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@ the mod who warned me for very first post. Hopeyou keep following
You want an evidence for my "unproofed" assumptions?
Watch the latest episode of State of the Game.They were discussing about this like 10 Minutes.
Guess what? A Zerg-Player Greg "IdrA" Fields even said that Z just profit from the scare-factor so he agrees with my pov.
As soon as the VoD is online i will post it.
Honestly? After which patch weren't all nerfed races-player claiming like "Oh my god i can't win anymore" and 1 week later the T get a 60+% winrate again?
This buff is just overrated. It changed the game sure. But not as dramatic as MMA (for example says). Because suprisingly all Terrans which didn't scored ANYTHING in the last few months are complaining. While Mvp/MKP keep winning 24/7 on their streams.
Big mysteries going on
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Nobody is talking about this but it seems to be a great idea. And especially like maps on ohana, you can just keep a hellion or another bunker on the side of their base so they can't spread creep out that way too.
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On June 21 2012 02:45 frezMki wrote:No you didn't understand my post. In my Unitcomp Thors (mech) are dealing with the Air of the Z (BL/Corrupter) They aren't upgraded aswell!!!!!!! Its 0-0 vs 0-0 in 90% of the games. Your Bio is upgraded because this is your core in midgame, Air is upgraded aswell if you are good. Thors don't need them though since Z Air just rarely upgraded. Even without upgrades Thors are insane against stacking BL/Corrupters Just a faulty logic to say that you are fighting against a whole 3-3 army and there is no reason to get a mixarmy thats not true. In the end the Z is most likely bader upgraded than you because just 1 attackof the BL profits from his upgrades. Yes this army needs time but during the nonstop Biotrades the Z will need ages to get his deathball too. Don't be so narrow-minded But i don't care tbh. im using this comp.,im winning with this comp. If you want to explain your horrible winrate in TvZ keep doing it with faulty logic based excuses  If you don't try it don't blame it!
Buddy we really don't care about your unit comp. You are basically saying that it works because Zergs you face supposedly don't upgrade their air "in 90% of the games.". Cool story bro. Once you get out of Gold, EVERY Zerg worth his salt will upgrade his air (sometimes with double Spire) if he makes Air units. Their air is usually just 1 level behind their ground upgrades. We don't really care if you can beat Zergs that don't upgrade their air (and apparently they stack all their air together also) because any halfway decent Zerg WILL upgrade their Air, WILL spread out their BL/Corr, and WILL smash you with little effort.
Second, if you do decide to get an full mixed army from all 3 Tech Paths as Terran , you WILL end up facing a full 3/3 army while your own army is only 2/1 or so and you will get demolished. It's just the way Terran upgrades work. You have to upgrade 6 things at a time if you want to keep up in upgrades with a full mixed army. The only time this changes is in the situation I pointed out earlier: in the very very late game when both sides have had time to upgrade everything. This is not even taking into account the fact that you would have to invest an enormous amount into production facilities to produce (and reproduce) a full mixed army. A Zerg would easily have his deathball with 3/3 ready across the board before you even got close to being able to stop him with your "mixed-army".
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Yep for sure
1 Game from GSL CodeS where Z has 3-3 Air / 3-3 Ground and T doesnt have 3-3Ground 2-0 Air and i will stop laughing ^^ So its not in my "Gold" league - its in KR GML the same ^^
I can give you a whole websites where the corrupters/BL stacks and isntwell upgraded. Which one do you want to have?
sc2rep.com
gosugamers.net
TakeTV archive
MLG ReplayPack??
I have everything for you from players which probably snack all of us while playing drunken
And like i said 10posts ago:
If you want to explain your "horrible"winrates because you cant beat a 4-5k gas army with barely 1,5k keep enjoying it. But dont be so narrow-minded and judge things before testing them If everybody would think so narrow-minded while using faulty logic we shouldn't even play a competitive game or just remove 2 races so we don't face new challenges.
