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On July 08 2012 07:19 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast. Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player). A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec. Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick. One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good. TvZ was never "coinflippy" before the patch, in fact it was by far the most balanced (and most fun to watch IMO) match-up, now, even from a Zerg perspective, it seems as if Terran is always behind, from the beginning to the end of the match. EDIT: Oh and trying to nerf/buff zerg/terran late-game units just to justify this terrible balance change is a bad idea, because it'll just throw everything in the air again, and nobody wants that. I wish Blizzard just left things as they were...
I disagree. The burden of guessing and scouting was 90% on Zerg's side. Does he 2 rax, does he commit to hellions (need roaches) or not ? Does he build banshees ? etc. If you guessed/scouted wrong, you lose or you get behind (preparing for a push/tec that did not come).
Ofc you get some kind of "balance" because you guessed like 60-70% correct (which does not necessarily win you the game, just let you survive), but from a Zerg perspective, early game was pretty coinflippy.
Blizz adressed exactly this by buffing scouting and early defense (not *that* much, queens are a terrible fighting unit). You should avoid to only see the perspective of your race .
And again: one hardly can balance by tweaking the early game because of the snowball effects, so better buff/nerf the mid/late game units.
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On July 08 2012 07:42 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:19 InoyouS2 wrote:On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast. Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player). A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec. Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick. One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good. TvZ was never "coinflippy" before the patch, in fact it was by far the most balanced (and most fun to watch IMO) match-up, now, even from a Zerg perspective, it seems as if Terran is always behind, from the beginning to the end of the match. EDIT: Oh and trying to nerf/buff zerg/terran late-game units just to justify this terrible balance change is a bad idea, because it'll just throw everything in the air again, and nobody wants that. I wish Blizzard just left things as they were... I disagree. The burden of guessing and scouting was 90% on Zerg's side. Does he 2 rax, does he commit to hellions (need roaches) or not ? Does he build banshees ? etc. If you guessed/scouted wrong, you lose or you get behind (preparing for a push/tec that did not come). Ofc you get some kind of "balance" because you guessed like 60-70% correct (which does not necessarily win you the game, just let you survive), but from a Zerg perspective, early game was pretty coinflippy. Blizz adressed exactly this by buffing scouting and early defense (not *that* much, queens are a terrible fighting unit). You should avoid to only see the perspective of your race . And again: you hardly can balance by tweaking the early game because of the snowball effects, so better buff/nerf the mid/late game units.
you don't buff something that can help with scouting (i.e. to make better decisions) and THEN also buff something that helps you hold off all-ins (that you need anyways)
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On July 08 2012 07:43 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:42 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 07:19 InoyouS2 wrote:On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast. Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player). A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec. Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick. One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good. TvZ was never "coinflippy" before the patch, in fact it was by far the most balanced (and most fun to watch IMO) match-up, now, even from a Zerg perspective, it seems as if Terran is always behind, from the beginning to the end of the match. EDIT: Oh and trying to nerf/buff zerg/terran late-game units just to justify this terrible balance change is a bad idea, because it'll just throw everything in the air again, and nobody wants that. I wish Blizzard just left things as they were... I disagree. The burden of guessing and scouting was 90% on Zerg's side. Does he 2 rax, does he commit to hellions (need roaches) or not ? Does he build banshees ? etc. If you guessed/scouted wrong, you lose or you get behind (preparing for a push/tec that did not come). Ofc you get some kind of "balance" because you guessed like 60-70% correct (which does not necessarily win you the game, just let you survive), but from a Zerg perspective, early game was pretty coinflippy. Blizz adressed exactly this by buffing scouting and early defense (not *that* much, queens are a terrible fighting unit). You should avoid to only see the perspective of your race . And again: you hardly can balance by tweaking the early game because of the snowball effects, so better buff/nerf the mid/late game units. you don't buff something that can help with scouting (i.e. to make better decisions) and THEN also buff something that helps you hold off all-ins (that you need anyways)
Well, it is still pretty easy to hide tec and sac'ing overlords hurts early game because they cost 100 minerals +1 larvae. Its not like Zergs have full information. In the beginning of SC2 maps were much smaller, with todays larger maps, a slight increase of Ovie speed just adjusts for the growth of map size.
