Are you guys aware that Free and Pure were really good protosses? They actually were so good that they both went deep into individual leagues at the same time. In fact so amazing that they were in the semifinals of the OSL and MSL at the same exact time. These two fierce competitors of 2010 also had something in common. They both had Flash!
In individual leagues Flash is a crazy 81-37 vs Protoss with a 68.64% win ratio. To be even more specific to the time frame, Flash went undefeated against Protoss in the Hana Daetoo MSL and in the Korean Air OSL S1 which are two tournaments that ran at the same time. And the final stat I will give is that Flash went 21-4(84%) in the teamleague vP with an overall winning percentage on that year vs Protoss of 39-8 (82.98%). What was there to say about Flash’s play at that time? Was he inspiring? Was he jaw droppingly genius? Did he blow our minds with a new ingenious strategy every time he matched up against protoss? Well, let’s take a blast to the past and see what our favorite TL writers had to say at the time.
by Arrian, Atrioc, motbob and pangshai -
Flash vs free Is anyone else getting tired of Flash's TvP? Because I, for one, am tired of writing about it. For there to be any excitement or even purpose to writing a prediction requires that there is at least a slight chance that either player could win. Unfortunately, seeing as how Flash hasn't even come close to losing a game vs Protoss in centuries and Free nearly dropped a Bo5 to HiyA after getting nuked and wraith harassed - I cannot honestly say that any such chance exists. Flash is going to win this and the only question becomes how dominantly will he do it. We, and the MSL sponsors of course, can only hope that it is not the 3-0 easy mode beatdown that we saw delivered to Pure in the OSL.
Luckily, Triathlon being in the map pool means Free has a good shot of taking at least one game assuming he doesn't fall to the myriad of timing attacks Flash has up his sleeve and actually manages to last to the late game, pull off his excellent late game macro heavy-expansion style play, and hopefully not do something stupid like put 7 stargates on 1 pylon and get it taken out.
Flash 3-1.
Now, if you were a viewer of these two leagues when they were played then you remember the semifinals against Pure and Free very well. They were complete ROFLStomps. I remember gazing upon the screen, eating my mandatory dorritos at 5 am, listening to Roffles replay Karas butt dance over and over in every different color pair of pants, and thinking to myself that playing terran is just broken. During this time period it felt like protoss would never beat terran again. My poor Bisu was slumping vT and the standard PvT was Arbiter vs Science Vessel (not that I’m not complaining, every game was an epic 40 minutes).
However Flash always had to take things a step further. He had to make things unfair. Flash did something no other terran at the time had the balls to do. He not only put pressure, but literally punished any Protoss that opted to 12 nexus. Now at this point I will direct you to the semifinals recap of Flash vs Pure in the OSL. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=124562 Here you can read the battle reports of these games. And also to quote flame wheel
In his splendid post-game analysis using graphs, heyoka showed to us just how scary Flash's macro was: Flash was consistently outmacroing Pure (who was macroing quite well, in fact), breaking past the 20 supply deficit that Terran has compared to Protoss in the early- and mid-game.
So I’m near the end of my article for one reason alone. The vods for the Semifinal games are currently private. So unless someone can direct me to ones that work I can’t finish my analysis of Flash’s TvP from 2010. Basically the summary was going ot be how Flash was able to punish the 12 nex/ fast expanding protoss builds. Usually he did this by making a small vulture/marine push and bunkering up outside the natural expansion. And then when he forced the protoss into one base where he would crush them with one of his factory timing pushes. Closing Notes: First of all, I am sad cause I wrote all this and didn’t check the vods first so sad face . Second, Flash is a big bully and picks on little kids who just want to 12 nexus. Third, when I find the vods I will get the battle reports of them up and running and add to this OP or make a completely new one, I have a lot on my mind with Brood War right now. I’m trying to think of other players that had dominant strategies that made match ups look broken. If anyone wants to recommend anything in that department I’m willing to do the research and write an article on it. I just wish vods weren't private right now. Anyway love you all <3
On October 12 2012 00:09 vOdToasT wrote: IloveOov Made TvZ look pretty imbalanced for a while, with his insane win streak.
And then, JulyZerg!
Yeah, I feel like Oov isn't really remembered anymore like he used to. I would definitely enjoy analyzing his games in more depth. He also has the best and most emotional final edits that everyone should read before joining TL. I Loved Victory (Part One) and I Loved Victory (Part Two) which also makes it more intimidating to write about him.