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On June 21 2012 03:56 frezMki wrote:
Yep for sure
1 Game from GSL CodeS where Z has 3-3 Air / 3-3 Ground and T doesnt have 3-3Ground 2-0 Air and i will stop laughing ^^ So its not in my "Gold" league - its in KR GML the same ^^
I can give you a whole websites where the corrupters/BL stacks and isntwell upgraded. Which one do you want to have?
sc2rep.com
gosugamers.net
TakeTV archive
MLG ReplayPack??
I have everything for you from players which probably snack all of us while playing drunken
Once again, you are talking nonsense.
Terran 3/3 "Ground" consists of both Bio AND Mech units. That means Terran would have to upgrade 3/3 Bio + 3/3 Mech + 2/0 Air which is absurd except in super late game situations. Not to mention that even if Terran did manage this absurd case, you basically just admitted they are still behind in upgrades. Otherwise it would be 3/3 Air+Ground vs. 3/3 Air+Ground. Case closed there.
But go ahead and try to find a pro game where the Terran gets 3/3 across the board at the same time the Zerg does. It simply doesn't exist because as many people have tried to tell you, Terran is restricted by their upgrade paths. It is locked in the second you decide on Bio or Mech and locked in even more when you decide on your support units. You can't just decide one moment to stop building Bio and switch to Mech because all of your Mech is going to be at lower upgrades.
What you probably meant to say was that Terran would have his CORE ground units, either Bio or Mech (but not both), at 3/3 and either Mech Attack and/or Air Weapons at 2/0 depending on what they chose as their core/support units. This is the more plausible scenario against Zergs when they hit 3/3.
You also don't seem to understand what you are saying when you say a "mixed comp". That DOES NOT mean a Bio core supported by a few Mech units like Tanks/Thors and a few air units like Medivacs/Ravens. That is STANDARD. Everyone knows how to play that and how to upgrade for that. That is also the standard play that is continuously being beaten by the top-end Zergs. When you advocate a "mixed comp" it's trying to go for all three tech trees simultaneously and keeping up in upgrades which is outright suicide.
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-.-
Ok you are right ^^ Keep whining and let me play my build which is working<3 Keep living in your narrow-mind world because your production line (bio mech switch) showed me that you didn't even understand 1 sentence :D
Over & Out
User was warned for this post
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Wow... I make this thread months ago and it got locked because it was deemed "useless" or something. Same thread exists and now it's left open....
Anyways I've been macroing hard in all my games lately and I'm losing all of my games against Toss. All they gotta do is macro just as hard and then storm their way through to a win, along with having 3 Colossi in their army.
As for my games against Zerg, I gave up using Hellions today and going for 2 Rax expand like the good ol days. It actually works fairly well in the early game to mid game, as I get much more marines earlier, making it possible to pressure them into making zerglings instead drones and relying on just having 4 queens for defence.
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On June 20 2012 23:48 LucidityDark wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 16:44 Entirety wrote:
...and then Zergs learn to split their Infestors and burrow them. Then they throw in Banelings so we're forced to split our bio, even after EMPs.
If they can throw in enough banelings to not just instantly die to mmm dps then you let them quadrouple expand before pool while you sat on 2 base for 30 minutes. You complain about not affording gas, and then ignore the zerg gas needs, or in other words you spout hypocritical nonsense. I don't enjoy seeing people ask for a more micro intensive game (many people saying that in other threads), and then complain when the game is more micro intensive (many people in recent threads about balance).
Let me clear up some things. I was referring to a potential mixed Terran composition with Thors, Vikings, Ravens, Ghosts, etc. In this case, the MMM ball will not be huge, it will be a "support" army. You don't need a million Banelings to kill this, you will need in the order of 10 Banelings. If the Terran splits well, it will require 20 Banelings.