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On July 08 2012 07:19 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast. Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player). A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec. Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick. One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good. TvZ was never "coinflippy" before the patch, in fact it was by far the most balanced (and most fun to watch IMO) match-up, now, even from a Zerg perspective, it seems as if Terran is always behind, from the beginning to the end of the match.
It was very coinflippy, mostly because of being unable to scout a Terran while not having a "hold it all" build. This patch kind of gave both to Zerg.
Why do you think, so many Terrans just did some 2base cheeses, allins or "just putting on some pressure, because in this MU it doesn't matter what I do it works as long as I can hide it for 2mins"? Because Zerg couldn't hold "double fac hellion", "hellion/marauder", "hellion/marine", "marine/tank", "2port banshee with or without cloak", "double drop", "MM(M)", "hellion drop" if he didn't know whats coming, while playing against a standard "I take my third before you because you are contained up to 10min" - 3CC build.
The problem before the patch was, that the first 10-15minutes of the game, a Zerg could hardly actively win, because Terran just had a trillion options and the zerg neither the economy nor the production to attack if Terran didn't waste a ton of units.
The situation right now is, that a Zerg still can't attack very well, but the Terran can neither and suddenly 80% of the Terran strategies have become somewhat obsolete. Basically what the MU is missing, is to give both sides options to do damage without hardcore commiting, so that building units is actually not a bad option. Sadly this won't happen, because it would require some big change to Zerg T1-T2 (apart from reverting the queen change), which would just screw balance too much (and apart from some T1 burrow roach and baneling action, I can't really see anything like this)
I'm not saying the the MU wasn't or isn't balanced, but it was and is lacking options.
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My personal solution is seriously nerfing Creep and especially creepspread in some sort. If the Creep wouldn't be so far out so early the 5 Range Queens wouldn't matter. But Creep spreads so fucking far so stupidly fast that Zerg gets mobility on normally not so mobile Units extremely early and can defend places at times in the game where they really shouldn't.
Creeptumors either are no longer invisible OR creep receeds way way way faster after killing tumors ( maybe also ovies ) OR tumors no longer stack meaning you don't get fast creepspread by planting more tumors at next to each other. Its too good right now. Once Creepspead has begone theres no stopping it anymore right now. Even if you specicially build a Raven for it once the Zerg has units on the field he will spread creep almost to your base in just a few minutes . You kill a few tumors and the Zerg will just respread them in second before the Creep has gone back far enough. You can't just wait that long till its gone far enough with the way Terran reeinforce . You'll lose everything if you overstay .
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No zergs play that greedy if you don't 1 rax fe, lol.
On July 08 2012 07:42 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:19 InoyouS2 wrote:On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast. Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player). A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec. Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick. One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good. TvZ was never "coinflippy" before the patch, in fact it was by far the most balanced (and most fun to watch IMO) match-up, now, even from a Zerg perspective, it seems as if Terran is always behind, from the beginning to the end of the match. EDIT: Oh and trying to nerf/buff zerg/terran late-game units just to justify this terrible balance change is a bad idea, because it'll just throw everything in the air again, and nobody wants that. I wish Blizzard just left things as they were... I disagree. The burden of guessing and scouting was 90% on Zerg's side. Does he 2 rax, does he commit to hellions (need roaches) or not ? Does he build banshees ? etc. If you guessed/scouted wrong, you lose or you get behind (preparing for a push/tec that did not come). Ofc you get some kind of "balance" because you guessed like 60-70% correct (which does not necessarily win you the game, just let you survive), but from a Zerg perspective, early game was pretty coinflippy. Blizz adressed exactly this by buffing scouting and early defense (not *that* much, queens are a terrible fighting unit). You should avoid to only see the perspective of your race . And again: one hardly can balance by tweaking the early game because of the snowball effects, so better buff/nerf the mid/late game units.
Since when was any of that an issue? lol. 2 rax was hardly an issue, and has little to do with the scouting anyways. Fast banshee was, for the vast majority of the part, beaten by Zergs quite easily, rarely did you see Zergs lose to it. There was no "burden of guessing." You could see if Terran FE'd via your overlord. If they didn't, you just massed speedling/queen with some spines, and then would throw down spores around the banshee timing.
