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On July 03 2012 10:06 Blyadischa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 04:36 chaosftw wrote:
Let me make a clear statement on this topic...
if you look at the graph and charts made for the most of starcraft 2 and it's existence, it has always favoured terran significantly. Now considering that fact, and how many zerg players have had to work harder to stay in the pro scene, and that terran was arguably had the upper hand at those times, this means that zerg players were just working harder.
With that in mind, now that it can be said that, not because of the minor buffs zerg recieved and the new play styles zerg has adapted to, terran players will need to either a) discover new play styles, timings b) they need to work and practice more in the zvt match up.
Now you can't just split marines and win. you actually have to play this so called RTS game.
thank you
EDIT: Current JUNE 2012 Win rates.
http://minus.com/mLvjZlHez/1g Terran has maintained win rates after every nerf. P and Z only improve when a significant buff or change to the matchup occurs
yes, because those nerfs were not enough. The balance team, if they were to make more changes, would try and balance the game, not make it favourable to one race. Still, over time the nerfs caught up as you can see its results. Even now you can say it still favours terran looking at the graph and balance rates.
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On July 03 2012 09:19 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 16:29 Phye wrote:
Terran late game. That is all. And don't talk to me about ravens or BC. Corruptor is the almighty anti-air unit. Any air unit will be totally useless against Corruptor/Infestor. IMO, the infestor is the problem because it has no hard counter, Ghosts are useless against them because Overseers dont require any food and zerglings are (too) fast and will punish bad ghost positioning way harder than terran can punish bad infestor positioning. That's not true. PDD probably messes up corruptors more than any other unit. In a very lategame scenario TvZ, Infestors can be zoned out by Marauders, Tanks, Raven Auto Turrets, or some other units, and split Ravens can support Vikings very effectively versus corruptors, using PDD or even missiles to let Vikings burn through Corruptors. It's definitely no simple brainless move, but can be quite effective against corruptor/infestor.
The second you overmake Air or Anti Air Units against Zerg pure Lings will overwhelm and clean up everything and then just counterattack with them .
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I'm sorry to ask if it was repeated but what exactly is the build that is best for the current situation? Is it the 1 rax into 2 more orbitals? Because everytime I go for this greedy build, I end up getting all ins and dying to them. If anyone can help me out with the current builds right now, I'll really appreciate it.
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^ If you watch pro terrans, you'll see they send an SCV out at 30+ to check for the third. By 40 supply, there should be a third definitely being set up (you can try to block or whatever), and then they send the SCV into the natural to make sure Zerg made more than 1 extra queen (ie a spine and queen, 2 extra queens, et cetera). No third and no extra 'stuff' like queens, especially in the presence of roaches being made, larva pooled, a roach warren, are all signs of a roach/bane all-in. If you don't see a third and aren't sure, spend a scan into the main as your SCV should have checked out all of the natural. Creep tumors being placed down are also a sign he is playing macro rather than all-inning.
From there you just bunker up, maybe even lift off the natural, make marauder and start up siege tank production, maybe banshees if you already were making them. You should be able to hold if you know it's coming.
Terrans no longer play blind back when they just did 2 base play, now you have to make sure no all-in is coming. Much like the other races have done for a long time. Also your initial hellions, if you go 1 rax FE, double gas, into reactor hellion, can give you vital scouting if you aren't sure what's going on (ie go into main if you see no third or extra queens or creep spread or continuing drones popping).
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Could anyone point me to the exact build order for 3 fast cc vs zerg that demuslim did during UK WCS tournament?
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Is the Zerg increased win rate against Terran really due to this patch? Because tbh in GSL this season very few of the pro Zergs are taking advantage of the queen range, I've seen the 6 queen build a few times, but most of the time the Zergs are still just getting 1 queen for each hatchery. In the RO16 neither Violet nor Symbol got high queen counts in any of their games.
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3 queens is still pretty standard for the initial 2 zerg bases. The main problem is that the freaking range nearly doubled so any kind of hellion agression is basically useless now. I'm guessing you dont play as a terran, otherwise the difficulty increase here would be fairly obvious to you.
6 queen build has always been overkill unless your opponent goes pure air or pure hellion, thats the reason you havent seen it in GSL. Even a huge range buff doesnt make a build as stupid as that good enough for the GSL.
Until now, many argued that TvZ was the most balanced matchup in the game. This new change shatters the matchup IMO. Zergs were supposed to be greedy and find way to defend, which they had ample, when they took an early expansion. And I dont just mean the early 2nd, I mean any early expansion. This change now combined with small chokes to the natural on nearly all maps forces a terran to either all-in, or do a very early orbital themselves and hope that they have the micro and APM to defeat a 3-base zerg on only 2 bases.