Anyway, I think that Flash's TvP took a dive near the end of BW simply because Jangbi began to exploit his siege lines. For some reason, I didn't see much of the unending line of tanks that was 2010/2011 Flash. The layering of tanks just wasn't there all that much. Also the lack of vultures kept biting him in the ass. I wish Flash had mixed it up a bit more vs Jangbi in the latter's first OSL. Flash vs Fantasy finals with both of them peaking would be amazing (then again, the Jangbi vs Fantasy finals were probably the best finals since... ever).
I remember Flash vs Free in Korean Air OSL 2 semi-final. Free was a beast, making Fantasy, who was also known for having good TvP, look like a clown in that game on Grand Line and beating Stork in Polaris Rhapsody with some ridiculous battles. If I remember correctly, Free was unbeaten in that OSL up until semi, where he was comprehensively beaten as Flash read him like a book. It went downhill for Free from game 1, but game 2 on Flight Dreamliner was most memorable to me. Free had a smooth transition into carriers, but when he insisted on fighting all those goliaths out in the open and lose all advantage he had, that was a sign that he was mentally beat.
I would love to see the end product of your article, cant wait! Also I remember Shady Sands or someone is going to do an article on Flash similar to Savior's God of the Battlefield. That would be fucking awesome.
Yeah I agree, FlaSh had TvP in the bag during that time. F$%*, all you can see back then was his siege tank line waiting to pound bases to &%^$. And what's worst was that Protoss strategy in all matchups was stagnating at the time IIRC. LOL, that bunkering tactic was the signature FlaSh move before the return of the Almighty.
Then it all fell apart during that fateful match in Pathfinder where JangBi, I think flanked FlaSh from three sides with storms roaring everywhere. Then JangBi abused him in the next match.
I'll always remember when people were saying Flash was weak against Best and he 3-0'ed him in I think the NATE MSL. Such an inspired, intelligent player.
I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games.
On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote: I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games.
I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome.
Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3
On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote: I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games.
I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome.
Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3
On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote: I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games.
I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome.
Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3
Why do you need to go back to be in awe of him? I've been in awe of him for years now. Before Flash, I did not know a human brain can make decisions that fast that accurately.
But Flash is, at least for me personally, one of the worst entertainers in BW. I'd watch Hiya vs Free or UpMagic vs Free over any Flash vs Free vods.
The issue is that you mentioned consistent strategies, and in the past few years it's been hard to find players who consistently abuse the same strategy to win. Even Flash looks like he's doing essentially the same thing, and yes, his objectives on the way to victory are somewhat similar, but many of his good games are so very different in terms of how the obstacle is laid out in front of him and how he defeats it so it's hard to say "he did this". In fact, this ability to map out different strategies according to basic tricks and tips is the reason Flash never really lost to the same strat twice.
Sure, in TvP vs a noob he'll default to 1-4fac 3base dual armory; in TvZ against a noob he'll do 3rax timing into slight map control while late-meching. But against a decent player? He'll out-think the shit out of them.
On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote: I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games.
I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome.
Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3
Why do you need to go back to be in awe of him? I've been in awe of him for years now. Before Flash, I did not know a human brain can make decisions that fast that accurately.
But Flash is, at least for me personally, one of the worst entertainers in BW. I'd watch Hiya vs Free or UpMagic vs Free over any Flash vs Free vods.
Well I certainly can't be in awe of him now. Even his last season of BW games weren't what they used to be. But yeah, it seems like the less perfect players are the more fun ones. Hiya consistently had exciting games. But that could be just because he has to make more unique strategies in order ot give himself an advantage.
2010 was the best year Flash played. I remember when Terrans had trouble vZ at this time, going mostly mech coupled with weird strategies. He just played straight bio M&M and took TvZ to a whole new level.
On October 12 2012 00:21 Caladbolg wrote: Flash vs Fantasy finals with both of them peaking would be amazing (then again, the Jangbi vs Fantasy finals were probably the best finals since... ever).
You meant EVER 2004 OSL, right? And why the vods are private again?
For about 5 months, Flash was 26-2 against Protoss. It got so bad that aside from the many threads here on TL, even the Korean commentators themselves theorycrafted about how Protoss could possibly hope to beat him. How to Beat Flash: Commentator Edition.
On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote: I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games.
I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome.
Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3
Why do you need to go back to be in awe of him? I've been in awe of him for years now. Before Flash, I did not know a human brain can make decisions that fast that accurately.
But Flash is, at least for me personally, one of the worst entertainers in BW. I'd watch Hiya vs Free or UpMagic vs Free over any Flash vs Free vods.
Even when Flash humiliated free with firebats? Well, it was hard to watch at the time because of free's utterly demoralized demeanor.
Looks cool. I started watching professional BW in late 2009 and thought FlaSh's play was amazing, so I decided to start rooting for him and the rest of KT Rolster.
I have the free vs FlaSh series VOD saved on my computer. I'm uploading it currently (my internet connection is on the slow side...) and then I'll PM you a DL link. It should be around 1 hr till it is finally uploaded. Finished and PM sent.
On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote: I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games.
I think that's how most flash antifans felt. I was tired of him winning everything. You really had no doubt he would win. And at that time the TL scene was growing and every new member only saw this same boring player when over and over again. But now years later, I actually go back and I'm just awed by his games. They are fantastic and beautiful works of art. I can't help but be impressed by him. The way he measured everything in his booth. His mom watching him as he won. I wish I could just give flash a hug. Protoss was indeed in a rut during these years. ZvP was ruled by 3 hatch hydra and it looked grim. With Flash wiping face, it looked like my favorite race would never come back. LeeSang was so fearsome.
Seeing Flash lose a game during his dominance meant that his opponent played a perfect game against him. It wasn't because he made mistakes. It rose the protoss talent to a new level just to have the skill to stay in game with him. So much pain and fun to think about at the same time. <3
Sniff. This quote makes me wanna cry a little inside
It never grated on me to see Flash win, because I'd been cheering for him ever since I saw the Klazart VODs of Flash cheesing Bisu out of the OSL Ro8 in 2007. I just thought of him as the "balls of steel/aboslute cojones" kid (Klazart's words) and starting watching his games more and more. It was really satisfying seeing him transform into a fantastic strategical player and win the GOM Invitation and the OSL. And then it sucked seeing him lose over and over in 2009 to random Zergs and wondering if he'd ever make it big again. So when 2010 rolled around I was totally ready to see the best BW player ever finally get his head in the right zone and dominate everything. I never felt the slighest twinge of remorse watching him win, except sometimes against Jaedong or Stork. Seeing that level of perfect play, and seeing how it raised the bar and made everyone else get better (seriously, look at Fantasy's play and Jaedong's 2011 ZvT) was one of the most satisfying parts of the BW pro scene for me. And KT's proleague wins were such amazing rollercoasters... 2010 was a fun time to be a Flash/KT fan.
Of course, I can understand how a lot of fans didn't like seeing their favorites getting crushed over and over again by Flash. Seeing Jaedong losing to him badly could be pretty depressing actually. But overall he just raised the bar for everyone and delivered some really really sick BW.
God I loved his "rivalry" with Best. Nukes, bunker rushes, and that dropship game on Fortress that pulled KT out of last place in PL... so good.
On October 12 2012 02:07 nbaker wrote: I'll always remember when people were saying Flash was weak against Best and he 3-0'ed him in I think the NATE MSL. Such an inspired, intelligent player.
I remember when people still thought Flash was weak against BeSt prior to the 2011 proleague finals.
On October 12 2012 02:07 nbaker wrote: I'll always remember when people were saying Flash was weak against Best and he 3-0'ed him in I think the NATE MSL. Such an inspired, intelligent player.
I remember when people still thought Flash was weak against BeSt prior to the 2011 proleague finals.
I guess that's why he was sent out for the ace match despite losing to Flash earlier in the series. I remember the outrage in the stream chat because Bisu didn't get sent out. At no point in that final game did I think Flash could lose.
Anyways as a Flash/KT fan, watching Flash dominate 2010 with his TvP was simply amazing. I never did get tired of him destroying every protoss he played. And Korean Air was great, but I can still remember how upset I felt when he lost to Effort.
flash basically made it so that if protoss didnt FE or 12 nex, terran would have a huge advantage. and if they did fe or 12 nex, flash would punish it. so broken
On October 12 2012 06:20 FlaShFTW wrote: flash basically made it so that if protoss didnt FE or 12 nex, terran would have a huge advantage. and if they did fe or 12 nex, flash would punish it. so broken
I actually rated scouted (which happened 99% of the time) 12 nex the worst opening vs Terran, especially Flash.
