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On June 30 2012 04:27 ProfSc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 30 2012 04:09 ColonelSlur wrote:
It might be because I'm a lowely mid diamond, but my troubles with z are only vs compitent zergs. I normally dothis b o and it works amazing because of it's strong macro and it's strong pressure options.
10 depot
16 cc AT RAMP (where barrax is normally placed)
17 rax (at ramp, next to cc, complete the wall off)
18 depot
marine
double orbital
THIRD CC at ~21 supply, when double orbital is mprphing
lift off cc, land in natural, wall off again withanother rax, so your wall looks like depot/rax/rax
make a bunker at natramp
make only four marines
after that, wall in COMPLETELY in your nat with 4 barracks, total of six
make marine, andat around 8 minutes, push out with 20ish marines, rally your rax
take the center, clear creep, kill queens, and normally they wouldn't have speed yet (in diamond)
you CAN kill the third with this
even if you don't you get alot of drones, 3+ queens , and potential creep
not here's te thing: doup all four gas, double evo, get double upgrades, and ADD MORE RAX, for every 4 naked rax, you want 2 tech lab transition into bio get medivacs and PUSH OUT every other minute with a seasonable force if you keep your money low and your macro high, and if you have decent micro (pull mariens back, split) then this build would work well. when you are pushing out, you can drop with reinforcements this is just my take the wall makes it so the zerg wont all in as much (4 1.5k health buildings and a full wall off) when the zerg sees cc first they will double expand into their third and mass drones, not expecting pressure 7-8 minutes is when you push, andthat time they are still droning with thispush, you have to have your multitasking ON POINT, landing your cc, getting upgrades/addons/medivacs all wghile microing your push the wall off in your main, you lose around 3~seconds mining time from second cc but you guarentee no lngs coming in and mesing you up, or a four drone pull, etc when i talk to other people about this build, they just say its stupid and they zerg wil make 20 lings and a mvoe me thats why i get the wall up asap critisism and discussion is desired thank you slur.918 Since you're pushing at 8 minutes, what do you do if the zerg players goes for a roach/ling/bling all-in with a heavier roach composition, aiming to outrange your bunkers and break down your wall? What if your opponent goes roach/ling defensively because they see so many raxes? What if your opponent just scouts you with overlords, sees you're going pure naked marine, 3 OC? I, for one, would like to see a replay of this working because while you go through some possible Zerg replies with your analysis at the end of the post, I think there are more nodes that you may not be taking into account.
If he does all in, that might be a build's weakness. Again, this is a personally made build that I do, and refined by me, even though I'm only diamond.
If the opponent scouts with the overlord, what does he care? He sees mass marines, and tech rushes to banelings. The point of this push is NOT to kill the zerg, it's to force units and trade cost effectively. If he mades 10 banelings to kill your 20 marines, and you split well and take care of all of them, you are ahead because you forced 10 larva (20lings) and10banelings. And again, a zerg will see 3OC, they will macro their ass up because they feel they are safe, and be greedy themselves, or they will all in. if they all in, the first four marines from the bunker which i take the watch tower with, I will see lings. With that 7-8 minute push, if he has many roach/ling/bane, I will just retreat and build 4-5 bunkers with a secondary wall, and not take my third.
And again, I have only done this build on ladder, vs mid-low diamonds. I have never faced anything you have said, because the wall scares them off.
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Let's have some perspective here. Terrans went something like 20 months relying on one successful unit composition because they didn't have any reason to think more broadly. Now, they've had 2 months of difficulty and the sky is falling and the game is broken. Raven/thor(+tank) is your infestor/broodlord. Late game is about: 1) gas heavy high hp units 2) siege units and 3) splash damage. If you don't have all 3 you are not going to win. MMM is not going to cut it. If you can take advantage of some early/mid game timings, great. But it's not a long term solution. The better people get at defending and reading timings, the more games are going late.
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I'm whit you guys! I'm kinda lost in this MU as well. Because i feel like reactor hellion is not viable anymore i go either really fast 3-4 cc or basic two base timing push (which i feel is significally weaker as you cant pretty much do damage or have full mapcontrol in the early game if you do not all in).
