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in PvZ obviously, i cant speak for the other races. The situation im talking about is a FFE build.
Sorry i was messing around in my previous thread, i just wanted to address a huge issue that the queen buff has brought up in early game PvZ. Simply put protoss cant pressure zerg in the early game anymore(this statement obviously doesnt factor in any mistakes made from the zerg's side, i.e: making a round of drones before an attack etc., basically standard gameplay stuff). By opening with a mass queen b.o(5'ish) zergs can delay theyre gases and eco up much more than before because the new queen style is safe against any early game pressure b.o's that protoss can do, b.os such as the voidray into phoenix style or a 4gate pressure. Protoss HAS to do be able to harass zerg in the early game or else they fall behind in eco, by giving the queen a range buff blizzard has basically removed any cost-effective way for us to harass zerg's, its bad enought that stephano can max out at 11minutes while holding off early game pressure as it is, imagine what'll happen after this buff..
remember the HOTS thread i made a while back that talked about how stupid the replicator was? u might not agree with what im saying now because the patch is still new but 1-2 months down the line ull understand how ridiculously strong this buff is
EDIT: I didnt address the reason why the buff makes it extremely hard for protoss to harass zerg in the early game because i thought it was common sense, basically zerg players had to gas before in order to make roachs so they could hold off 4gate builds because queens were kit-able with zealot stalker pressure builds(if zerg didnt gas and had lings + queens), however by giving the queen 5 range zerg's now have a viable way to counter both ground + air openers because you can have queen's tank zealot shots while your lings surround them and you cant kit queens that have ling support with your stalkers anymore, you would just end up getting overrun. The combination of transfusion + a good creep spread makes any gateway pressure build very risky.. so basically zerg's can do extremely eco-orientated builds such as a 3hatch into ling speed into a 4th hatch while holding off 4gate pressures now, once they hold the attack off they can start producing drones from 4hatchs which would give them a huge econ advantage, by playing this style zerg also gains alot of flexibility because of the map control that they get by having 2-3 extra queens spreading creep around the map
EDIT2: What does this mean? IMO
On May 12 2012 08:55 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 08:50 MorroW wrote:On May 12 2012 08:41 mrtomjones wrote:On May 12 2012 08:03 MorroW wrote:
zvp doesnt change nowhere nearly as much as in zvt
in zvt it might actually be an issue. i feel like i can go for my standard 4queen build except skimp on the sim city part more aswell as spinecrawler. i also feel like i can take 3rd base without getting roaches or alot of lings to chase the hellions away. this goes for creep spreading as well.
its not game breaking probably but zvt is like a huge load off where i dont have to worry about hellions abusing me too much anymore.
terrans will soon find other ways to adapt im sure (i as a terran myself already got some ideas cooking and i dont look at this like a huge issue in my tvz play)
zvp i had an idea maybe more queens are good now for creep spreading transfuses if need be and just general defense purposes against 8 minute timings. maybe this means zerg can delay their roach warren further.
if this is true all it does is just allow for slightly more drones (not alot actually) and ofcourse pretty damn good creep spread once hes pressure is over or if he didnt pressure ofc
im not gonna talk about zvp balance but as far as some extra queens early on in zvp goes i think its a solid idea and needs experimenting.
if it turns out its good (not guaranteed by any means) i dont think it will be game breaking.
