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On July 07 2012 05:41 Big J wrote:
Anybody tried to just match greed with greed?
I'm not a Terran player, but I have been having a lot of success in custom games against players up to Master level with 1rax 4CC (so 3 additional) into 6+ rax mass marine, into double ups+stim+shields more rax(and reactors), third with PF around 11min and then transitioning into 4starport BCs at 15min(+double upgrades) + 4th base.
I mean, right now most Zergs won't attack you very early, even more, 4CC can scout (scan) and hold roach/bling attacks (on maps where you can emergency fully wall with mass ebay, through mass mules).
Also the build is really easy to execute imo and I would like to see a "real" Terran do this. Someone who doesn't trade 5times badly with marines, before the ten "surprise" 2/2 BCs yamato through his "unbeatable" army. (though I have quite a bit of trouble against the earlier ultralisk attacks - I guess I should really add some marauders)
If you put on pressure marine you can still expand to your third around 11 min or before. But denying fast 4th is prety much impossible, and hes 5th would be pretty easy to take too (FE. daybreak) whit 3-4cc and transitioning to this kind of build. And how are you going to get the gas off anyway to build up the infrastructure and air ups whit possible tanks (if heavy bling/inf), and medvacs. One thing is MMMH, you will save a lot of gas, but we all know that its very fragile (suprisingly) to fungals.
I was just coming to ultraliks, so anyone whit brain will scout your build eventually, and whit mass air there is so much risk and lesser reward (Speaking of bad fungals/neural/Infested t/ mass corruptor). You just dont have the time to mass up your "unbeatable" army against good Z and prevent him getting his full macro gear on and then countering your army.
Banshees could be implemented to put pressure, but when you have the numbers that you ACTUALLY could make damage, he should have his fungals and other AA ready.
So i do not see this working. In maps where you can be very defensive like ohana it is a choice, but still i would say that its way too risky and hard to pull off against GOOD zerg.
[Edit]
Also bling/roach allins are so hard to hold, possible, but so hard.
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On July 07 2012 06:19 Sepi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 05:41 Big J wrote:
Anybody tried to just match greed with greed?
I'm not a Terran player, but I have been having a lot of success in custom games against players up to Master level with 1rax 4CC (so 3 additional) into 6+ rax mass marine, into double ups+stim+shields more rax(and reactors), third with PF around 11min and then transitioning into 4starport BCs at 15min(+double upgrades) + 4th base.
I mean, right now most Zergs won't attack you very early, even more, 4CC can scout (scan) and hold roach/bling attacks (on maps where you can emergency fully wall with mass ebay, through mass mules).
Also the build is really easy to execute imo and I would like to see a "real" Terran do this. Someone who doesn't trade 5times badly with marines, before the ten "surprise" 2/2 BCs yamato through his "unbeatable" army. (though I have quite a bit of trouble against the earlier ultralisk attacks - I guess I should really add some marauders) If you put on pressure marine you can still expand to your third around 11 min or before. But denying fast 4th is prety much impossible, and hes 5th would be pretty easy to take too (FE. daybreak) whit 3-4cc and transitioning to this kind of build. And how are you going to get the gas off anyway to build up the infrastructure and air ups whit possible tanks (if heavy bling/inf), and medvacs. One thing is MMMH, you will save a lot of gas, but we all know that its very fragile (suprisingly) to fungals. I was just coming to ultraliks, so anyone whit brain will scout your build eventually, and whit mass air there is so much risk and lesser reward (Speaking of bad fungals/neural/Infested t/ mass corruptor). You just dont have the time to mass up your "unbeatable" army against good Z and prevent him getting his full macro gear on and then countering your army. Banshees could be implemented to put pressure, but when you have the numbers that you ACTUALLY could make damage, he should have his fungals and other AA ready. So i do not see this working. In maps where you can be very defensive like ohana it is a choice, but still i would say that its way too risky and hard to pull off against GOOD zerg. [Edit] Also bling/roach allins are so hard to hold, possible, but so hard.
Well, the whole idea is to NOT put any pressure on early, but instead build as many SCVs as he builds drones in the first 9-10mins and have a better saturation at that time.
I mean, you can play it however you want from the 4CC opening on, I have done it with turtlemech, with MMM and with classic MarineTank, but right now I prefer to just go BC, because Zergs dont go spire or agressive these days.
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On July 07 2012 09:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 06:19 Sepi wrote:On July 07 2012 05:41 Big J wrote:
Anybody tried to just match greed with greed?