Even when i go heavy macro i cant do nothing to deny zergs 3rd and propably even 4th base. Only thing that decides is the first engagement. If i lose its over. If he loses its still not over.
Dunno what should i do.
I'v been wathcing some streams lately (illusion, MKP), and one thing is two factory mass marine push. After 1 rax expo or hellion opening you go to hellion production to fully implement them to your army and push out normally as you would do whit marine tank. I still feel that its very risky way as its kinda do or die, if they dont work at the first push u dont do shit whit hellions anymore (if he transitions to infestor/roach/ultra or tanky roach), so i havent tried it and i dont think that I would even want to.
I'm just diamond, but still this MU is almost impossible to overcome in big maps to me now.
But still i
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On June 30 2012 05:02 jdsowa wrote:
Let's have some perspective here. Terrans went something like 20 months relying on one successful unit composition because they didn't have any reason to think more broadly. Now, they've had 2 months of difficulty and the sky is falling and the game is broken. Raven/thor(+tank) is your infestor/broodlord. Late game is about: 1) gas heavy high hp units 2) siege units and 3) splash damage. If you don't have all 3 you are not going to win. MMM is not going to cut it. If you can take advantage of some early/mid game timings, great. But it's not a long term solution. The better people get at defending and reading timings, the more games are going late.
#1 We get Battle Cruisers (that lose to corrupters) thors (that lose to zerglings/roaches/infestors/broodlords etc) and ghosts (nerfed) for our high gas units. Ravens are okay, but certainly not on mass.
#2 Our siege unit isn't very good lategame, Tanks do more damage to our own stuff than zergs against lategame ling spam/broodlord attack.
#3 See #2 and replace siege unit with splash unit
Zergs have used two styles of play, ling/bling/muta and ling/infestor into broodlord for basically the entire starcraft 2 timeframe.
Terrans have used reaper openers (nerfed) bunker rush openers (nerfed) marine/tank plays (nerfed) mass ghost play against lategame (nerfed) hellion openers (nerfed) banshee openers (nerfed) so don't say we haven't used different build orders or play, there's a giant pile of terran stuff that has been nerfed after a major tourney or metagame shift.
At this point TvZ is extremely frustrating to play, and as somebody that has played Terran for 2 years and Zerg for about 2 months my Zerg is miles better than my Terran despite the fact I don't understand a lot of the unit interactions and fine details of the Zerg race and matchups.
Terran uses bio because bio is extremely predictable in how it will play out, and at no point in the game really can you just straight up lose because you have bio units. The same can not be said for mechanical or air stuff.
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The only way i kinda win right now is pure Bio with pressuring into 4-5 Starports BC/Raven/Vikings . IF and thats a big if i actually reach 4-5 Bases for Gas this can work.
Of couse i'm totally open to big baneling pushes before i get there and this doesn't work on alot of maps . But its something,
Mech units i fell unless of course full mech that can work as a big push are totally obsolete later on. Way too vulnerable to cheap units like Lings and tanks later on do too much friendly fire to be effective with Bio.
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On June 30 2012 05:23 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 05:02 jdsowa wrote:
Let's have some perspective here. Terrans went something like 20 months relying on one successful unit composition because they didn't have any reason to think more broadly. Now, they've had 2 months of difficulty and the sky is falling and the game is broken. Raven/thor(+tank) is your infestor/broodlord. Late game is about: 1) gas heavy high hp units 2) siege units and 3) splash damage. If you don't have all 3 you are not going to win. MMM is not going to cut it. If you can take advantage of some early/mid game timings, great. But it's not a long term solution. The better people get at defending and reading timings, the more games are going late. #1 We get Battle Cruisers (that lose to corrupters) thors (that lose to zerglings/roaches/infestors/broodlords etc) and ghosts (nerfed) for our high gas units. Ravens are okay, but certainly not on mass. #2 Our siege unit isn't very good lategame, Tanks do more damage to our own stuff than zergs against lategame ling spam/broodlord attack. #3 See #2 and replace siege unit with splash unit Zergs have used two styles of play, ling/bling/muta and ling/infestor into broodlord for basically the entire starcraft 2 timeframe. Terrans have used reaper openers (nerfed) bunker rush openers (nerfed) marine/tank plays (nerfed) mass ghost play against lategame (nerfed) hellion openers (nerfed) banshee openers (nerfed) so don't say we haven't used different build orders or play, there's a giant pile of terran stuff that has been nerfed after a major tourney or metagame shift. At this point TvZ is extremely frustrating to play, and as somebody that has played Terran for 2 years and Zerg for about 2 months my Zerg is miles better than my Terran despite the fact I don't understand a lot of the unit interactions and fine details of the Zerg race and matchups. Terran uses bio because bio is extremely predictable in how it will play out, and at no point in the game really can you just straight up lose because you have bio units. The same can not be said for mechanical or air stuff.
