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On October 12 2012 22:31 Caladbolg wrote:
Most amazing matchup for me in terms of pure skill and consistent "outplaying" of opponents is still Flash TvT. I wish Ver would analyze that in his FE.
His TvTs very rarely "outplaying". Many of them were quite close because Flash's early game in TvT was not as good as his mid and late game.
Hence most of them were comebacks
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Former flash anti-fan. It was an honour and privelege to see a bonjwa exist that late in the development of BW, where the marginal skill gaps between players were razer-thin. Would be interested in a thorough explanation (non-sc2 related) as to Flash's non-dominance in the tail-end of BW proscene. Gogo Final edit!
The advantages in early game TvTs went to whichever player that used better build order.
Proxy rax > 14cc > rax expand
Safe play > harass play (2 port/drops) > greedy play
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
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On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote:
Former flash anti-fan. It was an honour and privelege to see a bonjwa exist that late in the development of BW, where the marginal skill gaps between players were razer-thin. Would be interested in a thorough explanation (non-sc2 related) as to Flash's non-dominance in the tail-end of BW proscene. Gogo Final edit!
The advantages in early game TvTs went to whichever player that used better build order.
Proxy rax > 14cc > rax expand
Safe play > harass play (2 port/drops) > greedy play
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
It's really only TvP that Flash stopped being dominant in. Even till the end Flash's TvZ was invincible. Flash's TvT was as good as it always was except against Fantasy, and in my opinion it was Fantasy raising his game up rather than Flash getting worse.
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On October 12 2012 23:29 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2012 22:31 Caladbolg wrote:
Most amazing matchup for me in terms of pure skill and consistent "outplaying" of opponents is still Flash TvT. I wish Ver would analyze that in his FE. His TvTs very rarely "outplaying". Many of them were quite close because Flash's early game in TvT was not as good as his mid and late game. Hence most of them were comebacks
The most memorable ones were comebacks, but the bulk of that record consisted of games where Flash just consistently took better fights, made better decisions, and overall steamrolled the opposition. Very few were truly contested past the midgame point.
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On October 13 2012 01:07 red4ce wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote:
Former flash anti-fan. It was an honour and privelege to see a bonjwa exist that late in the development of BW, where the marginal skill gaps between players were razer-thin. Would be interested in a thorough explanation (non-sc2 related) as to Flash's non-dominance in the tail-end of BW proscene. Gogo Final edit!
The advantages in early game TvTs went to whichever player that used better build order.
Proxy rax > 14cc > rax expand
Safe play > harass play (2 port/drops) > greedy play
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5% It's really only TvP that Flash stopped being dominant in. Even till the end Flash's TvZ was invincible. Flash's TvT was as good as it always was except against Fantasy, and in my opinion it was Fantasy raising his game up rather than Flash getting worse.
Is there a detailed Fantasy vs Flash writeup? It seems to be that this is one of the more interesting pseudo rivalries after the Power Outage MSL killed JvF. I mean, Flash did beat him in 5 times in one day and then Fantasy was able to consistently take Flash down towards the end of BW.
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do a bisu vZ 2007-present article!
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I have the same view that several others expressed here. I was an anti-Flash fan so much in 2010. I HATED how he was autowin against Protoss. Truly hate. I rooted for him in the January 2010 MSL and OSL finals against Jaedong because most of 2009 was the Swarm Season and I was tired of Zerg dominance. But soon Flash just didn't lose anymore and I wanted him dethroned badly.
But looking back I can appreciate his display of utter skill more. While Fantasy was always my favourite Terran from 2008 onwards, Flash just played with perfection that's worthy of awe (although I find Fantasy's flawed strategies more entertaining for their uniqueness). Part of me even wanted Flash to beat Fantasy in the last OSL, as sort of a restoration of the God years (and to see JangBi spank him again).
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On October 13 2012 01:40 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 01:07 red4ce wrote:On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote:
Former flash anti-fan. It was an honour and privelege to see a bonjwa exist that late in the development of BW, where the marginal skill gaps between players were razer-thin. Would be interested in a thorough explanation (non-sc2 related) as to Flash's non-dominance in the tail-end of BW proscene. Gogo Final edit!