Well, 20 Banelings + your standard Brood Lord/Infestor/Queen/Corrupter/support army isn't going to require more than 4 bases. Either way, the Zerg can afford this because the Zerg arrives into the lategame after droning heavily while extremely safe with his 6 Queens.
So the Terran supposedly sits on 2 base for 30 minutes. In my personal opinion, if the Terran decides to take a 4th and 5th and 6th, etc., the Terran is playing into the Zerg's hands. The Zerg wants this to happen, the Zerg wants a lategame scenario where the Terran has ridiculous micro demands.
Yes, micro is a good aspect of the game. It is not good, however, when the Terran's micro demands are absurdly high in comparison to the Zerg's. The Zerg lategame army is simply better, so Terrans have to micro better to combat this. This is an example of "you have to severely outplay the Zerg in order to win", which isn't what this game is about. You shouldn't have to be a league above your opponent in order to win.
What if we play TvZ like we play TvP? Take a mass-upgraded bio ball with Medivac support and do constant dropping, poking, doom drops, etc. The goal is to stretch the Zerg's multitasking ability and eventually, the Zerg will fail to send the correct amount of units to one front. 4 Marauders and 8 Marines at the front, poking at the natural, while there is a 16 Marine drop in the main and a 4 Marauder + 4 Marine poke at the 3rd, all with Medivac support. Then, when the Zerg sends over Zerglings to deal with one area, pick up in the Medivac and leave.
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On June 21 2012 07:00 Entirety wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 23:48 LucidityDark wrote:On June 20 2012 16:44 Entirety wrote:
...and then Zergs learn to split their Infestors and burrow them. Then they throw in Banelings so we're forced to split our bio, even after EMPs.
If they can throw in enough banelings to not just instantly die to mmm dps then you let them quadrouple expand before pool while you sat on 2 base for 30 minutes. You complain about not affording gas, and then ignore the zerg gas needs, or in other words you spout hypocritical nonsense. I don't enjoy seeing people ask for a more micro intensive game (many people saying that in other threads), and then complain when the game is more micro intensive (many people in recent threads about balance). Let me clear up some things. I was referring to a potential mixed Terran composition with Thors, Vikings, Ravens, Ghosts, etc. In this case, the MMM ball will not be huge, it will be a "support" army. You don't need a million Banelings to kill this, you will need in the order of 10 Banelings. If the Terran splits well, it will require 20 Banelings. Well, 20 Banelings + your standard Brood Lord/Infestor/Queen/Corrupter/support army isn't going to require more than 4 bases. Either way, the Zerg can afford this because the Zerg arrives into the lategame after droning heavily while extremely safe with his 6 Queens. So the Terran supposedly sits on 2 base for 30 minutes. In my personal opinion, if the Terran decides to take a 4th and 5th and 6th, etc., the Terran is playing into the Zerg's hands. The Zerg wants this to happen, the Zerg wants a lategame scenario where the Terran has ridiculous micro demands. Yes, micro is a good aspect of the game. It is not good, however, when the Terran's micro demands are absurdly high in comparison to the Zerg's. The Zerg lategame army is simply better, so Terrans have to micro better to combat this. This is an example of "you have to severely outplay the Zerg in order to win", which isn't what this game is about. You shouldn't have to be a league above your opponent in order to win. What if we play TvZ like we play TvP? Take a mass-upgraded bio ball with Medivac support and do constant dropping, poking, doom drops, etc. The goal is to stretch the Zerg's multitasking ability and eventually, the Zerg will fail to send the correct amount of units to one front. 4 Marauders and 8 Marines at the front, poking at the natural, while there is a 16 Marine drop in the main and a 4 Marauder + 4 Marine poke at the 3rd, all with Medivac support. Then, when the Zerg sends over Zerglings to deal with one area, pick up in the Medivac and leave.
You're still counting on the zerg messing up with that strategy so it's not really a good idea imo
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fast three base with hellion banshee pressure seems to be the best solution right now. Demuslim has been making it work really well.
