[D] TvZ Metagame patch1.4.3.2

I don't think there is enough time to get a banshee and raven in the mid game. Zergs are hitting with faster and faster hive timings now and can you really afford to halt viking and medivac production for a banshee and a raven? I'm not so sure.

On June 20 2012 04:40 ProfSc wrote:

It is possible to get a fast banshee and/or fast raven using variations on ForGG's build or MMA's Hellion/Banshee opening. Further, you don't absolutely need medivacs for mech in the same way you do for bio...

Edit: Changed "spoiler" to "quote."

On June 20 2012 04:52 Cure2 wrote:


So mech is definitely the answer then? I agree that medivacs aren't required for a mech play unless you fancy dropping hellions so in that sense you could be building ravens much earlier than normal. I've had varying degrees of success with mech in the past but I don't like being too passive against a Zerg that realizes he can power drones for a while because my army won't be built anytime soon.

Ghosts do 50 damage to queens now (snipe change) so maybe someone can come up with an early to midgame ghost push to repel creep and lower queen numbers.

On June 20 2012 05:27 Snowbear wrote:
I saw david kim also suggesting that terrans should use a raven in the mid game. There is 1 thing he and the others who give this advice, forget: a raven is 200 gas. Every terran knows that gas is a problem in the midgame. You need to push out before broodlords are out, and by getting a simple raven, you delay:
- medivacs
- tanks
- upgrades
- extra factories

Terrans need a ton of gas early-mid game:
- stim
- combat shield
- tanks
- siegetech
- factory
- startport
- medivacs
- bio upgrades
- tank +1 upgrade
- armory
- reactors

By cutting into these, your push before hive will be weaker + a raven isn't really helping in fights vs ling bling infestor.

On June 20 2012 06:55 EnE wrote:
@Above:


Source or bullshit. If you float gas at 12 mins, then a high level terran WOULDNT GET THE 3RD OR FOURTH REFINERY.


So, whether terran is starved for gas midgame or not, I think you're still talking shit since not floating gas is as easy as not mining too much gas.

On June 20 2012 08:03 `dunedain wrote:
If they are actually considering Terran using Ravens, Blzzard needs to reduce gas cost and either buff armor or add range to their spells. The Raven spells range are too short that spells aren't that viable without losing the raven <-due to the low armor + short spell range.

On June 20 2012 08:41 Yuna wrote:
Obviously building 3 OCs just isn't greedy enough.

Lets all opt to build 4 OCs go up to 8 rax and rally marines into the zerg's base :D

On June 20 2012 09:30 Falcon-sw wrote:


Considering all Terran needed to do was mass blue flame hellions, absolutely destroy the zerg economy, and win, this change is welcome, as far as I'm concerned. I forget what tournament it was, but every Terran from a certain team did this strategy and won the vast majority of their TvZ's.

On June 20 2012 10:27 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
I think you can't, and it's very hard to put pressure in the early game. With my allin(marine-hellion-scv) I win almost 90% of my game because all the zerg are greedy and make only drone and queens.

On June 20 2012 07:13 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Edit: Hey I wonder if such a thing could work involving ghost harass, cloak and/or just medivac drop, snipe and/or EMP the queens, possibly even snipe the larvae if there are no more queens/energy.

On June 20 2012 10:12 Entirety wrote:


That tournament caused blue flame hellions to be nerfed. I'm pretty sure "hellion openings don't do shit now" means the standard bread-and-butter reactor hellions, which makes use of 4-6 red flame hellions, is being denied by queens nowadays.

I have a question to ask: is it actually feasible to keep up with Zerg in a straight up macro game? MKP can macro with the best, but he has to constantly pressure the Zerg with pure bio (his waves of units never stop). In my opinion, trying to macro without pressuring against Zerg is a certain death (mech just doesn't cut it...) while Zerg macroing without pressuring leaves Zerg in a very favorable position. Thoughts?

On June 20 2012 10:56 HeroMystic wrote:

It is impossible to take on Zerg in a straight macro game without some sort of aggression. Due to way Spawn Larva works, Zerg can get drones way faster than Terran (or Protoss for that matter) can. Once they hit optimal drone count, all they need to do is constantly expand and constantly spread creep and get to their Hive tech, and Terran sucks vs Hive.

On June 20 2012 06:24 Insoleet wrote:
Just make more and more medivacs so that your marines and marauders are very cost efficient. Like 12 or 14 medivacs.

Thats what did MKP against Stephano, and he outplayed him.
Against DRG he built only 4-6 medivacs... DRG raped him.

On June 20 2012 10:12 Entirety wrote:


That tournament caused blue flame hellions to be nerfed. I'm pretty sure "hellion openings don't do shit now" means the standard bread-and-butter reactor hellions, which makes use of 4-6 red flame hellions, is being denied by queens nowadays.

I have a question to ask: is it actually feasible to keep up with Zerg in a straight up macro game? MKP can macro with the best, but he has to constantly pressure the Zerg with pure bio (his waves of units never stop). In my opinion, trying to macro without pressuring against Zerg is a certain death (mech just doesn't cut it...) while Zerg macroing without pressuring leaves Zerg in a very favorable position. Thoughts?

On June 20 2012 11:23 frezMki wrote:
Don't overanalyse comments of pros...

A terran player can't analyze this stuff objectively. Since MMA earns his money playing this game he would be thankful for freewins due to imbalance...

The queen buff is worth *****. Srsly... Z arent using spines+Buildingwalls anymore.

Do a Reactor Helion expand. Throw your ***** 6 Helions into their base with 100% commitment and you will win the game up to high Master. 4 Queens will not protect 1hitted Drones from 6 Toasters on wheels!!!

right now Z's are winning because T is scared.
Queens have a higher range, not a higher dmg.


There is absolute no sense to make this Queen buff guilty for a 76% winrate.

Z is overall better since they have new build+ T is super scared without any reason

On June 20 2012 13:56 zhurai wrote:

if anything you're under analyzing it

what do you think the other purpose of hellions were supposed to be, and how strong bio actually is without cs/stim? (which to get both you'll have to push when the creep can be potentially in the middle of the map already, and the zerg been already been pure droning since there's not efficient _normal_ timing you can do to in the early stages of the game to harass the zerg (other than gimmicky ones that you can't rely on anyways)

I haven't even touched some other aspects of it either.