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On July 08 2012 08:12 FabledIntegral wrote:No zergs play that greedy if you don't 1 rax fe, lol.Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:42 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 07:19 InoyouS2 wrote:On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast. Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player). A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec. Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick. One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good. TvZ was never "coinflippy" before the patch, in fact it was by far the most balanced (and most fun to watch IMO) match-up, now, even from a Zerg perspective, it seems as if Terran is always behind, from the beginning to the end of the match. EDIT: Oh and trying to nerf/buff zerg/terran late-game units just to justify this terrible balance change is a bad idea, because it'll just throw everything in the air again, and nobody wants that. I wish Blizzard just left things as they were... I disagree. The burden of guessing and scouting was 90% on Zerg's side. Does he 2 rax, does he commit to hellions (need roaches) or not ? Does he build banshees ? etc. If you guessed/scouted wrong, you lose or you get behind (preparing for a push/tec that did not come). Ofc you get some kind of "balance" because you guessed like 60-70% correct (which does not necessarily win you the game, just let you survive), but from a Zerg perspective, early game was pretty coinflippy. Blizz adressed exactly this by buffing scouting and early defense (not *that* much, queens are a terrible fighting unit). You should avoid to only see the perspective of your race . And again: one hardly can balance by tweaking the early game because of the snowball effects, so better buff/nerf the mid/late game units. Since when was any of that an issue? lol. 2 rax was hardly an issue, and has little to do with the scouting anyways. Fast banshee was, for the vast majority of the part, beaten by Zergs quite easily, rarely did you see Zergs lose to it. There was no "burden of guessing." You could see if Terran FE'd via your overlord. If they didn't, you just massed speedling/queen with some spines, and then would throw down spores around the banshee timing.
Unless you're 2 Raxing what else is there ? Gas openers put you behind these days .....
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On July 08 2012 08:36 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 08:12 FabledIntegral wrote:No zergs play that greedy if you don't 1 rax fe, lol.On July 08 2012 07:42 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 07:19 InoyouS2 wrote:On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast. Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player). A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec. Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick. One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good. TvZ was never "coinflippy" before the patch, in fact it was by far the most balanced (and most fun to watch IMO) match-up, now, even from a Zerg perspective, it seems as if Terran is always behind, from the beginning to the end of the match. EDIT: Oh and trying to nerf/buff zerg/terran late-game units just to justify this terrible balance change is a bad idea, because it'll just throw everything in the air again, and nobody wants that. I wish Blizzard just left things as they were... I disagree. The burden of guessing and scouting was 90% on Zerg's side. Does he 2 rax, does he commit to hellions (need roaches) or not ? Does he build banshees ? etc. If you guessed/scouted wrong, you lose or you get behind (preparing for a push/tec that did not come). Ofc you get some kind of "balance" because you guessed like 60-70% correct (which does not necessarily win you the game, just let you survive), but from a Zerg perspective, early game was pretty coinflippy. Blizz adressed exactly this by buffing scouting and early defense (not *that* much, queens are a terrible fighting unit). You should avoid to only see the perspective of your race . And again: one hardly can balance by tweaking the early game because of the snowball effects, so better buff/nerf the mid/late game units. Since when was any of that an issue? lol. 2 rax was hardly an issue, and has little to do with the scouting anyways. Fast banshee was, for the vast majority of the part, beaten by Zergs quite easily, rarely did you see Zergs lose to it. There was no "burden of guessing." You could see if Terran FE'd via your overlord. If they didn't, you just massed speedling/queen with some spines, and then would throw down spores around the banshee timing. Unless you're 2 Raxing what else is there ? Gas openers put you behind these days .....
It was responding to the OP.
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Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. '
It's not about hellion runbys.... I was saying terrans could out-macro Zerg and deny creep too well by going Reactor Hellion into Fast third. Zerg can't spread creep against it, and Zerg's third is forever denied, and Zerg has to spend about 400 minerals just to counter directly what he knows is coming, 400 minerals worth of hellions. You shouldn't be able to both expand AND deny the opponent from expanding, which is what reactor hellion into fast third did.