I think the only reason that the June winrates arent more skewed is becuase of how many terrans are doing 1-base all-ins now.
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On July 01 2012 12:00 goFLiP wrote:
People suggesting ravens are dumb as a rock. Ravens don't work. You need to wait 2 minutes for a raven to become useful and then you gotta hope the zerg just a-moved so that they have them all clustered up and they're stupid enough to get hit by HSM. Ravens blow. In every damn sense. Period. Stop trying to find something that doesn't work just to prove that terran's lategame is stronger that what people say. There's a reason why terrans goes back to MMM every time. Because it's the only real composition that we have while the other races have 2 or more.
And also, 3OC doesn't work at all unless the zerg doesn't know what he's doing. Once you went 3OC, you're forced to play greedy. You pick greedy and you're stuck with it. Zerg can react. If they see you going 2 base they'll just play greedy as they can defend any pressure, and if they see you going for a 3OC they'll just all in you as it's extremely hard to defend, and even if you lift the OC back, he's gonna delay it forever as zerg all ins aren't really all ins as most of them just drone behind them.
Nobody will come with a solution to this problem. People are just figuring ways around it to shift the metagame to a different style, which still doesn't fix the issue. The issue will be fixed if either ghost nerf gets revered, queen buff gets reverted, or raven gets buffed.
And, please, stay from that bullshit thing that "terrans cry so much, last month it was protoss now zerg bla bla bla". Stick that stuff to the battle.net forums where you will find many idiots like you.
+ Show Spoiler +I don't see how revering the ghost nerf will help ;p
Ravens are used for PDD, not HSM lol. Of course, we have all seen even HSM be very effective at all levels of play, including the GSL. But it's the PDD that's the point of the raven. For 2 supply you get 2 PDDs (with maxed energy); surely you cannot think this is bad?
You are correct that mass raven is not the answer to anything, but to say that to even suggest ravens late-game is stupid, is truly stupid. You won't convince many that 0.5-1 PDD per supply is useless.
Personally, I've been having a lot more trouble with ultras than with BLs; especially when I play mech. Thors just get devastated by ultras (and let's not even mention tanks), so it seems like you need to do a sudden transition to either BCs or marauders after taking your 3rd/4th. Really, I think what makes terran late-game so hard is that implementing a new type of unit into our composition takes so much time. This is, I feel, mainly due to us having separate upgrades for bio/factory/air, whereas protoss can field an army of zealot/stalker/sentry/ht/dt/archon/colo that all share upgrades (and all except colo share production building). Fortunately zerg cannot go for well-upgraded ultra/bl, but ling/bane/festor/ultra is still terrifying, and zerg has an easier time transitioning anyway (due to the nature of zerg production).
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On July 01 2012 16:07 Orek wrote:
Attitude Terran needs now:
OK, this new game called Starcraft 2 just came out on May 10th 2012.
This is a game on Super Nintendo.
Hence, there is no patch, no balance change, no nothing in future.
Let's play this game, and demolish nasty aliens called Zerg and Protoss.
Glad to see OP and some posts go this way.
Another way to look at it:
OK, this game is Blizzard dictatorship.
There is no republican nor democrat to choose from by means of voting.
I have no say.
Play by the rule imposed on me, or I get executed.
Imagine you are playing a game 15 years ago in a relatively totalitarian country. That's what it is like.
Unfortunately, majority of players are spoiled, or so they look to my eye.
Most of us are young and from free countries.
Forget the idea your voice will be heard, forget the idea something will change.
Try to come up with the solution under constraint.
No matter what race you play, you need this attitude.
I have that attitude with a lot of games. I stop playing them if they're messed up.
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On July 04 2012 23:18 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2012 16:07 Orek wrote:
Attitude Terran needs now:
OK, this new game called Starcraft 2 just came out on May 10th 2012.
This is a game on Super Nintendo.
Hence, there is no patch, no balance change, no nothing in future.
Let's play this game, and demolish nasty aliens called Zerg and Protoss.
Glad to see OP and some posts go this way.
Another way to look at it:
OK, this game is Blizzard dictatorship.
There is no republican nor democrat to choose from by means of voting.
I have no say.
Play by the rule imposed on me, or I get executed.
Imagine you are playing a game 15 years ago in a relatively totalitarian country. That's what it is like.
Unfortunately, majority of players are spoiled, or so they look to my eye.
Most of us are young and from free countries.
Forget the idea your voice will be heard, forget the idea something will change.