Since terran can either try and bunker rush the protoss or just get a free third. I am pretty sure Flash had more wins vs 12 nex than any other opening.
T_T I miss that era so bad. He really raised the bar for all progamers, and reached the absolute pinnacle of BW. The game has never been played at such a high level as Flash did during the God era.
That kind of dominance is what made so epic Jangbi's victory in the Jin Air OSL. Flash looked untouchable before, and well everybody remembered how unbelievable was his comeback after been down 0:1.
Flash always played rationally. No one else ever did this so well. Until Jangbi on pathfinder.
That was the difference between Flash vs Best on Circuit Breaker and Flash vs Jangbi on Gladiator: Best pretended to have good macro and got a "fast" 4-base when in reality, flash already had 4 bases when best had only 3. It was pathetic to see this so-called "macro monster" lose at his own game. Also, Flash vs Best on Fortress was absolutely terrifying. Best had absolutely no plan to counter Flash.
I think towards the end of BW he pretty much broke TvZ. Unless you beat him early with a 2 hatch or ling all in it was pretty much over with the bio -> mech transition and mass expanding, whilst often holding contains at both naturals.
I feel, more than anything else, the maps ended Flash's TvP reign. Good luck maintaing a huge win % on the likes of Gladiator/Pathfinder/Chain Reaction/Jade/Aztec.
Maps and SC2 ended Flash. Flash would probably still be #1 everything (or maybe #2 behind Jangbi in TvP/PvT) if it weren't for everything working against him.
No, the point is July ended his 25-0 TvZ streak mid-2004 and was the first Zerg to have a winning record against him. Savior also stomped oov, but that came later.
On October 12 2012 01:00 Dante08 wrote: I would love to see the end product of your article, cant wait! Also I remember Shady Sands or someone is going to do an article on Flash similar to Savior's God of the Battlefield. That would be fucking awesome.
Ver himself was supposedly working a Flash final edit. Man... I wish it was here now.
Thanks for the post, I can tell you kinda got screwed by the disappearance of the vods, it's really a shame. It brought back some good memories. Flash in Nov 2009, loses in PL to Best " My vP is kinda bad". Flash 2010 vP ~85%.
Most amazing matchup for me in terms of pure skill and consistent "outplaying" of opponents is still Flash TvT. I wish Ver would analyze that in his FE.
On October 12 2012 22:31 Caladbolg wrote: Most amazing matchup for me in terms of pure skill and consistent "outplaying" of opponents is still Flash TvT. I wish Ver would analyze that in his FE.
His TvTs very rarely "outplaying". Many of them were quite close because Flash's early game in TvT was not as good as his mid and late game.
Former flash anti-fan. It was an honour and privelege to see a bonjwa exist that late in the development of BW, where the marginal skill gaps between players were razer-thin. Would be interested in a thorough explanation (non-sc2 related) as to Flash's non-dominance in the tail-end of BW proscene. Gogo Final edit!
The advantages in early game TvTs went to whichever player that used better build order. Proxy rax > 14cc > rax expand Safe play > harass play (2 port/drops) > greedy play
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote: Former flash anti-fan. It was an honour and privelege to see a bonjwa exist that late in the development of BW, where the marginal skill gaps between players were razer-thin. Would be interested in a thorough explanation (non-sc2 related) as to Flash's non-dominance in the tail-end of BW proscene. Gogo Final edit!
The advantages in early game TvTs went to whichever player that used better build order. Proxy rax > 14cc > rax expand Safe play > harass play (2 port/drops) > greedy play
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
It's really only TvP that Flash stopped being dominant in. Even till the end Flash's TvZ was invincible. Flash's TvT was as good as it always was except against Fantasy, and in my opinion it was Fantasy raising his game up rather than Flash getting worse.
On October 12 2012 22:31 Caladbolg wrote: Most amazing matchup for me in terms of pure skill and consistent "outplaying" of opponents is still Flash TvT. I wish Ver would analyze that in his FE.
His TvTs very rarely "outplaying". Many of them were quite close because Flash's early game in TvT was not as good as his mid and late game.
Hence most of them were comebacks
The most memorable ones were comebacks, but the bulk of that record consisted of games where Flash just consistently took better fights, made better decisions, and overall steamrolled the opposition. Very few were truly contested past the midgame point.