On June 20 2012 11:23 frezMki wrote:
Don't overanalyse comments of pros...

A terran player can't analyze this stuff objectively. Since MMA earns his money playing this game he would be thankful for freewins due to imbalance...

The queen buff is worth *****. Srsly... Z arent using spines+Buildingwalls anymore.

Do a Reactor Helion expand. Throw your ***** 6 Helions into their base with 100% commitment and you will win the game up to high Master. 4 Queens will not protect 1hitted Drones from 6 Toasters on wheels!!!

right now Z's are winning because T is scared.
Queens have a higher range, not a higher dmg.


There is absolute no sense to make this Queen buff guilty for a 76% winrate.

Z is overall better since they have new build+ T is super scared without any reason

On June 20 2012 14:09 frezMki wrote:


Ever microed Marines vs Lings dude?

It works. He must spend larva on units which he doesn't wanna build at this point. (Scan creep denie btw).
Im playing MMM in TvZ because it fits my micro best and i dont get your problem.There is absolutely no problem todo some early pushes. Those pushes are quite essential with MMM play tbh.because you are absuing the Z macro weakness (eco or army) while you effectively trade armys.
Without those pushes MMM is kinda useless.
I don't get your compare between Bio and helions. They dont need each other but they can exist simultaniously.

If you think Helions were made to close the gap of "low bio till cs/stim bio" - I must say you are wrong Or atleast your pov doesn't fit to mine.

Anyway i don't think this Queen buff was a huge deal.Its more a scare factor at the moment and Z's become better in general

On June 20 2012 14:14 ThaSlayer wrote:

You are making a hell lot of assumptions here.
"The queen buff is worth *****. Srsly... Z arent using spines+Buildingwalls anymore." - You are getting confused here. Wouldnt a switch from spines + buildingwalls to 6 ish queens for defence indicate queens have gotten stronger?

"Do a Reactor Helion expand. Throw your ***** 6 Helions into their base with 100% commitment and you will win the game up to high Master. 4 Queens will not protect 1hitted Drones from 6 Toasters on wheels!!!" - The zerg meta game has shifted to get lots of queens for early defence.

On June 20 2012 10:01 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
other exemple of allin/ way to punish greedy zerg, 4rax+1factoryhellion : http://drop.sc/200715

On June 20 2012 14:52 Entirety wrote:
So Terrans have to go Battlecruiser/Raven/Thor/Viking/Banshee/Tank/Ghost?

Great, we would love to! Too bad it's not viable. Tanks aren't doing much for Terrans, Ghosts have been nerfed to the point where they are just used for EMPs and harassment, they are not a core unit. Ravens are promising but mass Ravens just gets fungaled. Ravens need support... Battlecruisers take too long to mass up and they get demolished by Corrupters. Thors are truly weak vs. Brood Lords and Roaches. Vikings and Banshees are good and everything, but Banshees can't hit the Brood Lords and air in general is countered by the Infestor.

tldr: What can we actually do with the gas? Ravens are the most promising option right now but mass Ravens just doesn't work and a sprinkle of Ravens doesn't tip the battle enough. Remember that Zerg is entering the lategame with an advantage - Terran won't have time to build up a fleet of Ravens.

On June 20 2012 14:43 frezMki wrote:
Ouch ouch ouch

Faulty Logic @Alacast

Terran Deathball seems to be weaker because its like 1/4 of the Z's Gas.

We are fighting with like 1-1,5k Gas against 4-5k (not exactly but you know what i mean)

So if we win a Fight its gg,if we lose we keep reinforcing cheaper.

Build up an army which is worth the same and T willnot be considered as a weaker Lategame-Race in TvZ

On June 20 2012 06:48 Charon1979 wrote:


Interesting... I see even high level Terran players floating 800 gas at the 12 minute mark. Do they all have macro issues or is it more like "Marine, marine, marine, marine, a few tanks, upgrades for marines, marines marines,... is not that gasheavy as you want to pretend here?
Its not like one single raven (you dont have to suicide it) will delay your tech more than banshee + cloak when you only use one. And its not half of a coinflip to make good use of the raven. Also the raven saves up "anti-creep scans" making more room for mules and thus MINERAL income

Are you saying that every stage of the game must be balanced (early game, midgame, lategame)? If so, then I point to TvP as an example of how that isn't necessarily true. Terran seems to have an advantage in the super ridiculous lategame (throw away all SCVs in favor of MULEs), Protoss have an advantage in the lategame (storm + Archons + Collosi), and Terran have an advantage in the early to midgame. The advantage can shift throughout the game, but TvZ is nothing like that at all.

Zerg has the advantage in the lategame right now, I don't think anyone can deny that. Until someone revolutionizes lategame TvZ again (c'mon Mvp, do some strategy such as mass nukes and show us how it is done!), Terran's lategame options are distinctly weaker than Zerg's. If so, then Terran has to have an advantage in the early/midgame, no?

Even when Terrans were able to deny the Zerg's 3rd while taking a quick third (Bomber's quick 3rd OC comes to mind), Terrans RARELY outmacroed the Zerg. I agree that the Queen buff helped Zergs deal with Terran pressure such as excessive 2rax bunker play, but the ramifications are just too great.

If a Terran and Zerg play the game you described, Zerg can easily defend his 3rd (unless it's a 2-base all-in from the Terran, in which case the Zerg can probably crush it and win anyway). The Terran takes his 3rd and the Zerg takes his 4th, and suddenly Infestor/Blords come knocking at the Terran's door. Perhaps the Terran manages to fend it off... then he dies to the instant Ultralisk remax.