zvp was at that point where creep spreading was something we couldnt afford early on causing lackluster creep spread into the midgame which was just kind of sad. i think the change is good for that reason
to jump already and say queens totally shut down 8minute pressure stuff is kind of silly seeing how both roaches and spines are still more cost efficient defense when it comes to actually defending
another thing thats worth mentioning about zvp is 1gate expands with stalker/zealot pressure from 1gateway will not be nearly as effective now. zerg probably dont even need a spine anymore to deal with stalker kiting (seeing how stalkers cant kite queens now). but again thats not a huge deal Do you think that those few extra edges that it could give might make that big roach timing that most zergs are doing lately even harder to hold off or do you feel as if the effects on that would be so minimal it would make no difference? i feel they would be weaker seeing how if you make roaches to defend these kind of timings you actually get the roaches and keep them for later where as queens provide nothing to boost your army later on either going the extra queens style for defenses will make most sense to transition into something defensive macro oriented where the creep boost actually means alot for you it would be much stronger because your 4th hatch would be up quicker so you could drone up ALOT faster than normal, once the pressure is held off u saturate all ur bases and make extra gas's(5 or 6 gases instead of the normal 4 which was the standard thing to do for a 200/200 roach allin) to make up for not mining any gas in the early game, i didnt test it but i would assume that you would also be able to take a 4th if you were to play this style + do a 200 200 mass roach push because of the huge econ boost that u gain from the early game, makes the roach push much less allinish and theoretically it should be as fast as stephanos normal 200 200 roach push
EDIT3: On May 13 2012 01:21 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 00:59 Moosegills wrote:On May 13 2012 00:34 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 13 2012 00:05 Huragius wrote:On May 12 2012 23:57 AGIANTSMURF wrote:On May 12 2012 23:45 Huragius wrote:
PvZ is not so much affected. Noticeably probe scouting will be harder so there are going to be more greedy/allin-ish styles from the zerg side. However, TvZ early game openings and harass forms are going to be GREATLY affected. Terrans should be creating these threads, not protosses. did you even read the fucking post? why do you waste your time writing mindless nonsense and yeah, pvz early-mid game is feeling like more of a struggle every day. i find the meta game is begining to shift towards really fast thirds in an attempt to hold off the maxed roach push and come out with decent econ. but thats hard enough as it is. If zergs have the gas and tech for a faster hive transtion to fall back on as TT1 is predicting (since zergs would get faster 5-6 gasses) then things are just going to get a hell of a lot harder  Yeah I did read the fucking post. And no, zergs will not defend 4 gate from FFE only with queens and slow lings. They will need certain number spines depending on queen count which will hurt their eco as much as getting that speed. your missing the point. They will be able to defend with speed lings (alot) and a handful of queens, the point is that they will spend LESS on defense than they do now by pumping out roaches If you pump a lot of speedlings to defend zealots its incredibly larvae ineffiecient. If you are building up to 6 or so queens to defend pushes, your economy will actually be even at best because you aren't building as many drones as possible, and then cutting. If you are building a bunch of queens you are constantly building defense as a terran might. Queens take time to build, which means as you are building up whatever your mass of queens is, you aren't spending that money on drones, aka hurting your econ early. If you use the logic that the zerg doesn't have to get gas now, thats fine, it just means you see 5 queens with your zealot stalker before warp in and build a nexus instead. Adding 2 range to queens doesn't change the fact that they only tickle pretty much this, after testing a heavy queen style with a bunch of players i basically came to this realisation. queen ling is good but its not the most cost efficient way of dealing with 4gate pressure because its super larva intensive + queens are ubber expensive so making more than 4 hurts ur drone count/tech i think i might have over exagerrated on this one : D, queens are obv alot better now but they wont break pvz ^.^
EDIT4: On May 14 2012 06:07 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 05:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 14 2012 04:56 gogatorsfoster wrote:On May 13 2012 08:04 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 12 2012 10:35 mTwTT1 wrote:On May 12 2012 10:20 Ryze wrote:
How many queens are we talking about here?
