*Every unit in Starcraft 2 regenerates energy at 0.5625 energy per second(Except for Point Defense Drone, which regenerates energy at 1.0 energy per second)
*A High Templar warps in with 50 starting energy. And has a maximum pool of 200 energy.
*It takes a High Templar 50 energy to cast Feedback, 75 energy to cast Psionic Storm.
*A High Templar can cast storm the moment it warps in with the Amulet upgrade.
*A High Templar has a 55s Build Time, 36.6667s Chrono Boosted with two Chrono Boosts in a Gateway. It has a 50s Build Time, 33.3333s Chrono Boosted with two Chrono Boosts and a 5s warp in time in a Warpgate.
^Therefore, it takes a High Templar, starting at 50 energy, 44.4444s to regenerate 25 energy to have enough energy for its first storm. It takes 177.7778s to regenerate 100 energy to have enough energy to cast its first two storms at the same time. It takes 133.3333s to regenerate 75 energy to have enough energy to cast a single storm from a "spent" high templar.
^A High Templar with Amulet upgrade, starting at 75 energy, does not need to wait to cast its first storm. It takes 133.3333s to regenerate 75 energy to have enough energy to cast its first two storms at the same time. It takes 133.3333s to regenerate 75 energy to have enough energy to cast a single storm from a "spent" high templar.
^At maximum energy (Which takes 266.6667s starting at 50 energy, 222.2222s starting at 75 energy), a High Templar can cast two storms and have 50 energy left over. It can not cast a third storm. It would have to wait another 44.4444s to regenerate 25 energy.
^In the time it takes either Amulet or Storm to research, 110s, a HT would have regenerated 61 energy (111 total), allowing for its first storm and 36 energy left over.
^In the time it takes to both Amulet and Storm to research, 220s, a HT would have regenerated 123 energy (173 total), allowing for its first two storms at the same time and 23 energy left over.
^In the time it takes to warp in a High Templar, 50s Build Time + 5s warp in, a previously warped High Templar would have regenerated 30 energy (80 total), allowing for its first storm and 5 energy left over.
^In the time it takes to warp in a Chrono Boosted High Templar, 33.3333s Build Time + 5s warp in, a previously warped High Templar would have regenerated 21 energy (71 total), it must wait 7.1111s to regenerate 4 energy needed for its first storm.
^With the Amulet upgrade, we essentially save 44.4444s to cast the first storm from a "fresh" High Templar. The Amulet upgrade is essentially useless for every storm after the first, unless two storms are cast at the same time. And in the time it takes to research, we would already have energy for storm.
†Please note, all time is in Starcraft 2 Game Time, which is 1.38 times faster than real time on the "faster" setting. Meaning the 44.4444 seconds in Starcraft 2 is actually 32.2222 in real time.
Considering that the Amulet saved 44.4444 seconds per High Templar, and that was all it did and it doesn't help for subsequent storms. Blizzard's decision can be seen as somewhat reasonable. And considering you are waiting 110 seconds for the Amulet Research time and 55 seconds to warp in a HT anyway. Timings to have HTs in your army with storm ready should still be okay.
But the removal of the upgrade means the removal of "warp-in storms", which is a huge hit to the usefulness of High Templar. High Templars can no longer defend against drops or become warp-in reinforcements mid battle. Saving two storms per HT timing is also affected. This changes the way High Templars are used and may result in a shift of playstyles.
High Templars will now have to wait to cast its first storm, "warp-in storms" are gone, but storm is still just as powerful when used in a typical engagement, devastating bio balls will feel no different. If anything at all, protoss users will just need to be more careful when aiming storms and try not spamming them as much.
Concerns about protoss becoming more Colossus orientated late game do come to mind, but maybe just simply out of misinformation about the extent of the nerf.
More thoughts: *If High Templars are getting a nerf, Archons should at least get a buff?
*Why not just reduce the damage of storm? Or increase the duration of it, but keeping the damage output the same?
*HT's Feedback may be pretty cool if BCs really do catch on with their buff.
I actually did all the maths for a suggestion I posted over at PTR forums to be ignored by Blizzard... A lot of the info is a direct copy paste from there, so unless you want to read my suggestion it won't be necessary. But it's basically to increase energy regen rate. [Link]
High Templars cost 50 Minerals, 150 Gas and have a 55 second build time.
Two fully saturated bases with 8 Patches and 2 Geysers per base will harvest ~27.2 Minerals and ~7.6 Gas per second.
In 110 seconds, the time it takes to research either Amulet or Storm, we would harvest 836 Gas.
We are not using any Gas on anything else other than HTs and assume we start with 0 Gas...
Then, we can make 5 HTs in that time. 1st HT at ~20 seconds + 5 seconds warp in time. 2nd HT at ~39 seconds + 5 seconds warp in time. 3rd HT at ~59 seconds + 5 seconds warp in time. 4th HT at ~79 seconds + 5 seconds warp in time. 5th HT at ~99 seconds + 5 seconds warp in time.
The HTs start to regenerate energy after the finish warping in, therefore in the 110 seconds it takes to research Amulet or Storm. 1st HT will have ~85 seconds to regenerate energy, having 47 regenerated energy. 2nd HT will have ~66 seconds to regenerate energy, having 37 regenerated energy. 3rd HT will have ~46 seconds to regenerate energy, having 25 regenerated energy. 4th HT will have ~26 seconds to regenerate energy, having 14 regenerated energy. 5th HT will have ~6 seconds to regenerate energy, having 3 regenerated energy.
Therefore, the first 3 HTs, would have the the energy necessary to storm, off of two fully saturated bases.
That isn't very good.
Edit2: Added a bit more to consider, in terms of HT's Build Time.
Do you guys still think this is a huge nerf? Or is it exaggerated?
Great job with the math! This is very useful. I'm a Protoss and IMO warp in storm was too powerful so I'm willing to accept the nerf. High Templar will still be useful, just a lot more situational
Um I think another "thought", one that I can't think of a reason against implementing it, is increasing the HT warp in time (the warp in time, not the cooldown time for building HTs). This would make warp-in storms still powerful but not nearly as quick or convenient.
I think this nerf is at a bad time because toss's are just now starting to mostly try this sort of tech tree instead of Collosi. I think this will deter that type of play a lot.
HT's without ANY type of upgrade don't seem as worth it to me and I think it would make a straight templar tech in PvT or PvZ unreasonable.
It just negates warp in storm, which is useful for terran drops and EMPs. It stops Toss from warping in HT 300 food push style but Toss doesn't 300 food push anyway.
The timing window for the non-extra energy HT to get it's second storm in the bank is so absurdly small as to be irrelavent. So in the army it will make no difference.
It is a large anti-harass nerf itself but it leave other viable options such as cannons or warp-in stalker/zealot. It is a tiny army nerf though.
I feel it's going to be incredibly difficult to deal with a good two base timing attack by terran if you choose the storm before colossus route without the amulet. Furthermore, its also going to be harder to deal with terran drops, since terran units are far more efficient in smaller numbers. Also you have to consider army trades bewteen terran and protoss. If the exchange is even and the majority of the armies are gone, the terran can remacro and attack again, while the protoss is going to have to wait for storm to charge up.
While instant storms on mineral lines might have been unfair, taking away amulet isn't the answer, perhaps just lowering the amount on how much energy the upgrade gives would be reasonable.
On February 26 2011 15:50 Basileus wrote: I feel it's going to be incredibly difficult to deal with a good two base timing attack by terran if you choose the storm before colossus route without the amulet. Furthermore, its also going to be harder to deal with terran drops, since terran units are far more efficient in smaller numbers. Also you have to consider army trades bewteen terran and protoss. If the exchange is even and the majority of the armies are gone, the terran can remacro and attack again, while the protoss is going to have to wait for storm to charge up.
While instant storms on mineral lines might have been unfair, taking away amulet isn't the answer, perhaps just lowering the amount on how much energy the upgrade gives would be reasonable.
it's pretty much impossible to deal with a 2 base ghost bio attack rushing HT without colossi anyways, it's not like removing amulet will make a difference there.