That's just not true when it comes to builds. Zergs have experimented just as much as Terrans, you basically compared overall mid-game compositions (aka bio and marine tank) versus openers (aka 4 queen/6 queen no gas, 15/15/17, etc.) which just isn't right.
Corruptors are trash against BCs if you have Thor/raven support. When they clump up to target fire a BC you just maul them, and if they don't they're pretty inefficient. 3/3 bcs with 3/3 thors and some ravens is ridiculously strong, the problem is that reaching that is basically impossible unless you're playing NR30. Not only is that SO much gas, SO many production facilities you need to add, and SO much build time... but getting 3/3 on bio, then mech, THEN air (assuming you opened bio or biomech) is just not feasible. Let's not mention the fact that HSM is 125 energy and requires 2 expensive upgrades in hsm upgrade and raven energy upgrade. Oh yeah, and you basically have to win with that army, because it takes so long to build + is so expensive that if Zerg kills it once they'll almost always win.
Honestly, air and mech upgrades should at least be the same thing, the fact that you need 6 upgrades for your army to reach 3/3 is ridiculous when Zerg needs 4 (and their t3 units both scale off of melee/carapace which they get anyway) and Protoss needing fewer AND having chrono. This would help both with marine+tank+viking in the mid-game and late-game for terran, and it just makes sense imo. That + a reduction in BC/thor build time (maybe?) would be nice; it's something Blizzard should experiment with at least.
I'd rather them buff Terran late game than gib the queens, but we'll see how Blizzard handles it.
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It's about time for the ghost nerf to be reverted completely.
Terran needs some "beat everything" units like zerg has. We just simply cannot play this matchup anymore with all our combinations of units being beaten by infestors. You can't out-macro, you can't out-greed and you just simply cannot harass them anymore without taking a big loss or being extremely succeptable to an all-in.
This is unbearable, TvZ used to be the best matchup in this game and now it's just broken.
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The infestor is just a bandage on Z mid game.
The ghost needs to be the bandage on T late game.
Hopefully the expansion will fix both. Viper and mines look to do a passable job.
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Terran should make more allin again the zerg ! Zerg players are too overconfident about early game and If more terrans start playing allin strategy then the zergs will have to play less greedy.
Everything except this part makes sense. The counter to zerg opening 4+ queens and mass droning is to macro up hard yourself. Investing that many minerals into purely defensive units (queens) means that zerg won't be able to put pressure on you for a very long time. Keep in mind that ling speed will be heavily delayed, so pressure with marines if they try taking a very fast 3rd can be really good as well. Terran can play greedy, too! Just make sure to scout any aggressive followup from the zerg, like an econ roach/bane attack, and you can easily be on equal footing or ahead of zerg economically. Your suggestion is literally the exact opposite of how you should play against this zerg style. Your dumb all-in worked because zerg was lazy and/or stupid and never scouted that you didn't take your natural. He didn't even make scouting lings. Any competent player with eyes on the map will crush your attack and then collect their free win.
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On June 30 2012 08:46 Talack wrote:
It's about time for the ghost nerf to be reverted completely.
Terran needs some "beat everything" units like zerg has. We just simply cannot play this matchup anymore with all our combinations of units being beaten by infestors. You can't out-macro, you can't out-greed and you just simply cannot harass them anymore without taking a big loss or being extremely succeptable to an all-in.