I'm not a Terran player, but I have been having a lot of success in custom games against players up to Master level with 1rax 4CC (so 3 additional) into 6+ rax mass marine, into double ups+stim+shields more rax(and reactors), third with PF around 11min and then transitioning into 4starport BCs at 15min(+double upgrades) + 4th base.
I mean, right now most Zergs won't attack you very early, even more, 4CC can scout (scan) and hold roach/bling attacks (on maps where you can emergency fully wall with mass ebay, through mass mules).
Also the build is really easy to execute imo and I would like to see a "real" Terran do this. Someone who doesn't trade 5times badly with marines, before the ten "surprise" 2/2 BCs yamato through his "unbeatable" army. (though I have quite a bit of trouble against the earlier ultralisk attacks - I guess I should really add some marauders) If you put on pressure marine you can still expand to your third around 11 min or before. But denying fast 4th is prety much impossible, and hes 5th would be pretty easy to take too (FE. daybreak) whit 3-4cc and transitioning to this kind of build. And how are you going to get the gas off anyway to build up the infrastructure and air ups whit possible tanks (if heavy bling/inf), and medvacs. One thing is MMMH, you will save a lot of gas, but we all know that its very fragile (suprisingly) to fungals. I was just coming to ultraliks, so anyone whit brain will scout your build eventually, and whit mass air there is so much risk and lesser reward (Speaking of bad fungals/neural/Infested t/ mass corruptor). You just dont have the time to mass up your "unbeatable" army against good Z and prevent him getting his full macro gear on and then countering your army. Banshees could be implemented to put pressure, but when you have the numbers that you ACTUALLY could make damage, he should have his fungals and other AA ready. So i do not see this working. In maps where you can be very defensive like ohana it is a choice, but still i would say that its way too risky and hard to pull off against GOOD zerg. [Edit] Also bling/roach allins are so hard to hold, possible, but so hard. Well, the whole idea is to NOT put any pressure on early, but instead build as many SCVs as he builds drones in the first 9-10mins and have a better saturation at that time. I mean, you can play it however you want from the 4CC opening on, I have done it with turtlemech, with MMM and with classic MarineTank, but right now I prefer to just go BC, because Zergs dont go spire or agressive these days.
Can you hold 8:45 roach ling bling timing with 4cc? it isn't easy with 3cc
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everyday i check the forums to see "developers agree, zerg too strong! patches incomming"
and everyday i'm disapointed. this matchup is f'ing hopeless. you cannot harass, you cannot match the late game and even if you do you'll be behind because of them getting their econ up 10+minutes ahead of yours. and all the zerg needs to do to hold off any sort of aggression at all, is to actually make some units. and the only time your aggression works is when they decide to play as greedy as possible and make nothing and you're like "surprise".
User was warned for this post
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Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL.
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I see a lot of complaining about the Raven, but the raven costs one refinery and 3 SCVs mining gas for a little while, which is roughly equivelant to a scan. So if you've ever scanned to detect (eg: kill off creep tumours) you are an idiot for not building a raven.
P.S. I still think with things as they are Zerg is stronger, but I'm hopeful that the problems can be solved with strategey instead of a patch.
P.P.S. I hate broodlords so much, except when I'm Zerg.
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On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL.
Hey Belial why do you hang out in Terran whine threads and tell people not to whine? I agree with you somewhat, but I think your missing the picture of why people at lower levels are un happy (for the same reason Terrans at lower levels are unhappy vs Toss): it seems so much easier for the Zerg now to get monster eco and creep spread if your not WAY better than them.
So really, dont come in these threads without having the slightest idea of what your talking about. Play terran for a few days, and you ll see what i mean. I switched from Z 1 month and a half ago and trust me, this change is a real pain in the ass. The whole early game coin flip that your talking about is because YOU DIDNT KNOW HOW TO SCOUT. The match up was WAY MORE balanced before.
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^ This isn't supposed to be a terran whine thread, and there are legitimate posts in here trying to develop terran (ie ravens, bcs, mmm, etc).
I find the recent mmm play kind of weird, it doesn't seem particularly strong when I play against it but maybe because it's geared against 6 queen fast third infestors fast hive into ultras, and i go 5 queen fast third standard mutas into late hive, bl, basically like people did a year ago.
I have played Terran, and I'm not denying that Terran is UP or Zerg isn't OP or that Terran is harder. But balance whines are a huge turn-off. And I wasn't talking about there being a problem with all-ins, which was a coin flip to scout with Zerg because of overlord speed on many maps, especially like cloud Kingdom where you simply can't get an overlord by their main to sac, safely, but with reactor hellion into fast third. And the match-up was not balanced before, Terran dominated zerg for a long time.
