EPT[D] TvZ Metagame patch1.4.3.2 - Page 16
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Jaxtyk
United States600 Posts
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ncsix
1370 Posts
maybe the solution really requires some out of the box thinking, and the suggestions here (Marauder/Hellion / Ravens / 3OCs) are too obvious. Just for example. How about some kind of early creep contain with bunkers and rines, while getting hellions (stopping ling runbys and having the bunkers being totally overwhelmed), and using gas mainly for starport tech, maybe a critical upgrade timing with building armour / hi-sec can reduce baneling busts etc.. vs P - A T Bio Army is much more mobile, but isn't really the same with TvZ, its a fact that T is known for its defensive abilities so maybe it should be used beyond the turtling. (p.s. don't flame me, I'm just suggesting possibilities - I'm a Mid Zerg player) | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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ncsix
1370 Posts
There's probably more to the building armor upgrade and hi-sec then meets the eye. T players might want to try defensive builds that allows 3 base. These upgrades also sync well with say.. MMM+ Raven support. | ||
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PauseBreak
United States270 Posts
Actually, if you want to easily get to Platinum, Diamond, Masters (and a few exceptions), GM league you just stop playing Terran and play as Zerg. The metagame right now, you can have one hand on the keyboard and the other eating chips while playing as Zerg because they attack, defend, and win games by hitting the 'a' key and left clicking. User was warned for this post | ||
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DeathScythe
United States15 Posts
That said, how is the volatility of biomech? could you constantly sink minerals into a reactored factory, and then quickly transition back into MMM as the game progresses? Feign a Mech composition, I know many Z over-react to seeing more then 6 (well really 4) helions. | ||
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WaKai
Canada88 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On July 09 2012 12:29 DeathScythe wrote: ^ Lol please try to stay on topic,There are many people who are successful at TvZ. That said, how is the volatility of biomech? could you constantly sink minerals into a reactored factory, and then quickly transition back into MMM as the game progresses? Feign a Mech composition, I know many Z over-react to seeing more then 6 (well really 4) helions. You can actually just keep making Blue Flame Hellions and get armor upgrades for them, as they always 100% 2-shot Zerglings when they have Blue-Flame. They do however take 3 shots to kill a Drone unless you're at +1 attack to +0 armor, or +2 vs less than +3. You always 2-shot Drones with +3 attack. So, it's either Hellions living longer or killing more Drones. The second option rewards multitasking, and the first is a 'safe' option that is better in direct engagements. The reason I think MMMH can work is because Hellions are mobile, Hellions do loads of damage to the main tank for the Zerg army,(before/besides Ultralisks) letting the MM DPS the Banelings and split more effectively against Infestors,, and can harass Drones extremely effectively and deploy twice as quickly compared to Marines, and Marauders take 5 shots to kill a Drone on equal upgrades. | ||
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WaKai
Canada88 Posts
On July 09 2012 12:29 DeathScythe wrote: ^ Lol please try to stay on topic,There are many people who are successful at TvZ. That said, how is the volatility of biomech? could you constantly sink minerals into a reactored factory, and then quickly transition back into MMM as the game progresses? Feign a Mech composition, I know many Z over-react to seeing more then 6 (well really 4) helions. I do this a lot, but win me probably a game out of 10 because the zerg thought i was meching and took the rest of the map. (opened hellion banshee in to mass bio). But it's hard to sink money into bio mech because the upgrades don't sink together. Maybe if they did, it would help terran a lot in tvz. As yes, hellion+marine+mardauder medivac would be very lethal. But transitioning constantly is not worth it as you loose so much production time. How tvz works right now is denieing the zerg scouting and forcing him to fuck up. It's kinda of like you have to hide in a corner and wait for him to walk by and say BOO! Basically how I've won my games. I would be really interested to see an a terran ai with perfect micro vs a zerg ai with perfect macro and scouting. Be interesting to see who comes out on top. | ||
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WaKai
Canada88 Posts
On July 09 2012 12:41 Fencar wrote: You can actually just keep making Blue Flame Hellions and get armor upgrades for them, as they always 100% 2-shot Zerglings when they have Blue-Flame. They do however take 3 shots to kill a Drone unless you're at +1 attack to +0 armor, or +2 vs less than +3. You always 2-shot Drones with +3 attack. So, it's either Hellions living longer or killing more Drones. The second option rewards multitasking, and the first is a 'safe' option that is better in direct engagements. The reason I think MMMH can work is because Hellions are mobile, Hellions do loads of damage to the main tank for the Zerg army,(before/besides Ultralisks) letting the MM DPS the Banelings and split more effectively against Infestors,, and can harass Drones extremely effectively and deploy twice as quickly compared to Marines, and Marauders take 5 shots to kill a Drone on equal upgrades. Never knew that 0-0 hellions could 2 shot 3-3 lings. I'll try that out, thanks. Maybe replacing 2 of the 8 rax with a reactored factory would work well. | ||
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DeathScythe
United States15 Posts
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NaEjeOn88
United States134 Posts
A raven?...200 gas nuff said.... Viking to deny ovie scouting speed? A viking is simply not enough due to the fact that it shoots slow as hell and ovie will most likely get there in time (early game which most players dont even have a viking by then or port). And most of the time if u do go for a port ure vulnerable to more all ins. As far as im concerned none of this is useful and i dont feel more confident in tvz | ||