Terran simply cannot hope to outmacro Zerg because Zerg has been overdroning heavily due to his new protection, the Queen. Whatever pressures the Terran may throw at the Zerg, the Zerg will repel them and drone heavily. This translates into an economic advantage, a macro advantage, and later, an army advantage. There is a reason why Terrans opt to pressure and disrupt the Zerg's macro - they need to do so in order to keep up. Most Terran build orders had this general plan:

Fast expand
- Put on light/decent amounts of pressure, forcing the Zerg to make lings or blings to deal with it
- The Zerg used some of his larva on units, and the worker count is more or less equal
- A slugfest occurs with mech/marine tank/bio vs. the Zerg composition

Now, take away step 2 of the game plan. That's why Terrans are trying to find new, innovative ways to pressure (hellion/marauder, hellion/banshee, ghost rush to kill queens?), new ways to all-in (Zergs aren't dumb, they know how to counter all-ins and they will learn), or new ways to outmacro the Zerg, or at least macro on par with the Zerg (ridiculously greedy 4OC builds are suggested, but even then, I'm skeptical about Terran's ability to macro with the Zerg without pressure)

Honestly, I think the best option left for Terrans is pure bio with crazy multitasking. Straight up assaults vs. muta and insane amounts of drops + pre-splitting vs. infestor/blings/lings/t3

On June 20 2012 07:39 Rockafella wrote:
1 Rax FE into fast Starport (using the factory's techlab to make 1 Raven and then start double Medivac from making a reactor on the aforementioned fact?) Surely a raven could be used for a small bit of harass with the auto turret getting 1 or 2 worker kills at least, (ala fast cloak banshee) plus helping with the creep-spread for the rest of the game.

The rest I don't have much of a solution about, TvZ seems pretty hard at the moment!

On June 20 2012 18:15 frezMki wrote:
1raven 2 banshee is insane

On June 20 2012 18:15 frezMki wrote:
1raven 2 banshee is insane

On June 20 2012 14:32 Entirety wrote:
I point to TvP as an example of how that isn't necessarily true ... Terran have an advantage in the early to midgame.

On June 20 2012 16:29 frezMki wrote:


Players get new challenges and response to them which will cause new challenges for the opponent.

Its to narrow-minded to say "Yea its tohard to execute"- Conters are always harder to execute.

Just look back how sc2 began and how it is played now

On June 20 2012 16:43 Belial88 wrote:
I'm not saying TvZ lategame is without it's problems. But early game TvZ was OP, and it's now fixed. Hopefully, blizz will fix any issues, if there are any, in lategame TvZ, but it is still way, way too early to tell. Even Vr/Colossus was OP for a long time, and after it was 'balanced' with the infestor buff, we started to see zergs just beat such play by going mutas, making the infestor buff unnecessary (turned out infestor buff was necessary to make zergs beat robo-macro play, but no one did that back then).

On June 20 2012 23:00 Viter wrote:


I agree with this 100%
Like terrans are so used to just sticking with the same units all game, they they finally have a challenge.
But sadly all terrans are nay sayers are don't want the challenge, they just want to stick with the same 3 units all game.

Go play with it, that's what the other races did in the start when SC2 came out.
DO SOMETHING NEW

On June 20 2012 16:44 Entirety wrote:
...and then Zergs learn to split their Infestors and burrow them. Then they throw in Banelings so we're forced to split our bio, even after EMPs.

On June 20 2012 23:21 derpinator wrote:
As a terran player what I really like about the zerg queen buff is that we now get to see how many bad terran players just massed blue flames and suiciding them into minerals lines. That whas basicly their entire strategy hoping to get a 50% win on ladder and on the forums sometimes they try to disguise that by using words as denying creep spread or map control (which you stilll have!). But now zergs choose to get 6 queens and their strategy stopped working and they have to rely on better macro and better understanding of timings to defeat zerg. So they do what all bad players do... they switch to protoss.

On June 20 2012 23:00 Viter wrote:


I agree with this 100%
Like terrans are so used to just sticking with the same units all game, they they finally have a challenge.
But sadly all terrans are nay sayers are don't want the challenge, they just want to stick with the same 3 units all game.

Go play with it, that's what the other races did in the start when SC2 came out.
DO SOMETHING NEW

Bellial, arent you forgetting the roach ling baneling all in? That destroyed any kind of 3rd while hellion shit. Early game T was in no way OP.

Fast 3rd CC is in no way comparable. So we could delay the third a bit? with all the roach xpand coming out? Blizz definitily took an initiative that was uncalled for.

*****************************************
Ovie speed was enough to give Z the weapons to punish fast CC's because of better scouting.

Yea you still have map control. But you cant deny creep or expansion. So helions now are expensive "tourists" that you can use as roache-scout. Cool!

On June 21 2012 00:17 frezMki wrote:
Which upgrades are you talking about?

Hes talking about unit comps. why are you talking about upgrades?!:D

On June 21 2012 00:30 ArchAngelSC wrote:

Because, unlike both protoss and zerg, terran upgrades don't affect both low tier units and high tier units so mixing them is.... not the best idea,

On June 21 2012 01:09 frezMki wrote:


And keep whining that we can't beat a 5k gas army with out 1k is the best idea?

All this excuses are useless. Barely any Z is upgrading his air
-> Thor is fighting with 0-0 vs 0-0

Viking Upgrades are standard even with MMM

So blame the Upgrademechanic isn't the best idea either

On June 21 2012 02:45 frezMki wrote:
No you didn't understand my post.

In my Unitcomp Thors (mech) are dealing with the Air of the Z (BL/Corrupter)
They aren't upgraded aswell!!!!!!! Its 0-0 vs 0-0 in 90% of the games.

Your Bio is upgraded because this is your core in midgame, Air is upgraded aswell if you are good.
Thors don't need them though since Z Air just rarely upgraded. Even without upgrades Thors are insane against stacking BL/Corrupters

Just a faulty logic to say that you are fighting against a whole 3-3 army and there is no reason to get a mixarmy thats not true. In the end the Z is most likely bader upgraded than you because just 1 attackof the BL profits from his upgrades.
Yes this army needs time but during the nonstop Biotrades the Z will need ages to get his deathball too. Don't be so narrow-minded

But i don't care tbh. im using this comp.,im winning with this comp. If you want to explain your horrible winrate in TvZ keep doing it with faulty logic based excuses
If you don't try it don't blame it!

On June 21 2012 00:17 frezMki wrote:
Which upgrades are you talking about?

Hes talking about unit comps. why are you talking about upgrades?!:D

On June 21 2012 02:53 HeroMystic wrote:


You should at least be getting +1 Mech Weapons for tanks to oneshot lings.

On June 21 2012 02:45 frezMki wrote:
No you didn't understand my post.