There are plenty of ways to deny Zerg's third from going up - 1 base all-in. Zerg can never take a third against a 1 base all-in. Similarly, Zerg can't take a third against a Toss 1 base all-in either.
If Terran expands, there should be no way Zerg can be denied their third, at most Terran can just punish Zerg from droning it too hard, but not from taking it.
That's the fundamental problem with the way a lot of Terran's view the match-up. Zerg is supposed to expand first, to take a base ahead, but meanwhile many Terran's seem to think it's a problem that Zerg can take a third against a Terran who expanded. You don't hear Toss complain that Zerg can't be denied a third after they go FFE, or anyone complain about Zerg taking their natural against a 1 base T/P.
If you want to deny the third, there are plenty of 1 base all-ins that will work. Of course, if Zerg just doesnt take his third, you are screwed, just as you should be, but you are still denying Zerg's third. If you want to punish a Zerg for droning too hard, go right ahead, there are plenty FE into stim timings which if all you do is kill the third you are just even because your third is still too late, but dont think that you have a right to deny zerg's third after you've expanded.
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On July 08 2012 09:29 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. ' It's not about hellion runbys.... I was saying terrans could out-macro Zerg and deny creep too well by going Reactor Hellion into Fast third. Zerg can't spread creep against it, and Zerg's third is forever denied, and Zerg has to spend about 400 minerals just to counter directly what he knows is coming, 400 minerals worth of hellions. You shouldn't be able to both expand AND deny the opponent from expanding, which is what reactor hellion into fast third did. There are plenty of ways to deny Zerg's third from going up - 1 base all-in. Zerg can never take a third against a 1 base all-in. Similarly, Zerg can't take a third against a Toss 1 base all-in either. If Terran expands, there should be no way Zerg can be denied their third, at most Terran can just punish Zerg from droning it too hard, but not from taking it. That's the fundamental problem with the way a lot of Terran's view the match-up. Zerg is supposed to expand first, to take a base ahead, but meanwhile many Terran's seem to think it's a problem that Zerg can take a third against a Terran who expanded. You don't hear Toss complain that Zerg can't be denied a third after they go FFE, or anyone complain about Zerg taking their natural against a 1 base T/P. If you want to deny the third, there are plenty of 1 base all-ins that will work. Of course, if Zerg just doesnt take his third, you are screwed, just as you should be, but you are still denying Zerg's third. If you want to punish a Zerg for droning too hard, go right ahead, there are plenty FE into stim timings which if all you do is kill the third you are just even because your third is still too late, but dont think that you have a right to deny zerg's third after you've expanded.
Zergs could spread creep fine. You just had to use the ridges. Maps like Antiga, Cloud Kingdom, and pretty much every other map I could think of, Zergs realized they could simply spread creep via ridges.
Zergs can take a third vs both Terran and Protoss 1 base allins. You just don't drone it up. I just killed a 4gate today where I did quick three base, immediate speed after I realized what he was doing, and pumped pure lings. I even had an evo chamber I didn't utilize in case DT came, but it was 4gate.
You also haven't followed SC2. The main complained from toss is that Zerg can drone up insanely if Toss goes Forge FE. There is no "supposed to" happen. It's whatever is balanced. Zerg is clearly not.
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I was of the opinion that terrans should hold off on their critisizm until more time passed. But after watching a lot of games this weekend, I've changed my opinion. Zerg is far to safe now in the early game, can spread creep to easily, and can macro up too safely. Terran seems behind the entire game.
A lot of TvZ's aren't even that close. Just pushing onto the map is risky with all the creep. And with all the queens in play I don't see Terran having many options early to slow it down. The reactored hellion opening was standard for a reason, it slowed down creep, it gave terran a presence on the map, and allowed some pressure. Without it the MU seems very one sided.
