[D] TvZ Metagame patch1.4.3.2 - Page 14

On July 07 2012 05:41 Big J wrote:
Anybody tried to just match greed with greed?
I'm not a Terran player, but I have been having a lot of success in custom games against players up to Master level with 1rax 4CC (so 3 additional) into 6+ rax mass marine, into double ups+stim+shields more rax(and reactors), third with PF around 11min and then transitioning into 4starport BCs at 15min(+double upgrades) + 4th base.

I mean, right now most Zergs won't attack you very early, even more, 4CC can scout (scan) and hold roach/bling attacks (on maps where you can emergency fully wall with mass ebay, through mass mules).
Also the build is really easy to execute imo and I would like to see a "real" Terran do this. Someone who doesn't trade 5times badly with marines, before the ten "surprise" 2/2 BCs yamato through his "unbeatable" army. (though I have quite a bit of trouble against the earlier ultralisk attacks - I guess I should really add some marauders)

On July 07 2012 06:19 Sepi wrote:


If you put on pressure marine you can still expand to your third around 11 min or before. But denying fast 4th is prety much impossible, and hes 5th would be pretty easy to take too (FE. daybreak) whit 3-4cc and transitioning to this kind of build. And how are you going to get the gas off anyway to build up the infrastructure and air ups whit possible tanks (if heavy bling/inf), and medvacs. One thing is MMMH, you will save a lot of gas, but we all know that its very fragile (suprisingly) to fungals.

I was just coming to ultraliks, so anyone whit brain will scout your build eventually, and whit mass air there is so much risk and lesser reward (Speaking of bad fungals/neural/Infested t/ mass corruptor). You just dont have the time to mass up your "unbeatable" army against good Z and prevent him getting his full macro gear on and then countering your army.

Banshees could be implemented to put pressure, but when you have the numbers that you ACTUALLY could make damage, he should have his fungals and other AA ready.

So i do not see this working. In maps where you can be very defensive like ohana it is a choice, but still i would say that its way too risky and hard to pull off against GOOD zerg.

[Edit]

Also bling/roach allins are so hard to hold, possible, but so hard.

On July 07 2012 09:47 Big J wrote:


Well, the whole idea is to NOT put any pressure on early, but instead build as many SCVs as he builds drones in the first 9-10mins and have a better saturation at that time.
I mean, you can play it however you want from the 4CC opening on, I have done it with turtlemech, with MMM and with classic MarineTank, but right now I prefer to just go BC, because Zergs dont go spire or agressive these days.

On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.

It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.

Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL.

On July 07 2012 19:48 NEEDZMOAR wrote:



to be fair I too tend to see a lot of top terrans in various matches floating a LOT of gas, more than enough for a raven.

On July 07 2012 23:05 Lurk wrote:
I'm not convinced that 3cc or 4cc straight up macro games are the answer here. The zerg has its strengths in the late game at tier3 and 3+ bases, while terran has an advantage earlier on, especially in the midgame.

So why throw away your advantage and fight the zerg where he wants to fight you ? I'm not saying that you shouldn't play macro games as terran i'm just saying you should take advantage of the strong midgame and to enter the lategame with a slight edge (maybe by denying a forth, sniping a few drones here and there, ...). Opening 3cc or 4cc is just asking the zerg to drone hard, get 4 bases and hive tech without even so much as make a ling. And your own tech is far too slow to take any advantage of the midgame, since there will literally be no midgame. And apart from that, the zerg can even try to punish your greedy opening with a roach/ling/bling timing that isn't even allin at this point.

On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.

It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.

Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL.

On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:


Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it.

Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective.

On July 08 2012 02:21 mosfet wrote:
Has anyone fooled around with Nathanias' "asshole build"? See it here, and Nathanias talks about it in this reddit thread. It's basically just 4 port banshee. It looks like a a FE into mech, until you throw down 4 starports. If unscouted, it pretty much autowins vs the 4-6 queen style. It gets ugly against 2 base baneling all-ins, but you can still turn it into a bace race, where they have no anti-air and you have floating buildings. I feel like if this becomes a popular build, we'll see zergs slow down the economy in favour of more defence.

On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:


From Blizzard Patch Note
•Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
•We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
•We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.

Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today.
It is still better than not working even slightly.
Step Blizzard took was
Step1. 60-40
Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now)
Step 3. 50-50

instead of,
Step 1. 60-40
Step 2. 55-45
Step 3. 50-50

Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean.
People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game.
We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast.

On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:


Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player).
A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec.
Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick.
One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good.