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A Bit of Simple Khaydarin Amulet Math

Forum Index > SC2 General
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thethingexe
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia28 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-27 04:15:17
February 26 2011 06:38 GMT
#1
Khaydarin Amulet
150 Minerals 150 Gas 110s Research Time
Gives High Templar 25 more starting energy

Important FACTS to consider:
+ Show Spoiler +
*Every unit in Starcraft 2 regenerates energy at 0.5625 energy per second (Except for Point Defense Drone, which regenerates energy at 1.0 energy per second)

*A High Templar warps in with 50 starting energy. And has a maximum pool of 200 energy.

*It takes a High Templar 50 energy to cast Feedback, 75 energy to cast Psionic Storm.

*A High Templar can cast storm the moment it warps in with the Amulet upgrade.

*A High Templar has a 55s Build Time, 36.6667s Chrono Boosted with two Chrono Boosts in a Gateway.
It has a 50s Build Time, 33.3333s Chrono Boosted with two Chrono Boosts and a 5s warp in time in a Warpgate.


What this means:
+ Show Spoiler +
^Therefore, it takes a High Templar, starting at 50 energy, 44.4444s to regenerate 25 energy to have enough energy for its first storm.
It takes 177.7778s to regenerate 100 energy to have enough energy to cast its first two storms at the same time.
It takes 133.3333s to regenerate 75 energy to have enough energy to cast a single storm from a "spent" high templar.

^A High Templar with Amulet upgrade, starting at 75 energy, does not need to wait to cast its first storm.
It takes 133.3333s to regenerate 75 energy to have enough energy to cast its first two storms at the same time.
It takes 133.3333s to regenerate 75 energy to have enough energy to cast a single storm from a "spent" high templar.

^At maximum energy (Which takes 266.6667s starting at 50 energy, 222.2222s starting at 75 energy), a High Templar can cast two storms and have 50 energy left over. It can not cast a third storm. It would have to wait another 44.4444s to regenerate 25 energy.

^In the time it takes either Amulet or Storm to research, 110s, a HT would have regenerated 61 energy (111 total), allowing for its first storm and 36 energy left over.

^In the time it takes to both Amulet and Storm to research, 220s, a HT would have regenerated 123 energy (173 total), allowing for its first two storms at the same time and 23 energy left over.

^In the time it takes to warp in a High Templar, 50s Build Time + 5s warp in, a previously warped High Templar would have regenerated 30 energy (80 total), allowing for its first storm and 5 energy left over.

^In the time it takes to warp in a Chrono Boosted High Templar, 33.3333s Build Time + 5s warp in, a previously warped High Templar would have regenerated 21 energy (71 total), it must wait 7.1111s to regenerate 4 energy needed for its first storm.

^With the Amulet upgrade, we essentially save 44.4444s to cast the first storm from a "fresh" High Templar. The Amulet upgrade is essentially useless for every storm after the first, unless two storms are cast at the same time. And in the time it takes to research, we would already have energy for storm.

†Please note, all time is in Starcraft 2 Game Time, which is 1.38 times faster than real time on the "faster" setting. Meaning the 44.4444 seconds in Starcraft 2 is actually 32.2222 in real time.


Opinions (Flamebait):
+ Show Spoiler +
Considering that the Amulet saved 44.4444 seconds per High Templar, and that was all it did and it doesn't help for subsequent storms. Blizzard's decision can be seen as somewhat reasonable. And considering you are waiting 110 seconds for the Amulet Research time and 55 seconds to warp in a HT anyway. Timings to have HTs in your army with storm ready should still be okay.

But the removal of the upgrade means the removal of "warp-in storms", which is a huge hit to the usefulness of High Templar. High Templars can no longer defend against drops or become warp-in reinforcements mid battle. Saving two storms per HT timing is also affected. This changes the way High Templars are used and may result in a shift of playstyles.

High Templars will now have to wait to cast its first storm, "warp-in storms" are gone, but storm is still just as powerful when used in a typical engagement, devastating bio balls will feel no different. If anything at all, protoss users will just need to be more careful when aiming storms and try not spamming them as much.

Concerns about protoss becoming more Colossus orientated late game do come to mind, but maybe just simply out of misinformation about the extent of the nerf.

More thoughts:
*If High Templars are getting a nerf, Archons should at least get a buff?

*Why not just reduce the damage of storm? Or increase the duration of it, but keeping the damage output the same?

*HT's Feedback may be pretty cool if BCs really do catch on with their buff.


I actually did all the maths for a suggestion I posted over at PTR forums to be ignored by Blizzard... A lot of the info is a direct copy paste from there, so unless you want to read my suggestion it won't be necessary. But it's basically to increase energy regen rate. [Link]

Edited/Added:
Extra Math:
+ Show Spoiler +
High Templars cost 50 Minerals, 150 Gas and have a 55 second build time.

Two fully saturated bases with 8 Patches and 2 Geysers per base will harvest ~27.2 Minerals and ~7.6 Gas per second.

