EPT[D] TvZ Metagame patch1.4.3.2 - Page 10
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
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deeshoo
United States319 Posts
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On June 20 2012 04:36 RedMosquito wrote: terran needs a late game and then the problem should be fixed. every race should be relatively balanced at all stages of the game. i dont buy this asymetric balance crap. Well, this is not possible. It didn't happen in BW and won't happen in SC2 too. I still think the current late game terran is too weak though. | ||
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OSM.OneManArmy
United States509 Posts
On July 01 2012 10:17 Wildmoon wrote: Well, this is not possible. It didn't happen in BW and won't happen in SC2 too. I still think the current late game terran is too weak though. I'm pretty sure every matchup had a late game in BW. TvZ i remember terrans would have science vessels, i remember seeing players use battlecruisers, tanks for ultras, i even recall spider mines being used. More recently players have been using valkeryies for mutalisk balls when using mech i believe. | ||
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Jaxtyk
United States600 Posts
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kellenr
98 Posts
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-eXalt
United States462 Posts
Lately, there is talk of Zerg being OP. last month it was "Protoss OP" and now it's zerg do you terrans ever stop? just move on to the next flavor-of-the-month thing to complain about? | ||
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Afk
United States29 Posts
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goFLiP
Argentina39 Posts
And also, 3OC doesn't work at all unless the zerg doesn't know what he's doing. Once you went 3OC, you're forced to play greedy. You pick greedy and you're stuck with it. Zerg can react. If they see you going 2 base they'll just play greedy as they can defend any pressure, and if they see you going for a 3OC they'll just all in you as it's extremely hard to defend, and even if you lift the OC back, he's gonna delay it forever as zerg all ins aren't really all ins as most of them just drone behind them. Nobody will come with a solution to this problem. People are just figuring ways around it to shift the metagame to a different style, which still doesn't fix the issue. The issue will be fixed if either ghost nerf gets revered, queen buff gets reverted, or raven gets buffed. And, please, stay from that bullshit thing that "terrans cry so much, last month it was protoss now zerg bla bla bla". Stick that stuff to the battle.net forums where you will find many idiots like you. | ||
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
The problem is that there is almost no timing for terran outside of the 2-2 push... and that is pretty shit against the creep spread.. with hellion before we could at least deter the creep spread a'lot and now we can't... So I'm trying to work on some heavy bio builds atm in the early game stop apply pressure, pull back creep and getting upgrades so I don't fall behind.. making it easier to have a proper set-up in the mid-game... I think i'm on too something... I'm Ender and Cursed in GM and i'll post up some reps soon when I feel I have it right. | ||
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
(I try to abuse the fact that the zerg is super greedy and mass drone.) So I do a fast third, with hellion and cloak banshee harass. Similar to the mma build. I try to make the less combatunit keep all my money on my scv/macro. at 10-12 minute I start battlecruiser and I crush his face. if he does fast infestor (around 10min) I kill them with cloack banshee. Later (around 20minute) I kill the infestor/corruptor mix with HSM, ghost,marine, maybe it could be good to have some thors. If he comes with queens for healing, I kill them in one shot with yamato ! Boom The key is to be very fast with the BC transition. | ||
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grush57
Korea (South)2582 Posts
On July 01 2012 11:11 xOny wrote: last month it was "Protoss OP" and now it's zerg do you terrans ever stop? just move on to the next flavor-of-the-month thing to complain about? Hey, a patch came out incase you didn't notice. | ||
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On June 30 2012 05:02 jdsowa wrote: Let's have some perspective here. Terrans went something like 20 months relying on one successful unit composition because they didn't have any reason to think more broadly. Now, they've had 2 months of difficulty and the sky is falling and the game is broken. Raven/thor(+tank) is your infestor/broodlord. Late game is about: 1) gas heavy high hp units 2) siege units and 3) splash damage. If you don't have all 3 you are not going to win. MMM is not going to cut it. If you can take advantage of some early/mid game timings, great. But it's not a long term solution. The better people get at defending and reading timings, the more games are going late.  