Army trades become more beneficial, as a toss cannot go on the offensive immediately after an army trade with a proxy pylon - which used to be an option if they chose the templar/gateway route instead of robo route. This is also an indirect buff to EMP, when EMP was strong enough as it was. I don;t like this change, but I see how it might be a good change to test out on the PTR.
I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
I think Archons should get somewhat of a buff, or maybe EMP toned down.
What was actually strong about Storm was the fact you could warp in Templar after Templar and Storm over and over again, but now you are just going to have your first batch of Templars and no reinforcement Storms, a single Storm in it self isn't overpowered by the slightest it just sucks when you can chain your first Storms then another 6-7 Storms after those first 3/4 Storms, but now if you get EMP'd you lose your first 3/4 Storms and have 0 reinforcing Storms for another 30seconds...there is a BIG difference from being able to warp in 6/7 more Tempalr and storm and only being able to get 1/2 Storms off, this just is just too big
I'm with Jinro, just add the BW style upgrade, but don't force Protoss to have to wait 30seconds for any reinforcing Storms
Completely agree with the amulet change. Yes, it's coming from a Terran. But it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many games where protoss can turtle infinitely in the late game versus bio+viking simply because wherever they place a pylon, there is a storm.
This would be like me being able to warp-in ghosts and nukes for defense...great change imo, I'm sure other Terrans are happy about this.
Templar will still be 1 million times effective vs bio, it's just now protoss has to plan just like the rest of us...instead of, "oh, I can warp in and stop you from attacking in 4 places at once."
and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins.
The fact is that the only efficient ways to deal with MM are HTs and Colossi. Colossi are too expensive to just have sitting around your bases to deal with any drops, so HTs are our only real solution to constant Terran harassment. While keeping HTs spread around suspected drop points is doable, it's a bit extreme.
One issue that I haven't seen addressed yet is the movement speed of HTs. The reason that the Amulet is so essential to the Protoss army is that HTs are absurdly slow. We need to be able to warp in our HTs because it just takes too long to run them there.
And on another note, while instant warp ins to storm a mineral line may be a bit much, it really is the only form of Protoss harassment (barring DTs which is countered by a mere turret). It's as difficult for Protoss to keep an eye out for incoming Terran harassment as it is for Terran to watch for HTs at their mineral lines (it's just more forgiving). Why should Terran be immune to keeping an eye out on the minimap?
Of course, none of this addresses the fact that now only a handful of EMPs will completely negate the entire Templar tech tree, as it'll take minutes to be able to Storm after you're EMP'd.
Now its like having a ghost. Really doesn't seem as powerful lol. Think they should up its energy regen rate. But yea was a needed update, warping in storms was too powerful.
15 to 20 seconds before a new HT can storm wouldn't be too bad. Also protoss players should mix HT and collosi more for late game and this may encourage that.
At least they made the tech path slightly more attractive by buffing Zealot Charge. :-/ But yeah, I agree with Jinro above that they should have at least tried implementing the BW amulet and seeing how that changed things.
On February 26 2011 16:09 bubblegumbo wrote: 15 to 20 seconds before a new HT can storm wouldn't be too bad. Also protoss players should mix HT and collosi more for late game and this may encourage that.
You're talking like it's as easy to get Colossus + HT. 15-20s is a lot in game like SC2. That just means you have to warp them in mass and do one big doom push, because when those ht dies your army is dead (in example you get emp'd)
At least when I play Terran I never really felt Storm was too strong. Just emp most of the ht's so he doesn't havea a lot of storms, then stim run from storms until he is out and proceed to kill him.
If you can spot a drop coming, you can still warp in an HT and use feedback on the medivac before it gets to your base, and from there it should only take a stalker or two. Realistically, if you don't spot a drop, it's completely reasonable to say that it should be able to deal at least some damage to you.
I agree with Jinro, in that there should be a mid-way energy upgrade. Something that allows for Protoss players not to warp in more instant-storms whenever they need, but to allow them to properly predict the number of storms they'll need for a battle or so. In 30 seconds of game time, a unit can recover 16.875 energy units. If 30 seconds seems like a reasonable time to have to wait for storm, (which it does sounds like, to me) then an upgrade that boosts HT's to 58 energy (perhaps 60, to make it even) wouldn't be out of the question as long as it was cheaper and faster to research (if not a unique innate energy count, even).
The problem I have with this change is that I'm actually conflicted about it.
I do think toss late game as it currently is, most likely is slightly OP... However I don't think that's routed in HT, and more colo/VR PvZ and Colo/HT PvT.
Many top players have actually stopped getting amulet all together and instead just rely on faster reaction times, drop scouting and/or cannons.. as well as DT warp-ins.
So I really don't even think this is going to hurt top protoss too much. I would tho like to see max energy tech put in its place tho.
What I feel is the real issue is the Collosus, which has an effect on the perceived "imbalance" in each match-up (and actually is a big part of PvP problems, so really we can say that the collosus is part of , if not the only, cause of balance issues in every match-up)
I'm not saying that the insta-storm wasn't too powerful, because I do think that it could be a little bit too crushing, but at the same time, I feel like the linear approach to toss tech atm is only going to be hurt more by this. I think an alteration would have been better rather than a straight up nixing of the upgrade. Maybe make the upgrade more expensive or a longer research? I dunno, it just seems like templar are really going to fall off the map for a bit again until people get a little more creative/comfortable with em.
On February 26 2011 16:44 B00ts wrote: Many top players have actually stopped getting amulet all together and instead just rely on faster reaction times, drop scouting and/or cannons.. as well as DT warp-ins.
Can you name some? I'm just highly skeptical of this, amulet is ridiculously good for warp prism harassment play, using amulet for defending drops is only one part of what makes amulet so good (and apparently overpowered to the point that blizzard sees they should remove it from the game). From basically every game I've observed of any top player, not getting the amulet upgrade if you're going for a decent amount of HTs, is seen as pretty similar to not getting thermal lance while going Collosus.
I really like the idea Jinro gave of 63 energy upgrade.
On February 26 2011 16:44 B00ts wrote: Many top players have actually stopped getting amulet all together and instead just rely on faster reaction times, drop scouting and/or cannons.. as well as DT warp-ins.
Can you name some? I'm just highly skeptical of this, amulet is ridiculously good for warp prism harassment play, using amulet for defending drops is only one part of what makes amulet so good (and apparently overpowered to the point that blizzard sees they should remove it from the game). From basically every game I've observed of any top player, not getting the amulet upgrade if you're going for a decent amount of HTs, is seen as pretty similar to not getting thermal lance while going Collosus.
I really like the idea Jinro gave of 63 energy upgrade.
I literally just heard artosis in the GSL games just now say that he's stopped getting it when he plays toss... tasteless agreed.. Then he mentioned something about it really not being a big deal the way the match up plays out now. I'm like mid-high diamond so I tend to differ to people like that when it comes to those type of statements rather than my limited judgement. But I have noticed DT's get used a lot more as well.
You also cant really compare the lance upgrade to amulet, as teh amulet helps with drops yes, but in terms of having them in your main ball or for pushes... its 44 game time seconds (32 real seconds)... not the bigest deal. Lance effects Collosus at all times, especially with FF support. You just can't compare the upgrades.
On February 26 2011 16:50 stickyickynugz wrote: anyone think about how zealots vs roach will be affectred now?
It won't be really, the charge against roaches usually landed because roaches weren't that fast, this is going to change it more versus stimmed terran bio as marauders would be able to kite zealots despite charge, and stimmed marines could run and kill them before they reaches the marines... roaches don't do enough dps to kill zealots, and aren't fast enough to outrun them.
Anyways, I think the amulet upgrade should have been retained, but changed to 70 or 65 energy, eliminating the defensive storming against late game drops/zergling play, while retaining the reinforcing ability against terran after EMPs...