On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote: Former flash anti-fan. It was an honour and privelege to see a bonjwa exist that late in the development of BW, where the marginal skill gaps between players were razer-thin. Would be interested in a thorough explanation (non-sc2 related) as to Flash's non-dominance in the tail-end of BW proscene. Gogo Final edit!
The advantages in early game TvTs went to whichever player that used better build order. Proxy rax > 14cc > rax expand Safe play > harass play (2 port/drops) > greedy play
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
It's really only TvP that Flash stopped being dominant in. Even till the end Flash's TvZ was invincible. Flash's TvT was as good as it always was except against Fantasy, and in my opinion it was Fantasy raising his game up rather than Flash getting worse.
Is there a detailed Fantasy vs Flash writeup? It seems to be that this is one of the more interesting pseudo rivalries after the Power Outage MSL killed JvF. I mean, Flash did beat him in 5 times in one day and then Fantasy was able to consistently take Flash down towards the end of BW.
I have the same view that several others expressed here. I was an anti-Flash fan so much in 2010. I HATED how he was autowin against Protoss. Truly hate. I rooted for him in the January 2010 MSL and OSL finals against Jaedong because most of 2009 was the Swarm Season and I was tired of Zerg dominance. But soon Flash just didn't lose anymore and I wanted him dethroned badly.
But looking back I can appreciate his display of utter skill more. While Fantasy was always my favourite Terran from 2008 onwards, Flash just played with perfection that's worthy of awe (although I find Fantasy's flawed strategies more entertaining for their uniqueness). Part of me even wanted Flash to beat Fantasy in the last OSL, as sort of a restoration of the God years (and to see JangBi spank him again).
On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote: Former flash anti-fan. It was an honour and privelege to see a bonjwa exist that late in the development of BW, where the marginal skill gaps between players were razer-thin. Would be interested in a thorough explanation (non-sc2 related) as to Flash's non-dominance in the tail-end of BW proscene. Gogo Final edit!
The advantages in early game TvTs went to whichever player that used better build order. Proxy rax > 14cc > rax expand Safe play > harass play (2 port/drops) > greedy play
Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
It's really only TvP that Flash stopped being dominant in. Even till the end Flash's TvZ was invincible. Flash's TvT was as good as it always was except against Fantasy, and in my opinion it was Fantasy raising his game up rather than Flash getting worse.
Is there a detailed Fantasy vs Flash writeup? It seems to be that this is one of the more interesting pseudo rivalries after the Power Outage MSL killed JvF. I mean, Flash did beat him in 5 times in one day and then Fantasy was able to consistently take Flash down towards the end of BW.
I can't think of any article that encapsulates the entire history of FvF, but bittman wrote a great post right before their semifinals match, as well as the recap.
On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote: Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
-.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2
On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote: Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
-.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2
I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days.
On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote: Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
-.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2
I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days.
I'm fairly sure TvT was just as competitive in the last few years. Leta and Sea are right up there with the best TvT'ers ever.
On October 13 2012 04:43 Holgerius wrote: Yeh, that'd be interesting. And now that the BW progaming days are over they should release all practise replays.
On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote: Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
-.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2
I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days.
I'm fairly sure TvT was just as competitive in the last few years. Leta and Sea are right up there with the best TvT'ers ever.
Sea has been horrible the last two years. But yeah Leta, Skyhigh, Fantasy were all good TvTers
On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote: Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
-.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2
I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days.
I'm fairly sure TvT was just as competitive in the last few years. Leta and Sea are right up there with the best TvT'ers ever.
Sea has been horrible the last two years. But yeah Leta, Skyhigh, Fantasy were all good TvTers
Light was ok-ish TvT as well...
and from 09-11, even when FBH was doing very poorly, he still somehow managed to make it close with Flash every time (except Flash won all of them )
On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote: Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
-.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2
I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days.
I'm fairly sure TvT was just as competitive in the last few years. Leta and Sea are right up there with the best TvT'ers ever.
Sea has been horrible the last two years. But yeah Leta, Skyhigh, Fantasy were all good TvTers
Light was ok-ish TvT as well...
and from 09-11, even when FBH was doing very poorly, he still somehow managed to make it close with Flash every time (except Flash won all of them )
Maybe TvT just appeared alot closer in the pre TBLS era, or maybe I'm just viewing it through nostalgia.
I used to dislike seeing Flash play tvp lol. I knew what he was doing was amazing, but just knowing that he'll prob just roll through the protoss made me a little sad everytime...
