[D] TvZ Metagame patch1.4.3.2

Gyro_SC2

Canada540 Posts

June 19 2012 17:13 GMT

What is the Metagame after the new patch ?

Lately, there is talk of Zerg being OP.
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TLPD Winrates May 2012
I can give you TvZ from the GSL up and downs, the GSL qualifiers, and the GSTL if that helps?

There have been 112 games total played, Zerg have won 83 of them while Terran have won 29, giving Zergs about a 74% win rate. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343147

MMA interview
Q: The balance talks of Starcraft 2 is hot these days, as a TvZ master, what do you think about Terran nowadays and the TvZ/P matchup?
A: (laughs) Do you want "official talks" or real stuff? (Interviewer: anything you want.) Then I have to say the latest changes are really balance breaking.

Q: So from a Terran perspective, what Terran changes are you expecting?
A: Nah Zerg is really being buffed a lot, I don't really expect a Terran buff, just don't nerf us too much (laughs). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345917

There’s a reason I aimed only for third place. Lately, my win rate for TvZ and TvP are only at 30% or so. The only reason a Zerg or Protoss loses in a broadcasted match is because they don’t play their best.

-IMMvP
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344906

The current problem and solution
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1. The new queen range makes zerg very safe again any early terran pressure. It allows greedy play for the zerg and macro/drones advantage.
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Terran should make more allin again the zerg ! Zerg players are too overconfident about early game and If more terrans start playing allin strategy then the zergs will have to play less greedy.

Blizzard thinks terran allins are too good so they buff queens. You advise to all in more... metagame ownage :D

other exemple of allin/ way to punish greedy zerg, 4rax+1factoryhellion : http://drop.sc/200724 (with my allin, I win 90% of my tvz because all the zerg make only drone and queen) (In this game at 8min the zerg has 5 queens, 4zerglings, 43 drones and 3 bases, seriouly if you don't allin this you are already behind)(master level)

2. Zerg can build a ton of queen, still be safe, and spread creep like mad. Zerg gain vision, speed, and block the 4 of the terran.
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In the midgame more terrans should make one raven.

Also, if you have a techlab on your starport you can have a banshee. 1 banshee+1raven can be very good for removing the creep and with PDD you are protected from the queens.

[image loading]

It is possible to get a fast banshee and/or fast raven using variations on ForGG's build or MMA's Hellion/Banshee opening.

The raven is a huge investment??
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Its not like one single raven (you dont have to suicide it) will delay your tech more than banshee + cloak when you only use one. And its not half of a coinflip to make good use of the raven. Also the raven saves up "anti-creep scans" making more room for mules and thus MINERAL income

3. With the overlord speed, its more easy for the zerg to see what is coming (like drop and push) and keep his overlords alive from the marines.
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Build 1 viking and remove all the overlords hiding on high ground. [image loading]

Other solutions ?
I'll update this section when people got new ideas
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-Ghosts do 50 damage to queens now (snipe change) so maybe someone can come up with an early to midgame ghost push to repel creep and lower queen numbers.

-Just make more and more medivacs so that your marines and marauders are very cost efficient. Like 12 or 14 medivacs.

-MMM all the way
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http://blip.tv/day9tv/bomber-t-vs-ostojiy-z-g1-red-bull-battlegrounds-austin-group-c-day-1-6173789
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344554

-In my opinion, most players can't because they're going for 3 OCs which is kinda like the in between between greed and safe play. It dies to a lot of stuff but it doesn't let you outmacro Zerg greed.
4 OCs is greedy and with quadruple scv production and 4 mules you'll either die to a bust or win :D... or die to extreme zerg greed.+ Show Spoiler +

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Griffith_4OC_(vs._Zerg)

-QxC bunker, creep contain, http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1516/The-QXC-Bunker-A-New-Way-to-Contain-Creep-in-TvZ/
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-fast three base with hellion banshee pressure
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251694&currentpage=274#5463

-PF expand vs hatch first zerg. + Show Spoiler +

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347238

-lategame BC(YAMATO)+raven (HSM)+ghost transition(EMP) , with nuke harass.
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http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDIyMTI2NTI4.html
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gstls2/vod/67576/?set=6&lang=

-MECH http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308972

-fast third, banshee harass and ultra fast BC (around 12-14min)

-6 rax allin
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6rax all in is a good way to abuse greedy zerg players if you just proxy the 5 raxes. If he scouts with a drone (which is rare these days), you can fake 1 gas to make him think you're going hellions (most zergs defend hellions with only queens so they won't get any speedlings) or you can either fake 2 gas but that's a bit more obvious and some zergs react to 2port banshee by doing a timing push with roaches and that's not what you want. You want to arrive at his base with 20'ish marines and a few scv's at 7:00 and find 4 queens + 1 spine and a shit ton of drones. Zergs play so greedy these days that they think they can deny any all in with just 4+ queens.