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fast three base without tanks is autoloss vs roach/baneling/quick mutas, not cool
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I cant get my fast 3rd cc to work. It feels like even if use it as a macro cc its not worth it cos zerg economy will still be far ahead and it just delays my tech and my push too much. Even if i rush for a 3rd cc after my first set of hellions, It cant even be used cos I cant take my 3rd until tanks or alot of bunkers.
I have been watching alot of winning tvz games from players like kas and he plays a brilliant tvz but they rely on a more aggressive 2 base attack and are really tempo based.
Anyways im prolly just gonna go back to 2rax expand into tanks and some really brutal 2base tank marine.
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fast three base without tanks is autoloss vs roach/baneling/quick mutas, not cool
which is not true at all - if you scout the roach/bane all-in, which every terran player does these days by simply having an SCV check for a third at 40-45 Terran supply (which will be 50-55 Zerg supply, which is the latest they put down the third). No third base taken, build bunkers and start up siege tanks and scan to make sure Zerg has at least full saturation in his main and 2 gases taken instead of anything less than 30 drones, 2 gas, and things like evo, lair, etc.
I cant get my fast 3rd cc to work. It feels like even if use it as a macro cc its not worth it cos zerg economy will still be far ahead and it just delays my tech and my push too much. Even if i rush for a 3rd cc after my first set of hellions, It cant even be used cos I cant take my 3rd until tanks or alot of bunkers.
Zerg should be able to crush your push anyways. I am telling you, better players these days use fast third instead of pushing before third. Zergs just crush such pushes too easily. Even pushing off 3 base is a bit outdated, you might want to go for viking/thor/ghost production instead of more rine/tank to push off 3 base.
Your first set of hellions are important to check for the third. No third = all-in coming, one way or another. Scan to confirm what Zerg is doing, as well as send hellions into natural.
fast three base with hellion banshee pressure seems to be the best solution right now. Demuslim has been making it work really well.
yea this is ridiculously strong, but your tank count is kind of low. I think it's best followed up with just taking a fourth rather than pushing with a rine/tank deathball push.
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Is it me or almost 50% is the ladder is zerg? I played 10 games today, 7 zerg, 2 protoss, 1 terran. Went 1-6 against zerg. Sigh, fuck this patch. Never hated the game more.
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I wish Zergs would be less greedy right now. I want to experiment what works well against the new Zerg right now. But the sad thing is everything works, except harassing the zerg in the early game. But well that isn't really true. Every harass that doesn't has to go through the land way works as well. Especially simply sniping the pool.
Gas first seems to be pretty good against the techless zerg right now. Or putting down upgraded pfs everywhere that isn't protected by a wall of barracks.
Just remember the queens can't protect the tumors and the bases at the same time. And a raven really helps cleaning up those 100 tumors instead of scanning and a +2 auto turret on creep drives queens away quiet effective. 3 armor is something nice to have. A bunker also works, can't go on creep though.
For me right now TvZ is a bit boring. But I hope terrans will soon catch up and zerg will play safer again or Blizzard might enhance the terran defense abilities, which are terrible strong already, but underused. It would fix this issue where terran tries to be as greedy as the zerg or toss and then gets overrun, but in the end sc2 would become a 10 minutes no rush game.
But right now it looks really grim for terrans. Queens soon light armor maybe ? (kidding)
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The real problem is Terran has so many abilities that are incredibly overpowered in the early game, such as:
- Marines in general.
- The ability to allin with all your SCVs which can tank for your ranged, mass repair stuff, and bunker your opponent in if you win even one battle.
- Can 100% completely deny ALL scouting by the opponent until Lair/Robotics tech is out. You can't scout what units they have, how much gas is being mined, you can't even scout if they're making an expansion or not.