The advantages in early game TvTs went to whichever player that used better build order.
Proxy rax > 14cc > rax expand
Safe play > harass play (2 port/drops) > greedy play
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5% It's really only TvP that Flash stopped being dominant in. Even till the end Flash's TvZ was invincible. Flash's TvT was as good as it always was except against Fantasy, and in my opinion it was Fantasy raising his game up rather than Flash getting worse. Is there a detailed Fantasy vs Flash writeup? It seems to be that this is one of the more interesting pseudo rivalries after the Power Outage MSL killed JvF. I mean, Flash did beat him in 5 times in one day and then Fantasy was able to consistently take Flash down towards the end of BW.
I can't think of any article that encapsulates the entire history of FvF, but bittman wrote a great post right before their semifinals match, as well as the recap.
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I'd like to know what his winrate was vs his teammate when practicing was
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Yeh, that'd be interesting. And now that the BW progaming days are over they should release all practise replays. 
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On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote:
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
-.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2
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On October 13 2012 13:16 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote:
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5% -.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2
I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days.
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On October 13 2012 14:06 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 13:16 Scarecrow wrote:On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote:
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5% -.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2 I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days.
I'm fairly sure TvT was just as competitive in the last few years. Leta and Sea are right up there with the best TvT'ers ever.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51702 Posts
On October 13 2012 04:43 Holgerius wrote:Yeh, that'd be interesting. And now that the BW progaming days are over they should release all practise replays.
yeah I hope so too I suggested the same...
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On October 13 2012 14:21 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 14:06 Caihead wrote:On October 13 2012 13:16 Scarecrow wrote:On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote:
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5% -.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2 I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days. I'm fairly sure TvT was just as competitive in the last few years. Leta and Sea are right up there with the best TvT'ers ever.
Sea has been horrible the last two years. But yeah Leta, Skyhigh, Fantasy were all good TvTers
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United States10328 Posts
On October 14 2012 03:18 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 14:21 Scarecrow wrote:On October 13 2012 14:06 Caihead wrote:On October 13 2012 13:16 Scarecrow wrote:On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote:
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5% -.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2 I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days. I'm fairly sure TvT was just as competitive in the last few years. Leta and Sea are right up there with the best TvT'ers ever. Sea has been horrible the last two years. But yeah Leta, Skyhigh, Fantasy were all good TvTers
Light was ok-ish TvT as well...
and from 09-11, even when FBH was doing very poorly, he still somehow managed to make it close with Flash every time (except Flash won all of them )
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On October 14 2012 04:08 ]343[ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2012 03:18 sharkie wrote:On October 13 2012 14:21 Scarecrow wrote:On October 13 2012 14:06 Caihead wrote:On October 13 2012 13:16 Scarecrow wrote:On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote:
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5% -.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2 I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days. I'm fairly sure TvT was just as competitive in the last few years. Leta and Sea are right up there with the best TvT'ers ever. Sea has been horrible the last two years. But yeah Leta, Skyhigh, Fantasy were all good TvTers Light was ok-ish TvT as well... and from 09-11, even when FBH was doing very poorly, he still somehow managed to make it close with Flash every time (except Flash won all of them )
Maybe TvT just appeared alot closer in the pre TBLS era, or maybe I'm just viewing it through nostalgia.
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I used to dislike seeing Flash play tvp lol. I knew what he was doing was amazing, but just knowing that he'll prob just roll through the protoss made me a little sad everytime...
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On October 13 2012 14:06 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2012 13:16 Scarecrow wrote:On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote:
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5% -.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2 I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days.
Leta and Sea both have 60%+ TVT as well. All four of those players have around the same or higher win rates than Boxer, Midas and Iris did when all those players were playing together.
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Whoops, my whole post was the emphasize that flash's early game was his weakest point. Ughh, missed out words. Peace.
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EPT