This way it actually forces the protoss to commit to defending bases, rather than throwing up a few cannons per base, and then relying on those + insta-storm to kill whatever is attacking it (mutalisks/zerglings/drops). All the other races have to use their main army somewhat to defend those big harasses, so why should protoss receive that huge late game advantage of being able to defend anywhere at anytime?
The Amulet upgrade removal really does seem to be too much. I think they should have at most tweaked the upgrade instead of outright removing it. The change seems rash and unwise.
However, I'm sure Blizzard will consider reverting their decision if the community has a strong enough feedback (lol) against their decision.
It's disappointing to see Blizzard removing so many Protoss upgrades, especially since the Templar Archives and Fleet Beacon have turned from a cornucopia of upgrades in BW to having only a paltry set of upgrades in SC2.
On the other hand, we might be seeing more BW-esque, traditional storm drops instead of templar warp-ins. Storm drops are so powerful that I expect players to still find ways of working them into their plays, even with the upgrade removed.
I'm sorry but tasteless and artosis are wrong if they think that not getting khaydarin amulet is not useful late game. Fast reflexes and being able to cast storm as soon as a templar is out is incredibly useful and essential to a templar based army late game.
On February 26 2011 17:07 Whiplash wrote: I'm sorry but tasteless and artosis are wrong if they think that not getting khaydarin amulet is not useful late game. Fast reflexes and being able to cast storm as soon as a templar is out is incredibly useful and essential to a templar based army late game.
I'm sure they were talking more about mid game and if templar are teh first tech route.. obviously once your upgrades are nearing max... you're on 3-5 bases and have colo's out or maybe even air.. you're obviously going to want it.
On February 26 2011 17:07 Whiplash wrote: I'm sorry but tasteless and artosis are wrong if they think that not getting khaydarin amulet is not useful late game. Fast reflexes and being able to cast storm as soon as a templar is out is incredibly useful and essential to a templar based army late game.
I'm sure they were talking more about mid game and if templar are teh first tech route.. obviously once your upgrades are nearing max... you're on 3-5 bases and have colo's out or maybe even air.. you're obviously going to want it.
I believe Artosis said that he has stopped getting in his practice games. What I took away from this was that he doesn't want to rely on something that he knows isn't going to be around for much longer, not that it isn't an amazing upgrade.
what will protoss do now when there's a lot of vikings present Phoenix? but thors do splash damage Can protoss leave his/her base w/o getting harrass? Yes you can leave a few stalkers but at what cost? You can still wrap in but will not be cost effective with stimmed marauders kiting Also HT will be useless unit i think, say you engage a terran army then got 1 emp into clump of HTs after accumulating enough energy for storm, GG.
Well the comment he made was in reaction to hearing that it was being removed. Not a direct quote but it was something like "probably a good idea to take it out, I've actually stopped getting it anyway"
We're beating a dead horse here tho... My original point was I feel like a change to Colosus would have been more prudent, and that I feel like this HT change might not be as big a deal as people think.
Keep in mind too.. It's just PTR, maybe it gets changed and then all this chatter was pointless...lol
Well, against bio, the new standard for toss is gonna be stalker/colossus with tons of cannons to stop drops, or phoenix hunting for drops and hope you get lucky.
I understand the need to get rid of insta-storms. However I think nerfing HTs in this way is just taking the fun out of the game. We have one viable AOE option(which we need because our tier 1 gets wrecked by any other tier 1) and that is the colossus. I don't want to be forced into a specific tech route or lose to mass tier 1.
HT's were already difficult to get to, and Robo was already overwhelming the most picked tech route. All this change is going to accomplish is to force players to use one specific tech route(which is hard countered by easily massed vikings). The time investment to actually have a useful HT is much too long.
During the first game from tonight Nestea vs someone on Shakuras, Artosis said Amulet is the most powerful upgrade in the game and probably needs to be removed. I don't know if I agree (I'm a toss player). Insta warp-in storm is pretty powerful, but at any second if you aren't careful, your templar might suddenly have zero energy from a ghost who just happens to still have his mobeus reactor to let him pop out with an emp, not to mention snipe.
Feedback is a great great spell, but I feel like a ghost who is saving up energy for an emp but can still cloak, snipe, or shoot his rifle in the meantime is more useful in most situations than a templar that is saving up for a storm.
I think it would be more sensible if the amulet upgrade buffed their energy regeneration rate. I dislike upgrades being removed from the game. It makes the game more one dimensional.
On February 26 2011 17:07 Whiplash wrote: I'm sorry but tasteless and artosis are wrong if they think that not getting khaydarin amulet is not useful late game. Fast reflexes and being able to cast storm as soon as a templar is out is incredibly useful and essential to a templar based army late game.
Thats not even what they said, people taking things out of context, Artosis basically said that he stopped getting amulet on his practice games because of/in preparation for the impending change...
Pretty rough nerf on Protoss late game again. No flux vanes, now no amulet. This one is going to hurt a lot more now, though. It's gonna be a lot harder to defend from drops since we can't just warp in a HT and a couple chargelots to deal with it.
On February 26 2011 16:50 stickyickynugz wrote: anyone think about how zealots vs roach will be affectred now?
It won't be really, the charge against roaches usually landed because roaches weren't that fast, this is going to change it more versus stimmed terran bio as marauders would be able to kite zealots despite charge, and stimmed marines could run and kill them before they reaches the marines... roaches don't do enough dps to kill zealots, and aren't fast enough to outrun them.
Anyways, I think the amulet upgrade should have been retained, but changed to 70 or 65 energy, eliminating the defensive storming against late game drops/zergling play, while retaining the reinforcing ability against terran after EMPs...
This way it actually forces the protoss to commit to defending bases, rather than throwing up a few cannons per base, and then relying on those + insta-storm to kill whatever is attacking it (mutalisks/zerglings/drops). All the other races have to use their main army somewhat to defend those big harasses, so why should protoss receive that huge late game advantage of being able to defend anywhere at anytime?
The problem with that is that the other races have a more mobile or cost effective force for dealing with drops. Where as a group of 10 zerglings following a medivac around with a queen shooting at it from afar can effectively kill a drop, a group of 5 zealots (more expensive) can not deter a drop in the slightest with proper kiting. Cannons don't have the range to deal with drops like a missile turret does nor do protoss gateway units stack up against the MM that come in drops. Plus, if you really fear drops as a Terran, build a Sensor Tower.
The only real way you could deter a drop was either prevent it with some phoenix micro (hard to be everywhere at once) or warp in an HT to storm the area. Plus, with how strong a pure marauder stim drop is in how it can take out buildings before you even have a chance to see it coming, its gonna be hard to deter them from taking out multiple buildings and then laughing at your meager gateway unit warp in answer to it. If gateway units weren't so awful against MM, this wouldn't be a factor but they are completely outclassed.
I think Protoss really needs something for Templars.
Think of it this way. For the gas cost of the amulet upgrade, Protoss can only make 1 HT extra. So while people can say to get HTs earlier, this is actually going to change builds, unit compositions, and expansion timings, due to balancing around the gas cost for earlier and/or more HT.
In terms of storms, you will have to make Templar much in advance to be effective. While this is not bad per se, it does make the ghost much more devastating. If the protoss is hit by EMPs in such a way that they lose all their HT energy, then that opens up a 44.4 second timing window for Terran to attack or drop without fear of storms.
This also makes the decision to feedback much harder. To replenish the energy spent from a feedback, it will take 88.9 seconds. This means that you can feedback off newly made HTs, but if you feedback with older HTs, then they either cannot storm, or they must have been alive for 133.3 seconds already, to be able to afford a feedback and then a storm. What I think this will result in, is an overproduction of HTs, so that you can afford to feedback ghosts, but still have storm on other HTs. This also greatly reduces the efficiency of HTs stopping drops, as they must already be around, in order to be in position and have a storm ready.