In 110 seconds, the time it takes to research either Amulet or Storm, we would harvest 836 Gas.

We are not using any Gas on anything else other than HTs and assume we start with 0 Gas...

Then, we can make 5 HTs in that time.
1st HT at ~20 seconds + 5 seconds warp in time.
2nd HT at ~39 seconds + 5 seconds warp in time.
3rd HT at ~59 seconds + 5 seconds warp in time.
4th HT at ~79 seconds + 5 seconds warp in time.
5th HT at ~99 seconds + 5 seconds warp in time.

The HTs start to regenerate energy after the finish warping in, therefore in the 110 seconds it takes to research Amulet or Storm.
1st HT will have ~85 seconds to regenerate energy, having 47 regenerated energy.
2nd HT will have ~66 seconds to regenerate energy, having 37 regenerated energy.
3rd HT will have ~46 seconds to regenerate energy, having 25 regenerated energy.
4th HT will have ~26 seconds to regenerate energy, having 14 regenerated energy.
5th HT will have ~6 seconds to regenerate energy, having 3 regenerated energy.

Therefore, the first 3 HTs, would have the the energy necessary to storm, off of two fully saturated bases.


That isn't very good.

Edit2: Added a bit more to consider, in terms of HT's Build Time.


Do you guys still think this is a huge nerf? Or is it exaggerated?
thezergk
Profile Joined October 2009
United States492 Posts
February 26 2011 06:44 GMT
#2
Great job with the math! This is very useful. I'm a Protoss and IMO warp in storm was too powerful so I'm willing to accept the nerf. High Templar will still be useful, just a lot more situational
Nada vs. TLO Results: "Nada 1 TLO 1 Bnet 2 KESPA 1"
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10380 Posts
February 26 2011 06:46 GMT
#3
Um I think another "thought", one that I can't think of a reason against implementing it, is increasing the HT warp in time (the warp in time, not the cooldown time for building HTs). This would make warp-in storms still powerful but not nearly as quick or convenient.
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
eNtitY~
Profile Joined January 2007
United States1293 Posts
February 26 2011 06:46 GMT
#4
I think this nerf is at a bad time because toss's are just now starting to mostly try this sort of tech tree instead of Collosi. I think this will deter that type of play a lot.

HT's without ANY type of upgrade don't seem as worth it to me and I think it would make a straight templar tech in PvT or PvZ unreasonable.

I'm not a fan at all of this.
http://www.starcraftdream.com
valheru
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia966 Posts
February 26 2011 06:49 GMT
#5
It just negates warp in storm, which is useful for terran drops and EMPs. It stops Toss from warping in HT 300 food push style but Toss doesn't 300 food push anyway.

The timing window for the non-extra energy HT to get it's second storm in the bank is so absurdly small as to be irrelavent. So in the army it will make no difference.

It is a large anti-harass nerf itself but it leave other viable options such as cannons or warp-in stalker/zealot.
It is a tiny army nerf though.
I reject your reality and substitute my own
Basileus
Profile Joined October 2010
United States103 Posts
February 26 2011 06:50 GMT
#6
I feel it's going to be incredibly difficult to deal with a good two base timing attack by terran if you choose the storm before colossus route without the amulet. Furthermore, its also going to be harder to deal with terran drops, since terran units are far more efficient in smaller numbers. Also you have to consider army trades bewteen terran and protoss. If the exchange is even and the majority of the armies are gone, the terran can remacro and attack again, while the protoss is going to have to wait for storm to charge up.

While instant storms on mineral lines might have been unfair, taking away amulet isn't the answer, perhaps just lowering the amount on how much energy the upgrade gives would be reasonable.
Techno
Profile Joined June 2010
1900 Posts
February 26 2011 06:51 GMT
#7
Is it worthless to reinforce with HT now?

My friends, let us see Archons.
Hell, its awesome to LOSE to nukes!
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 06:55:01
February 26 2011 06:54 GMT
#8
On February 26 2011 15:50 Basileus wrote:
I feel it's going to be incredibly difficult to deal with a good two base timing attack by terran if you choose the storm before colossus route without the amulet. Furthermore, its also going to be harder to deal with terran drops, since terran units are far more efficient in smaller numbers. Also you have to consider army trades bewteen terran and protoss. If the exchange is even and the majority of the armies are gone, the terran can remacro and attack again, while the protoss is going to have to wait for storm to charge up.

While instant storms on mineral lines might have been unfair, taking away amulet isn't the answer, perhaps just lowering the amount on how much energy the upgrade gives would be reasonable.


it's pretty much impossible to deal with a 2 base ghost bio attack rushing HT without colossi anyways, it's not like removing amulet will make a difference there.
t3tsubo
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada682 Posts
February 26 2011 06:56 GMT
#9
Army trades become more beneficial, as a toss cannot go on the offensive immediately after an army trade with a proxy pylon - which used to be an option if they chose the templar/gateway route instead of robo route. This is also an indirect buff to EMP, when EMP was strong enough as it was. I don;t like this change, but I see how it might be a good change to test out on the PTR.
bokeevboke
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Singapore1674 Posts
February 26 2011 06:58 GMT
#10
give it a time. Protoss players should learn to think strategically and prepare beforehand. Not reacting all the time.
Its grack
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
February 26 2011 06:58 GMT
#11
I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).