Let's have some perspective here. One unit composition. Really? Well there is something called MECH and something called BIO, both which are used in TvZ. That's two unit compositions right there. So I'm afraid your statement is wrong. There is also SKYTERRAN which isn't utilised much at all in TvZ. I count 3, not 1 (I won't count in BIO MECH which is the current metagame in TvZ). In case you didnt realise, there is a patch change which changed the TvZ matchup completely. This thread is to help Terrans evolve and find better BO's in TvZ aside from bio openings and helion openings and NOT to whine that Terrans are complaining about the matchup. No, the sky isn't falling down in any way. In fact if I thought like that I wouldn't be searching forums looking for solutions to the current metagame. Your 3 points. 1) gas heavy hp units 2)siege units and 3) splash damage. Hm, well no. 2 and no. 3 are kinda the same. The siege tank IS splash damage. It's the only heavy HP AoE dmg. HSM is also there as AoE dmg, and I assume that is what you are suggesting? So you're suggesting tanks, ravens and some heavy HP units? (sounds like mech to me). Well ye I think that sounds great in a utopian terran world  ....But the way you present your "solution" to TvZ, doesn't really help me much. I already know that I need splash dmg or heavy HP gas units. I, in fact need an OPENING that is good against current TvZ metagame AND a transition that secures me the ultimate unit composition (the composition that you talk about in ur 3 points). | ||
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On July 01 2012 13:18 Gyro_SC2 wrote: Hey, I find a good build!!!! (I try to abuse the fact that the zerg is super greedy and mass drone.) So I do a fast third, with hellion and cloak banshee harass. Similar to the mma build. I try to make the less combatunit keep all my money on my scv/macro. at 10-12 minute I start battlecruiser and I crush his face. if he does fast infestor (around 10min) I kill them with cloack banshee. Later (around 20minute) I kill the infestor/corruptor mix with HSM, ghost,marine, maybe it could be good to have some thors. If he comes with queens for healing, I kill them in one shot with yamato ! Boom The key is to be very fast with the BC transition. You want to include a replay, and some information about your build. What maps, what league are you in etc. | ||
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
On July 01 2012 12:54 VPCursed wrote: 2x GM terran here ( 2 accounts in ) The problem is that there is almost no timing for terran outside of the 2-2 push... and that is pretty shit against the creep spread.. with hellion before we could at least deter the creep spread a'lot and now we can't... So I'm trying to work on some heavy bio builds atm in the early game stop apply pressure, pull back creep and getting upgrades so I don't fall behind.. making it easier to have a proper set-up in the mid-game... I think i'm on too something... I'm Ender and Cursed in GM and i'll post up some reps soon when I feel I have it right. Heavy bio builds, like 3 CC marine only timing? I'm playing around with Raven/Tank/Bio and it has some potential against greedy ground based army zerg. Esp. the late game Ravens shine with harass and excellent defensive capabilty. HSM is very coin flippy in regards to dmg it does...Getting RAvens in mid game is kinda hard tho...I can only get it rdy for end mid game or late game... | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
Ling/Bling/Muta used to be THE way to go. Today, we don't see this style nearly as often. It took several months for Terran players to realize that 1rax FE double gas reactor hellion is better than 13gas reactor hellion opening. Most games started with reactor hellion in 2011, but more players started to use 1rax FE version in 2012. Likewise, It will take several months to figure out what the best way to play against mass queen early game style is. Just like Zerg players basically abandoned Mutalisk, Terran might have to abandon hellion openings all together. Or, just like reactor hellion evolved into more economic style, only slight adjustments might be necessary. It has been only 2 months since the patch, too early for the conclusion. In transition, many Zerg players were reluctant to switch from ling/bling/mutalisk, a style which had even won GSL. Right now, many Terran players are reluctant to switch from reactor hellion, a style which has been working for a long time. You CANNOT contain creep with 4-6 hellions any more. Terran needs to admit this first, then find out the solution. Mutalisk COULD NOT do enough economic damage. Zerg admitted this fact and moved on to infestor. We will see... | ||
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Sovern
United States312 Posts
Personally, I'm almost 100% sure that a solid bunker at the third or front of the ramp to deny scouting zerglings and very fast thirds into a 2 base hellion/marauder in case the zerg gets their third by breaking the bunker with roachs, speedlings, or queens would be the answer to what the zergs are currently doing with the fast thirds and fast teching. Hellion/marauder is very cost efficient vs all of zergs pre lair units and is also excellent vs queens and defending against all ins while delaying the hell out of any early thirds. Furthermore, terran can slow down zergs teching with a 2 base marauder/hellion build while grabbing a third and transitioning into marauder/hellion/thor/medivac for a very aggressive mid game into late game, or into marine/marauder/tank/medivac for a less aggressive but still robust unit composition. Grabbing a third faster than the zerg while denying their third also allows you to be able to afford ghosts in time to emp infestors and multiple starports to fend of broodlord infestor putting the terran ahead when the game starts to transition into the late game. Terrans just need to experiment more and focus on their strengths which are their very cost efficient early game units and their ability to deny greedy expansions with these units. TLDR, Hellions by themselves are weak vs anything but speedlings, MM is weak against anything besides zergs playing economically that don't make banelings, marauder/hellion deals with all of zergs all ins and is very aggressive and cost efficient vs zergs t1. Terrans can get ahead by relying on a strong & cost efficient early game unit composition such as marauder/hellion, which extends the early game, afterwards grabbing a third faster than the zergs and building up a strong unit composition consisting of marauder/hellion/thor/medivac and late game relying on ghosts/vikings a long with the aforementioned units. | ||