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On July 08 2012 07:48 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:43 zhurai wrote:On July 08 2012 07:42 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 07:19 InoyouS2 wrote:On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast. Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player). A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec. Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick. One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good. TvZ was never "coinflippy" before the patch, in fact it was by far the most balanced (and most fun to watch IMO) match-up, now, even from a Zerg perspective, it seems as if Terran is always behind, from the beginning to the end of the match. EDIT: Oh and trying to nerf/buff zerg/terran late-game units just to justify this terrible balance change is a bad idea, because it'll just throw everything in the air again, and nobody wants that. I wish Blizzard just left things as they were... I disagree. The burden of guessing and scouting was 90% on Zerg's side. Does he 2 rax, does he commit to hellions (need roaches) or not ? Does he build banshees ? etc. If you guessed/scouted wrong, you lose or you get behind (preparing for a push/tec that did not come). Ofc you get some kind of "balance" because you guessed like 60-70% correct (which does not necessarily win you the game, just let you survive), but from a Zerg perspective, early game was pretty coinflippy. Blizz adressed exactly this by buffing scouting and early defense (not *that* much, queens are a terrible fighting unit). You should avoid to only see the perspective of your race . And again: you hardly can balance by tweaking the early game because of the snowball effects, so better buff/nerf the mid/late game units. you don't buff something that can help with scouting (i.e. to make better decisions) and THEN also buff something that helps you hold off all-ins (that you need anyways) Well, it is still pretty easy to hide tec and sac'ing overlords hurts early game because they cost 100 minerals +1 larvae. Its not like Zergs have full information. In the beginning of SC2 maps were much smaller, with todays larger maps, a slight increase of Ovie speed just adjusts for the growth of map size.
I never said that I disagreed with the overlord speed change. I don't agree with the change with the queen change.
On July 08 2012 08:05 s3rp wrote:
My personal solution is seriously nerfing Creep and especially creepspread in some sort. If the Creep wouldn't be so far out so early the 5 Range Queens wouldn't matter. But Creep spreads so fucking far so stupidly fast that Zerg gets mobility on normally not so mobile Units extremely early and can defend places at times in the game where they really shouldn't.
Creeptumors either are no longer invisible OR creep receeds way way way faster after killing tumors ( maybe also ovies ) OR tumors no longer stack meaning you don't get fast creepspread by planting more tumors at next to each other. Its too good right now. Once Creepspead has begone theres no stopping it anymore right now. Even if you specicially build a Raven for it once the Zerg has units on the field he will spread creep almost to your base in just a few minutes . You kill a few tumors and the Zerg will just respread them in second before the Creep has gone back far enough. You can't just wait that long till its gone far enough with the way Terran reeinforce . You'll lose everything if you overstay .
agree, also the zerg can just bring queens after the terran army is gone to replant the creep tumors anyways (so it's not like they really lost that much creep either)
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On July 08 2012 09:55 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 07:48 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 07:43 zhurai wrote:On July 08 2012 07:42 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 07:19 InoyouS2 wrote:On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast. Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player). A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec. Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick. One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good. TvZ was never "coinflippy" before the patch, in fact it was by far the most balanced (and most fun to watch IMO) match-up, now, even from a Zerg perspective, it seems as if Terran is always behind, from the beginning to the end of the match. EDIT: Oh and trying to nerf/buff zerg/terran late-game units just to justify this terrible balance change is a bad idea, because it'll just throw everything in the air again, and nobody wants that. I wish Blizzard just left things as they were... I disagree. The burden of guessing and scouting was 90% on Zerg's side. Does he 2 rax, does he commit to hellions (need roaches) or not ? Does he build banshees ? etc. If you guessed/scouted wrong, you lose or you get behind (preparing for a push/tec that did not come). Ofc you get some kind of "balance" because you guessed like 60-70% correct (which does not necessarily win you the game, just let you survive), but from a Zerg perspective, early game was pretty coinflippy. Blizz adressed exactly this by buffing scouting and early defense (not *that* much, queens are a terrible fighting unit). You should avoid to only see the perspective of your race . And again: you hardly can balance by tweaking the early game because of the snowball effects, so better buff/nerf the mid/late game units. you don't buff something that can help with scouting (i.e. to make better decisions) and THEN also buff something that helps you hold off all-ins (that you need anyways) Well, it is still pretty easy to hide tec and sac'ing overlords hurts early game because they cost 100 minerals +1 larvae. Its not like Zergs have full information. In the beginning of SC2 maps were much smaller, with todays larger maps, a slight increase of Ovie speed just adjusts for the growth of map size. I never said that I disagreed with the overlord speed change. I don't agree with the change with the queen change. Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 08:05 s3rp wrote:
My personal solution is seriously nerfing Creep and especially creepspread in some sort. If the Creep wouldn't be so far out so early the 5 Range Queens wouldn't matter. But Creep spreads so fucking far so stupidly fast that Zerg gets mobility on normally not so mobile Units extremely early and can defend places at times in the game where they really shouldn't.