On October 13 2012 00:55 chongu wrote: Flash, I would say, is on par with every other terran player in TvT +/-5%
-.- please explain how you can get a 73% win ratio and the peak all-time ELO vs Terran (for any race) if you're on par with the rest of the field. His TvT was a thing of beauty right up until he started practicing SC2
I'm fairly sure the explaination is that every other A-team terran in the same era had bad vT other than fantasy and skyhigh. There isn't the same amount of crazy competitiveness between terran players like the nada-iloveoov-boxer-midas-iris days.
Leta and Sea both have 60%+ TVT as well. All four of those players have around the same or higher win rates than Boxer, Midas and Iris did when all those players were playing together.
Remember when Pure 12 nex'ed 3 games in a row against Flash and Flash still won 3-0 in Korean Air OSL Semi? Flash was like "do whatever you want, I'm still gonna win in the end" It felt so imba watching that.
On October 12 2012 02:12 baubo wrote: I really hated Flash at his peak simply because he would basically never make mistakes. RTS is suppose to be a game where players play at a high speed, making instantaneous decisions on the fly with limited information where you take risks. Flash wasn't that. He played more or less flawlessly. He knew exactly how much he could get away with through his macro-cheese. He knew exactly how to punish his opponent when they try the same thing. He knew exactly when to push out and where to engage, how to target fire his tanks, how to split his army just enough to attack multiple expansions. And it was boring.
Part of what makes watching BW fun is that when the player you root for is ahead, you are still sitting there watching, hoping he doesn't mess up, hoping he tries to expand on his lead into victory. Also, when the player you root for is behind, you are still enthralled because you hope he can catch up by exploiting his opponent's mistakes and make a comeback. But with Flash at his peak, that entertainment is gone. Sometimes when I just see Flash get away with 14CC, I pretty much think he's won. Because either that extra econ will compound exponentially and he rolls out with his 200/200 army and wins, or his opponent tries to catch up and get killed by some timing attack. It takes a lot of the fun out of watching games.
As a Flash fan, the games when he actually did make mistakes or questionable decisions probably stand out in my memory more than they do for Flash anti-fans (e.g., the finals against Bisu when he decided to backdoor Bisu and "contain" Bisu's main with a handful of tanks and rines above the mineral line, or when he took a fast third against M18M after failing to scout the 3 proxy gates, or the game against Dear with the barely hidden robo and canceled turrets). Those games were anything but standard or predictable and induced a lot of headscratching. But the recurring theme was that the Protoss player had to do some clever build to outsmart Flash. I found that to be great though, because it lent to much speculation about who was most likely to beat Flash and what a player needed to do to beat Flash. You had to really analyze his games to death and try to find some weakness in his seemingly impenetrable armor. The rarity of this occurrence made his losses all the more engaging and his wins more awe-inspiring.
Watching Flash in any matchup was so great to watch, but something about his TvP was truly painful for a Protoss fan to endure - for this unending period of games he seem in absolute, total control regardless of the choices his opponent made. Even with TvZ you had a rivalry and Jaedong's ability to win those big games (although Flash's TvZ at the end .. no Zerg fan walked out of that without a few scars on the soul) That best of five against Bisu with the trench-war on Katrina comes to mind especially, although I don't recall the event - at no point did you ever feel Bisu could win; and that's in spite of all the amazing moments he pulled. The response against 12 nexus every game someone tried it against Flash was fun too.
On one hand it obviously hurt like a truck as a Protoss player to see player after player go down to that - but Jangbi was able to get the last laugh, and the truth for me was watching Flash destroy was genuine mastery of the game in action. I'm guilty as charged of valuing a "perfect" game incredibly highly though.
On October 12 2012 01:00 Dante08 wrote: I would love to see the end product of your article, cant wait! Also I remember Shady Sands or someone is going to do an article on Flash similar to Savior's God of the Battlefield. That would be fucking awesome.
Ver himself was supposedly working a Flash final edit. Man... I wish it was here now.
Thanks for the post, I can tell you kinda got screwed by the disappearance of the vods, it's really a shame. It brought back some good memories. Flash in Nov 2009, loses in PL to Best " My vP is kinda bad". Flash 2010 vP ~85%.
On October 12 2012 01:00 Dante08 wrote: I would love to see the end product of your article, cant wait! Also I remember Shady Sands or someone is going to do an article on Flash similar to Savior's God of the Battlefield. That would be fucking awesome.