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On June 20 2012 06:55 EnE wrote:
@Above:
Source or bullshit. If you float gas at 12 mins, then a high level terran WOULDNT GET THE 3RD OR FOURTH REFINERY.
So, whether terran is starved for gas midgame or not, I think you're still talking shit since not floating gas is as easy as not mining too much gas.
to be fair I too tend to see a lot of top terrans in various matches floating a LOT of gas, more than enough for a raven.
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On July 07 2012 19:48 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 06:55 EnE wrote:
@Above:
Source or bullshit. If you float gas at 12 mins, then a high level terran WOULDNT GET THE 3RD OR FOURTH REFINERY.
So, whether terran is starved for gas midgame or not, I think you're still talking shit since not floating gas is as easy as not mining too much gas. to be fair I too tend to see a lot of top terrans in various matches floating a LOT of gas, more than enough for a raven.
But thats at points where Ravens would do shit. Ravens are not good units to fight back creep because at the point where they become useful the creep is so far advanced that this would be hopeless . You need to stop the Zerg from starting to get 10-20 active tumors ( and advancing across the whole damn map in a few minutes ) there's no way of stopping it without or with a Raven once he gets there.
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This thread just refuses to fucking die.
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I'm not convinced that 3cc or 4cc straight up macro games are the answer here. The zerg has its strengths in the late game at tier3 and 3+ bases, while terran has an advantage earlier on, especially in the midgame.
So why throw away your advantage and fight the zerg where he wants to fight you ? I'm not saying that you shouldn't play macro games as terran i'm just saying you should take advantage of the strong midgame and to enter the lategame with a slight edge (maybe by denying a forth, sniping a few drones here and there, ...). Opening 3cc or 4cc is just asking the zerg to drone hard, get 4 bases and hive tech without even so much as make a ling. And your own tech is far too slow to take any advantage of the midgame, since there will literally be no midgame. And apart from that, the zerg can even try to punish your greedy opening with a roach/ling/bling timing that isn't even allin at this point.
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On July 07 2012 23:05 Lurk wrote:
I'm not convinced that 3cc or 4cc straight up macro games are the answer here. The zerg has its strengths in the late game at tier3 and 3+ bases, while terran has an advantage earlier on, especially in the midgame.
So why throw away your advantage and fight the zerg where he wants to fight you ? I'm not saying that you shouldn't play macro games as terran i'm just saying you should take advantage of the strong midgame and to enter the lategame with a slight edge (maybe by denying a forth, sniping a few drones here and there, ...). Opening 3cc or 4cc is just asking the zerg to drone hard, get 4 bases and hive tech without even so much as make a ling. And your own tech is far too slow to take any advantage of the midgame, since there will literally be no midgame. And apart from that, the zerg can even try to punish your greedy opening with a roach/ling/bling timing that isn't even allin at this point.
Thats exactly what i think, but to achieve that you need a LOT of gas. As spoken above this bc tactics, u cant do that that while having very strong midgame army whit able to push.
And if you lose that lategame fight its over for you. Its not over for z who has stacked up larva ups, and a big bank. U take 10000 hours to make that army again, as he can just press larvae and spam. So no that will not work terran isnt designed for that. U cannot let ur opponent to get his dream lategame and army comp freely, and u should try to avoid it at all cost.
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On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL.
Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it.
Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective.
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United States4883 Posts
I will add my own experience:
To any zerg that goes for a fast 3rd, I've found that an early mass marine attack (7:00-8:30) will completely reverse the situation and cause the zerg to either lose the hatchery or make a TON of zerglings to hold it off. Using 3CC followup, I always reach saturation at about the same time as the zerg player.
That being said, I think if terran just opts for more early pressure, the mid- to late-game becomes infinitely easier. Like in PvZ where protoss can feign a fast 4-gate into expanding to a 3rd to DELAY full drone saturation, terran can attack progressively earlier and earlier to delay that quick drone saturation.
It's a little bit of a different story with an aggressive zerg, something I haven't really fully mapped out yet. But for sure, macro zerg can be denied very easily with just an earlier push + 3rd CC and constant macro.
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On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective.
From Blizzard Patch Note
•Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
•We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
•We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.
Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today.
It is still better than not working even slightly.
Step Blizzard took was
Step1. 60-40
Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now)
Step 3. 50-50
instead of,
Step 1. 60-40
Step 2. 55-45
Step 3. 50-50
Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean.
People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game.
We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast.
