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On June 20 2012 16:29 frezMki wrote:
Players get new challenges and response to them which will cause new challenges for the opponent.
Its to narrow-minded to say "Yea its tohard to execute"- Conters are always harder to execute.
Just look back how sc2 began and how it is played now
I agree with this 100%
Like terrans are so used to just sticking with the same units all game, they they finally have a challenge.
But sadly all terrans are nay sayers are don't want the challenge, they just want to stick with the same 3 units all game.
Go play with it, that's what the other races did in the start when SC2 came out.
DO SOMETHING NEW
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On June 20 2012 16:43 Belial88 wrote:
I'm not saying TvZ lategame is without it's problems. But early game TvZ was OP, and it's now fixed. Hopefully, blizz will fix any issues, if there are any, in lategame TvZ, but it is still way, way too early to tell. Even Vr/Colossus was OP for a long time, and after it was 'balanced' with the infestor buff, we started to see zergs just beat such play by going mutas, making the infestor buff unnecessary (turned out infestor buff was necessary to make zergs beat robo-macro play, but no one did that back then).
Bellial, arent you forgetting the roach ling baneling all in? That destroyed any kind of 3rd while hellion shit. Early game T was in no way OP.
Comparing this to infestor buff is non sense, Vr/colossus was really really hard to beat (Ex Z here), massing up those corruptors and them switching back into hydras it was crazy.
Fast 3rd CC is in no way comparable. So we could delay the third a bit? with all the roach xpand coming out? Blizz definitily took an initiative that was uncalled for.
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Ovie speed was enough to give Z the weapons to punish fast CC's because of better scouting.
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On June 20 2012 23:00 Viter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 16:29 frezMki wrote:
Players get new challenges and response to them which will cause new challenges for the opponent.
Its to narrow-minded to say "Yea its tohard to execute"- Conters are always harder to execute.
Just look back how sc2 began and how it is played now I agree with this 100% Like terrans are so used to just sticking with the same units all game, they they finally have a challenge. But sadly all terrans are nay sayers are don't want the challenge, they just want to stick with the same 3 units all game. Go play with it, that's what the other races did in the start when SC2 came out. DO SOMETHING NEW
Are you dumb? Do you know how terran upgrades work?
User was temp banned for this post.
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All I have to say about the "too hard to do" whining is: Don't play terran! Toss and Zerg are a lot less nerve wrecking, and a lot less micro intensive. So switch!
I switched from Z to T looking for a challenge, and man am I served 
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As a terran player what I really like about the zerg queen buff is that we now get to see how many bad terran players just massed blue flames and suiciding them into minerals lines. That whas basicly their entire strategy hoping to get a 50% win on ladder and on the forums sometimes they try to disguise that by using words as denying creep spread or map control (which you stilll have!). But now zergs choose to get 6 queens and their strategy stopped working and they have to rely on better macro and better understanding of timings to defeat zerg. So they do what all bad players do... they switch to protoss.
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On June 20 2012 16:44 Entirety wrote:
...and then Zergs learn to split their Infestors and burrow them. Then they throw in Banelings so we're forced to split our bio, even after EMPs.
If they can throw in enough banelings to not just instantly die to mmm dps then you let them quadrouple expand before pool while you sat on 2 base for 30 minutes. You complain about not affording gas, and then ignore the zerg gas needs, or in other words you spout hypocritical nonsense.
I don't enjoy seeing people ask for a more micro intensive game (many people saying that in other threads), and then complain when the game is more micro intensive (many people in recent threads about balance).
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On June 20 2012 23:21 derpinator wrote:
As a terran player what I really like about the zerg queen buff is that we now get to see how many bad terran players just massed blue flames and suiciding them into minerals lines. That whas basicly their entire strategy hoping to get a 50% win on ladder and on the forums sometimes they try to disguise that by using words as denying creep spread or map control (which you stilll have!). But now zergs choose to get 6 queens and their strategy stopped working and they have to rely on better macro and better understanding of timings to defeat zerg. So they do what all bad players do... they switch to protoss.