Creeptumors either are no longer invisible OR creep receeds way way way faster after killing tumors ( maybe also ovies ) OR tumors no longer stack meaning you don't get fast creepspread by planting more tumors at next to each other. Its too good right now. Once Creepspead has begone theres no stopping it anymore right now. Even if you specicially build a Raven for it once the Zerg has units on the field he will spread creep almost to your base in just a few minutes . You kill a few tumors and the Zerg will just respread them in second before the Creep has gone back far enough. You can't just wait that long till its gone far enough with the way Terran reeinforce . You'll lose everything if you overstay . agree, also the zerg can just bring queens after the terran army is gone to replant the creep tumors anyways (so it's not like they really lost that much creep either)
nerfing creep spread seems like a good idea, as this would mostly hit the higher level (mechanics) play. I suspect my terran opponents do not suffer that much from my 100'ish apm creep spread ;-). Maybe lower the energy cost of a tumor, but remove the tumor spread ability, so a zerg always needs a queen in place to plant tumors. So the further away from the zergs base creep is spread, the more risk of losing queens is taken
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Zergs can take a third vs both Terran and Protoss 1 base allins. You just don't drone it up. I just killed a 4gate today where I did quick three base, immediate speed after I realized what he was doing, and pumped pure lings. I even had an evo chamber I didn't utilize in case DT came, but it was 4gate.
I'm sorry, I don't believe you. I don't believe you can hold a 4 gate if you took a quick third... please, submit the rep, because that is ridiculous. And speed takes a long time, i can't imagine you took your third, then realized what toss was up to, and got gas reactively...
I seriously doubt a Zerg can take a third and survive any sort of 1 base terran all-in as well either - 2 rax scv all-in, 4-7 rax all-in, 3 rax marine/marauder stim back from like the beta, double fact, double starport...
I think you are just making stuff up and complaining about zerg. I can't even take a third against reactor hellion without a few lings and later than 50 (standard is 40-50), so how is zerg going to take a third against 7 rax. Bullshit.
If you want to say something like "Oh, zerg can hold certain 1 base all-ins with a quick third" or "If Terran executes the all-in like a scrub, zerg can hold" but making a blanket comment saying "Zerg can hold a quick third against 1 base all-ins" is buillshit.
You also haven't followed SC2. The main complained from toss is that Zerg can drone up insanely if Toss goes Forge FE. There is no "supposed to" happen. It's whatever is balanced. Zerg is clearly not.
Not really... i don't think so. Good luck droning to 75 against 6/7/8 gate all-ins, blink all-ins. I would question if you could drone that hard against immortal/sentry. Maybe only DRG can with his 80+ supply by 8:00.
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On July 09 2012 09:05 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Zergs can take a third vs both Terran and Protoss 1 base allins. You just don't drone it up. I just killed a 4gate today where I did quick three base, immediate speed after I realized what he was doing, and pumped pure lings. I even had an evo chamber I didn't utilize in case DT came, but it was 4gate. I'm sorry, I don't believe you. I don't believe you can hold a 4 gate if you took a quick third... please, submit the rep, because that is ridiculous. And speed takes a long time, i can't imagine you took your third, then realized what toss was up to, and got gas reactively... I seriously doubt a Zerg can take a third and survive any sort of 1 base terran all-in as well either - 2 rax scv all-in, 4-7 rax all-in, 3 rax marine/marauder stim back from like the beta, double fact, double starport... I think you are just making stuff up and complaining about zerg. I can't even take a third against reactor hellion without a few lings and later than 50 (standard is 40-50), so how is zerg going to take a third against 7 rax. Bullshit. If you want to say something like "Oh, zerg can hold certain 1 base all-ins with a quick third" or "If Terran executes the all-in like a scrub, zerg can hold" but making a blanket comment saying "Zerg can hold a quick third against 1 base all-ins" is buillshit. Show nested quote +You also haven't followed SC2. The main complained from toss is that Zerg can drone up insanely if Toss goes Forge FE. There is no "supposed to" happen. It's whatever is balanced. Zerg is clearly not. Not really... i don't think so. Good luck droning to 75 against 6/7/8 gate all-ins, blink all-ins. I would question if you could drone that hard against immortal/sentry. Maybe only DRG can with his 80+ supply by 8:00.