Try to come up with the solution under constraint.
No matter what race you play, you need this attitude. I have that attitude with a lot of games. I stop playing them if they're messed up.
Yes, that's what we can do as players to protest against Blizzard.
With this logic, I am pretty sure many Zerg players left the game when tanks were shooting down from Lost Temple high ground.
We need more Terran players leaving the game so that Blizzard finally realize something is so messed up.
Otherwise, it is not messed up enough.
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I just feel that terran is kinda anti-casual race right now. You need to know timings, be agrressive (this is very controversial statement after the patch), and usually have better micro than your Z or P opponent. Its no problem if you play it like 2-3h lets say 5 days per week, but play here and there you can be very lost.
I play diamond, and prepatch i had never really problems in TvZ i always get matched up whit equal skilled players even top diamonds. Now i cant do anything. I lose even sometimes to platinum players. I have gotten much spoonier, and even though i usually manage to fight off the first t3 engagements or sometimes win pretty nicely i still cant come out too ahead, because zerg has established too much mapcontrol and can remacro very fast (lets say like my 4 bases against his 5 in daybreak).
This has changed the whole game for me and im very frustrated.
I have ladder experience in team games as Z and i bet i could do all the same that my every Z opponent does (sit and macro to T3, and defend drops). Im no pro but i feel like i have to play much better than them sometimes.
This patch has given me WR about 25% when i had whit reactor hellion into FE opening like 60%-70%. 2 base timing pushes became pretty useless, because maps are so big and it gives zerg so much time to prepare for them. Yeah lets do it all in style like they do in KR? Nope, i have never got any joy out of that.
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Why don't Terrans just STOP BUILDING HELLIONS. They don't work anymore. If you're very, very lucky you might get in and kill like 5 drones, but that isn't enough for the investment of 4-6 hellions that don't stop creep anymore. There are other ways to pressure a Zerg without hellions...
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On July 05 2012 04:01 Larkin wrote:
Why don't Terrans just STOP BUILDING HELLIONS. They don't work anymore. If you're very, very lucky you might get in and kill like 5 drones, but that isn't enough for the investment of 4-6 hellions that don't stop creep anymore. There are other ways to pressure a Zerg without hellions...
They pretty much have? I assume that wer not talking hellion MMM combo here? Fast 3rd is kinda more commong than reactor h expand these days. Even i do it. But when you say there are other ways to pressure Z, indeed there is. But if you go like starport cloak banshee (after expand offc, otherwise so "all-innish") you invest so much gas that your tech is going to be so late. And it arrives pretty late anyway. Its also highly likely that they are spotted pretty fast when Z has mapcontrol and overlords in good positioning.
So tell me these "another ways" to pressure in the early game now? If you go for fast expand (fe. 1rax expand) whitout hellions, there simply is no way to deny zergs 3rd. Maps like cloud kingdom, condemned ridge, daybreak, TDA and another big maps you simly cannot pressure whitout leaning too much on it doing damage. Drops are also a way, but if he plays passive to wait his tier 3 units its almost quaranteed that you cannot make much damage whit drops. So greedy play is one way.
I still think that maps like ohana, antiga are easily winnable by Terrans, but big maps not so much.
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On July 05 2012 04:01 Larkin wrote:
Why don't Terrans just STOP BUILDING HELLIONS. They don't work anymore. If you're very, very lucky you might get in and kill like 5 drones, but that isn't enough for the investment of 4-6 hellions that don't stop creep anymore. There are other ways to pressure a Zerg without hellions...
Yeah this must be why Terrans are having so much trouble in TvZ...
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On July 05 2012 01:48 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 23:18 LavaLava wrote:On July 01 2012 16:07 Orek wrote:
Attitude Terran needs now:
OK, this new game called Starcraft 2 just came out on May 10th 2012.
This is a game on Super Nintendo.
Hence, there is no patch, no balance change, no nothing in future.
Let's play this game, and demolish nasty aliens called Zerg and Protoss.
Glad to see OP and some posts go this way.
Another way to look at it:
OK, this game is Blizzard dictatorship.
There is no republican nor democrat to choose from by means of voting.
I have no say.
Play by the rule imposed on me, or I get executed.
Imagine you are playing a game 15 years ago in a relatively totalitarian country. That's what it is like.
Unfortunately, majority of players are spoiled, or so they look to my eye.
Most of us are young and from free countries.
Forget the idea your voice will be heard, forget the idea something will change.
Try to come up with the solution under constraint.