I feel this also opens too many windows for the opponent to attack after any engagement with storms. If the opponent realizes that the protoss has spent all Templar energy, then he knows that he has a 44.4 second window to attack without there being any storms. This seems huge for drops and timing pushes, as it takes out any uncertainty in the threat of storms.
Personally, I don't think this is a good decision, and that some compromise should be made, both for these reasons, and others.
I believe that this analysis is incorrect. Khaydarin Amulet actually affects the first storm AND also every storm afterwards, until the Templar stays at 200 energy for more than 44.444 seconds. That almost never happens, though.
How about making the Amulet give +20 energy. That way Templars can't Storm right after warping but they can still reinforce almost as efficiently. Removing Amulet is just overkill.
On February 26 2011 16:50 stickyickynugz wrote: anyone think about how zealots vs roach will be affectred now?
It won't be really, the charge against roaches usually landed because roaches weren't that fast, this is going to change it more versus stimmed terran bio as marauders would be able to kite zealots despite charge, and stimmed marines could run and kill them before they reaches the marines... roaches don't do enough dps to kill zealots, and aren't fast enough to outrun them.
Anyways, I think the amulet upgrade should have been retained, but changed to 70 or 65 energy, eliminating the defensive storming against late game drops/zergling play, while retaining the reinforcing ability against terran after EMPs...
This way it actually forces the protoss to commit to defending bases, rather than throwing up a few cannons per base, and then relying on those + insta-storm to kill whatever is attacking it (mutalisks/zerglings/drops). All the other races have to use their main army somewhat to defend those big harasses, so why should protoss receive that huge late game advantage of being able to defend anywhere at anytime?
The problem with that is that the other races have a more mobile or cost effective force for dealing with drops. Where as a group of 10 zerglings following a medivac around with a queen shooting at it from afar can effectively kill a drop, a group of 5 zealots (more expensive) can not deter a drop in the slightest with proper kiting. Cannons don't have the range to deal with drops like a missile turret does nor do protoss gateway units stack up against the MM that come in drops. Plus, if you really fear drops as a Terran, build a Sensor Tower.
The only real way you could deter a drop was either prevent it with some phoenix micro (hard to be everywhere at once) or warp in an HT to storm the area. Plus, with how strong a pure marauder stim drop is in how it can take out buildings before you even have a chance to see it coming, its gonna be hard to deter them from taking out multiple buildings and then laughing at your meager gateway unit warp in answer to it. If gateway units weren't so awful against MM, this wouldn't be a factor but they are completely outclassed.
The point here is that other races have to divert army in order to deal with the drops, which takes time, allowing the drop to do damage.
Protoss can have 2 cannons at each base, and then warp in stalkers/templar and deal with any drop near instantly... without having to commit units beforehand to get that result.
Also, to the guy saying that the amulet somehow effects future storms, it doesn't. It is a 1 time 25 energy boost to each templar, meaning the first storm is the only thing that benefits...
This might give other races a chance to do some damage to the far out expansions late game. You simply couldn't abuse the immobility of protoss late game, because they just needed to warp in two HTs and protoss would successfully defend. This will change late game protoss, which was way overpowered, a lot. I like this nerf.
If the protoss is hit by EMPs in such a way that they lose all their HT energy, then that opens up a 44.4 second timing window for Terran to attack or drop without fear of storms.
^this
HT's were much less common than colo in PvT, and leaves protoss vulnerable if they skip robo tech. As a protoss who religiously 1 gate fe's and rushes to HT's whenever feasible, I do feel they were slightly OP, with the added bonus of being able to insta-storm off warp-in's. That being said, the amulet nerf is a little over-doing it, as now EMP is much stronger indirectly than it was before.
and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways.
No it's not. Phoenix/Colossus is a very specific composition to deal with bio+viking support, and sort of relies on the terran producing vikings but not out-producing your phoenix's. HT's are much more versatile and powerful against any terran build (except mass blue flame?), while all conveniently laying out a protoss's tech tree and upgrades.
edit: I just remembered the increased stim time is an EVER so slight buff to ht's as it's just more time for a toss trying to play mass gateway fe style.
I don't understand these changes. It really seems like an over-reaction. The archon toilet trick has the potential to instantly end a game if performed perfectly against an opponent who isn't paying attention... but so does nuke. So does casting a few EMP's then 1a-ing. So does a few fungals and a bunch of banelings. I hope that not all of these changes will make their way to the release of patch 1.3
BC's possibly getting speed upgrade in anticipation to larger maps.... but what about brood lords and carriers?
The older version with the 62.5 / 250 pool from 50/200 would be a good enough upgrade while they wouldn't get the ability to warp in storm vs drops. They could start using shuttles again with HT's inside to block EMPs.
It's hard to argue a big wall of math and logic, but here goes.
Each of the races' caster gets this sort of buff. For fairness sake, lets evaluate the other two races' caster, the ghost, raven, and infestor. The Ghost takes the least money to tech to and comes out fastest. Infestors and Ravens can also come out quickly. Compared to that, High Templar take the longest to be effective. They require a council, templar archives (which is 200 gas), and they require their core ability to be researched.
Storm is far more powerful than the other unit's core abilities (EMP and Fungal are quite powerful though). But it requires more resources and time to get out. Getting Templar out in the later stages of the game will make this less costly, but in order to deal with masses of units effectively Protoss will have to go Colossus. I don't think it is good game design when Protoss are pigeon-holed into going Colossus or dying. Templar should be a viable tech tree to branch into in the early game (especially if you start out Twilight Council, that way you can add in Blink or Charge).
I do like your suggestion and Jinro's idea. Insta storms may be too much late game. High Templar need something extra just like the other casters do. Especially in a crisis situation, you don't want to spend 150 gas on a fragile unit that can only use the situational feedback. But I'm not tip top-of-the-line ultra gosu diamond or masters, so I may have no idea what I'm talking about.
Off topic, archons could use some love too. It would be cool if the Storm upgrade made the Archon splash damage slightly bigger or something.
I agree with the storm nerf: Each toss player (like me) that doesn't have good forwarth "planning" just warped in like 10 templars when a terran attacked their front and won their battles xD
Now tosses need to plan when to warp in a HT to have storm in time.
In that fashion, terrans can maybe force some HT or ..... aaah just kidding :p
Amulet of kings upgrade removal is great 4 the overall experience of terran user and the steamroll of tosses :D
Archons would be far more useful against Terran if they were simply given the Massive modifier. Right now Concussive Shell makes Archons completely worthless in the match-up. The Archons are lucky to even get 1 shot off before dying. :/
On February 26 2011 18:31 Dr. Nick wrote: Yeah k, but give Terran something to prevent insta-storm on mineral lines from a proxy pylon.
Oh wait, they just did.
Terran has this wonderful thing called a sensor tower. I know most players don't realise it exists, but it would detect any pylon or any warp prism is a massive radius. Kind of hard to get the ultra-slow HTs anywhere near mineral lines if the terran is paying attention. Much harder than say, blue-flame hellions.
I'm going to be amazed if this actually makes it in. If it does, you'll almost never see anything other than a colossus ball in any protoss game that goes past 7 minutes. You get some templar sniped, emp'd, etc, and you're without a power unit for another 40 seconds. One EMP basically kills the efficacy of the army composition involving templar if it takes that long to get another temp with storm. It makes me sad that blizzard even thought this was a good idea. They're just limiting the options of an already option starved race.
I've been saying it for a while, I'll say it again.
I think they should have changed it so
Psi Storm costs 150/150 from 200/200 Khadarian Amulet costs 100/100 from 150/150 Kahdarian Amulet gives +15 energy (from +25).
Would make it still a very useful upgrade, but it would eliminate the "oh, I see him right about to drop, imma warp in a unit instead of having to be prepared."
I think more important than the time it saves is the fact that it makes HT useful INSTANTLY, you never like to have to spend resources on a unit then have it sit idly until its ready for use.
On February 26 2011 18:48 FabledIntegral wrote: Would make it still a very useful upgrade, but it would eliminate the "oh, I see him right about to drop, imma warp in a unit instead of having to be prepared."