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Has anyone fooled around with Nathanias' "asshole build"? See it here, and Nathanias talks about it in this reddit thread. It's basically just 4 port banshee. It looks like a a FE into mech, until you throw down 4 starports. If unscouted, it pretty much autowins vs the 4-6 queen style. It gets ugly against 2 base baneling all-ins, but you can still turn it into a bace race, where they have no anti-air and you have floating buildings. I feel like if this becomes a popular build, we'll see zergs slow down the economy in favour of more defence.
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On July 08 2012 02:21 mosfet wrote:Has anyone fooled around with Nathanias' "asshole build"? See it here, and Nathanias talks about it in this reddit thread. It's basically just 4 port banshee. It looks like a a FE into mech, until you throw down 4 starports. If unscouted, it pretty much autowins vs the 4-6 queen style. It gets ugly against 2 base baneling all-ins, but you can still turn it into a bace race, where they have no anti-air and you have floating buildings. I feel like if this becomes a popular build, we'll see zergs slow down the economy in favour of more defence.
With the new Ovie Speed this will probably only work on Maps with bigger mains.
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On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast.
Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player).
A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec.
Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick.
One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good.
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On July 08 2012 05:36 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2012 01:27 Orek wrote:On July 08 2012 01:14 Figgy wrote:On July 07 2012 16:23 Belial88 wrote:
Dude, quit with the balance whining. The queen range was increased just a little bit so that the early game wouldn't be a coinflip, and Zerg would get owned by reactor hellion into fast third in a macro game or all-ins that they can't see and need a ton of preparation against even minor pressure. Maybe Zerg is OP, but it's definitely not OP at diamond or low masters. And how many of the games you play, does the Zerg even go 6 queen? 6 queen is only done as a reaction against 1 rax FE as well - so many Terrans on ladder still do 'bad' (as in not used by pro players) openings and then complain about balance, or do 1 rax FE and the zerg does not make 6 queens and then they lose and QQ.
It shouldn't be a surprise that Terrans are struggling lategame against Zerg when they were so used to opening all sorts of pressures that would kill zerg, or reactor hellion denying zerg's third while they get a faster third up. It will take time, just like Toss got owned in lategame after months of gateway all-ins. Give it some time.
Personally, my win rate went down from 70% to only around 50% after the patch (mid-masters zerg), so chill. If you aren't GM, don't worry about it, improve your play, post your rep on TL. Only foreigners were dying to non-allin hellion runbys. The real issue now is no way to deny the 3rd from going up or denying creep. Both of which Hellions could do excellently because they could kite queens before they can reach the 3rd base on most maps to defend it. Ignoring the balance aspect of the patch, TvZ is now much, much more boring to watch. Both players macro for 15 minutes before anything actually happens unless there is a heavy all in from either side. Before there was a lot more action, and TvZ was still at 50%. The queen change was ridiculous from a viewer perspective. From Blizzard Patch Note •Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes. •We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT. •We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game. Blizzard achieved the goals with the patch. In fact, patch worked so well that "slightly" in patch note means nothing today. It is still better than not working even slightly. Step Blizzard took was Step1. 60-40 Step 2. 40-60 (We are here now) Step 3. 50-50 instead of, Step 1. 60-40 Step 2. 55-45 Step 3. 50-50 Don't take numbers literally, but you get what I mean. People say it was balanced before patch, but to Blizzard's eye and statistics, it was "slightly" favored for Terran early game. We will see how Blizzard goes about this after several months. It is only 2 months since patch. It took 15 months for Blizzard to remove close position on The Shatterd Temple despite Zerg was obviously struggling on that position. They work faster today, but not that fast. Because of the exponential nature of SC's economy, patches affecting the early game may lead to huge differences in the late game. Terrans success against Z seems to rely on early game damage. Basing balance on early game is pretty much impossible, since even minor changes have huge effects (nerfing queens range again, would make early game TvZ coinflippy again - not very enjoyable for the Zerg player). A solution to this can only be a buff to (a) terrans economy/production or (b) buff some Terran late game tec. Because Terran has not the explosive production of Zerg, Terran cannot macro like a Zerg. A Terran macroing hard can be all-inned pretty easy, because a Terran cannot produce an army on demand that quick. One major problem in current TvZ late game seems the power of broodfestor, because the only viable counter - vikings - can be countered by infestors pretty good.
TvZ was never "coinflippy" before the patch, in fact it was by far the most balanced (and most fun to watch IMO) match-up, now, even from a Zerg perspective, it seems as if Terran is always behind, from the beginning to the end of the match.
EDIT: Oh and trying to nerf/buff zerg/terran late-game units just to justify this terrible balance change is a bad idea, because it'll just throw everything in the air again, and nobody wants that. I wish Blizzard just left things as they were...
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EPT