With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Dommk
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia4865 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 07:00:30
February 26 2011 06:59 GMT
#12
I think Archons should get somewhat of a buff, or maybe EMP toned down.

What was actually strong about Storm was the fact you could warp in Templar after Templar and Storm over and over again, but now you are just going to have your first batch of Templars and no reinforcement Storms, a single Storm in it self isn't overpowered by the slightest it just sucks when you can chain your first Storms then another 6-7 Storms after those first 3/4 Storms, but now if you get EMP'd you lose your first 3/4 Storms and have 0 reinforcing Storms for another 30seconds...there is a BIG difference from being able to warp in 6/7 more Tempalr and storm and only being able to get 1/2 Storms off, this just is just too big

I'm with Jinro, just add the BW style upgrade, but don't force Protoss to have to wait 30seconds for any reinforcing Storms
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
February 26 2011 07:04 GMT
#13
*sigh*
I better start practicing my Terran now...
They better test these changes HEAVILY.

Though I must say, the new charge upgrade really makes it so that you don't need Templar....
We'll see.
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
avilo
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States4100 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 07:06:19
February 26 2011 07:05 GMT
#14
Completely agree with the amulet change. Yes, it's coming from a Terran. But it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many games where protoss can turtle infinitely in the late game versus bio+viking simply because wherever they place a pylon, there is a storm.

This would be like me being able to warp-in ghosts and nukes for defense...great change imo, I'm sure other Terrans are happy about this.

Templar will still be 1 million times effective vs bio, it's just now protoss has to plan just like the rest of us...instead of, "oh, I can warp in and stop you from attacking in 4 places at once."

and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins.

As for the maps though...yeah...
Sup
gdalam
Profile Joined December 2010
104 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-26 07:09:06
February 26 2011 07:06 GMT
#15
The fact is that the only efficient ways to deal with MM are HTs and Colossi. Colossi are too expensive to just have sitting around your bases to deal with any drops, so HTs are our only real solution to constant Terran harassment. While keeping HTs spread around suspected drop points is doable, it's a bit extreme.

One issue that I haven't seen addressed yet is the movement speed of HTs. The reason that the Amulet is so essential to the Protoss army is that HTs are absurdly slow. We need to be able to warp in our HTs because it just takes too long to run them there.

And on another note, while instant warp ins to storm a mineral line may be a bit much, it really is the only form of Protoss harassment (barring DTs which is countered by a mere turret). It's as difficult for Protoss to keep an eye out for incoming Terran harassment as it is for Terran to watch for HTs at their mineral lines (it's just more forgiving). Why should Terran be immune to keeping an eye out on the minimap?

Of course, none of this addresses the fact that now only a handful of EMPs will completely negate the entire Templar tech tree, as it'll take minutes to be able to Storm after you're EMP'd.
Ponyo
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1231 Posts
February 26 2011 07:06 GMT
#16
Now its like having a ghost. Really doesn't seem as powerful lol. Think they should up its energy regen rate. But yea was a needed update, warping in storms was too powerful.
ponyo.848
bubblegumbo
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Taiwan1296 Posts
February 26 2011 07:09 GMT
#17
15 to 20 seconds before a new HT can storm wouldn't be too bad. Also protoss players should mix HT and collosi more for late game and this may encourage that.
"I honestly think that whoever invented toilet paper is a genius. For man to survive, they need toilet paper!"- Nal_rA
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
February 26 2011 07:11 GMT
#18
At least they made the tech path slightly more attractive by buffing Zealot Charge. :-/ But yeah, I agree with Jinro above that they should have at least tried implementing the BW amulet and seeing how that changed things.
Piski
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Finland3461 Posts
February 26 2011 07:16 GMT
#19
On February 26 2011 16:09 bubblegumbo wrote:
15 to 20 seconds before a new HT can storm wouldn't be too bad. Also protoss players should mix HT and collosi more for late game and this may encourage that.


You're talking like it's as easy to get Colossus + HT. 15-20s is a lot in game like SC2. That just means you have to warp them in mass and do one big doom push, because when those ht dies your army is dead (in example you get emp'd)

At least when I play Terran I never really felt Storm was too strong. Just emp most of the ht's so he doesn't havea a lot of storms, then stim run from storms until he is out and proceed to kill him.
iruehl
Profile Joined September 2010
United States31 Posts
February 26 2011 07:23 GMT
#20
i think this change is bad for protoss, in late game toss need something to prevent the dropship harass.
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