Maybe they should do something about drops been so hard to prepare for without overcommitting. MMM requires a disproportionate response of gateway units. HTs have been central for protoss defending while on multiple bases. Without them you will be massively cost-ineffective defending a small drop.
The way I look at it is that, it takes 40 or 50 seconds from the time a player decides to buy a ghost or an infestor (respectively) to the time it can be used. This is about the same as the time it takes for the HT to generate 25 mana points. So isn't warpgates already a +25 energy upgrade in this regard? Another person suggested using prisms to protect the HT, so couldn't you just warp them in and hide/move them in the prism until they are useful?
On February 26 2011 18:31 Dr. Nick wrote: Yeah k, but give Terran something to prevent insta-storm on mineral lines from a proxy pylon.
Oh wait, they just did.
Terran has this wonderful thing called a sensor tower. I know most players don't realise it exists, but it would detect any pylon or any warp prism is a massive radius. Kind of hard to get the ultra-slow HTs anywhere near mineral lines if the terran is paying attention. Much harder than say, blue-flame hellions.
On February 26 2011 18:48 FabledIntegral wrote: Would make it still a very useful upgrade, but it would eliminate the "oh, I see him right about to drop, imma warp in a unit instead of having to be prepared."
Maybe they should do something about drops been so hard to prepare for without overcommitting. MMM requires a disproportionate response of gateway units. HTs have been central for protoss defending while on multiple bases. Without them you will be massively cost-ineffective defending a small drop.
I think that this upgrade is essential to allow Protoss to deal with multi-prong attacks from any race. Considering how immobile the Protoss army is, I think it's only fair that they have this upgrade.
This doesn't sound as bad as I initially read it to be- as I was thinking about drop harass... Although, it still doesn't completely negate using HT's to deal with drop harass, as they will still warp in with enough energy for a feedback... Essentially meaning you could warp in some zealots and an HT- insta-feedback the medivac to prevent the drop from escaping (assuming the medivac has enough energy to die to feedback). So rather than just storming a drop- it costs you 50 minerals and 150 gas to remove a medivac and force the terran into saccing that bit of supply- assuming you clean it up by warping in other gateway units.
On February 26 2011 18:48 FabledIntegral wrote: Would make it still a very useful upgrade, but it would eliminate the "oh, I see him right about to drop, imma warp in a unit instead of having to be prepared."
Maybe they should do something about drops been so hard to prepare for without overcommitting. MMM requires a disproportionate response of gateway units. HTs have been central for protoss defending while on multiple bases. Without them you will be massively cost-ineffective defending a small drop.
Because, you know, it's not like P didn't utterly trash T lategame, right? HT were the reason it was so friggin' imba, and warpin storms were the reason.
On February 26 2011 18:58 FabledIntegral wrote: Because, you know, it's not like P didn't utterly trash T lategame, right? HT were the reason it was so friggin' imba, and warpin storms were the reason.
You just completely ignored the content of my post (and your first one) to go on a rant. Wierd.
On February 26 2011 18:31 Dr. Nick wrote: Yeah k, but give Terran something to prevent insta-storm on mineral lines from a proxy pylon.
Oh wait, they just did.
Terran has this wonderful thing called a sensor tower. I know most players don't realise it exists, but it would detect any pylon or any warp prism is a massive radius. Kind of hard to get the ultra-slow HTs anywhere near mineral lines if the terran is paying attention. Much harder than say, blue-flame hellions.
Yet any half-decent Protoss would abuse the fact that you have the tower by faking aggression / forcing Terran to focus on one area of the map.
On February 26 2011 19:02 Dr. Nick wrote: Yet any half-decent Protoss would abuse the fact that you have the tower by faking aggression / forcing Terran to focus on one area of the map.
To what end? Is this why terrans are not using sensor towers? *Too much* information? If protoss is posturing somewhere and you see blips elsewhere, you wouldn't just ignore them would you? I just can't fathom how protoss can turn this to their advantage. How is it better to simply have no idea whats going on than some general idea as to what volume of enemy units is in what area near your base, even if the enemies just there to show up on your minimap...
On February 26 2011 18:48 FabledIntegral wrote: Would make it still a very useful upgrade, but it would eliminate the "oh, I see him right about to drop, imma warp in a unit instead of having to be prepared."
Maybe they should do something about drops been so hard to prepare for without overcommitting. MMM requires a disproportionate response of gateway units. HTs have been central for protoss defending while on multiple bases. Without them you will be massively cost-ineffective defending a small drop.
Because, you know, it's not like P didn't utterly trash T bio lategame, right? HT were the reason it was so friggin' imba, and staying on T1 tech was the reason.
I use HTs as opposed to Cols except in PvP, so basically every game vs. T and Z. Although I usually have enough energy for storm on my HTs for battles without the amulet, when the game gets to the real late game, the amulet becomes basically necessary to remain a cost-efficient army vs. T or Z. If you spend your storms and the enemy can still push, you'll simply die if you can't warp in more to hold them off, in the late game.
Edit: I don't understand this talk about warping in an HT to take care of a drop. That doesn't seem very realistic to be quite frank. Usually it's stalkers that handle a drop, and maybe a feedback on the medivac.
If you're unprepared for a drop, and try to stop it with a storm, nothing is going to stop the terran from simply moving out of the storm, and basically take 0 damage, since he has a medivac right there healing. And since you weren't prepared, you don't have any other combat units around to finish off the injured units.
So i think, HT's are now almost completely useless. You will always see Gateway units + Colossi, which is easily countered bei MMM + Vikings. Colossi were already crap imo and now i think, with this change, Protoss is like dead.
How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Good logic from both sides. However, the change to me feels too big. I think a change is needed but this goes a little too far. Maybe they can spawn just short of storming energy so that if a terran catches you with your pants down he hurts you. Thats how it should be. At the moment HT are a get out of jail free card for greedy toss players who think it is their god given right to have 4 bases because they can just "warp in and storm" if they get threatened.
I would have liked to see them make amulet only apply to gateways instead of warpgates, therefore creating a defenders advantage for protoss, yeah their hts will take a while to build but if you make it less than the 44 seconds to generate the energy for a storm, then a protoss could have insta storms while defending their base but not reinforcing half way across the map with them.
On February 26 2011 19:30 Zacsafus wrote: I would have liked to see them make amulet only apply to gateways instead of warpgates, therefore creating a defenders advantage for protoss, yeah their hts will take a while to build but if you make it less than the 44 seconds to generate the energy for a storm, then a protoss could have insta storms while defending their base but not reinforcing half way across the map with them.
It's a little unrealistic to expect people to use gateways when their disadvantages are so monstrous.
I honestly don't understand the talk of HTs needing a nerf. HTs aren't very good when you use the proper unit composition. If you're T, just go mass thor vs. a P with HTs. He's going to HAVE to tech switch to either immortals, vrs, or carriers, or he dies. The latter being handled quite nicely by vikings, the former by 250mm cannons or marauders.
You can't just go bio and expect to win vs. HTs, that's absurd.
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Leave a ht in each base? Then move your units there, or build cannons. Its not like zerg or terran have way of instantly reacting to drops if they didnt scout them. All races suffer to drops when they are out of position, collossi have the added bonus of being able to ignore cliffs meaning you can get into your base with them alot quicker. And you still have warp in chargelots, protoss are no exactly useless against drops without hts. I really very rarely get one of my drops shut down by hts, its usually the chargelots which do the trick.
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Leave a ht in each base? Then move your units there, or build cannons. Its not like zerg or terran have way of instantly reacting to drops if they didnt scout them. All races suffer to drops when they are out of position, collossi have the added bonus of being able to ignore cliffs meaning you can get into your base with them alot quicker. And you still have warp in chargelots, protoss are no exactly useless against drops without hts. I really very rarely get one of my drops shut down by hts, its usually the chargelots which do the trick.