In my Unitcomp Thors (mech) are dealing with the Air of the Z (BL/Corrupter)
They aren't upgraded aswell!!!!!!! Its 0-0 vs 0-0 in 90% of the games.

Your Bio is upgraded because this is your core in midgame, Air is upgraded aswell if you are good.
Thors don't need them though since Z Air just rarely upgraded. Even without upgrades Thors are insane against stacking BL/Corrupters

Just a faulty logic to say that you are fighting against a whole 3-3 army and there is no reason to get a mixarmy thats not true. In the end the Z is most likely bader upgraded than you because just 1 attackof the BL profits from his upgrades.
Yes this army needs time but during the nonstop Biotrades the Z will need ages to get his deathball too. Don't be so narrow-minded

But i don't care tbh. im using this comp.,im winning with this comp. If you want to explain your horrible winrate in TvZ keep doing it with faulty logic based excuses
If you don't try it don't blame it!

On June 21 2012 03:06 zhurai wrote:

bio upgrades, mech upgrades, sky upgrades

going from bio -> mech, or mech -> bio, or bio->sky, etc makes you have a bunch of units that are
1) weaker
2) you don't have much production of those units
3) probably worse for long awhile (3/3 bio vs 3/3 lings/ultras/bl's/etc vs 1/1 or so sky/mech units vs 3/3 lings/ultras/bl's) or whatever

On June 20 2012 17:24 Moka wrote:
Hello TL,

I've recently read this article about QXC's bunker contain, and i think it's a very good idea that could be incorporated
into standard play with enough refinements.
All credits to QXC, I wonder why he hasn't posted that here since there has been so much complains in TvZ XD

http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1516/The-QXC-Bunker-A-New-Way-to-Contain-Creep-in-TvZ/

The game(NASL Season3 Sheth vs QXC) :
+ Show Spoiler +

I'm not a really high level player, and my understanding of the game isn't that really great,

What do you guys think?

Is it viable?
Is the investement worth it?

On June 21 2012 02:45 frezMki wrote:
No you didn't understand my post.

In my Unitcomp Thors (mech) are dealing with the Air of the Z (BL/Corrupter)
They aren't upgraded aswell!!!!!!! Its 0-0 vs 0-0 in 90% of the games.

Your Bio is upgraded because this is your core in midgame, Air is upgraded aswell if you are good.
Thors don't need them though since Z Air just rarely upgraded. Even without upgrades Thors are insane against stacking BL/Corrupters

Just a faulty logic to say that you are fighting against a whole 3-3 army and there is no reason to get a mixarmy thats not true. In the end the Z is most likely bader upgraded than you because just 1 attackof the BL profits from his upgrades.
Yes this army needs time but during the nonstop Biotrades the Z will need ages to get his deathball too. Don't be so narrow-minded

But i don't care tbh. im using this comp.,im winning with this comp. If you want to explain your horrible winrate in TvZ keep doing it with faulty logic based excuses
If you don't try it don't blame it!

On June 21 2012 03:56 frezMki wrote:
Yep for sure

1 Game from GSL CodeS where Z has 3-3 Air / 3-3 Ground and T doesnt have 3-3Ground 2-0 Air and i will stop laughing ^^ So its not in my "Gold" league - its in KR GML the same ^^

I can give you a whole websites where the corrupters/BL stacks and isntwell upgraded. Which one do you want to have?

sc2rep.com
gosugamers.net
TakeTV archive
MLG ReplayPack??

I have everything for you from players which probably snack all of us while playing drunken

On June 20 2012 23:48 LucidityDark wrote:


If they can throw in enough banelings to not just instantly die to mmm dps then you let them quadrouple expand before pool while you sat on 2 base for 30 minutes. You complain about not affording gas, and then ignore the zerg gas needs, or in other words you spout hypocritical nonsense.

I don't enjoy seeing people ask for a more micro intensive game (many people saying that in other threads), and then complain when the game is more micro intensive (many people in recent threads about balance).

On June 21 2012 07:00 Entirety wrote:


Let me clear up some things. I was referring to a potential mixed Terran composition with Thors, Vikings, Ravens, Ghosts, etc. In this case, the MMM ball will not be huge, it will be a "support" army. You don't need a million Banelings to kill this, you will need in the order of 10 Banelings. If the Terran splits well, it will require 20 Banelings.

Well, 20 Banelings + your standard Brood Lord/Infestor/Queen/Corrupter/support army isn't going to require more than 4 bases. Either way, the Zerg can afford this because the Zerg arrives into the lategame after droning heavily while extremely safe with his 6 Queens.

So the Terran supposedly sits on 2 base for 30 minutes. In my personal opinion, if the Terran decides to take a 4th and 5th and 6th, etc., the Terran is playing into the Zerg's hands. The Zerg wants this to happen, the Zerg wants a lategame scenario where the Terran has ridiculous micro demands.

Yes, micro is a good aspect of the game. It is not good, however, when the Terran's micro demands are absurdly high in comparison to the Zerg's. The Zerg lategame army is simply better, so Terrans have to micro better to combat this. This is an example of "you have to severely outplay the Zerg in order to win", which isn't what this game is about. You shouldn't have to be a league above your opponent in order to win.

What if we play TvZ like we play TvP? Take a mass-upgraded bio ball with Medivac support and do constant dropping, poking, doom drops, etc. The goal is to stretch the Zerg's multitasking ability and eventually, the Zerg will fail to send the correct amount of units to one front. 4 Marauders and 8 Marines at the front, poking at the natural, while there is a 16 Marine drop in the main and a 4 Marauder + 4 Marine poke at the 3rd, all with Medivac support. Then, when the Zerg sends over Zerglings to deal with one area, pick up in the Medivac and leave.

fast three base without tanks is autoloss vs roach/baneling/quick mutas, not cool

I cant get my fast 3rd cc to work. It feels like even if use it as a macro cc its not worth it cos zerg economy will still be far ahead and it just delays my tech and my push too much. Even if i rush for a 3rd cc after my first set of hellions, It cant even be used cos I cant take my 3rd until tanks or alot of bunkers.

fast three base with hellion banshee pressure seems to be the best solution right now. Demuslim has been making it work really well.