No matter what race you play, you need this attitude. I have that attitude with a lot of games. I stop playing them if they're messed up. Yes, that's what we can do as players to protest against Blizzard. With this logic, I am pretty sure many Zerg players left the game when tanks were shooting down from Lost Temple high ground. We need more Terran players leaving the game so that Blizzard finally realize something is so messed up. Otherwise, it is not messed up enough.
I'm not sure that leaving the game will be enough impetus for Blizzard to make a change. The % of Terran players on GM and Master league have dropped significantly on every server, especially Europe. Perhaps if Terran dips below 15% representation, then maybe Blizzard would start to worry. (After all, what is this game without TvZ). However, I think it's more likely Blizzard will make a change if Terran win rates stay low.
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On July 05 2012 04:31 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2012 01:48 Orek wrote:On July 04 2012 23:18 LavaLava wrote:On July 01 2012 16:07 Orek wrote:
Attitude Terran needs now:
OK, this new game called Starcraft 2 just came out on May 10th 2012.
This is a game on Super Nintendo.
Hence, there is no patch, no balance change, no nothing in future.
Let's play this game, and demolish nasty aliens called Zerg and Protoss.
Glad to see OP and some posts go this way.
Another way to look at it:
OK, this game is Blizzard dictatorship.
There is no republican nor democrat to choose from by means of voting.
I have no say.
Play by the rule imposed on me, or I get executed.
Imagine you are playing a game 15 years ago in a relatively totalitarian country. That's what it is like.
Unfortunately, majority of players are spoiled, or so they look to my eye.
Most of us are young and from free countries.
Forget the idea your voice will be heard, forget the idea something will change.
Try to come up with the solution under constraint.
No matter what race you play, you need this attitude. I have that attitude with a lot of games. I stop playing them if they're messed up. Yes, that's what we can do as players to protest against Blizzard. With this logic, I am pretty sure many Zerg players left the game when tanks were shooting down from Lost Temple high ground. We need more Terran players leaving the game so that Blizzard finally realize something is so messed up. Otherwise, it is not messed up enough. I'm not sure that leaving the game will be enough impetus for Blizzard to make a change. The % of Terran players on GM and Master league have dropped significantly on every server, especially Europe. Perhaps if Terran dips below 15% representation, then maybe Blizzard would start to worry. (After all, what is this game without TvZ). However, I think it's more likely Blizzard will make a change if Terran win rates stay low.
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4848906173?page=6#106
Trollbnet forums, but look at the blizzard posts.
Im very suprised that they are granted to give a comment about this situation, as they usually do not have rights to comment any situation whats going on in their forums. I think something is going on in behind the scenes.
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On July 05 2012 04:01 Larkin wrote:
Why don't Terrans just STOP BUILDING HELLIONS. They don't work anymore. If you're very, very lucky you might get in and kill like 5 drones, but that isn't enough for the investment of 4-6 hellions that don't stop creep anymore. There are other ways to pressure a Zerg without hellions...
And what would that be ? Helions and Banshees are the only 2 things that don't get cleaned up by a round of pure Lings especially once speed is done. And if you want to tell me you made him build Lings job well done you don't know what you're talking about. After that he'll just purely Drone , Spead Creep and then i cannot pressure anymore because i lost all my early units and my production is not nearly as good as the Zergs. Not to mention your totally open to a bust afterwards.
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Right now i play a completely tankless mechless style that totally relies on my opponent making big mistakes. If he goes heavy Ling/Bling Muta i'm fucked he'll trade with me until i'm dead since i have no tanks and will not add those uses pieces of shit to make the game longer but die later on against lategame where the tanks are useless anyway.
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I will use this tread here to let some steam of:
I am really lost since the patch. Right now I can't win macro games with classic bio mech, because without pressure zerg just has too much of everything. Classic hellion openings seem to slow me down more then the zerg, and marine timings seem to be completely random. If the zerg sees them coming they are just wasted minerals. And i have no idea how to deny that scouting on maps like daybreak or cloud kingdom with those imba overlord spots.Before the patch Hellions were able to do their job even if they were scouted. All the pressure openings i can think of right now depend on being a surprise. Especially banshees seem to be very hit or miss.
If i don't do any pressure before the first real push with tanks at ~11 it kind of never works, because of creep, and just too much stuff on the zerg side.
The only way I win ladder games right now is some kind of hidden 2 base hellion marauder marine all in around 9 min. I really start to lose interest in playing this game right now. TvZ was the MU i had the most fun in. Constant trading all over the map was very fun. Since the patch, i just cant get my foot in the door. Early harass does nothing and later attacks just get killed by huge zerg armys and lots and lots of creep. Its just so sad.
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EPT