This is unbearable, TvZ used to be the best matchup in this game and now it's just broken.
They could just make Broodlords psionic. Having Ghosts counter Ultralisks is pretty stupid, as against those your tanks are actually useful.
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Perhaps getting Raven energy upgrade very early (even before you need Raven) along with Seekers will be of help.
If you have a mobile, effective flying counter to Mutas (and then later for BroodLords) it will allow Terran to free up to do more.
Also seekers are the best Baneling buster in the game (besides, say, a Nuke).
This at least matches two powerful Zerg forces.
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I just play as greedy and gimmicky and cheesy as possible while waiting for a patch.
There's not much of a point to attempt macro games when the matchup is as broken as it is.
Everyone screaming "ravens!" need to get informed. Fungal outranges missiles, so in theory ravens will never work. And even if you DO get missiles off you are guaranteed to lose every single raven in the process, and you can't really afford to lose a ton of 200 gas units like that.
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I feel like a lot of terrans just completely have the wrong attitude. For a long time terrans felt you MUST do damage to zerg, and with this patch, a lot of terrans feel they should all-in more, when the 2 buffs, ovie speed and queen range, were meant to make all-inning less effective or more costly.
There are plenty of terrans still winning the GSL with macro play, and that also really doesn't matter - you aren't code A level yet, so until you get to at least code a, just play a macro game and outplay your opponent, as you should, to win.
The whole spanishiwa build was outdated because of macro terran. In general in this game, if the opponent masses static defense, you respond by building more econ (or tech) against it, not attack. Now terrans know how to scout for all-ins too - sac an SCV at 30+ to spot for a third or extra queens/defense. Take a quick third as standard now, and stop going for a 3 base deathball push but instead prepare better for the lategame. Terran's ability to drop also just totally puts a spin on 'balance' in this game, and moreso than other races, can win by outplaying the opponent.
I also rarely see terrans make enough vikings against broodlords. You make 4+ vikings per colossus in tvp, i believe you should make a similar number against each broodlord.
Everyone screaming "ravens!" need to get informed. Fungal outranges missiles, so in theory ravens will never work. And even if you DO get missiles off you are guaranteed to lose every single raven in the process, and you can't really afford to lose a ton of 200 gas units like that.
mass ravens, especially paired with BC's, own the shit out of infestors, or anything zerg has. I'm not suggesting ravens or bc's at all here, I kind of feel they are near impossible to get to, at least in the current metagame, all I'm saying here is I disagree with your opinion that ravens, if somehow gotten out (which is a big if), are strong as fuck. I don't think ravens are the answer, personally, but if you could get them out, they are definitely stronger than some FG.
I think terrans just need to identify if zerg is going ultras are broodlords first (seeing 2 evo since the start instead of 1, quick hive vs later hive, not many infestors/mutas vs just a few infestors/mutas, are a few hints), and either add marauders or vikings much earlier on then they are now, as in setting up production facilities as soon as taking third.
Anyways i'm not saying i agree or disagree with a lot of people saying tvz is imbalanced, but the metagame is still wildly changing. Just a few days ago we are starting to see zergs reat to cc first by 3 hatch before pool. You can't be making balance claims when there aren't even stable builds yet.
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On June 30 2012 13:14 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 08:46 Talack wrote:
It's about time for the ghost nerf to be reverted completely.
Terran needs some "beat everything" units like zerg has. We just simply cannot play this matchup anymore with all our combinations of units being beaten by infestors. You can't out-macro, you can't out-greed and you just simply cannot harass them anymore without taking a big loss or being extremely succeptable to an all-in.
This is unbearable, TvZ used to be the best matchup in this game and now it's just broken. They could just make Broodlords psionic. Having Ghosts counter Ultralisks is pretty stupid, as against those your tanks are actually useful.
Or make it so that infestors no longer counter vikings...
