EPTFeedback is a great great spell, but I feel like a ghost who is saving up energy for an emp but can still cloak, snipe, or shoot his rifle in the meantime is more useful in most situations than a templar that is saving up for a storm.
A Bit of Simple Khaydarin Amulet Math - Page 3
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numberThirtyOne
United States294 Posts
Feedback is a great great spell, but I feel like a ghost who is saving up energy for an emp but can still cloak, snipe, or shoot his rifle in the meantime is more useful in most situations than a templar that is saving up for a storm. | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
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Adebisi
Canada1637 Posts
On February 26 2011 17:07 Whiplash wrote: I'm sorry but tasteless and artosis are wrong if they think that not getting khaydarin amulet is not useful late game. Fast reflexes and being able to cast storm as soon as a templar is out is incredibly useful and essential to a templar based army late game. Thats not even what they said, people taking things out of context, Artosis basically said that he stopped getting amulet on his practice games because of/in preparation for the impending change... | ||
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thesauceishot
Canada333 Posts
This one is going to hurt a lot more now, though. It's gonna be a lot harder to defend from drops since we can't just warp in a HT and a couple chargelots to deal with it. | ||
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KotaOnCue
United States180 Posts
On February 26 2011 17:00 Traveler wrote: It won't be really, the charge against roaches usually landed because roaches weren't that fast, this is going to change it more versus stimmed terran bio as marauders would be able to kite zealots despite charge, and stimmed marines could run and kill them before they reaches the marines... roaches don't do enough dps to kill zealots, and aren't fast enough to outrun them. Anyways, I think the amulet upgrade should have been retained, but changed to 70 or 65 energy, eliminating the defensive storming against late game drops/zergling play, while retaining the reinforcing ability against terran after EMPs... This way it actually forces the protoss to commit to defending bases, rather than throwing up a few cannons per base, and then relying on those + insta-storm to kill whatever is attacking it (mutalisks/zerglings/drops). All the other races have to use their main army somewhat to defend those big harasses, so why should protoss receive that huge late game advantage of being able to defend anywhere at anytime? The problem with that is that the other races have a more mobile or cost effective force for dealing with drops. Where as a group of 10 zerglings following a medivac around with a queen shooting at it from afar can effectively kill a drop, a group of 5 zealots (more expensive) can not deter a drop in the slightest with proper kiting. Cannons don't have the range to deal with drops like a missile turret does nor do protoss gateway units stack up against the MM that come in drops. Plus, if you really fear drops as a Terran, build a Sensor Tower. The only real way you could deter a drop was either prevent it with some phoenix micro (hard to be everywhere at once) or warp in an HT to storm the area. Plus, with how strong a pure marauder stim drop is in how it can take out buildings before you even have a chance to see it coming, its gonna be hard to deter them from taking out multiple buildings and then laughing at your meager gateway unit warp in answer to it. If gateway units weren't so awful against MM, this wouldn't be a factor but they are completely outclassed. | ||
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Mr. Wiggles
Canada5894 Posts
Think of it this way. For the gas cost of the amulet upgrade, Protoss can only make 1 HT extra. So while people can say to get HTs earlier, this is actually going to change builds, unit compositions, and expansion timings, due to balancing around the gas cost for earlier and/or more HT. In terms of storms, you will have to make Templar much in advance to be effective. While this is not bad per se, it does make the ghost much more devastating. If the protoss is hit by EMPs in such a way that they lose all their HT energy, then that opens up a 44.4 second timing window for Terran to attack or drop without fear of storms. This also makes the decision to feedback much harder. To replenish the energy spent from a feedback, it will take 88.9 seconds. This means that you can feedback off newly made HTs, but if you feedback with older HTs, then they either cannot storm, or they must have been alive for 133.3 seconds already, to be able to afford a feedback and then a storm. What I think this will result in, is an overproduction of HTs, so that you can afford to feedback ghosts, but still have storm on other HTs. This also greatly reduces the efficiency of HTs stopping drops, as they must already be around, in order to be in position and have a storm ready. I feel this also opens too many windows for the opponent to attack after any engagement with storms. If the opponent realizes that the protoss has spent all Templar energy, then he knows that he has a 44.4 second window to attack without there being any storms. This seems huge for drops and timing pushes, as it takes out any uncertainty in the threat of storms. Personally, I don't think this is a good decision, and that some compromise should be made, both for these reasons, and others. | ||
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Cintiq