Ver himself was supposedly working a Flash final edit. Man... I wish it was here now.
Thanks for the post, I can tell you kinda got screwed by the disappearance of the vods, it's really a shame. It brought back some good memories. Flash in Nov 2009, loses in PL to Best " My vP is kinda bad". Flash 2010 vP ~85%.
In all seriousness, yes Ver is quite active on the SC2 side. He's in charge of The Terran Help Me Thread and is probably 2nd best among terrans who make significant and regular posts on TL, behind only avilo.
edit: actually ver seems to be doing better than avilo recently at least according to TLPD so I guess that makes him #1
On October 12 2012 01:00 Dante08 wrote: I would love to see the end product of your article, cant wait! Also I remember Shady Sands or someone is going to do an article on Flash similar to Savior's God of the Battlefield. That would be fucking awesome.
Ver himself was supposedly working a Flash final edit. Man... I wish it was here now.
Thanks for the post, I can tell you kinda got screwed by the disappearance of the vods, it's really a shame. It brought back some good memories. Flash in Nov 2009, loses in PL to Best " My vP is kinda bad". Flash 2010 vP ~85%.
In all seriousness, yes Ver is quite active on the SC2 side. He's in charge of The Terran Help Me Thread and is probably 2nd best among terrans who make significant and regular posts on TL, behind only avilo.
edit: actually ver seems to be doing better than avilo recently at least according to TLPD so I guess that makes him #1
ver > avilo, lol
anyhow i loved god of the battlefield, have been awaiting something similar for flash for ages. maybe if idra wants to take a crack at writing it, since he was a decentish BW terran?
On October 12 2012 01:00 Dante08 wrote: I would love to see the end product of your article, cant wait! Also I remember Shady Sands or someone is going to do an article on Flash similar to Savior's God of the Battlefield. That would be fucking awesome.
Ver himself was supposedly working a Flash final edit. Man... I wish it was here now.
Thanks for the post, I can tell you kinda got screwed by the disappearance of the vods, it's really a shame. It brought back some good memories. Flash in Nov 2009, loses in PL to Best " My vP is kinda bad". Flash 2010 vP ~85%.
In all seriousness, yes Ver is quite active on the SC2 side. He's in charge of The Terran Help Me Thread and is probably 2nd best among terrans who make significant and regular posts on TL, behind only avilo.
edit: actually ver seems to be doing better than avilo recently at least according to TLPD so I guess that makes him #1
ver > avilo, lol
anyhow i loved god of the battlefield, have been awaiting something similar for flash for ages. maybe if idra wants to take a crack at writing it, since he was a decentish BW terran?
There's already a final edit about The Ultimate Weapon though. Granted this only covered Flash's pre-God era but it's not like Flash's achievements would ever go overlooked on this website. Personally I'd like to see a final edit on the Three Kings/neo-Kings or the 6 dragons.
I don't think it's necessary to have someone as good as Idra to write a final edit. Writing skill, passion and perspective are all one really needs. Granted Idra is quite capable of in depth writing so with the right editor he probably could do it. I doubt it'll ever happen though given Idra's relationship with TL.
People are nutting their pants about his TvP right now but think back a handful of months earlier and his TvZ was ineffably good. His micro was better, macro was better, game sense was better, timing was better, decisions were better, strategy was better, anything was better.
People were so desperate that guardians became almost standard and as per usual, he countered with wraiths while suffering minimal damage.
It's so weird not having Flash games to watch anymore. It's not like previous dominant players, who eventually fell enough to not be worth playing in proleague. Flash probably had a year or more left of top-notch BW play (given his age), and we'll never see it.
Flash was so beast in all three match ups, and also so amazingly versatile. Just a joy to watch him play at such a high level of skill and finesse, I only hope we can someday witness the same level of performance and excellence in SC2.
Doesn't matter if you were a Flash fan or not, a KT Rolster fan or not, if you were a fan of BW, you had a special appreciation and a soft spot for Flash, especially now that the pro BW scene is all but over.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Smix/koreanairosl2/flash.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/bwoslsemi2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/2jbnodt.jpg)
Flash vs 
free
. Second, Flash is a big bully and picks on little kids who just want to 12 nexus. Third, when I find the vods I will get the battle reports of them up and running and add to this OP or make a completely new one,