Although I agree with you that it's reasonable to just leave an HT in position (I actually often leave an HT in my main if I'm afraid of major muta harass), the argument could be made that the toss army is far less mobile than a T or Z army. It's quite common to see a drop held off by a Z very easily with a bunch of speedlings (which can get anywhere on the map basically instantly on creep), or by stim marine/marauder.
I also agree that HTs rarely actually hold off drops. It's usually stalkers or chargelots.
I love how Blizzard decided that the most cost efficient unit mix, the marine marauder should always be allowed to stay in the game from start to finish without ever having the need for Terran to deviate from it. Bless the souls of some Terrans who actually experimented with lategame (semi) mech-switches.
Terrans now of course agree with this change and act like for the past 7 months this was the biggest problem and it's justified to completely remove the upgrade! Since lategame the colossus and voidray alone is of no danger to Terran, by adding just the Vikings they can keep doing their 1-road play.
And now the high templar joins the mighty fine club only the two previous tech routes shared before: If you loose your tech units, everything else in your army will melt. Because you cant run away (concussive), you're slower (stim) and you cant stop him (emp).
Keeping the Protoss tradition alive -If you attack a Terran, you better be damn sure you win. Because once committed, you cannot pull out -
I'm not saying this is the end of the world. But removing insta-storm, and giving terran a 30 seconds later stim...to adress the "Early T strong, Late P strong". Somehow Protoss got slapped twice...
I don't see how HT are worthless against drops, where are you getting this information? They still have feedback available, if you are paying attention to whats going on, you can feedback a medivac before it drops it's unit.
Seriously, I think it's a bit ridiculous that to stop a drop you simply had to warp in a unit when you felt like it, now toss has to play like zerg and actually use it's army to stop the drop. OMG SO IMBA!
I mean really, any bad player in Bronze league if they can delay themselves long enough to get to the amulet it's a free win. How is that balanced? Now SC2 is based on who can survive the longest or who can hold out the longest? People were saying that if Zerg can hold out the longest they can win, yet we've been proven wrong that even a macro terran can keep up with a zerg. I think the amulet removal is a great change, but I also think that maybe now that amulet is gone, they should make storm non-researchable and allow HT to spawn with it automatically.
I also think maybe with this change, that DT shrine should be removed and allow DT and HT to be made with the templar archives like in BW.
Honestly I think the +starting energy upgrades (not just KA, all the caster upgrades) are inferior to the way energy upgrades were handled in BW (+max energy, starting energy scales with new max energy). It roughly halved the waiting time between unit spawn and spell casting along with allowing an additional spell at max energy, which rewarded forethought and good unit rotation in your macro cycles. Making all the energy upgrades like this would also be an indirect buff (IMO, I guess it's debatable) to the other races' spellcasters, as they benefit far less from being ready-to-cast than HTs, but would definitely enjoy higher max energy.
The other major issue with nerfing storm is that it indirectly "buffs" colossi. Obviously the colossi don't get stronger, but they are relatively stronger given that the other splash-y tech tree is nerfed. Avoiding any debate over whether or not colossi themselves are currently balanced, I think it'd be bad if templar tech, which is already less prevalent than colossi, gets completely overshadowed. Whether or not this will happen is presumably what the PTR is for, but assuming it does, I think a slight buff to storm would be in order, e.g. increasing damage and duration (higher total damage, same DPS), making templar tech more potent but more difficult to manage than colossi tech.
The other major issue with nerfing storm is that it indirectly "buffs" colossi. Obviously the colossi don't get stronger, but they are relatively stronger given that the other splash-y tech tree is nerfed. Avoiding any debate over whether or not colossi themselves are currently balanced, I think it'd be bad if templar tech, which is already less prevalent than colossi, gets completely overshadowed. Whether or not this will happen is presumably what the PTR is for, but assuming it does, I think a slight buff to storm would be in order, e.g. increasing damage and duration (higher total damage, same DPS), making templar tech more potent but more difficult to manage than colossi tech.
I dont understand how this is a "buff" to the colossi? They do not get relatively stronger, just because another part of your army is getting nerfed. Marauders wouldnt have gotten a "buff" if, lets say, marines got nerfed..
one of the smartest changes they came up with so far.
yes maybe P will now have problems lategame (i really doubt it) but its great for the game design overall. having mapwide storm on demand is just stupid and will always be a "problem".
it def makes it harder for P to manage HTs. but i would def say this is a good thing. having to plan ahead and using em carefully increases the skill cap for the usually rather bland pvx lategame.
ofcourse its a bit sad aswell cause it promotes collosus more which are the most boring and stupid unit in the game. but its a step in the rightdirection.
1)This would encourage two boring ways of playing in SC2 : colossus and bio play, which seems like it's not only me to find them that way. I'd much rather see storms + mech. Still this is just personal preference.
2) Protoss defense lategame is very reliant on warp in HT with ready storms, specially vs terran drops and muta harass.
3) This makes EMP stupidly strong, because now not only drains energy, it also "drains" all the time the player had to hold on as the HT were gathering energy for the storms to be ready. So everytime Protoss get's EMP'ed, they will have 0 storms to rely on.
In my opinion just a bad decision if it goes live. Hopefully players in PTR will show them not to.
IMO it's fine. I had always wondered why people were hyping up the amulet so much when all it really did was give an extra 25 STARTING energy and the energy regen was what mattered more (IMO). I'm a Z/R player (Used to be toss, toss might still be my most stable race) and I think that considering all the buffs that P got last patch, this isn't such a huge blow. Also, its efficiency as an upgrade is questionable anyway. I wouldn't be surprised to see the medivac starting energy +25 upgrade go either.
On February 26 2011 21:38 CptFlowers wrote: the dropships and emps will eat us alive..... i might as well switch to terran now
So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!".
As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship).
/Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps.
On February 26 2011 21:38 CptFlowers wrote: the dropships and emps will eat us alive..... i might as well switch to terran now
So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!".
As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship).
/Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps.
Don't mass tier 1 and expect it to hold up against protoss tier 3, which takes an incredible amount of time and resources to get to. For the difficulty of getting there, storm was perfectly fine.
Storm only looked OP because terrans didn't -- and some still don't -- know how to do anything else but spam MMM.
The worst part about this nerf is that it promotes more colossi play, which is the real problem. If I have to mass colossi every game, I'm just not going to bother playing because colossi are incredibly boring units and they're not fun to use anymore. Plus, with the nerf, terran can just blindly mass MMM and sprinkle in reactor'd vikings and win.
The most effective strategy I can see with the removal of amulet are one-base colossi timing pushes vs. T. lol, blizz
I personally think having to wait 45 seconds for storm is to long, but warp in storms is/was way to powerful. I think PTR will show that the nerf is to big, and they will end up with khayden in game +10-15 energy, making the wait 20-25sec instead of 45.
On February 26 2011 21:38 CptFlowers wrote: the dropships and emps will eat us alive..... i might as well switch to terran now
So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!".
As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship).
/Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps.
Yes because everything casters say is gold, and truth. They should be playing, because they know so much about the game they could win the players themselves. /s
As for the 2nd part of the post. Yes let protoss leave amounts of their army scattered around the base, so that when terrans decide reunite their troops and go for a big push, the toss's army is smaller. Not to mention the toss can't guess if the terran decides to drop with 1 medivac 2 or more.
The problem is always that a lot of terrans can't be bothered to go mech, since bio is easier to play and as effective until protoss have decent splash damage, designed precisely to counter mass tier 1 units. Then a lot start complaining because suddenly their army is being countered as it should, and they can't have free reign over the toss's base, and snipe colossus bay in 5s pop in the medivac and go away without loses, or that forge that had an upgrade about to finish. Protoss don't have the luxury of that good harass, since terran have great defenses already. One missile turret, and no more warp prisms will adventure that way, or dt's. One planetary fortress, and no melee harass. What does protoss have? HT with the amulet, all the rest except a lot of blink stalkers always in the base to kill drops before they land, suck. I seriously think a lot of you guys are too spoiled because of all the early advantage and seem to want it not only early but throughout the game.
