EPTP.S: This won't work in maps where overlords can see if you expanded or not (Cloud Kingdom comes to mind) as if they see you didn't expand by 6:30'ish they would probably drop a few spines or a bling nest, depends on the zerg.
[D] TvZ Metagame patch1.4.3.2 - Page 11
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goFLiP
Argentina39 Posts
P.S: This won't work in maps where overlords can see if you expanded or not (Cloud Kingdom comes to mind) as if they see you didn't expand by 6:30'ish they would probably drop a few spines or a bling nest, depends on the zerg. | ||
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scph
Korea (South)262 Posts
First, people continue to say that zerg can continue to just drone behind a bunch of queens and then force a late game to come really, really, early on. In SOTG, idra has continually defended the fact that good terran players who aren't shitty will be able to keep up the pressure while maintaining a strong economy, thus, delaying or even preventing zerg from being able to drone freely behind queens. Now from my perspective, what idra is saying is completely true. The problem is, it's so much harder for the terran player to do all of this now with the queen range buff, while it's so much easier on the zerg player to defend pressures while advancing into a late game economy. Does that make queen range OP? Is it really impossible to win against zerg unless you "outplay" the player? Just because it's harder on a player, it doesn't mean that his opposing player's race is OP. Let's take a look at some SC2 history, the very little history it even has. There was a time when zergs had a much harder time versus both terran and protoss, but was it because some units were OP? Or was it just because it was easier for toss and terran to execute builds and strategies and harder for the zerg to defend them? It was very possible, it was just harder on the zerg player. So yes, zerg players are having an easier time right now, but it doesn't mean tvz is fucked. People, stop complaining about the buff. It's not instawin. 2 players of similar skill will still have a balanced game. All this nonsense about terrans having to be significantly better than zergs is nonsense. Terrans just have to do even more work now in order to keep up economically. And that means if they have to dedicate resource heavy attacks in order to prevent zergs from getting such a strong economy, then so be it. Second, back on topic, I want to point out that some people are confused about the current metagame. Some terran players are expecting to play like they have played, and that it's now impossible because you cant pressure against 6 queens and you cant 3occ either because you get all inned. Let's look at this 6 queen 3 hatch free drone phase that is being talked about so much. I would argue that this in itself is very "all in". It's an economic all in that obviously if terran doesn't commit much to to stop it, they'll eventually lose. But what if you just 2 base all in? Don't start with this bullshit "but I don't wanna all in every tvz game". If zerg 2 base all inned you, what would you do? Defend it, probably by putting down several bunkers and producing out a stronger army than you normally would. You react to it. If zerg is greedy, then react to it. Again, idra has argued that terran doesn't have to play an economy catchup game. Terrans are free to keep up the pressure with stronger forces or even go all in. It's like zerg playing 3 base and seeing terran go 3occ, and then adding another base to keep up. WTF is the point when you could all in there instead. You see a greedy economic all in, all in yourself and win. Don't tell me terran all in's won't kill a greedy 6 queen drone pumping zerg. At the least, you've forced zerg to react, and thus, altering the so called "very fast late game", allowing you to transition into midgame and safer late game. And yes, assuming you are of equal skill to your zerg opponent, you will do a substantial amount of damage enough to pay out your costly all inish attack. Come on, it's just drones and queens. You will hurt his economy, and his tech will have already been delayed due to going gasless early game. But of course, I am nowhere near pro level so my input is considered shit. Maybe I convinced some terrans to start all-inning like hell at least. On July 01 2012 14:37 goFLiP wrote: It's how the metagame shifts that brings out different builds to life. Currently, the queen buff took the metagame into this situation where terran is literally fucked unless Blizzard does something or magically the metagame shifts back into the old TvZ where only one queen was made per base. Because 3OC and some other gimmicky timing pushes are different ways to avoid the fact that Terran's lategame is just pathetic, and the current metagame for TvZ is "hey, lets play late game". The same thing happened in BW for 10 years and patches were really spaced between each other, so it let the metagame shift through every possible way. Right now, the patches are too close so it doesn't really let the metagame mature enough to develop the matchup to its fullest. wtf? You say blizzard needs to do something, but then you continue saying they need to stop patching so fast. I think you meant to say the queen change should be reverted, so that we can all see every zerg get a few roaches to deny helion runbys or wall up with evos and spines? And it's been a long time since people only built one queen per base. Even before the change people were already producing extra queens. And terran isn't fucked even with the queen change. I don't get why people keep saying one race is fucked just because of one unit change. *Also forgot to note that it makes no sense that the queen change was meant to deter all ins against zerg. I highly doubt queens will prevent any sort of dedicated all in in the first place. It deters powerful early harassment, not all ins. | ||
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rufflesQueso
100 Posts
