Flash is a crazy 81-37 vs Protoss with a 68.64% win ratio. To be even more specific to the time frame, Flash went undefeated against Protoss in the Hana Daetoo MSL and in the Korean Air OSL S1 which are two tournaments that ran at the same time. And the final stat I will give is that Flash went 21-4(84%) in the teamleague vP with an overall winning percentage on that year vs Protoss of 39-8 (82.98%).
What was there to say about Flash’s play at that time? Was he inspiring? Was he jaw droppingly genius? Did he blow our minds with a new ingenious strategy every time he matched up against protoss? Well, let’s take a blast to the past and see what our favorite TL writers had to say at the time.
by Arrian, Atrioc, motbob and pangshai -
 Flash vs  freeIs anyone else getting tired of Flash's TvP? Because I, for one, am tired of writing about it. For there to be any excitement or even purpose to writing a prediction requires that there is at least a slight chance that either player could win. Unfortunately, seeing as how Flash hasn't even come close to losing a game vs Protoss in centuries and Free nearly dropped a Bo5 to HiyA after getting nuked and wraith harassed - I cannot honestly say that any such chance exists. Flash is going to win this and the only question becomes how dominantly will he do it. We, and the MSL sponsors of course, can only hope that it is not the 3-0 easy mode beatdown that we saw delivered to Pure in the OSL. Luckily, Triathlon being in the map pool means Free has a good shot of taking at least one game assuming he doesn't fall to the myriad of timing attacks Flash has up his sleeve and actually manages to last to the late game, pull off his excellent late game macro heavy-expansion style play, and hopefully not do something stupid like put 7 stargates on 1 pylon and get it taken out. Flash 3-1.
Now, if you were a viewer of these two leagues when they were played then you remember the semifinals against Pure and Free very well. They were complete ROFLStomps. I remember gazing upon the screen, eating my mandatory dorritos at 5 am, listening to Roffles replay Karas butt dance over and over in every different color pair of pants, and thinking to myself that playing terran is just broken. During this time period it felt like protoss would never beat terran again. My poor Bisu was slumping vT and the standard PvT was Arbiter vs Science Vessel (not that I’m not complaining, every game was an epic 40 minutes).
However Flash always had to take things a step further. He had to make things unfair. Flash did something no other terran at the time had the balls to do. He not only put pressure, but literally punished any Protoss that opted to 12 nexus. Now at this point I will direct you to the semifinals recap of Flash vs Pure in the OSL. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124562 Here you can read the battle reports of these games. And also to quote flame wheel In his splendid post-game analysis using graphs, heyoka showed to us just how scary Flash's macro was: Flash was consistently outmacroing Pure (who was macroing quite well, in fact), breaking past the 20 supply deficit that Terran has compared to Protoss in the early- and mid-game.
So I’m near the end of my article for one reason alone. The vods for the Semifinal games are currently private. So unless someone can direct me to ones that work I can’t finish my analysis of Flash’s TvP from 2010. Basically the summary was going ot be how Flash was able to punish the 12 nex/ fast expanding protoss builds. Usually he did this by making a small vulture/marine push and bunkering up outside the natural expansion. And then when he forced the protoss into one base where he would crush them with one of his factory timing pushes.
Closing Notes: First of all, I am sad cause I wrote all this and didn’t check the vods first so sad face  . Second, Flash is a big bully and picks on little kids who just want to 12 nexus. Third, when I find the vods I will get the battle reports of them up and running and add to this OP or make a completely new one,
I have a lot on my mind with Brood War right now. I’m trying to think of other players that had dominant strategies that made match ups look broken. If anyone wants to recommend anything in that department I’m willing to do the research and write an article on it. I just wish vods weren't private right now. Anyway love you all <3
~Feel free to add your memories on these games.
|
IloveOov Made TvZ look pretty imbalanced for a while, with his insane win streak.
And then, JulyZerg!
|
Bisutopia19307 Posts
On October 12 2012 00:09 vOdToasT wrote:
IloveOov Made TvZ look pretty imbalanced for a while, with his insane win streak.
And then, JulyZerg!
Yeah, I feel like Oov isn't really remembered anymore like he used to. I would definitely enjoy analyzing his games in more depth. He also has the best and most emotional final edits that everyone should read before joining TL. I Loved Victory (Part One) and I Loved Victory (Part Two) which also makes it more intimidating to write about him.
|
I miss Broodwar. Fuck.