On June 22 2012 06:32 Xequecal wrote:
The real problem is Terran has so many abilities that are incredibly overpowered in the early game, such as:

- Marines in general.
- The ability to allin with all your SCVs which can tank for your ranged, mass repair stuff, and bunker your opponent in if you win even one battle.
- Can 100% completely deny ALL scouting by the opponent until Lair/Robotics tech is out. You can't scout what units they have, how much gas is being mined, you can't even scout if they're making an expansion or not.

That the entire race suffers for it in the mid and late games. Marauders are 100/25 units that take 30 seconds to build from a 200/25/90 structure. (more like 250/25/90 when you count lost mining time) For comparison, Stalkers, a 125/50 unit, build out of a 150 mineral structure in 32 seconds. Marines take 25 seconds to make a 50 mineral unit, Zealots build in 28.

The problem is if Terran production wasn't crippled like this, they could autowin every game with proxied rax, pulling all their workers, and/or scouting denial. Thors got nerfed over and over to make up for the fact that you can proxy the factory then bring 16 SCVs to repair it. Vikings lose to literally any unit that can shoot back. Ravens are 200 gas because if they cost a sane amount of gas Protoss could never beat 1/1/1 ever. Banshees take 60 seconds to build, meanwhile Phoenix and Mutalisks build in half the time because if Banshees built in 30 seconds you could just put a bunker at your natural ramp and then make 4 of them before your opponent could even figure out whether or not you're expanding.

On June 20 2012 14:43 frezMki wrote:
Ouch ouch ouch

Faulty Logic @Alacast

Terran Deathball seems to be weaker because its like 1/4 of the Z's Gas.

We are fighting with like 1-1,5k Gas against 4-5k (not exactly but you know what i mean)

So if we win a Fight its gg,if we lose we keep reinforcing cheaper.

Build up an army which is worth the same and T willnot be considered as a weaker Lategame-Race in TvZ

On June 22 2012 14:51 goFLiP wrote:


That's the mindset of the hivemind one year ago. Back when MKP was winning with marines only and 1/1/1 was all over the place. It got figured it out and the metagame evolved. To say that marines and scvs are overpowered is the same as saying that the Earth is the center of the world. Outdated as fuck. Welcome to 2012. Marines are fine, so are scv's, and so is the entire early game of Terran.

The problem here is Terran's lategame blows compared to the other two races and now that lategame (in the case of TvZ) can be rushed and easily reached in 15 minutes without suffering any pressure at all.

On June 28 2012 03:13 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
I saw kawaiirice beat tgun with a lategame BC+raven+ghost transition , with nuke harass.

-Ghosts do 50 damage to queens now (snipe change) so maybe someone can come up with an early to midgame ghost push to repel creep and lower queen numbers.

On June 28 2012 04:05 Alabast wrote:



This right here. The potentials of this running through my head, as a zerg player, scares me

On June 28 2012 06:15 chaosftw wrote:
can you just shut up?
you seem so biased of your opinions. the queen nerf can barely make it damage one hellion as it roasts up all of zerg's drone way cost effectively.

btw i play toss

On June 28 2012 04:05 Alabast wrote:



This right here. The potentials of this running through my head, as a zerg player, scares me

On June 28 2012 06:15 chaosftw wrote:
can you just shut up?
you seem so biased of your opinions. the queen nerf can barely make it damage one hellion as it roasts up all of zerg's drone way cost effectively.

btw i play toss

On June 28 2012 06:28 Gyro_SC2 wrote:


6 Queens+wall can stop 12 hellion. Welcome in the new tvz.

On June 28 2012 04:05 Alabast wrote:



This right here. The potentials of this running through my head, as a zerg player, scares me

On June 28 2012 07:01 ][Primarch][ wrote:


? lol...and 6 Queens+wall could not do that pre-patch? It could and it did.

On June 28 2012 07:01 ][Primarch][ wrote:


? lol...and 6 Queens+wall could not do that pre-patch? It could and it did.

On June 28 2012 07:03 ][Primarch][ wrote:


You are scared of a terran pushing with ghosts in early-midgame? And you play Zerg?

On June 20 2012 05:27 Snowbear wrote:
I saw david kim also suggesting that terrans should use a raven in the mid game. There is 1 thing he and the others who give this advice, forget: a raven is 200 gas. Every terran knows that gas is a problem in the midgame. You need to push out before broodlords are out, and by getting a simple raven, you delay:
- medivacs
- tanks
- upgrades
- extra factories

Terrans need a ton of gas early-mid game:
- stim
- combat shield
- tanks
- siegetech
- factory
- startport
- medivacs
- bio upgrades
- tank +1 upgrade
- armory
- reactors

By cutting into these, your push before hive will be weaker + a raven isn't really helping in fights vs ling bling infestor.

On June 28 2012 07:01 ][Primarch][ wrote:


? lol...and 6 Queens+wall could not do that pre-patch? It could and it did.

On June 28 2012 10:02 Plethora wrote:
I think that a lot of the problem resulting from the patch has more to do with creep spread than actual defense.

EDIT: Just saw that QXC post. I'm definitely going to try that on for size.

On June 28 2012 20:48 Kull of Atlantis wrote:

Hello, where is the qxc post you are talking about?

On June 28 2012 21:40 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:


http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1516/The-QXC-Bunker-A-New-Way-to-Contain-Creep-in-TvZ/

I believe this is the post he is talking about, but maybe not. Idk anymore. I'm just lost about what to do. I want to give up Q_Q

On June 29 2012 14:07 Pandain wrote:
I think it would be so sick, encourage micro, diversity, and not be imbalanced if Ravens could cloak. '

Imagine how fun that would be to use(harrasing mineral lines with seeker missiles, trying to snipe overseers ).

And ravens would be a more useful asset, and you would have to micro them well.

On June 29 2012 14:02 sdecker32 wrote:
I have a question about openings. IT seems that if you open with hellions, you are investing a fair amount to JUST get map control, as we cannot really harass creep tumors any more. We can still try to run by, but this is fairly risky, and not a good gameplan. If we do not make those hellions, it it becomes pretty hard to see all ins coming, unless we get a lucky scan(right when units pop, if we just see a roach warren it will be tough to know if zerg is making 3 roaches or 10). So if we do a greedy 3 OC off 1 rax we are running a pretty big risk of getting all-inned, but if we make hellions we are setting ourself back just to get a bit of map control, without being able to deny creep. So we can either be safe on 2 bases(and try to do a timing to kill the zergs third, proboably havign to walk across a fair amount of creep) or we go to 3 OC with some risk, but it is also going to be hard to out greed the zerg if the zerg plays real greedy.