That's another thing that might get some terrans complaining is the shift in power. Terran has always been seen as stronger early game. So suddenly, when that disappears and things get more even, it's easy to mistake that for "they got too strong". No, now you're equal, and this is how it feels to have to make an effort equal to the other player to win.
@OP: you cannot factor this kind of math into balance. The game of starcraft is far too complex for you to consider that. It is likely that collosus will be used a bit more now. But i remember in beta seige tanks did 60 damage and wernt used often. Then they got nerfed to 50 and became more popular and were even more overpowered. now they do 35 or 25 damage i cant remember which one it is. Point is saying all of those stats will not factor into weather people are going to use HTs because there is so much other stuff to factor in that decision.
On February 26 2011 21:38 CptFlowers wrote: the dropships and emps will eat us alive..... i might as well switch to terran now
So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!".
As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship).
/Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps.
Don't mass tier 1 and expect it to hold up against protoss tier 3, which takes an incredible amount of time and resources to get to. For the difficulty of getting there, storm was perfectly fine.
Storm only looked OP because terrans didn't -- and some still don't -- know how to do anything else but spam MMM.
The worst part about this nerf is that it promotes more colossi play, which is the real problem. If I have to mass colossi every game, I'm just not going to bother playing because colossi are incredibly boring units and they're not fun to use anymore. Plus, with the nerf, terran can just blindly mass MMM and sprinkle in reactor'd vikings and win.
The most effective strategy I can see with the removal of amulet are one-base colossi timing pushes vs. T. lol, blizz
I don't mass MM expecting to win a straight up fight against a Templar based army (unless I have alot of ghosts with gosu emps and vikings to counter your collusi, along with a good amount of medivacs and upgrades). I expect to be able to drop 1400 resources worth of units in your base though, and have them do SOME damage if you didn't notice the drop at all (8marauder + 2 medivac).
Collusi play always was integral. If the Terran is really dedicating himself to a bio push, I think it's fair you should produce collusi (or be like NoNy and be gosu with double forge). I don't expect to hold off a mass gateway push + alot of forcefield without bio in the midgame. You react to what your opponent does - that's SC. If I was going straight for my mech army, you could probably go straight for temps too if you wished.
Late game upgraded MMM+ghost should be decent against mass gateway + templar if you get good EMP's. Then it becomes battle of EMP, forcefield, unit positioning, feedback. That's why collusi + temps are mixed - it forces both vikings and ghosts, and overall just makes it more fun watching the players try to balance all appropriate units. Collusi micro versus vikings is good stuff anyway, trying to snipe a few before you engage.
And to be honest, what is your ideal army without collusi? Pure gateway units (which besides templar are all tier one). Why should your tier one + templars rape my tier one + ghosts and medivacs, to the point that I feel you're saying my MMMG shouldn't even be viable late game.
Just my thoughts on the matter. We'll see how it actually plays out if patch goes retail.
On February 26 2011 21:38 CptFlowers wrote: the dropships and emps will eat us alive..... i might as well switch to terran now
So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!".
As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship).
/Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps.
Yes because everything casters say is gold, and truth. They should be playing, because they know so much about the game they could win the players themselves. /s
As for the 2nd part of the post. Yes let protoss leave amounts of their army scattered around the base, so that when terrans decide reunite their troops and go for a big push, the toss's army is smaller. Not to mention the toss can't guess if the terran decides to drop with 1 medivac 2 or more.
The problem is always that a lot of terrans can't be bothered to go mech, since bio is easier to play and as effective until protoss have decent splash damage, designed precisely to counter mass tier 1 units. Then a lot start complaining because suddenly their army is being countered as it should, and they can't have free reign over the toss's base, and snipe colossus bay in 5s pop in the medivac and go away without loses, or that forge that had an upgrade about to finish. Protoss don't have the luxury of that good harass, since terran have great defenses already. One missile turret, and no more warp prisms will adventure that way, or dt's. One planetary fortress, and no melee harass. What does protoss have? HT with the amulet, all the rest except a lot of blink stalkers always in the base to kill drops before they land, suck. I seriously think a lot of you guys are too spoiled because of all the early advantage and seem to want it not only early but throughout the game.
That's another thing that might get some terrans complaining is the shift in power. Terran has always been seen as stronger early game. So suddenly, when that disappears and things get more even, it's easy to mistake that for "they got too strong". No, now you're equal, and this is how it feels to have to make an effort equal to the other player to win.
When I referenced the casters, I also felt the same way myself. And didn't you? When you play P don't you feel pretty great once Amulet finished. IMO, it was a huge shift in the game.
As for leaving parts of your army around your base, it's just leaving a few stalkers. That + feedback on medivacs + a few cannons means GG drop. I put up a few turrets late game to stop DT harass and make those mythical planetary fortress (which besides it's cost - means no OC there).
I don't get where the whole middle part of your post comes from to be honest. One missile turret doesn't stop a warp prism any more then one cannon stops all my drops...must be most gosu placed turret ever! Honestly can't comment though because beside DT drops and HT drops I can't recall a Toss using warp prisms against me aggressively - BUT, as White-Ra has demosntrated, they can be used to great effect.
About sniping a collusi - sure happens sometimes if the Terran is lucky but if the Terran has a medivac full of shit over your robo bay (where do you put it? corner of your base?) where's your army? Shouldn't happen with too often. Early game (one, two base) I don't understand why people keep so much of the army in front of base anyway, instead of in base to defend drops. It's pretty easy to tell when Terran moves his whole main bio group with good scouting (obs?).
Lastly never even complained about Terran early game.
I think its good, because you need to spawn your HT in the back of your army/base and then let them regen mana until you can use them... just makes it a little bit harder because you need extra macro for them..
On February 26 2011 21:38 CptFlowers wrote: the dropships and emps will eat us alive..... i might as well switch to terran now
So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!".
As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship).
/Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps.
Don't mass tier 1 and expect it to hold up against protoss tier 3, which takes an incredible amount of time and resources to get to. For the difficulty of getting there, storm was perfectly fine.
Storm only looked OP because terrans didn't -- and some still don't -- know how to do anything else but spam MMM.
The worst part about this nerf is that it promotes more colossi play, which is the real problem. If I have to mass colossi every game, I'm just not going to bother playing because colossi are incredibly boring units and they're not fun to use anymore. Plus, with the nerf, terran can just blindly mass MMM and sprinkle in reactor'd vikings and win.
The most effective strategy I can see with the removal of amulet are one-base colossi timing pushes vs. T. lol, blizz
I don't mass MM expecting to win a straight up fight against a Templar based army (unless I have alot of ghosts with gosu emps and vikings to counter your collusi, along with a good amount of medivacs and upgrades). I expect to be able to drop 1400 resources worth of units in your base though, and have them do SOME damage if you didn't notice the drop at all (8marauder + 2 medivac).
Collusi play always was integral. If the Terran is really dedicating himself to a bio push, I think it's fair you should produce collusi (or be like NoNy and be gosu with double forge). I don't expect to hold off a mass gateway push + alot of forcefield without bio in the midgame. You react to what your opponent does - that's SC. If I was going straight for my mech army, you could probably go straight for temps too if you wished.
Late game upgraded MMM+ghost should be decent against mass gateway + templar if you get good EMP's. Then it becomes battle of EMP, forcefield, unit positioning, feedback. That's why collusi + temps are mixed - it forces both vikings and ghosts, and overall just makes it more fun watching the players try to balance all appropriate units. Collusi micro versus vikings is good stuff anyway, trying to snipe a few before you engage.
And to be honest, what is your ideal army without collusi? Pure gateway units (which besides templar are all tier one). Why should your tier one + templars rape my tier one + ghosts and medivacs, to the point that I feel you're saying my MMMG shouldn't even be viable late game.
Just my thoughts on the matter. We'll see how it actually plays out if patch goes retail.