On July 01 2012 15:00 scph wrote: Let's look at this 6 queen 3 hatch free drone phase that is being talked about so much. I would argue that this in itself is very "all in". It's an economic all in that obviously if terran doesn't commit much to to stop it, they'll eventually lose. But what if you just 2 base all in? Don't start with this bullshit "but I don't wanna all in every tvz game". If zerg 2 base all inned you, what would you do? Defend it, probably by putting down several bunkers and producing out a stronger army than you normally would. You react to it. If zerg is greedy, then react to it. Again, idra has argued that terran doesn't have to play an economy catchup game. Terrans are free to keep up the pressure with stronger forces or even go all in. It's like zerg playing 3 base and seeing terran go 3occ, and then adding another base to keep up. WTF is the point when you could all in there instead. You see a greedy economic all in, all in yourself and win. The reason why Zerg's roach/bane/ling all-in is so powerful is because they have this little thing called Larvae Inject. This allows them to rapidly produce units or drones in a very short amount of time. This allows them to hit at certain timings before Terran tech (meant to deter all-in) kicks in. Terrans have to lay down plenty of production facilities and tech labs or reactors before making units. It doesn't work the same way Zerg does where they plop down one building and then make units from that tech tree. After laying down the production facilities, Terrans are committed to creating the units from that tech tree. Also, an all-in will be scouted by overlords flying inside the Terran base. Once they see what tech labs / reactors are attached to production facilities, they can adequately prepare themselves. If you suggested a specific 2 base all-in that was somewhat decent enough to cripple the Zerg, I'm sure many of us would start doing it. However, by the time any kind of decent Terran 2 base all-in hits the Zerg, they've already droned enough to support an army that will easily crush the Terran's attack. | ||
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Orek
1665 Posts
OK, this new game called Starcraft 2 just came out on May 10th 2012. This is a game on Super Nintendo. Hence, there is no patch, no balance change, no nothing in future. Let's play this game, and demolish nasty aliens called Zerg and Protoss. Glad to see OP and some posts go this way. Another way to look at it: OK, this game is Blizzard dictatorship. There is no republican nor democrat to choose from by means of voting. I have no say. Play by the rule imposed on me, or I get executed. Imagine you are playing a game 15 years ago in a relatively totalitarian country. That's what it is like. Unfortunately, majority of players are spoiled, or so they look to my eye. Most of us are young and from free countries. Forget the idea your voice will be heard, forget the idea something will change. Try to come up with the solution under constraint. No matter what race you play, you need this attitude. | ||
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nOtse
1 Post
I dont know if this is viable in higher levels of play but I have made my focus in TvZ to turtle. Using the benefits of terran defence with supply walls, planetary, bunkers, building upgrades. Using mainly marines & medivacs for multi point drop play aggression with Tanks as defense. Meanwhile slowly teching to BC. Upgrades that I go for are armour upgrade for buildings 3/3 marines and 3 attack mech 3 armour for Air. I have not run into heavy infestor play since going for this so I dont know how it would go. Idea is I just try to be cost effective until I get my tech. When I see Broodlords I just pump out vikings from the starports that I am trying to build up for BC. I am only platinum and stating what is working for myself. Maybe people can better this play or show it bombs? But last 4 or so TvZ I have not lost - they are long games though. Here are some replays: http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1394 http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1393 http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1392 | ||
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Powerstrike
50 Posts
Rank 1 master | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
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Phye
21 Posts
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On July 02 2012 15:28 Powerstrike wrote: just learn to play mech correct like me with air and ull be ok /just s hint u dont need more than 2 tanks late game, no more than 40 scv, u need to build ravens earlier. Gl Rank 1 master so you all-in every game. cool | ||
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Picklebread
808 Posts
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Powerstrike
50 Posts
Gosh are u gold? U sac ur scv late game, u have like 6-7 orbitals. When playing turtle mech u have floating 6k minerals, 0 gas., ofc u macro normally at start. User was warned for this post | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On July 02 2012 16:38 Picklebread wrote: 6 rax all in is kindve relying on them not to build 3 spines / scout it. Instead, you can try a 1rax fe -> 4rax -> combat shield timing and that punishes a zerg very hard if they take a quick third (6 mins ect.). If he doesnt take a quick third then you know theres a possibility of an all in coming. You can also do say a 2rax pressure -> double cc and then add 3 more barracks and do the same thing, if hes playing greedy and taking a quick third then do a timing push with like 20-30 marines. It punishes especially the zergs doing the 6 queens build. Zergs playing non-greedy, taking their third and getting an army to protect it are not punished. But they do not over-drone, so its not really a problem. Terran should just take a third CC at 7 minute when they attack the third of the zerg. And if they punish the zerg, maybe be prepared for an all in. I'm a low-diamond zerg player, and i'm describing what is working against me when i do the 6 queens build (and thats why i stopped to do this shit) | ||
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Picklebread