Is this an accurate read? or am i overstating the investment of the hellions, the risk of the 3 OC?

Or should we just always be very aggressive/or always super greedy?

On June 29 2012 16:25 cydial wrote:
IM CALLING IT RIGHT NOW, RESEARCH BUILDING ARMOR INTO MASS RAVEN (FUCKING AUTO TURRETS WITH 3 ARMOR MOTHER FUCKERS), IM DOING IT NOW)

On June 29 2012 16:25 cydial wrote:
IM CALLING IT RIGHT NOW, RESEARCH BUILDING ARMOR INTO MASS RAVEN (FUCKING AUTO TURRETS WITH 3 ARMOR MOTHER FUCKERS), IM DOING IT NOW)

On June 29 2012 17:13 Type|NarutO wrote:
In my opinion the problem doesn't lie within the timing window. The timing window to punish a Zerg is still the same as before as it wasn't changed by a range-buff. The problem lies within creating that opportunity. Usually Terrans could slow down creepspread. Against a good zerg, you could never shut it down completely, as he had the option to either invest in another queen and spread it nonetheless or move his spinecrawler foward.

The alternative to that would be a few roaches. Nowadays the Zerg doesn't need to invest in anything but queens. Queens can block the ramp, fight effectively against hellions and if the terran wants to invest into more than 4-6 hellions, queens will probably have enough energy to use a transfuse as well. Given all that, taking an early 3rd base is possible and I'd dare to say not even risky for Zerg. With an early third, Terran is forced to play a more aggressive game, because taking your own 3rd base will put Terran behind.

Zerg can effectively drone up and he'll be capable of having a very cheap yet cost efficient army with well upgraded lings earlier than a Terran with a fast 3rd, because our economy producing structure isn't our army producing structure. So the situation you will find yourself in is either

a) be agressive and potentially set back Zerg or put him on even ground if he reacts properly, or overcommit and find yourself in a nearly unwinnable situation since you can't pressure zerg at all.

b) stay defensive and macro up - you will have to build up infrastracture before you can actually take your 3rd, unless you want to take it with a planetary or really fortify it. Even so in the macro case you will find 50-60% of the map covered in creep, denying basically all timings you can potentially do with marine'/tank play.


Also Zergs nowadays learned a lot. They learned to use fast transitions and the real potential of their race. They now know they can crush timings with the more cost-inefficient muta/ling/bane because they will have the economy advantage early on and switch back into a more cost efficient army later on (infestor, ling + x) .

As a Terran, pushing when you see muta/ling/bane is unwise, because even though its not very cost-efficient, its very strong and hard to push in midgame. Earlier in Starcraft 2 Zergs sticked with that combo very long and it gets worse the higher the supply count gets, nowadays they know the switch timing and you can decide if you want to push and risk losing, or if you want to wait and potentially have to deal with an army nearly unbeatable without having 4 base and all given essential upgrades.

I'm not imbalance whining here, but right now it feels horrible to play against Zerg. An opportunity you see might be none or even come back at you. If you decide to macro up, you'll find yourself in a situation with a timing window that is probably less than a minute. You could play very well against Zerg and had options before that patch, but with the fact Zerg now has a good opportunity to

a) scout allins (faster overlords)
b) have better defence

you completely lose your ability to pressure Zerg midgame or create a threat with it even. Before the patch you could push and drop and Zerg either had to deal with it in a sequence OR at the same time.

On June 30 2012 04:09 ColonelSlur wrote:
It might be because I'm a lowely mid diamond, but my troubles with z are only vs compitent zergs. I normally dothis b o and it works amazing because of it's strong macro and it's strong pressure options.

10 depot
16 cc AT RAMP (where barrax is normally placed)
17 rax (at ramp, next to cc, complete the wall off)
18 depot
marine
double orbital
THIRD CC at ~21 supply, when double orbital is mprphing
lift off cc, land in natural, wall off again withanother rax, so your wall looks like depot/rax/rax
make a bunker at natramp
make only four marines
after that, wall in COMPLETELY in your nat with 4 barracks, total of six
make marine, andat around 8 minutes, push out with 20ish marines, rally your rax
take the center, clear creep, kill queens, and normally they wouldn't have speed yet (in diamond)
you CAN kill the third with this
even if you don't you get alot of drones, 3+ queens , and potential creep
not here's te thing: doup all four gas, double evo, get double upgrades, and ADD MORE RAX, for every 4 naked rax, you want 2 tech lab
transition into bio
get medivacs
and PUSH OUT every other minute with a seasonable force
if you keep your money low and your macro high, and if you have decent micro (pull mariens back, split) then this build would work well.

when you are pushing out, you can drop with reinforcements

this is just my take
the wall makes it so the zerg wont all in as much (4 1.5k health buildings and a full wall off)
when the zerg sees cc first they will double expand into their third and mass drones, not expecting pressure
7-8 minutes is when you push, andthat time they are still droning
with thispush, you have to have your multitasking ON POINT, landing your cc, getting upgrades/addons/medivacs all wghile microing your push

the wall off in your main, you lose around 3~seconds mining time from second cc but you guarentee no lngs coming in and mesing you up, or a four drone pull, etc

when i talk to other people about this build, they just say its stupid and they zerg wil make 20 lings and a mvoe me
thats why i get the wall up asap

critisism and discussion is desired

thank you
slur.918

On June 30 2012 04:27 ProfSc wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
transition into bio
get medivacs
and PUSH OUT every other minute with a seasonable force
if you keep your money low and your macro high, and if you have decent micro (pull mariens back, split) then this build would work well.

when you are pushing out, you can drop with reinforcements

this is just my take
the wall makes it so the zerg wont all in as much (4 1.5k health buildings and a full wall off)
when the zerg sees cc first they will double expand into their third and mass drones, not expecting pressure
7-8 minutes is when you push, andthat time they are still droning
with thispush, you have to have your multitasking ON POINT, landing your cc, getting upgrades/addons/medivacs all wghile microing your push

the wall off in your main, you lose around 3~seconds mining time from second cc but you guarentee no lngs coming in and mesing you up, or a four drone pull, etc

when i talk to other people about this build, they just say its stupid and they zerg wil make 20 lings and a mvoe me
thats why i get the wall up asap

critisism and discussion is desired

thank you
slur.918

Since you're pushing at 8 minutes, what do you do if the zerg players goes for a roach/ling/bling all-in with a heavier roach composition, aiming to outrange your bunkers and break down your wall? What if your opponent goes roach/ling defensively because they see so many raxes? What if your opponent just scouts you with overlords, sees you're going pure naked marine, 3 OC?