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goFLiP
Argentina39 Posts
On July 01 2012 14:02 Orek wrote: It took more than 1 year for Zerg players to abandon Mutalisk in favor of infestor in ZvT. Ling/Bling/Muta used to be THE way to go. Today, we don't see this style nearly as often. It took several months for Terran players to realize that 1rax FE double gas reactor hellion is better than 13gas reactor hellion opening. Most games started with reactor hellion in 2011, but more players started to use 1rax FE version in 2012. Likewise, It will take several months to figure out what the best way to play against mass queen early game style is. Just like Zerg players basically abandoned Mutalisk, Terran might have to abandon hellion openings all together. Or, just like reactor hellion evolved into more economic style, only slight adjustments might be necessary. It has been only 2 months since the patch, too early for the conclusion. In transition, many Zerg players were reluctant to switch from ling/bling/mutalisk, a style which had even won GSL. Right now, many Terran players are reluctant to switch from reactor hellion, a style which has been working for a long time. You CANNOT contain creep with 4-6 hellions any more. Terran needs to admit this first, then find out the solution. Mutalisk COULD NOT do enough economic damage. Zerg admitted this fact and moved on to infestor. We will see... On July 01 2012 14:22 Sovern wrote: The problem is that Terrans aren't willing to rely on their strengths and are skimping out on all of the possibility's of early game aggression besides using the old builds that rely on weak units such as banshees and hellions. If a terran decides to go 1 rax 3CC and win in a straight up macro game than hes throwing away his early to mid game advantage and letting the zerg tech up. Furhtermore, going 1 rax fe into hellion/banshee is weak and still leaves the pacing of the game in the zergs hands as hellions and banshees are not robust units and are fragile, they're support units. However, Maruaders paired with hellions are cost efficient vs all of zergs T1 units including queens and spine crawlers as Marauders are extremely good and hellions deal with speedlings and even banelings quite well while marauders deal with roachs, banelings, and queens cost efficiently. Personally, I'm almost 100% sure that a solid bunker at the third or front of the ramp to deny scouting zerglings and very fast thirds into a 2 base hellion/marauder in case the zerg gets their third by breaking the bunker with roachs, speedlings, or queens would be the answer to what the zergs are currently doing with the fast thirds and fast teching. Hellion/marauder is very cost efficient vs all of zergs pre lair units and is also excellent vs queens and defending against all ins while delaying the hell out of any early thirds. Furthermore, terran can slow down zergs teching with a 2 base marauder/hellion build while grabbing a third and transitioning into marauder/hellion/thor/medivac for a very aggressive mid game into late game, or into marine/marauder/tank/medivac for a less aggressive but still robust unit composition. Grabbing a third faster than the zerg while denying their third also allows you to be able to afford ghosts in time to emp infestors and multiple starports to fend of broodlord infestor putting the terran ahead when the game starts to transition into the late game. Terrans just need to experiment more and focus on their strengths which are their very cost efficient early game units and their ability to deny greedy expansions with these units. TLDR, Hellions by themselves are weak vs anything but speedlings, MM is weak against anything besides zergs playing economically that don't make banelings, marauder/hellion deals with all of zergs all ins and is very aggressive and cost efficient vs zergs t1. Terrans can get ahead by relying on a strong & cost efficient early game unit composition such as marauder/hellion, which extends the early game, afterwards grabbing a third faster than the zergs and building up a strong unit composition consisting of marauder/hellion/thor/medivac and late game relying on ghosts/vikings a long with the aforementioned units. That's because of how the metagame shifts, not because suddenly a guy called Albert Infestorstein discovered through mathematical calculations that infestors were better than mutalisks in ZvT. Mutalisks started to get shifted out because terrans got used to defend mutas and started using more bio oriented builds (more marines) and made infestors way more useful than 20 mutalisks getting slaughtered by 8 stimmed marines and 1 medivac. Same with 13 gas and 