Australia28 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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Traveler
United States451 Posts
On February 26 2011 17:33 KotaOnCue wrote: The problem with that is that the other races have a more mobile or cost effective force for dealing with drops. Where as a group of 10 zerglings following a medivac around with a queen shooting at it from afar can effectively kill a drop, a group of 5 zealots (more expensive) can not deter a drop in the slightest with proper kiting. Cannons don't have the range to deal with drops like a missile turret does nor do protoss gateway units stack up against the MM that come in drops. Plus, if you really fear drops as a Terran, build a Sensor Tower. The only real way you could deter a drop was either prevent it with some phoenix micro (hard to be everywhere at once) or warp in an HT to storm the area. Plus, with how strong a pure marauder stim drop is in how it can take out buildings before you even have a chance to see it coming, its gonna be hard to deter them from taking out multiple buildings and then laughing at your meager gateway unit warp in answer to it. If gateway units weren't so awful against MM, this wouldn't be a factor but they are completely outclassed. The point here is that other races have to divert army in order to deal with the drops, which takes time, allowing the drop to do damage. Protoss can have 2 cannons at each base, and then warp in stalkers/templar and deal with any drop near instantly... without having to commit units beforehand to get that result. Also, to the guy saying that the amulet somehow effects future storms, it doesn't. It is a 1 time 25 energy boost to each templar, meaning the first storm is the only thing that benefits... | ||
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lu_cid
United States428 Posts
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
If the protoss is hit by EMPs in such a way that they lose all their HT energy, then that opens up a 44.4 second timing window for Terran to attack or drop without fear of storms. ^this HT's were much less common than colo in PvT, and leaves protoss vulnerable if they skip robo tech. As a protoss who religiously 1 gate fe's and rushes to HT's whenever feasible, I do feel they were slightly OP, with the added bonus of being able to insta-storm off warp-in's. That being said, the amulet nerf is a little over-doing it, as now EMP is much stronger indirectly than it was before. and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways. No it's not. Phoenix/Colossus is a very specific composition to deal with bio+viking support, and sort of relies on the terran producing vikings but not out-producing your phoenix's. HT's are much more versatile and powerful against any terran build (except mass blue flame?), while all conveniently laying out a protoss's tech tree and upgrades. edit: I just remembered the increased stim time is an EVER so slight buff to ht's as it's just more time for a toss trying to play mass gateway fe style. | ||
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Reason.SC2
Canada1047 Posts
 BC's possibly getting speed upgrade in anticipation to larger maps.... but what about brood lords and carriers? | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
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Leopoldshark
United States176 Posts
Each of the races' caster gets this sort of buff. For fairness sake, lets evaluate the other two races' caster, the ghost, raven, and infestor. The Ghost takes the least money to tech to and comes out fastest. Infestors and Ravens can also come out quickly. Compared to that, High Templar take the longest to be effective. They require a council, templar archives (which is 200 gas), and they require their core ability to be researched. Storm is far more powerful than the other unit's core abilities (EMP and Fungal are quite powerful though). But it requires more resources and time to get out. Getting Templar out in the later stages of the game will make this less costly, but in order to deal with masses of units effectively Protoss will have to go Colossus. I don't think it is good game design when Protoss are pigeon-holed into going Colossus or dying. Templar should be a viable tech tree to branch into in the early game (especially if you start out Twilight Council, that way you can add in Blink or Charge). I do like your suggestion and Jinro's idea. Insta storms may be too much late game. High Templar need something extra just like the other casters do. Especially in a crisis situation, you don't want to spend 150 gas on a fragile unit that can only use the situational feedback. But I'm not tip top-of-the-line ultra gosu diamond or masters, so I may have no idea what I'm talking about. Off topic, archons could use some love too. It would be cool if the Storm upgrade made the Archon splash damage slightly bigger or something. | ||
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Pestilence
Belgium41 Posts
Now tosses need to plan when to warp in a HT to have storm in time. In that fashion, terrans can maybe force some HT or ..... aaah just kidding :p Amulet of kings upgrade removal is great 4 the overall experience of terran user and the steamroll of tosses :D | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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rd
United States2586 Posts
It would be cool if the Storm upgrade added a small splash range upgrade to the Archon or something. They already have that. Archons are very powerful but underused, imo. | ||
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