Yea you still have map control. But you cant deny creep or expansion. So helions now are expensive "tourists" that you can use as roache-scout. Cool!
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On June 20 2012 23:00 Viter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 16:29 frezMki wrote:
Players get new challenges and response to them which will cause new challenges for the opponent.
Its to narrow-minded to say "Yea its tohard to execute"- Conters are always harder to execute.
Just look back how sc2 began and how it is played now I agree with this 100% Like terrans are so used to just sticking with the same units all game, they they finally have a challenge. But sadly all terrans are nay sayers are don't want the challenge, they just want to stick with the same 3 units all game. Go play with it, that's what the other races did in the start when SC2 came out. DO SOMETHING NEW
Do some research on how Terran upgrades work please.
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Which upgrades are you talking about?
Hes talking about unit comps. why are you talking about upgrades?!:D
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Bellial, arent you forgetting the roach ling baneling all in? That destroyed any kind of 3rd while hellion shit. Early game T was in no way OP.
You can scout for it. If you watch pro level TvZ, you will notice 100% of Terrans who go fast third (from fast 19 supply third to much more standard 'fast' third) will send an SCV to the third of zerg, then toward the main, at 40-45 supply.
No third base, then you need to start asking questions. You don't need to panic, but with the SCV going into the main, you might get additional clues (although maybe not due to spine, speed, or queens) - so if you still dont see anything (as you probably shouldnt by a smart zerg), scan the main. If he does not have both gas taken with a ton of workers bouncing around, if not with lair started, then you should question what is going on. If he has both gas taken but not a ton of workers, as in only 2 workers per mineral patch with no bouncing going on, then he's probably all-inning.
Roach/bane all-in and baneling busts cannot be not scouted - no third base means make siege tanks, bunkers, etc until you can positively confirm otherwise (your fast third mooore than makes up for making a few bunkers vs a zerg who is still on 2 base). Scan the natural for units, gas or drone saturation, or scan the main for lair timing, whatever, but no third, suspect something.
Also, there are many other clues. If Zerg has more than 1 spine or 1 queen (like 1 spine 1 queen, or 2 extra queens), then he's not doing a roach/bane all-in. If zerg has creep spread, he is not doing a roach bane all-in. You should also have some units poking - your initial 2 hellions, for example, off a 1 rax fe reactor hellion build should send the first 2 hellions immediately towards zerg's natural to make sure he made extra queens rather than not made queens to save up for an all-in. Every zerg makes at least 3 queens, so no extra queen for creep should be seriously alarming (plus, you should be much more effective with initial hellions as well).
That's the way the game should work - fast third terrans can hold roach/bane all-in if they know it's coming and respond and act appropriately (it isnt easy, nor should it, but they will come out wayyy ahead if they hold). But roach/bane all-in wasn't really that great back pre-queen buff when you have to spend at least 400 mineral to make the exact counter to 400-600 minerals worth of units and so your all-in would be way too late (not to mention impossible to really hit at the right timing if forced to make so much static defense). And Zerg can't both expand and do roach/bane aggression to deny Terran's third, zerg can only do one or the other.
Fast 3rd CC is in no way comparable. So we could delay the third a bit? with all the roach xpand coming out? Blizz definitily took an initiative that was uncalled for.
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Ovie speed was enough to give Z the weapons to punish fast CC's because of better scouting.
A bit? Reactor hellion into fast third forces zerg to spend at least 400 minerals in order to counter (and with static defense too) exactly the same cost of what they knew was coming, 400 minerals of hellions (you needed 2 queens and 4 lings at the very minimum, but most people got something like 3 extra queens, a spine + 2 queens, or 2 spines and a queen, but everyone spent at least 400 minerals). On top of that, Terran takes a way faster third than zerg.
This would be okay in like a mirror match-up or something, but has huge consequences for Zerg. Zerg NEEDS to take an earlier third than Terran in order to play a macro game. If terran wants to deny zerg's third, that's fine, but they shouldn't be allowed to take their third at the same time. That's just ridiculous. That's like Toss denying' Terran from fast expanding with like 1 rax FE when Toss is going 1 gate FE. It's stupid. You can't tell me "its okay if toss could delay terran from expanding to their natural for just a bit while expanding at the same time".