-Attitude Terran needs now:
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OK, this new game called Starcraft 2 just came out on May 10th 2012.
This is a game on Super Nintendo.
Hence, there is no patch, no balance change, no nothing in future.
Let's play this game, and demolish nasty aliens called Zerg and Protoss.
Glad to see OP and some posts go this way.

Another way to look at it:
OK, this game is Blizzard dictatorship.
There is no republican nor democrat to choose from by means of voting.
I have no say.
Play by the rule imposed on me, or I get executed.

ProfSc

United States51 Posts

June 19 2012 19:21 GMT

One thing that I've noticed, just as a meching Diamond Terran, is that Zerg players tend to go up to 4/5 queens, then stay on that until after they put down their third. This opens up interesting timings for hellion harass into the natural or main, as the majority of the queens will be spreading creep/on their way to inject the third. It's probably more of a subjective choice rather than a strategic one, but I've been able to punish fast tech/fast expanding zerg with 6-8 hellions roasting 15-20 drones (a small sample size, but possibly significant, I haven't done the stats analysis). I'll upload replays later, as I'm currently at work.

However, my feeling is that as more terrans begin to utilize pure mech or pure bio in tvz, more interesting timing gaps will come to light. If you think about it, pure modern mech (as in hellions/banshees/viking before the maxed out doom push) and pure bio are really mobile compositions. Utilizing this mobility is key. All in all, it should be interesting to see Terran players adapt away from offensive tank pushes (tanks definitely still have a place in holding the roach/bling/ling all-in) towards pure mech or pure bio.

Cure2

13 Posts

June 19 2012 19:29 GMT

I don't think there is enough time to get a banshee and raven in the mid game. Zergs are hitting with faster and faster hive timings now and can you really afford to halt viking and medivac production for a banshee and a raven? I'm not so sure.

I think this queen change might have been designed for helping against the HotS battle hellion but has been placed in WoL for some reason.

RedMosquito

United States280 Posts

June 19 2012 19:36 GMT

terran needs a late game and then the problem should be fixed. every race should be relatively balanced at all stages of the game. i dont buy this asymetric balance crap.

ProfSc

United States51 Posts

June 19 2012 19:40 GMT

It is possible to get a fast banshee and/or fast raven using variations on ForGG's build or MMA's Hellion/Banshee opening. Further, you don't absolutely need medivacs for mech in the same way you do for bio...

Edit: Changed "spoiler" to "quote."

itsMAHVELbaybee

292 Posts

June 19 2012 19:52 GMT

I've seen people mess around with ravens, but they are still a huge investment, may slow bio/mech upgrades.

I've been experimenting with opening 1 rax FE into 4 rax marine pressure with fast combat shield. Offers a bit more muscle than opening hellions, however I'm not sure of every possible opening the zerg will opt for and what zerg can do in response to 4 rax pressure(ling/bane would definitely be a problem). Against 3base delayed lair it does fairly well. After you pressure with fast combat shields you can follow up with fast medivacs or double upgrades. Delays your 3rd CC severely though cause you have to keep up production on 4 rax.

Cure2

13 Posts

June 19 2012 19:52 GMT

On June 20 2012 04:40 ProfSc wrote:

It is possible to get a fast banshee and/or fast raven using variations on ForGG's build or MMA's Hellion/Banshee opening. Further, you don't absolutely need medivacs for mech in the same way you do for bio...

Edit: Changed "spoiler" to "quote."

So mech is definitely the answer then? I agree that medivacs aren't required for a mech play unless you fancy dropping hellions so in that sense you could be building ravens much earlier than normal. I've had varying degrees of success with mech in the past but I don't like being too passive against a Zerg that realizes he can power drones for a while because my army won't be built anytime soon.

Ghosts do 50 damage to queens now (snipe change) so maybe someone can come up with an early to midgame ghost push to repel creep and lower queen numbers.

phiinix

United States1169 Posts

June 19 2012 20:13 GMT

As a mech player for probably around 3 months or so, I haven't really noticed too huge of a difference in my game flow. As most people acknowledge, the queen problem isn't the late game per say, it's that the early and midgame defense is so strong that it makes the terran late game weaker. When you play mech, you're sorta aiming for the late game anyhow, and creep isn't that big of a problem, so the effects aren't nearly as profound. It should go without saying that mech builds are not nearly as discovered as marine tank builds are.

If nothing is changed, we may start to see traditional marine tank start to fade away as a core strategy just as muta ling bling did. They're both great strategies and can work, but often feel like they rely on your opponent making a mistake, or by outplaying them really bad.

HeroMystic

United States1217 Posts

June 19 2012 20:14 GMT

On June 20 2012 04:52 Cure2 wrote:

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I've been thinking about a Ghost push, but the problem is Ghosts are a big investment and you can easily kill Queens/Creep with a hitsquad of Marines.