1rax FE. Back in that time, every once in a while, you saw a zerg who would do 1base cheese/all in or timing pushes and you had to rely on the hellions to be safe. Now, as the metagame shifted (more scouting and bigger maps), there's no need to have hellions as you can safely expand and get hellions by the time any agression kicks in. There was no George Onebarrack Fexpand who suddenly found out the equation that proves that it's better to go 1rax FE than 13 reactor hellion. Stop it with the "players need time to discover new builds". There's no CTPP (Council of Terran Professional Players) that meet up every month to find out and practice new ideas to beat Zerg. Most of the builds in the game are already known. It's how the metagame shifts that brings out different builds to life. Currently, the queen buff took the metagame into this situation where terran is literally fucked unless Blizzard does something or magically the metagame shifts back into the old TvZ where only one queen was made per base. Because 3OC and some other gimmicky timing pushes are different ways to avoid the fact that Terran's lategame is just pathetic, and the current metagame for TvZ is "hey, lets play late game". The same thing happened in BW for 10 years and patches were really spaced between each other, so it let the metagame shift through every possible way. Right now, the patches are too close so it doesn't really let the metagame mature enough to develop the matchup to its fullest. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On July 01 2012 14:22 Sovern wrote: The problem is that Terrans aren't willing to rely on their strengths and are skimping out on all of the possibility's of early game aggression besides using the old builds that rely on weak units such as banshees and hellions. If a terran decides to go 1 rax 3CC and win in a straight up macro game than hes throwing away his early to mid game advantage and letting the zerg tech up. Furhtermore, going 1 rax fe into hellion/banshee is weak and still leaves the pacing of the game in the zergs hands as hellions and banshees are not robust units and are fragile, they're support units. However, Maruaders paired with hellions are cost efficient vs all of zergs T1 units including queens and spine crawlers as Marauders are extremely good and hellions deal with speedlings and even banelings quite well while marauders deal with roachs, banelings, and queens cost efficiently. Personally, I'm almost 100% sure that a solid bunker at the third or front of the ramp to deny scouting zerglings and very fast thirds into a 2 base hellion/marauder in case the zerg gets their third by breaking the bunker with roachs, speedlings, or queens would be the answer to what the zergs are currently doing with the fast thirds and fast teching. Hellion/marauder is very cost efficient vs all of zergs pre lair units and is also excellent vs queens and defending against all ins while delaying the hell out of any early thirds. Furthermore, terran can slow down zergs teching with a 2 base marauder/hellion build while grabbing a third and transitioning into marauder/hellion/thor/medivac for a very aggressive mid game into late game, or into marine/marauder/tank/medivac for a less aggressive but still robust unit composition. Grabbing a third faster than the zerg while denying their third also allows you to be able to afford ghosts in time to emp infestors and multiple starports to fend of broodlord infestor putting the terran ahead when the game starts to transition into the late game. Terrans just need to experiment more and focus on their strengths which are their very cost efficient early game units and their ability to deny greedy expansions with these units. TLDR, Hellions by themselves are weak vs anything but speedlings, MM is weak against anything besides zergs playing economically that don't make banelings, marauder/hellion deals with all of zergs all ins and is very aggressive and cost efficient vs zergs t1. Terrans can get ahead by relying on a strong & cost efficient early game unit composition such as marauder/hellion, which extends the early game, afterwards grabbing a third faster than the zergs and building up a strong unit composition consisting of marauder/hellion/thor/medivac and late game relying on ghosts/vikings a long with the aforementioned units. marauder hellion isnt that great. It sounds great on paper but when you do it, it not that great. It because you have no anti air so you have to attack before 10 min (mutalisk timing). Marauder hellion is weak vs mass lings. Since marauder suck vs lings and hellion suck vs lings (unless they do hit and run or have tons and tons) in straight up fight. If you are going marauder hellion and you failed your first push, you will be stuck in your base for a long long time due to not having any anti air and zerg will take map and you will lose. All zerg need to do is defend with lings and mineral unit and invest gas into mutas. Which is why generally all marauder hellion build lead to all-in. There were people playing around with marauder hellion thor about 7 month back? but it quickly fall out of style after zerg found out that infestor were really good combine with banelings rapes this composition or magic box mutas. Watch 8 month out replays of TvZ and you can find out why that style of play fall out of style. Dont say Terran not exploring when it has already been done before. | ||
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