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NaEjeOn88
United States134 Posts
On July 09 2012 12:16 PauseBreak wrote: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/am/1/all Actually, if you want to easily get to Platinum, Diamond, Masters (and a few exceptions), GM league you just stop playing Terran and play as Zerg. The metagame right now, you can have one hand on the keyboard and the other eating chips while playing as Zerg because they attack, defend, and win games by hitting the 'a' key and left clicking. User was warned for this post I've recently switched to zerg, i agree haha. Thats hilarious | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On July 09 2012 12:43 WaKai wrote: Oops, I just read that and realized I'm wrong on the math. You actually need +1 attack to be effective against +3 armor Zerglings, as +1 gives +2 damage, and you're 3 damage short on killing the Zergling if you're at +0 and he's at +3. I think after +1 armor you should probably get +1 weapons in this case, then resume armor upgrades.Never knew that 0-0 hellions could 2 shot 3-3 lings. I'll try that out, thanks. Maybe replacing 2 of the 8 rax with a reactored factory would work well. Anyway, it's nice for mineral-heavy builds if you get a Reactored Factorie for production instead of 2 Reactored Barracks as it costs 150 Minerals less and only 50 Gas more to build said Reactored Factory instead of two Reactored Barracks, letting you build stuff earlier, as well as reduced production time building the Reactor and mining time lost since it's only one Factory and only one Reactor you're building!  | ||
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WaKai
Canada88 Posts
On July 09 2012 13:01 Fencar wrote: Oops, I just read that and realized I'm wrong on the math. You actually need +1 attack to be effective against +3 armor Zerglings, as +1 gives +2 damage, and you're 3 damage short on killing the Zergling if you're at +0 and he's at +3. I think after +1 armor you should probably get +1 weapons in this case, then resume armor upgrades. Anyway, it's nice for mineral-heavy builds if you get a Reactored Factorie for production instead of 2 Reactored Barracks as it costs 150 Minerals less and only 50 Gas more to build said Reactored Factory instead of two Reactored Barracks, letting you build stuff earlier, as well as reduced production time building the Reactor and mining time lost since it's only one Factory and only one Reactor you're building! indeed! The math seemed wrong, that's why i was questioning it, but +1 for hellions is not that bad, for sure the extra roughly 250 can be spent on a extra cc+orbital (stop 2 rax from producing 1 round of units) This could work very well. | ||
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Toastie.NL
Netherlands232 Posts
I'll end up with 3/3 Bio, 1/0 Mech, 3/3 Air very fast and have a easier transition to skyterran! My infrastructure consists off 1 techrax, 4 reactorrax, 1 reactorfact, 1 techfact grabbing blueflame and a reactorport. After the third, I switch the reactor and tech so I have 3 techports, 2 reactorfacts and some additional barracks eventually! | ||
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kme
Serbia176 Posts
Due to the way zerg race works, the best strategy in theory would be the one that constantly forces them to build units AND allows you trade cost efficiently with said units. Bonus points if they need multiple tech paths as well. The forcing units part is easy, you just need to be aggressive or threaten aggression. Cost efficient trading is the tricky part. When defending terrans have it covered. Walls, siege tanks, bunkers and PF all help you trade with huge efficiently. But, as noted at start, defending is not enough, you need to be aggressive. The problem with that is that a zerg who expects it and dedicates enough can always get superior numbers and wipe your attack with minimal losses. This allows him the opportunity for counter attack or gets him a huge army lead that prevents further aggression / contain. Now to avoid this situation, you have to options: First option is to have a really good gamesense / scouting / maphack so you know exactly when it's safe to be aggressive. If he made enough units to crush your attack, you don't have to attack at all, the damage to his economy is already done. A strategy with perfect scouting would be... well perfect. Probably not possible though. First you would need map control somehow, otherwise their units could be anywhere on the map. After that the options I see are floating buildings, air units and scans. Maybe these can be enough if timed correctly, or maybe not, theorycrafting can only go so far. The second option is to use units with an escape mechanism. Speed (reapers, hellions), flight (medivac viking, banshee, raven), cloak (ghost, banshee). Any kind of free damage is obviously good, but the goal is to have efficient trading so not everything has to be one of the above. Anyway, the speed approach is basically only viable before midgame so this leaves us flight and cloak for most of the game (still, some early attack with hellion marine can potentially be good). Later, If they go infestor the flight option is very viable. If they go muta it may be worth it to battle for air control? (raven, viking owns muta corrupter) It would shut down broodlord transition too and helps against creep spread. Cloak is also underrated, spores can be avoided/killed, overseers are slow and can't be everywhere. Ghosts and banshees can do some serious damage if left unchecked. It should also be noted that zergs most scary units are gas intensive, if you can trade minerals for gas it can still be cost efficient even if it isn't efficient in supply sense. I feel like terran is the most strategic race, you need to be one step ahead all the time or you will simply be stuck in a powerless position. Every terran strategy should be designed with a "what after" mentality. This is also why I find them most fun, it feels really good when your contingency plan works . [/theorycrafting]Eh, maybe this can at least inspire someone. | ||
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