1 Base All-inning against a Zerg will not work. The second he scouts you don't have any kind of faster expansion with the Ovie behind your Base/Natural he will have take Gases have a Baneling-Nest ( and if you wait for Stim also Speed ) for an eventuell all-in off 1 Base. No decent Zerg will just go 3 Base without any kind of scouting . And the second Banes are up anything with SCV's and without stim is instantly held.
Zerg does not need 3 Bases to be ahead if i don't expand myself.
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On July 09 2012 09:05 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +Zergs can take a third vs both Terran and Protoss 1 base allins. You just don't drone it up. I just killed a 4gate today where I did quick three base, immediate speed after I realized what he was doing, and pumped pure lings. I even had an evo chamber I didn't utilize in case DT came, but it was 4gate. I'm sorry, I don't believe you. I don't believe you can hold a 4 gate if you took a quick third... please, submit the rep, because that is ridiculous. And speed takes a long time, i can't imagine you took your third, then realized what toss was up to, and got gas reactively... I seriously doubt a Zerg can take a third and survive any sort of 1 base terran all-in as well either - 2 rax scv all-in, 4-7 rax all-in, 3 rax marine/marauder stim back from like the beta, double fact, double starport... I think you are just making stuff up and complaining about zerg. I can't even take a third against reactor hellion without a few lings and later than 50 (standard is 40-50), so how is zerg going to take a third against 7 rax. Bullshit. If you want to say something like "Oh, zerg can hold certain 1 base all-ins with a quick third" or "If Terran executes the all-in like a scrub, zerg can hold" but making a blanket comment saying "Zerg can hold a quick third against 1 base all-ins" is buillshit. Show nested quote +You also haven't followed SC2. The main complained from toss is that Zerg can drone up insanely if Toss goes Forge FE. There is no "supposed to" happen. It's whatever is balanced. Zerg is clearly not. Not really... i don't think so. Good luck droning to 75 against 6/7/8 gate all-ins, blink all-ins. I would question if you could drone that hard against immortal/sentry. Maybe only DRG can with his 80+ supply by 8:00.
Well, you can indeed hold a 4gate with 3hatch, but you basically have to either do it with a speed opening, or realize it really fast and you have to stay on ~15drones. It's doable, but you are basically holding it with 3hatches but only 1mining base.
And yeah, droning to 75 at 8min blindly is just giving away free wins against the 8-9min 6,7,8gateway zealot allins and should already lose a lot against 4gate+1 and stuff like that, not to mention superfast double SG variants or stuff like that.
People always claim bullshit like that because it happens when the zerg can make sure that nothing like that hits ("stephano style roaches"), but don't get that those are macro builds to "macro right back".
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1 Base All-inning against a Zerg will not work. The second he scouts you don't have any kind of faster expansion with the Ovie behind your Base/Natural he will have take Gases have a Baneling-Nest ( and if you wait for Stim also Speed ) for an eventuell all-in off 1 Base. No decent Zerg will just go 3 Base without any kind of scouting . And the second Banes are up anything with SCV's and without stim is instantly held.
Zerg does not need 3 Bases to be ahead if i don't expand myself.
Well of course, but he still won't be taking a third against it. And that's how it should be - in order to deny an opponent's base, should require a significant investment. Otherwise, T/P expands, while Z takes a third, and drones up/defends T/P pressure, then T/P expand to third while defending Z pressure, then Z takes a fourth and techs up while defending T/P pressure, etc.