That the entire race suffers for it in the mid and late games. Marauders are 100/25 units that take 30 seconds to build from a 200/25/90 structure. (more like 250/25/90 when you count lost mining time) For comparison, Stalkers, a 125/50 unit, build out of a 150 mineral structure in 32 seconds. Marines take 25 seconds to make a 50 mineral unit, Zealots build in 28.
The problem is if Terran production wasn't crippled like this, they could autowin every game with proxied rax, pulling all their workers, and/or scouting denial. Thors got nerfed over and over to make up for the fact that you can proxy the factory then bring 16 SCVs to repair it. Vikings lose to literally any unit that can shoot back. Ravens are 200 gas because if they cost a sane amount of gas Protoss could never beat 1/1/1 ever. Banshees take 60 seconds to build, meanwhile Phoenix and Mutalisks build in half the time because if Banshees built in 30 seconds you could just put a bunker at your natural ramp and then make 4 of them before your opponent could even figure out whether or not you're expanding.
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> Use the metagame for you. Z want 3 bases ? Get you too 3 bases, for example use a MMA build (1 rax FE into reac hellion double banshee cloack fast third) and at 11:00 you are ready to give him a hell of mid-game with retentless attack on 3 bases 
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On June 22 2012 06:32 Xequecal wrote:
The real problem is Terran has so many abilities that are incredibly overpowered in the early game, such as:
- Marines in general.
- The ability to allin with all your SCVs which can tank for your ranged, mass repair stuff, and bunker your opponent in if you win even one battle.
- Can 100% completely deny ALL scouting by the opponent until Lair/Robotics tech is out. You can't scout what units they have, how much gas is being mined, you can't even scout if they're making an expansion or not.
That the entire race suffers for it in the mid and late games. Marauders are 100/25 units that take 30 seconds to build from a 200/25/90 structure. (more like 250/25/90 when you count lost mining time) For comparison, Stalkers, a 125/50 unit, build out of a 150 mineral structure in 32 seconds. Marines take 25 seconds to make a 50 mineral unit, Zealots build in 28.
The problem is if Terran production wasn't crippled like this, they could autowin every game with proxied rax, pulling all their workers, and/or scouting denial. Thors got nerfed over and over to make up for the fact that you can proxy the factory then bring 16 SCVs to repair it. Vikings lose to literally any unit that can shoot back. Ravens are 200 gas because if they cost a sane amount of gas Protoss could never beat 1/1/1 ever. Banshees take 60 seconds to build, meanwhile Phoenix and Mutalisks build in half the time because if Banshees built in 30 seconds you could just put a bunker at your natural ramp and then make 4 of them before your opponent could even figure out whether or not you're expanding.
That's the mindset of the hivemind one year ago. Back when MKP was winning with marines only and 1/1/1 was all over the place. It got figured it out and the metagame evolved. To say that marines and scvs are overpowered is the same as saying that the Earth is the center of the world. Outdated as fuck. Welcome to 2012. Marines are fine, so are scv's, and so is the entire early game of Terran.
The problem here is Terran's lategame blows compared to the other two races and now that lategame (in the case of TvZ) can be rushed and easily reached in 15 minutes without suffering any pressure at all.
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On June 20 2012 14:43 frezMki wrote:
Ouch ouch ouch
Faulty Logic @Alacast
Terran Deathball seems to be weaker because its like 1/4 of the Z's Gas.
We are fighting with like 1-1,5k Gas against 4-5k (not exactly but you know what i mean)
So if we win a Fight its gg,if we lose we keep reinforcing cheaper.
Build up an army which is worth the same and T willnot be considered as a weaker Lategame-Race in TvZ
So Terran can remax faster than Zerg now?
Even if T does manage to remax faster somehow, Zerg can be soooo much more efficient with fungal and BLs. Why throw lings at an army when you can throw free broodlings and spells with regenerating energy at them?
And even then if Terran miraculously survives all that, what's the answer to the Zerg's own remax?
Faulty logic right back at you.