The Ghosts need to be able to do more than take out Queens to be worth the opportunity cost.

thezanursic

5484 Posts

June 19 2012 20:16 GMT

#10

I'm only a diamond terran, but my win ratio has been about 95% in TvZ latellyand I've actually beaten people way above my league even High masters and the only adjustment I've made is having 12 OR MORE medivacs. I was seriously supprised how tough marines are if you have this many medivacs. It just destroys everything that doesn't include Brood lords and if he techs for that you obviously gotta go raven.

In my eyes Ultralisks are unviable.

Snowbear

Korea (South)1925 Posts

June 19 2012 20:27 GMT

#11

I saw david kim also suggesting that terrans should use a raven in the mid game. There is 1 thing he and the others who give this advice, forget: a raven is 200 gas. Every terran knows that gas is a problem in the midgame. You need to push out before broodlords are out, and by getting a simple raven, you delay:
- medivacs
- tanks
- upgrades
- extra factories

Terrans need a ton of gas early-mid game:
- stim
- combat shield
- tanks
- siegetech
- factory
- startport
- medivacs
- bio upgrades
- tank +1 upgrade
- armory
- reactors

By cutting into these, your push before hive will be weaker + a raven isn't really helping in fights vs ling bling infestor.

KirA_TheGreaT

France204 Posts

June 19 2012 20:34 GMT

#12

Getting a raven... just make it cheaper and then maybe we'll think about it.

Cheerio

Ukraine3178 Posts

June 19 2012 20:55 GMT

#13

I kinda like your advice.

1. Blizzard thinks terran allins are too good so they buff queens. You advise to all in more...
3. Ovi speed is buffed. You advise to make 1 viking to kill stationary ovies on the high ground...

Aristotle7

United States120 Posts

June 19 2012 21:04 GMT

#14

1 viking is a huge investment in the early game. That's 175 gas total, that could have gone into almost 2 factories or 2 bio upgrades.

1 viking screams to Zerg: "Hi, I went 1/1/1." So much for hiding the builds.

Andreas

Norway214 Posts

June 19 2012 21:17 GMT

#15

Marine all-ins are weaker than ever thanks to the ease of overlord scouting. Zerg could hold most all-ins before the Queen buff if they scouted it coming, and now it's even harder because Queens are extremely strong against un-upgraded marines.

I was a big fan of the banshee+raven for a while, but as Zergs started going 6 queens it just started becoming completely useless. If you get 2 banshees before the raven your raven will appear just as infestors or mutalisks are out.

Making 1 Viking is a decent move but by the point the Viking is out killing overlords, Zerg will be transitioning to speedlings for scouting anyway.

All in all, I don't think your solutions are any good at all.

tehemperorer

United States2183 Posts

June 19 2012 21:21 GMT

#16

Don't agree with the solutions: resources are all tied up. I don't think it's wise to advise a terran who happens to have a starport/reactor to lift, switch to tech lab, build a raven, then lift and switch back.

Insoleet

France1806 Posts

June 19 2012 21:24 GMT

#17

Just make more and more medivacs so that your marines and marauders are very cost efficient. Like 12 or 14 medivacs.

Thats what did MKP against Stephano, and he outplayed him.
Against DRG he built only 4-6 medivacs... DRG raped him.

Charon1979

Austria317 Posts

June 19 2012 21:48 GMT

#18

On June 20 2012 05:27 Snowbear wrote:
I saw david kim also suggesting that terrans should use a raven in the mid game. There is 1 thing he and the others who give this advice, forget: a raven is 200 gas. Every terran knows that gas is a problem in the midgame. You need to push out before broodlords are out, and by getting a simple raven, you delay:
- medivacs
- tanks
- upgrades
- extra factories

Terrans need a ton of gas early-mid game:
- stim
- combat shield
- tanks
- siegetech
- factory
- startport
- medivacs
- bio upgrades
- tank +1 upgrade
- armory
- reactors

By cutting into these, your push before hive will be weaker + a raven isn't really helping in fights vs ling bling infestor.

Interesting... I see even high level Terran players floating 800 gas at the 12 minute mark. Do they all have macro issues or is it more like "Marine, marine, marine, marine, a few tanks, upgrades for marines, marines marines,... is not that gasheavy as you want to pretend here?
Its not like one single raven (you dont have to suicide it) will delay your tech more than banshee + cloak when you only use one. And its not half of a coinflip to make good use of the raven. Also the raven saves up "anti-creep scans" making more room for mules and thus MINERAL income

EnE

417 Posts

June 19 2012 21:55 GMT

#19

@Above:

Source or bullshit. If you float gas at 12 mins, then a high level terran WOULDNT GET THE 3RD OR FOURTH REFINERY.

So, whether terran is starved for gas midgame or not, I think you're still talking shit since not floating gas is as easy as not mining too much gas.

Scila

Canada1849 Posts

June 19 2012 21:58 GMT

#20

MMM all the way. Ride the broken train until the wheels fall off and Blizzard finally gives us decent units outside of MMM.

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[D] TvZ Metagame patch1.4.3.2

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