That would do wonders for terran's late game. In addition to a large raven buff.
mass ravens, especially paired with BC's, own the shit out of infestors, or anything zerg has. I'm not suggesting ravens or bc's at all here, I kind of feel they are near impossible to get to, at least in the current metagame, all I'm saying here is I disagree with your opinion that ravens, if somehow gotten out (which is a big if), are strong as fuck. I don't think ravens are the answer, personally, but if you could get them out, they are definitely stronger than some FG.
i believe there has beena few games recently where infestors beat mass ravens without breaking a sweat. even mass bcs paired with ravens....
So where are your theories comming from? And where is exactly is this mass raven/bc army comming from?
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^ What games exactly?
I speak from my own experiences I suppose, but I assumed that most people felt that mass ravens are pretty damn strong against zerg (it's just about impossible to get there safely though).
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I just play ultra passive 40-60 mins turtle mech plus air 3/3 and rape zerg cus my army becomes ultra efficient and i got only few scv on the map
Ps. Rank 1master
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On June 30 2012 15:30 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 13:14 Xequecal wrote:On June 30 2012 08:46 Talack wrote:
It's about time for the ghost nerf to be reverted completely.
Terran needs some "beat everything" units like zerg has. We just simply cannot play this matchup anymore with all our combinations of units being beaten by infestors. You can't out-macro, you can't out-greed and you just simply cannot harass them anymore without taking a big loss or being extremely succeptable to an all-in.
This is unbearable, TvZ used to be the best matchup in this game and now it's just broken. They could just make Broodlords psionic. Having Ghosts counter Ultralisks is pretty stupid, as against those your tanks are actually useful. Or make it so that infestors no longer counter vikings... That would do wonders for terran's late game. In addition to a large raven buff. Show nested quote +
mass ravens, especially paired with BC's, own the shit out of infestors, or anything zerg has. I'm not suggesting ravens or bc's at all here, I kind of feel they are near impossible to get to, at least in the current metagame, all I'm saying here is I disagree with your opinion that ravens, if somehow gotten out (which is a big if), are strong as fuck. I don't think ravens are the answer, personally, but if you could get them out, they are definitely stronger than some FG.
i believe there has beena few games recently where infestors beat mass ravens without breaking a sweat. even mass bcs paired with ravens.... So where are your theories comming from? And where is exactly is this mass raven/bc army comming from?
Bomber used mass raven pretty effectively against Ostojiy
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I think Marine-Tank doesn't work anymore, so we'll either have to go full on MMM with Raven support or Mech, again, with Raven support. Raven's are what we need, but it's hard to get them on medium-sized maps without risking our asses.
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On July 01 2012 03:04 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2012 15:30 Talack wrote:On June 30 2012 13:14 Xequecal wrote:On June 30 2012 08:46 Talack wrote:
It's about time for the ghost nerf to be reverted completely.
Terran needs some "beat everything" units like zerg has. We just simply cannot play this matchup anymore with all our combinations of units being beaten by infestors. You can't out-macro, you can't out-greed and you just simply cannot harass them anymore without taking a big loss or being extremely succeptable to an all-in.
This is unbearable, TvZ used to be the best matchup in this game and now it's just broken. They could just make Broodlords psionic. Having Ghosts counter Ultralisks is pretty stupid, as against those your tanks are actually useful. Or make it so that infestors no longer counter vikings... That would do wonders for terran's late game. In addition to a large raven buff.
mass ravens, especially paired with BC's, own the shit out of infestors, or anything zerg has. I'm not suggesting ravens or bc's at all here, I kind of feel they are near impossible to get to, at least in the current metagame, all I'm saying here is I disagree with your opinion that ravens, if somehow gotten out (which is a big if), are strong as fuck. I don't think ravens are the answer, personally, but if you could get them out, they are definitely stronger than some FG.
i believe there has beena few games recently where infestors beat mass ravens without breaking a sweat. even mass bcs paired with ravens.... So where are your theories comming from? And where is exactly is this mass raven/bc army comming from? Bomber used mass raven pretty effectively against Ostojiy
Bomber can beat Ostojiy with his hands tied...
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problem with all your suggestion is they are very mid/late mid game. I just can't let zerg run free reign for that long.
faced a zerg that made 5 queens yesterday, I just can't crack his defense since he transfuse and actually KITE my marines all day.
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