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On June 22 2012 14:51 goFLiP wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:32 Xequecal wrote:
The real problem is Terran has so many abilities that are incredibly overpowered in the early game, such as:
- Marines in general.
- The ability to allin with all your SCVs which can tank for your ranged, mass repair stuff, and bunker your opponent in if you win even one battle.
- Can 100% completely deny ALL scouting by the opponent until Lair/Robotics tech is out. You can't scout what units they have, how much gas is being mined, you can't even scout if they're making an expansion or not.
That the entire race suffers for it in the mid and late games. Marauders are 100/25 units that take 30 seconds to build from a 200/25/90 structure. (more like 250/25/90 when you count lost mining time) For comparison, Stalkers, a 125/50 unit, build out of a 150 mineral structure in 32 seconds. Marines take 25 seconds to make a 50 mineral unit, Zealots build in 28.
The problem is if Terran production wasn't crippled like this, they could autowin every game with proxied rax, pulling all their workers, and/or scouting denial. Thors got nerfed over and over to make up for the fact that you can proxy the factory then bring 16 SCVs to repair it. Vikings lose to literally any unit that can shoot back. Ravens are 200 gas because if they cost a sane amount of gas Protoss could never beat 1/1/1 ever. Banshees take 60 seconds to build, meanwhile Phoenix and Mutalisks build in half the time because if Banshees built in 30 seconds you could just put a bunker at your natural ramp and then make 4 of them before your opponent could even figure out whether or not you're expanding. That's the mindset of the hivemind one year ago. Back when MKP was winning with marines only and 1/1/1 was all over the place. It got figured it out and the metagame evolved. To say that marines and scvs are overpowered is the same as saying that the Earth is the center of the world. Outdated as fuck. Welcome to 2012. Marines are fine, so are scv's, and so is the entire early game of Terran. The problem here is Terran's lategame blows compared to the other two races and now that lategame (in the case of TvZ) can be rushed and easily reached in 15 minutes without suffering any pressure at all.
What he's saying is that our lategame blows because otherwise our lategame units could be used to perfom some retardedly powerful all-ins, a bit like protoss gateway units suck because of warpgate tech.
That said sure Terran lategame sucks, but is buffing it really a solution? Yeah, it would balance out blizz's TvZ stats, but if it just creates a passive "turtle to deathball" style on both sides, similar to what we see in ZvP i'm not sure it's a good solution.
TvZ before the queen buff was interesting because of this race against the clock that forced terran to be agressive, the patch essentially allowed Zerg to be a lot more greedy and therefore shortened the time given to the terran to do damage, forcing us to either allin/cheese or die lategame.
The problem is more that it should not be possible for zerg to just rush lategame+3bases in 15mn without using any larva on units, that's just not interesting and pretty bad design imo. Changes should focus on increasing the length of midgame, giving the terran time to actually do something before Zerg hits its critical mass of BL/infestor, forcing Zerg to have a midgame step instead of just skipping from early game (queens/spines/drones) directly to lategame (bl/infestor).
Buffing terran lategame would create quite a lot of problems:
It would makes our early allins retardedly powerful (buff tanks and 1/1/1 is going to become unstoppable TvP once again etc...)
Also, there has to be still some incentive to have some early and midgame action. If both races have a strong lategame and strong defense it's going to create some retarded 3/4base passive turtle games like we currently see in ZvP.
Lastly there's still the problem of the transition, there's no point having a strong lategame if you can't get to it, and our upgrade and production system forces us to commit and stick to either bio/mech/air, since any transition from one to another is extremely expensive, slow and dangerous.
So yeah our lategame could use a small buff (possibly to mechanics that aren't used much so it doesnt break other parts of the game *hsm wink wink*), but there has to be other changes aswell to make it so the matchup doesnt stay boring to watch. Giving Zerg better scouting while nerfing their early and midgame defensive capabilities could be a good thing, that way they could see agression coming but they would have to actually commit ressources and time to defend it.
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EPT