A zerg player going mass queens blindly would have a really weak mid game especially if they delayed gas because of it, i see no way I could pressure an early third from protoss if I opted to make 8 queens in the early game and delay all of my gases until the 7 or 8 minute mark
queens also have poor dps in the first place and it is even worse vs armor, which all protoss units have, plus they take up alot of supply which would be bad for your overall army comp in the midgame as well
unless its a relatively small map any zerg player going mass queens should have no way of being aggressive until hive, which should be exploitable for the protoss player id imagine 4-5, if the protoss goes for a non gas fast 3rd base build u can run them over with a ling roach baneling timing push(on 3 hatchs without lair, u have to take 4 gases asap once u scout it) and if they do a standard early 3rd im sure that u can still maxout on roachs at 11-12minutes while having an even stronger econ You can't max earlier than 12 min with 5 queens unless you make them late, but that defeats the purpose of making them anyways. I think if zerg scouts that 4 gate pressure off of FFE they should have that option to completely shut it down anyways. zvp, even before this patch, has revolved so heavily around scouting that if zerg scouts exactly what the protoss is doing they have a very high chance of winning. I personally wish zvp wasn't about toss hiding all their shit and zerg scouting it or guessing what to do but I'm not sure how blizzard could change this. Also, if the zerg blindly makes 5 queens and you go for a fast third the roach max will be delayed enough that you should be able to hold it for sure. 5 Queens would not slow down your max. They cost no larvae at all. Assumming that they are making 3 normally an extra 2 would be 300 minerals and no larvae. 300 minerals is 10% of your worker count at 12 minutes. 5 queens does 4 doesnt i think delayed gas b.os are more viable now but i dont it would be too efficient if the zerg was to roach tech after that seeing as roach speed would be heavily delayed, it makes the zerg super susceptible to 2base timings.. teching into 3 base ling infestor/ling muta(not very safe if ur not sure ur up against a 2basing toss) or bane ling makes more sense cus u could hold off timing pushs while ecoing up, even tho making lings in the early game is extremely larva intensive having a 4th hatch makes up for it and u could then power up really fast while having good creep spread + a strong eco
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I am TT2
User was banned for this post.
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Unfortunately it's probably too late for Blizzard to change their mind.
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What do you say to the people who argue that Zergs lack of success against Protoss in the GSL this season indicates that balance actually favors the Protoss? Not necessarily an argument I believe in but what is your take on it?
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Would not be surprised if a buff made for early game ZvT create still more shit play for ZvP.
I feel TvZ is fine, just get 6 hellions instead of 4, and queens wont come bogger you.
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I hate authors style, "legit" discussion as if other ones wouldnt be and its the only valid one. Just shows the QQ attitute
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isnt the range buff only in ground ?
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I can't see how it affects 4 gate pressure. By the time you pressure the 3rd (for me its 7.30-7.40 7 zealots) they can max have 2 queens. And + 2 range doesnt really aid them with killing zealots.
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Poll: Is the new queen buff early game breaking for T and P ?NO (720) 53% YES (530) 39% I DON'T CARE (99) 7% 1349 total votes Your vote: Is the new queen buff early game breaking for T and P ? (Vote): YES
(Vote): NO
(Vote): I DON'T CARE
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how does the patch effect stargate pressure, they only changed range for ground.
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zerg is a lot more fragile early game, with this buff it is gonna be easier for it to hold early agression.
I believe protoss players will strugle with it for a while, but not so much of a deal
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In what way is this a legitimate discussion?
More like a "This is my opinion on a change and it's absolutely correct even though this change has only been out for a few days" thread.
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On May 12 2012 07:41 Eee wrote:
how does the patch effect stargate pressure, they only changed range for ground.
this ^ i dont understand they say voids and phoenixs got worse when nothing changed in the air range lol...
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I would say it is also harder to scout for Protoss, queens have much higher chance of killing the probes than now cause u can go around the creep but since they have much more range it is much easier for ur probe to get killed.
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On May 12 2012 07:41 Eee wrote:
how does the patch effect stargate pressure, they only changed range for ground.
Zerg is more likely to make more Queens because they will be as good to defend ground attack.
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I don't necessarily disagree with you, but could you at least post some replays or something to back up your point? A +2 range buff is a big deal, but a 5ish queen opening being able to shut down all early game pressure sounds like an exaggeration.
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Off topic, good job in the NASL TT1.
Would a better buff have been 4 range queens? On hand that would give protoss/terran the chance to kite again, but on the other zerg needs a little more solid defense so this buff is kind of needed in this regard. Also you can still nulify queens with phoenixes.
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How is this even going to effect void ray/phoenix openings? Wasn't the range buff only for the ground attack? Queen damage wasn't changed either so I don't see why pressures would be that much less effective. Sure the queen might get in a few extra hits, but it is highly unlikely that it would make a major difference in a fight.
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EPT