Roach expand has huge costs, and pigeonholes zergs into playing turtle style, 3 base infestor into quick hive. Personally, i still go macro hatch instead of third against reactor hellion, but I'm a muta player in ZvT (and my win rate in 1.2k points masters is very solid zvt, enough that i question the balance of zvt actually, but i never said i think the match-up overall is balanced). If you went 3-5 roaches into third, believe me, Terran is way ahead with reactor hellion fast third. That's like saying "oh terran should just make marauders before they can take their third" or really it would probably be more accurate to say something like medivacs, siege tanks, since Z is supposed to expand quicker.
There is no way to punish a fast third from zerg's end, unless you see the fast third of terran's building BEFORE your queens pop. This is because if you make 2 extra queens so you can take your third, your all-in will just be too late. And yea, overlord speed helps to see dumb terrans who do things like make the third part of the wall-off, but no zerg will want to sacrifice their overlord at 25 supply to see if you took a third, and even if they do, there are costs with that - terran will know zerg knows they took a quick third and oddly sac'ced it super early, as if to see if they should reactively roach/bane all-in, and is now unaware if they go for a macro game what terran is following up with after his expo.
Zerg still can't really see you took a fast third until it's too late for zerg to decide to roach/bane all-in, which requires you to grab your 2 gas around 35 supply. Even as fast as overlords are now, you won't see half the base if you sent it in at 30.
Roach/bane is definitely strong, but if you watch the GSL, you will see how every Terran scouts for it, and is not a big deal anymore. There's a reason why fast third is the standard in high level TvZ.
As for lategame zvt, like i said, i dont think it's balanced. but that didnt mean early game tvz was balanced either.
Yea you still have map control. But you cant deny creep or expansion. So helions now are expensive "tourists" that you can use as roache-scout. Cool!
No, just running hellions into zerg's base was never supposed to happen. The zerg buff made it so you aren't forced to both make 2 extra queens who can't do anything but stay on hold position at the ramp until the spine finishes while making a handful of extra lings, against what may just be 2-4 hellions instead of 4+, and even knowing hellions were coming, be forced to spend at minimum 400 minerals just to make sure hellions werent ran in, all the while denied a third until 60+ while terran can take his third before 35.
Hellions are still just as useful as before for macro play - denying creep (you now just have to spend more than 400 minerals to deny 300 minerals worth of zerg's counter to hellions), scouting, and minor harass. Just running into zerg's base which was sooo stupid is now not as strong. It seems recent play shows that 2-4 hellions at first is important for scouting, helps hold with baneling busts when going fast third, and hellion/banshee is strong as shit too.
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On June 21 2012 00:17 frezMki wrote:
Which upgrades are you talking about?
Hes talking about unit comps. why are you talking about upgrades?!:D
Because, unlike both protoss and zerg, terran upgrades don't affect both low tier units and high tier units so mixing them is.... not the best idea,
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I've been thinking about going some crazy all ins against mass queen zergs but then i though it would also get nerfed to ground so i better wait for HotS for a savior unit or roll a different race
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On June 21 2012 00:30 ArchAngelSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:17 frezMki wrote:
Which upgrades are you talking about?
Hes talking about unit comps. why are you talking about upgrades?!:D Because, unlike both protoss and zerg, terran upgrades don't affect both low tier units and high tier units so mixing them is.... not the best idea,
And keep whining that we can't beat a 5k gas army with out 1k is the best idea?
All this excuses are useless. Barely any Z is upgrading his air
-> Thor is fighting with 0-0 vs 0-0
Viking Upgrades are standard even with MMM
So blame the Upgrademechanic isn't the best idea either
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On June 21 2012 01:09 frezMki wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:30 ArchAngelSC wrote:On June 21 2012 00:17 frezMki wrote:
Which upgrades are you talking about?