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On July 09 2012 10:13 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +1 Base All-inning against a Zerg will not work. The second he scouts you don't have any kind of faster expansion with the Ovie behind your Base/Natural he will have take Gases have a Baneling-Nest ( and if you wait for Stim also Speed ) for an eventuell all-in off 1 Base. No decent Zerg will just go 3 Base without any kind of scouting . And the second Banes are up anything with SCV's and without stim is instantly held.
Zerg does not need 3 Bases to be ahead if i don't expand myself.
Well of course, but he still won't be taking a third against it. And that's how it should be - in order to deny an opponent's base, should require a significant investment. Otherwise, T/P expands, while Z takes a third, and drones up/defends T/P pressure, then T/P expand to third while defending Z pressure, then Z takes a fourth and techs up while defending T/P pressure, etc.
But then i'm behind just as much as i would be in a 2 Base vs 3 Base scenario if i open 1 Base. Zerg doesn't need to be up a saturated base to be even . They need to have an extra Hatch for production. An extra mining base in fact will allways put the Zerg ahead against Terran. Shortterm Mules can kinda compensate for a little while but Terran cannot be behind Zerg in terms of mining bases for too long . You mine out so much faster then Zerg and need just as much if not more mineral then the Zerg.
Terran isn't Toss with the cost effcient high HP units that can with good control steamroll any early/midgame zerg army and reeinforces across the whole damn map thanks to warpgate.
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On July 09 2012 10:13 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +1 Base All-inning against a Zerg will not work. The second he scouts you don't have any kind of faster expansion with the Ovie behind your Base/Natural he will have take Gases have a Baneling-Nest ( and if you wait for Stim also Speed ) for an eventuell all-in off 1 Base. No decent Zerg will just go 3 Base without any kind of scouting . And the second Banes are up anything with SCV's and without stim is instantly held.
Zerg does not need 3 Bases to be ahead if i don't expand myself.
Well of course, but he still won't be taking a third against it. And that's how it should be - in order to deny an opponent's base, should require a significant investment. Otherwise, T/P expands, while Z takes a third, and drones up/defends T/P pressure, then T/P expand to third while defending Z pressure, then Z takes a fourth and techs up while defending T/P pressure, etc.
So let me get this straight. Instead of playing a long and macro game for Terrans, you want all of us to all in the Zergs yea? Because almost 90% of my games Zerg gets a third and is able to drone up like a moron because hellions are laughed at and this so called "pressure" does nothing.
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On July 09 2012 10:17 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2012 10:13 Belial88 wrote:1 Base All-inning against a Zerg will not work. The second he scouts you don't have any kind of faster expansion with the Ovie behind your Base/Natural he will have take Gases have a Baneling-Nest ( and if you wait for Stim also Speed ) for an eventuell all-in off 1 Base. No decent Zerg will just go 3 Base without any kind of scouting . And the second Banes are up anything with SCV's and without stim is instantly held.
Zerg does not need 3 Bases to be ahead if i don't expand myself.
Well of course, but he still won't be taking a third against it. And that's how it should be - in order to deny an opponent's base, should require a significant investment. Otherwise, T/P expands, while Z takes a third, and drones up/defends T/P pressure, then T/P expand to third while defending Z pressure, then Z takes a fourth and techs up while defending T/P pressure, etc. But then i'm behind just as much as i would be in a 2 Base vs 3 Base scenario if i open 1 Base. Zerg doesn't need to be up a saturated base to be even . They need to have an extra Hatch for production. An extra mining base in fact will allways put the Zerg ahead against Terran. Shortterm Mules can kinda compensate for a little while but Terran cannot be behind Zerg in terms of mining bases for too long . You mine out so much faster then Zerg and need just as much if not more mineral then the Zerg. Terran isn't Toss with the cost effcient high HP units that can with good control steamroll any early/midgame zerg army and reeinforces across the whole damn map thanks to warpgate.
ive been considering something against zerg lol.... 8rax all-in sorta like the 8gate blink toss all-in
6 techlabs 2reactor marauder/reaper/marine
no blink for terran, but marauder/marine/reaper actually beats roaches/banes/lings without blink being needed
oh and theres stim however id suggest only stimming maybe 20% of your army per fight since theres no medivacs
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EPT