Anyway, I think that Flash's TvP took a dive near the end of BW simply because Jangbi began to exploit his siege lines. For some reason, I didn't see much of the unending line of tanks that was 2010/2011 Flash. The layering of tanks just wasn't there all that much. Also the lack of vultures kept biting him in the ass. I wish Flash had mixed it up a bit more vs Jangbi in the latter's first OSL. Flash vs Fantasy finals with both of them peaking would be amazing (then again, the Jangbi vs Fantasy finals were probably the best finals since... ever).
|
I remember Flash vs Free in Korean Air OSL 2 semi-final. Free was a beast, making Fantasy, who was also known for having good TvP, look like a clown in that game on Grand Line and beating Stork in Polaris Rhapsody with some ridiculous battles. If I remember correctly, Free was unbeaten in that OSL up until semi, where he was comprehensively beaten as Flash read him like a book. It went downhill for Free from game 1, but game 2 on Flight Dreamliner was most memorable to me. Free had a smooth transition into carriers, but when he insisted on fighting all those goliaths out in the open and lose all advantage he had, that was a sign that he was mentally beat.
|
I would love to see the end product of your article, cant wait! Also I remember Shady Sands or someone is going to do an article on Flash similar to Savior's God of the Battlefield. That would be fucking awesome.
|
Japan11286 Posts
Yeah I agree, FlaSh had TvP in the bag during that time. F$%*, all you can see back then was his siege tank line waiting to pound bases to &%^$. And what's worst was that Protoss strategy in all matchups was stagnating at the time IIRC. LOL, that bunkering tactic was the signature FlaSh move before the return of the Almighty.
Then it all fell apart during that fateful match in Pathfinder where JangBi, I think flanked FlaSh from three sides with storms roaring everywhere. Then JangBi abused him in the next match.
|
|
|
This thread is making me feel so nostalgic
Flash's TvP was so amazing to behold, everything he did worked and I can't remember a game I seen him 2fact
Amazing amazing times, I miss them sorely
|
I'll always remember when people were saying Flash was weak against Best and he 3-0'ed him in I think the NATE MSL. Such an inspired, intelligent player.
|
I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games.
|
Bisutopia19307 Posts
On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote:
I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games.
I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome.
Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3
|
On October 12 2012 02:24 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote:
I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games. I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome. Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3
Why don't you marry him then
|
On October 12 2012 02:24 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote:
I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games. I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome. Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3
Why do you need to go back to be in awe of him? I've been in awe of him for years now. Before Flash, I did not know a human brain can make decisions that fast that accurately.
But Flash is, at least for me personally, one of the worst entertainers in BW. I'd watch Hiya vs Free or UpMagic vs Free over any Flash vs Free vods.
|
sAviOr vs P cheese/P 1base into transition.
The issue is that you mentioned consistent strategies, and in the past few years it's been hard to find players who consistently abuse the same strategy to win. Even Flash looks like he's doing essentially the same thing, and yes, his objectives on the way to victory are somewhat similar, but many of his good games are so very different in terms of how the obstacle is laid out in front of him and how he defeats it so it's hard to say "he did this". In fact, this ability to map out different strategies according to basic tricks and tips is the reason Flash never really lost to the same strat twice.
Sure, in TvP vs a noob he'll default to 1-4fac 3base dual armory; in TvZ against a noob he'll do 3rax timing into slight map control while late-meching. But against a decent player? He'll out-think the shit out of them.
|
Bisutopia19307 Posts
On October 12 2012 03:11 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 02:24 BisuDagger wrote:On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote:
I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games. I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome. Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3 Why do you need to go back to be in awe of him? I've been in awe of him for years now. Before Flash, I did not know a human brain can make decisions that fast that accurately. But Flash is, at least for me personally, one of the worst entertainers in BW. I'd watch Hiya vs Free or UpMagic vs Free over any Flash vs Free vods.
Well I certainly can't be in awe of him now. Even his last season of BW games weren't what they used to be. But yeah, it seems like the less perfect players are the more fun ones. Hiya consistently had exciting games. But that could be just because he has to make more unique strategies in order ot give himself an advantage.
|
2010 was the best year Flash played. I remember when Terrans had trouble vZ at this time, going mostly mech coupled with weird strategies. He just played straight bio M&M and took TvZ to a whole new level.
|
On October 12 2012 00:21 Caladbolg wrote:
Flash vs Fantasy finals with both of them peaking would be amazing (then again, the Jangbi vs Fantasy finals were probably the best finals since... ever).
You meant EVER 2004 OSL, right? 
And why the vods are private again?
|
For about 5 months, Flash was 26-2 against Protoss. It got so bad that aside from the many threads here on TL, even the Korean commentators themselves theorycrafted about how Protoss could possibly hope to beat him. How to Beat Flash: Commentator Edition.
On October 12 2012 03:11 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 02:24 BisuDagger wrote:On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote:
I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games. I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome. Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3 Why do you need to go back to be in awe of him? I've been in awe of him for years now. Before Flash, I did not know a human brain can make decisions that fast that accurately. But Flash is, at least for me personally, one of the worst entertainers in BW. I'd watch Hiya vs Free or UpMagic vs Free over any Flash vs Free vods.
Even when Flash humiliated free with firebats? Well, it was hard to watch at the time because of free's utterly demoralized demeanor.
|
Flash's double armory build, although eventually figured out, was revolutionary vs carrier play. I think it was pre2010 though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Smix/koreanairosl2/flash.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/bwoslsemi2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/2jbnodt.jpg)