I, for one, would like to see a replay of this working because while you go through some possible Zerg replies with your analysis at the end of the post, I think there are more nodes that you may not be taking into account.

On June 30 2012 05:02 jdsowa wrote:
Let's have some perspective here. Terrans went something like 20 months relying on one successful unit composition because they didn't have any reason to think more broadly. Now, they've had 2 months of difficulty and the sky is falling and the game is broken. Raven/thor(+tank) is your infestor/broodlord. Late game is about: 1) gas heavy high hp units 2) siege units and 3) splash damage. If you don't have all 3 you are not going to win. MMM is not going to cut it. If you can take advantage of some early/mid game timings, great. But it's not a long term solution. The better people get at defending and reading timings, the more games are going late.

On June 30 2012 05:23 Filter wrote:


#1 We get Battle Cruisers (that lose to corrupters) thors (that lose to zerglings/roaches/infestors/broodlords etc) and ghosts (nerfed) for our high gas units. Ravens are okay, but certainly not on mass.

#2 Our siege unit isn't very good lategame, Tanks do more damage to our own stuff than zergs against lategame ling spam/broodlord attack.

#3 See #2 and replace siege unit with splash unit

Zergs have used two styles of play, ling/bling/muta and ling/infestor into broodlord for basically the entire starcraft 2 timeframe.

Terrans have used reaper openers (nerfed) bunker rush openers (nerfed) marine/tank plays (nerfed) mass ghost play against lategame (nerfed) hellion openers (nerfed) banshee openers (nerfed) so don't say we haven't used different build orders or play, there's a giant pile of terran stuff that has been nerfed after a major tourney or metagame shift.

At this point TvZ is extremely frustrating to play, and as somebody that has played Terran for 2 years and Zerg for about 2 months my Zerg is miles better than my Terran despite the fact I don't understand a lot of the unit interactions and fine details of the Zerg race and matchups.

Terran uses bio because bio is extremely predictable in how it will play out, and at no point in the game really can you just straight up lose because you have bio units. The same can not be said for mechanical or air stuff.

Terran should make more allin again the zerg ! Zerg players are too overconfident about early game and If more terrans start playing allin strategy then the zergs will have to play less greedy.

On June 30 2012 08:46 Talack wrote:
It's about time for the ghost nerf to be reverted completely.

Terran needs some "beat everything" units like zerg has. We just simply cannot play this matchup anymore with all our combinations of units being beaten by infestors. You can't out-macro, you can't out-greed and you just simply cannot harass them anymore without taking a big loss or being extremely succeptable to an all-in.

This is unbearable, TvZ used to be the best matchup in this game and now it's just broken.

Everyone screaming "ravens!" need to get informed. Fungal outranges missiles, so in theory ravens will never work. And even if you DO get missiles off you are guaranteed to lose every single raven in the process, and you can't really afford to lose a ton of 200 gas units like that.

On June 30 2012 13:14 Xequecal wrote:


They could just make Broodlords psionic. Having Ghosts counter Ultralisks is pretty stupid, as against those your tanks are actually useful.

mass ravens, especially paired with BC's, own the shit out of infestors, or anything zerg has. I'm not suggesting ravens or bc's at all here, I kind of feel they are near impossible to get to, at least in the current metagame, all I'm saying here is I disagree with your opinion that ravens, if somehow gotten out (which is a big if), are strong as fuck. I don't think ravens are the answer, personally, but if you could get them out, they are definitely stronger than some FG.

On June 30 2012 15:30 Talack wrote:


Or make it so that infestors no longer counter vikings...

That would do wonders for terran's late game. In addition to a large raven buff.



i believe there has beena few games recently where infestors beat mass ravens without breaking a sweat. even mass bcs paired with ravens....

So where are your theories comming from? And where is exactly is this mass raven/bc army comming from?

On July 01 2012 03:04 LagT_T wrote:


Bomber used mass raven pretty effectively against Ostojiy

On June 20 2012 04:36 RedMosquito wrote:
terran needs a late game and then the problem should be fixed. every race should be relatively balanced at all stages of the game. i dont buy this asymetric balance crap.

On July 01 2012 10:17 Wildmoon wrote:


Well, this is not possible. It didn't happen in BW and won't happen in SC2 too. I still think the current late game terran is too weak though.

Lately, there is talk of Zerg being OP.

On July 01 2012 11:11 xOny wrote:


last month it was "Protoss OP" and now it's zerg

do you terrans ever stop? just move on to the next flavor-of-the-month thing to complain about?

On July 01 2012 14:02 Orek wrote:
It took more than 1 year for Zerg players to abandon Mutalisk in favor of infestor in ZvT.
Ling/Bling/Muta used to be THE way to go. Today, we don't see this style nearly as often.

It took several months for Terran players to realize that 1rax FE double gas reactor hellion is better than 13gas reactor hellion opening. Most games started with reactor hellion in 2011, but more players started to use 1rax FE version in 2012.

Likewise, It will take several months to figure out what the best way to play against mass queen early game style is.
Just like Zerg players basically abandoned Mutalisk, Terran might have to abandon hellion openings all together.
Or, just like reactor hellion evolved into more economic style, only slight adjustments might be necessary.

It has been only 2 months since the patch, too early for the conclusion.
In transition, many Zerg players were reluctant to switch from ling/bling/mutalisk, a style which had even won GSL.
Right now, many Terran players are reluctant to switch from reactor hellion, a style which has been working for a long time.