Hes talking about unit comps. why are you talking about upgrades?!:D Because, unlike both protoss and zerg, terran upgrades don't affect both low tier units and high tier units so mixing them is.... not the best idea, And keep whining that we can't beat a 5k gas army with out 1k is the best idea? All this excuses are useless. Barely any Z is upgrading his air -> Thor is fighting with 0-0 vs 0-0 Viking Upgrades are standard even with MMM So blame the Upgrademechanic isn't the best idea either
You don't seem to understand what he is saying.
All 3 Races have the same upgrade mechanic for Air units, so that part is equal (maybe Toss has a slight advantage due to Shield Upgrades). However, when a Zerg (or a Protoss) upgrades something like Ground Attack/Armor for their low tier units like Zerglings, Zealots, Stalkers, etc., those upgrades ALSO affect their high tier units like Ultralisks and Colossus. A Terran on the other hand, who upgrades his Ground Attack/Armor for his low-tier units like Marines doesn't get ANY boost at all to his higher tier units like Tanks and Thors.
This severely restricts the viable unit compositions in the mid-game. Terran MUST choose one core unit composition (Bio or Mech) and usually one other supporting unit (Medivacs, Ravens, Ghosts?) and devote all of his upgrade time/money into maxing those out. This way he is always fighting at roughly equal footing in terms of upgrades. If Terran tries to deviate too far from this in the mid-game, then he will fall behind in upgrades by spreading himself too thin and will easily get A-moved by the superior upgraded army.
Now, if the game goes very very long, then both sides will presumably have upgraded everything so by then upgrades are no longer the deciding factor. It's the mid-game that is the problem. Protoss and Zerg at this time are unlocking and massing up higher tier units that come ready with inherited upgrades. Any higher tier Terran units made to counter start off at 0/0. The only way to fight on equal upgrades is to use your lower tier units... which are inherently a bit weaker anyway. Thus, either way you are fighting an uphill battle in the mid-game. If your opponent doesn't press his advantage or makes mistakes then Terran can catch up and win. But most good players will more often than not put Terran in a big enough hole mid-game that they cannot catch up.
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No you didn't understand my post.
In my Unitcomp Thors (mech) are dealing with the Air of the Z (BL/Corrupter)
They aren't upgraded aswell!!!!!!! Its 0-0 vs 0-0 in 90% of the games.
Your Bio is upgraded because this is your core in midgame, Air is upgraded aswell if you are good.
Thors don't need them though since Z Air just rarely upgraded. Even without upgrades Thors are insane against stacking BL/Corrupters
Just a faulty logic to say that you are fighting against a whole 3-3 army and there is no reason to get a mixarmy thats not true. In the end the Z is most likely bader upgraded than you because just 1 attackof the BL profits from his upgrades.
Yes this army needs time but during the nonstop Biotrades the Z will need ages to get his deathball too. Don't be so narrow-minded
But i don't care tbh. im using this comp.,im winning with this comp. If you want to explain your horrible winrate in TvZ keep doing it with faulty logic based excuses
If you don't try it don't blame it!
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On June 21 2012 02:45 frezMki wrote:No you didn't understand my post. In my Unitcomp Thors (mech) are dealing with the Air of the Z (BL/Corrupter) They aren't upgraded aswell!!!!!!! Its 0-0 vs 0-0 in 90% of the games. Your Bio is upgraded because this is your core in midgame, Air is upgraded aswell if you are good. Thors don't need them though since Z Air just rarely upgraded. Even without upgrades Thors are insane against stacking BL/Corrupters Just a faulty logic to say that you are fighting against a whole 3-3 army and there is no reason to get a mixarmy thats not true. In the end the Z is most likely bader upgraded than you because just 1 attackof the BL profits from his upgrades. Yes this army needs time but during the nonstop Biotrades the Z will need ages to get his deathball too. Don't be so narrow-minded But i don't care tbh. im using this comp.,im winning with this comp. If you want to explain your horrible winrate in TvZ keep doing it with faulty logic based excuses If you don't try it don't blame it!
You should at least be getting +1 Mech Weapons for tanks to oneshot lings.
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On June 21 2012 00:17 frezMki wrote:
Which upgrades are you talking about?