808 Posts
On July 02 2012 20:18 Insoleet wrote: It punishes especially the zergs doing the 6 queens build. Zergs playing non-greedy, taking their third and getting an army to protect it are not punished. But they do not over-drone, so its not really a problem. Terran should just take a third CC at 7 minute when they attack the third of the zerg. And if they punish the zerg, maybe be prepared for an all in. I'm a low-diamond zerg player, and i'm describing what is working against me when i do the 6 queens build (and thats why i stopped to do this shit) Yes, against 6 queen / gasless these builds work very well. I offered these builds because i really disagree with doing a 1base 6rax all in thats just gimicky and tbh any zerg in masters should scout this coming and just build 3 spines and it doesnt affect what a zerg does AFTER scouting a 1rax fe or a cc first or what have you it doesnt target greed at zergs for droning straight to 60-70 which is what if you wanna play a macro game against zerg you need to do to find timings. | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On July 01 2012 15:00 scph wrote: Don't tell me terran all in's won't kill a greedy 6 queen drone pumping zerg. At the least, you've forced zerg to react, and thus, altering the so called "very fast late game", allowing you to transition into midgame and safer late game. And yes, assuming you are of equal skill to your zerg opponent, you will do a substantial amount of damage enough to pay out your costly all inish attack. Come on, it's just drones and queens. You will hurt his economy, and his tech will have already been delayed due to going gasless early game. You don't understand what an all in is. An all in means that if it doesn't work, you lose. Yes you can force the zerg to "react" for 1-2 minutes, but after deflecting the all-in, the zerg goes back to teching or droning. If you don't lose when your all-in doesn't work, it's not all in. And atm, most terran all-ins don't work. | ||
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chaosftw
24 Posts
if you look at the graph and charts made for the most of starcraft 2 and it's existence, it has always favoured terran significantly. Now considering that fact, and how many zerg players have had to work harder to stay in the pro scene, and that terran was arguably had the upper hand at those times, this means that zerg players were just working harder. With that in mind, now that it can be said that, not because of the minor buffs zerg recieved and the new play styles zerg has adapted to, terran players will need to either a) discover new play styles, timings b) they need to work and practice more in the zvt match up. Now you can't just split marines and win. you actually have to play this so called RTS game. thank you EDIT: Current JUNE 2012 Win rates. http://minus.com/mLvjZlHez/1g | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On July 03 2012 04:36 chaosftw wrote: Let me make a clear statement on this topic... if you look at the graph and charts made for the most of starcraft 2 and it's existence, it has always favoured terran significantly. Now considering that fact, and how many zerg players have had to work harder to stay in the pro scene, and that terran was arguably had the upper hand at those times, this means that zerg players were just working harder. With that in mind, now that it can be said that, not because of the minor buffs zerg recieved and the new play styles zerg has adapted to, terran players will need to either a) discover new play styles, timings b) they need to work and practice more in the zvt match up. Now you can't just split marines and win. you actually have to play this so called RTS game. thank you or c) get better lategame units then they currently have. | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On July 02 2012 16:29 Phye wrote: Terran late game. That is all. And don't talk to me about ravens or BC. Corruptor is the almighty anti-air unit. Any air unit will be totally useless against Corruptor/Infestor. IMO, the infestor is the problem because it has no hard counter, Ghosts are useless against them because Overseers dont require any food and zerglings are (too) fast and will punish bad ghost positioning way harder than terran can punish bad infestor positioning. That's not true. PDD probably messes up corruptors more than any other unit. In a very lategame scenario TvZ, Infestors can be zoned out by Marauders, Tanks, Raven Auto Turrets, or some other units, and split Ravens can support Vikings very effectively versus corruptors, using PDD or even missiles to let Vikings burn through Corruptors. It's definitely no simple brainless move, but can be quite effective against corruptor/infestor. | ||
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pewpew415
United States48 Posts
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
On July 03 2012 04:36 chaosftw wrote: Let me make a clear statement on this topic... if you look at the graph and charts made for the most of starcraft 2 and it's existence, it has always favoured terran significantly. Now considering that fact, and how many zerg players have had to work harder to stay in the pro scene, and that terran was arguably had the upper hand at those times, this means that zerg players were just working harder. With that in mind, now that it can be said that, not because of the minor buffs zerg recieved and the new play styles zerg has adapted to, terran players will need to either a) discover new play styles, timings b) they need to work and practice more in the zvt match up. Now you can't just split marines and win. you actually have to play this so called RTS game. thank you EDIT: Current JUNE 2012 Win rates. http://minus.com/mLvjZlHez/1g Terran has maintained win rates after every nerf. P and Z only improve when a significant buff or change to the matchup occurs | ||
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IamNatural
64 Posts
12rines off 1 rax CC +couple more rax into bio is actually pretty good pressure vs 4-6 queens build. | ||
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