You CANNOT contain creep with 4-6 hellions any more. Terran needs to admit this first, then find out the solution.
Mutalisk COULD NOT do enough economic damage. Zerg admitted this fact and moved on to infestor.
We will see...

On July 01 2012 14:22 Sovern wrote:
The problem is that Terrans aren't willing to rely on their strengths and are skimping out on all of the possibility's of early game aggression besides using the old builds that rely on weak units such as banshees and hellions. If a terran decides to go 1 rax 3CC and win in a straight up macro game than hes throwing away his early to mid game advantage and letting the zerg tech up. Furhtermore, going 1 rax fe into hellion/banshee is weak and still leaves the pacing of the game in the zergs hands as hellions and banshees are not robust units and are fragile, they're support units. However, Maruaders paired with hellions are cost efficient vs all of zergs T1 units including queens and spine crawlers as Marauders are extremely good and hellions deal with speedlings and even banelings quite well while marauders deal with roachs, banelings, and queens cost efficiently.

Personally, I'm almost 100% sure that a solid bunker at the third or front of the ramp to deny scouting zerglings and very fast thirds into a 2 base hellion/marauder in case the zerg gets their third by breaking the bunker with roachs, speedlings, or queens would be the answer to what the zergs are currently doing with the fast thirds and fast teching. Hellion/marauder is very cost efficient vs all of zergs pre lair units and is also excellent vs queens and defending against all ins while delaying the hell out of any early thirds.

Furthermore, terran can slow down zergs teching with a 2 base marauder/hellion build while grabbing a third and transitioning into marauder/hellion/thor/medivac for a very aggressive mid game into late game, or into marine/marauder/tank/medivac for a less aggressive but still robust unit composition. Grabbing a third faster than the zerg while denying their third also allows you to be able to afford ghosts in time to emp infestors and multiple starports to fend of broodlord infestor putting the terran ahead when the game starts to transition into the late game.

Terrans just need to experiment more and focus on their strengths which are their very cost efficient early game units and their ability to deny greedy expansions with these units.

TLDR, Hellions by themselves are weak vs anything but speedlings, MM is weak against anything besides zergs playing economically that don't make banelings, marauder/hellion deals with all of zergs all ins and is very aggressive and cost efficient vs zergs t1. Terrans can get ahead by relying on a strong & cost efficient early game unit composition such as marauder/hellion, which extends the early game, afterwards grabbing a third faster than the zergs and building up a strong unit composition consisting of marauder/hellion/thor/medivac and late game relying on ghosts/vikings a long with the aforementioned units.

On July 01 2012 14:22 Sovern wrote:
The problem is that Terrans aren't willing to rely on their strengths and are skimping out on all of the possibility's of early game aggression besides using the old builds that rely on weak units such as banshees and hellions. If a terran decides to go 1 rax 3CC and win in a straight up macro game than hes throwing away his early to mid game advantage and letting the zerg tech up. Furhtermore, going 1 rax fe into hellion/banshee is weak and still leaves the pacing of the game in the zergs hands as hellions and banshees are not robust units and are fragile, they're support units. However, Maruaders paired with hellions are cost efficient vs all of zergs T1 units including queens and spine crawlers as Marauders are extremely good and hellions deal with speedlings and even banelings quite well while marauders deal with roachs, banelings, and queens cost efficiently.

Personally, I'm almost 100% sure that a solid bunker at the third or front of the ramp to deny scouting zerglings and very fast thirds into a 2 base hellion/marauder in case the zerg gets their third by breaking the bunker with roachs, speedlings, or queens would be the answer to what the zergs are currently doing with the fast thirds and fast teching. Hellion/marauder is very cost efficient vs all of zergs pre lair units and is also excellent vs queens and defending against all ins while delaying the hell out of any early thirds.

Furthermore, terran can slow down zergs teching with a 2 base marauder/hellion build while grabbing a third and transitioning into marauder/hellion/thor/medivac for a very aggressive mid game into late game, or into marine/marauder/tank/medivac for a less aggressive but still robust unit composition. Grabbing a third faster than the zerg while denying their third also allows you to be able to afford ghosts in time to emp infestors and multiple starports to fend of broodlord infestor putting the terran ahead when the game starts to transition into the late game.

Terrans just need to experiment more and focus on their strengths which are their very cost efficient early game units and their ability to deny greedy expansions with these units.

TLDR, Hellions by themselves are weak vs anything but speedlings, MM is weak against anything besides zergs playing economically that don't make banelings, marauder/hellion deals with all of zergs all ins and is very aggressive and cost efficient vs zergs t1. Terrans can get ahead by relying on a strong & cost efficient early game unit composition such as marauder/hellion, which extends the early game, afterwards grabbing a third faster than the zergs and building up a strong unit composition consisting of marauder/hellion/thor/medivac and late game relying on ghosts/vikings a long with the aforementioned units.

On July 01 2012 14:37 goFLiP wrote:


It's how the metagame shifts that brings out different builds to life. Currently, the queen buff took the metagame into this situation where terran is literally fucked unless Blizzard does something or magically the metagame shifts back into the old TvZ where only one queen was made per base. Because 3OC and some other gimmicky timing pushes are different ways to avoid the fact that Terran's lategame is just pathetic, and the current metagame for TvZ is "hey, lets play late game".

The same thing happened in BW for 10 years and patches were really spaced between each other, so it let the metagame shift through every possible way. Right now, the patches are too close so it doesn't really let the metagame mature enough to develop the matchup to its fullest.

On July 01 2012 15:00 scph wrote:
Let's look at this 6 queen 3 hatch free drone phase that is being talked about so much. I would argue that this in itself is very "all in". It's an economic all in that obviously if terran doesn't commit much to to stop it, they'll eventually lose. But what if you just 2 base all in? Don't start with this bullshit "but I don't wanna all in every tvz game".

If zerg 2 base all inned you, what would you do? Defend it, probably by putting down several bunkers and producing out a stronger army than you normally would. You react to it. If zerg is greedy, then react to it. Again, idra has argued that terran doesn't have to play an economy catchup game. Terrans are free to keep up the pressure with stronger forces or even go all in. It's like zerg playing 3 base and seeing terran go 3occ, and then adding another base to keep up. WTF is the point when you could all in there instead. You see a greedy economic all in, all in yourself and win.