Hes talking about unit comps. why are you talking about upgrades?!:D
bio upgrades, mech upgrades, sky upgrades
going from bio -> mech, or mech -> bio, or bio->sky, etc makes you have a bunch of units that are
1) weaker
2) you don't have much production of those units
3) probably worse for long awhile (3/3 bio vs 3/3 lings/ultras/bl's/etc vs 1/1 or so sky/mech units vs 3/3 lings/ultras/bl's) or whatever
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On June 21 2012 02:53 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 02:45 frezMki wrote:No you didn't understand my post. In my Unitcomp Thors (mech) are dealing with the Air of the Z (BL/Corrupter) They aren't upgraded aswell!!!!!!! Its 0-0 vs 0-0 in 90% of the games. Your Bio is upgraded because this is your core in midgame, Air is upgraded aswell if you are good. Thors don't need them though since Z Air just rarely upgraded. Even without upgrades Thors are insane against stacking BL/Corrupters Just a faulty logic to say that you are fighting against a whole 3-3 army and there is no reason to get a mixarmy thats not true. In the end the Z is most likely bader upgraded than you because just 1 attackof the BL profits from his upgrades. Yes this army needs time but during the nonstop Biotrades the Z will need ages to get his deathball too. Don't be so narrow-minded But i don't care tbh. im using this comp.,im winning with this comp. If you want to explain your horrible winrate in TvZ keep doing it with faulty logic based excuses If you don't try it don't blame it! You should at least be getting +1 Mech Weapons for tanks to oneshot lings.
Im playing MMM dude,i dont need Tanks ^^
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On June 21 2012 02:45 frezMki wrote:No you didn't understand my post. In my Unitcomp Thors (mech) are dealing with the Air of the Z (BL/Corrupter) They aren't upgraded aswell!!!!!!! Its 0-0 vs 0-0 in 90% of the games. Your Bio is upgraded because this is your core in midgame, Air is upgraded aswell if you are good. Thors don't need them though since Z Air just rarely upgraded. Even without upgrades Thors are insane against stacking BL/Corrupters Just a faulty logic to say that you are fighting against a whole 3-3 army and there is no reason to get a mixarmy thats not true. In the end the Z is most likely bader upgraded than you because just 1 attackof the BL profits from his upgrades. Yes this army needs time but during the nonstop Biotrades the Z will need ages to get his deathball too. Don't be so narrow-minded But i don't care tbh. im using this comp.,im winning with this comp. If you want to explain your horrible winrate in TvZ keep doing it with faulty logic based excuses If you don't try it don't blame it!
He has a point. Zerg rarely gets more than 1/1 for air before late game, so broodlords/corruptors shouldn't be too far ahead of thors/vikings in upgrades. And you deal with ultralisks with marauders primarily anyway, so upgrades shouldn't be a *huge* deal going into late game. Zerg does have a slight advantage since lings/blings/ultras share upgrades, but not many Terrans complain about ultras anyway (except as a surprise tech switch), so that's kind of a null point.
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On June 21 2012 03:06 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 00:17 frezMki wrote:
Which upgrades are you talking about?
Hes talking about unit comps. why are you talking about upgrades?!:D bio upgrades, mech upgrades, sky upgrades going from bio -> mech, or mech -> bio, or bio->sky, etc makes you have a bunch of units that are 1) weaker 2) you don't have much production of those units 3) probably worse for long awhile (3/3 bio vs 3/3 lings/ultras/bl's/etc vs 1/1 or so sky/mech units vs 3/3 lings/ultras/bl's) or whatever
They point is that you dont go for a hardcore transition. You keep adding stuff to develop your game. To get a stronger army as the game goes on.
You start with your bio (+ upgrades / including ghosts), than you start adding your Thors (so you have alonger medivac production) and finally you add vikings and mix in a raven in between.
There is nothing "weak" because you keep upgrading your stuff.
If you just have Bio when the Z has 3-3ling ultra BL you should probably just stop playing the game No point to compare Bio only with a billion gas army.
The only thing which is critical where we must find a timing is Viking/Raven. You have your factory super early since you need it for your starport. Adding a Thor here and there will give you enough in a reasonable time where you need to be "scared"of BL Festor
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EPT