I don't know if you realize this, but the 80 storm damage isn't guaranteed, applied immediately. If you're not braindead, you can micro out of the storms -- even carpet storms if you understand the HT spellcasting range -- and come away relatively unscathed.
The perceived OPness of HT has to do more with the stubbornness of terran players and the lazy scouting of just about everyone. Harassing workers with storm is completely negated with good scouting. But far be it for Blizz to actually reward better players, rather than the laziest.
hihihi...TLO just played a PvZ vs xlord on his stream and won with templar tech. xlord whines (jokingly) that it's too bad the amulet is not fixed yet to which TLO responds "Fail. I intentionally didn't research it this game :p".
they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right? i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really.. the templar was the only effective way to deal with it! all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
just copied and pasted my post from the PTR thread after i read this thread. i think it fits here a lot better!
On February 26 2011 22:34 .syL wrote: hihihi...TLO just played a TvP vs xlord on his stream and won with templar tech. xlord whines (jokingly) that it's too bad the amulet is not fixed yet to which TLO responds "Fail. I intentionally didn't research it this game :p".
Relevant? Maybe not. Amusing? Most certainly.
I also heard that Artosis is messing around with Templar tech without research the Amulet upgrade. Although there still is a chance that this change won't make it into the final patch, perhaps it would be interesting to experiment with not researching the Amulet upgrade even outside of the PTR.
Theorycrafting is great for getting a rough picture of the current situation, but I think we should all go out onto the PTR or even onto the normal servers and try to play with Templar tech without Amulet. I'm sure that there are still ways of working it into a viable build despite the nerf.
Nevertheless, I think there should be a compromise to compensate for the nerf.
On February 26 2011 22:35 ilikeLIONZ wrote: they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right? i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really.. the templar was the only effective way to deal with it! all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
just copied and pasted my post from the PTR thread after i read this thread. i think it fits here a lot better!
lol you never saw ghost emps totally decimating protoss armies.
On February 26 2011 22:35 ilikeLIONZ wrote: they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right? i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really.. the templar was the only effective way to deal with it! all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
just copied and pasted my post from the PTR thread after i read this thread. i think it fits here a lot better!
lol you never saw ghost emps totally decimating protoss armies.
I basically don't mind the change too much. I mean, drops are going to be way harder for toss to defend but not impossible. What bugs me though is that EMP is still a free spell and in my opinion its strength isn't much different from storm, especially given the fact that it's available so early in the game. Early Ghost pushes feel in most cases so ridiculous, so pleeeease make EMP a 200/200 or at least 150/150 research with a decent research time. Wouldn't really hurt terran too much and would definitely even out the Amulet change.
On February 26 2011 22:35 ilikeLIONZ wrote: they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right? i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really.. the templar was the only effective way to deal with it! all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
just copied and pasted my post from the PTR thread after i read this thread. i think it fits here a lot better!
lol you never saw ghost emps totally decimating protoss armies.
HTs on the other hand..
you can't be serious here, sorry..
drooL i agree, there must be something that evens it out a bit..
why arent you able to defend drops anymore? instead of warping them in you could build them and leave them behind to defend - i dont see the big problem there.
The reason they removed it is most likely the one big problem they didnt solve yet - warpgate technology, i agree that the amulet isnt too strong but because you can have your hightemplars instant everywhere, thats what makes them too powerful. You can basically reeinforce archons that do a ton splashdamage before they become archons. Also lategame PvZ you couldnt really harass anymore because even if the protoss was totally undefended at his 6th base he could just warp in a single unit and be fine.
On the other hand its stupid that blizzard trys to nerf everything untill there is only one possibility left to play a certain matchup. Well iam not really sure if the amulet would change anything in the way i play PvZ, but it probably changes PvT alot and rushing for storm probably wont be viable anymore.
On February 26 2011 22:35 ilikeLIONZ wrote: they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right? i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really.. the templar was the only effective way to deal with it! all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
just copied and pasted my post from the PTR thread after i read this thread. i think it fits here a lot better!
lol you never saw ghost emps totally decimating protoss armies.
HTs on the other hand..
you can't be serious here, sorry..
drooL i agree, there must be something that evens it out a bit..
I also consider Jinro's post interesting.
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
But we will see how it's going to pan out in the end. Let's play around with templar first and then start qqing eventually. :>
I don't mean to compare bw to sc2 but in bw you had to actually wait for the templar to build and save up energy if you saw units in the middle of the map coming to you... now we at least can warp them in and wait... albeit we wait for 50-->75 instead of 63-->75 but i think if u take into account the build time and fact that you can have it anywhere in pylon power its good...
all that assuming that storm is as necessary and useful in bw as it is here (i.e. same functional necessity)
Terran drops are the most powerful drops in the game.If your army isn't home, HTs with the amulet were the most efficient way of dealing with these drops. MMM drops can level a base very quickly, nothing in the protoss army aside from storm can deal with them cost effectively. The removal of the upgrade is bad, it would make sense if storms were actually very powerful, but they're not, Storms aren't powerful at all. With the amulet they seemed powerful because 5 HT + Warp in = 5 insta storms, but that's still 5 HTs.
In BW Storms were very powerful, this nerf makes sense only if storms do the damage to justify it, which they don't.
I have seen HT before colossus builds against MMM. And these builds aren't as effective as going colossus first. And the reason is, if you get EMPed that's 5 HTs that could have been actual attack units, or if your storms miss, then you have 5 useless units taking up food in your army. That's why colossus was and is still the stronger option. The amulet was a bit insane with warp in, but it made sense in that storms are weaker but come in numbers.
It's not our fault Terrans keep going bio all the way to late game. The nerf isn't well thought out at all.
If we're going back to the old BW HTs, that have to build up their storm energy, can we get a buff to storm damage to justify it? Otherwise, colossus first then eventually templar tech every time.
Every HT we warp in without KA makes, every Templar we warp in less useful. So the more the Templars you warp the more or you feel the hit of not having KA. I think the nerf on the PTR will be a little too strong, but a step in the right direction, especially with a change to Stim as well.
And I'd rather get Carrier HT/ than Colossus HT.^^^
Edit; Thx Jinro and any other Pro who decided to comment ^__________^
Pretty important 44 seconds when you're trying to defend from a drop or from mutalisk harras, don't you think?
Or trying to support on the battlefield. Have you ever made a brood lord and was like "Oh, ok, now I just have to wait 44 seconds for me to attack with this thing ONCE and then never use it again anymore" lol
It also took out a big mineral line harrass option we had.
On February 26 2011 23:13 KingAce wrote: Terran drops are the most powerful drops in the game.If your army isn't home, HTs with the amulet were the most efficient way of dealing with these drops. MMM drops can level a base very quickly, nothing in the protoss army aside from storm can deal with them cost effectively. The removal of the upgrade is bad, it would make sense if storms were actually very powerful, but they're not, Storms aren't powerful at all. With the amulet they seemed powerful because 5 HT + Warp in = 5 insta storms, but that's still 5 HTs.
In BW Storms were very powerful, this nerf makes sense only if storms do the damage to justify it, which they don't.
I have seen HT before colossus builds against MMM. And these builds aren't as effective as going colossus first. And the reason is, if you get EMPed that's 5 HTs that could have been actual attack units, or if your storms miss, then you have 5 useless units taking up food in your army. That's why colossus was and is still the stronger option. The amulet was a bit insane with warp in, but it made sense in that storms are weaker but come in numbers.
It's not our fault Terrans keep going bio all the way to late game. The nerf isn't well thought out at all.
If we're going back to the old BW HTs, that have to build up their storm energy, can we get a buff to storm damage to justify it? Otherwise, colossus first then eventually templar tech every time.
And archon toilet gets removed.
This. Seriously this.
If they're going to balance the HT like Brood War storms need to be worth something.
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback, you have the only defensive structure that shoots both air and ground but you still feel it's impossible.
I suggest you change the game maybe.
@op I was expecting this amulet removal in the other patches as well, it was one of the most obvious game balance issues.
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback but you still feel it's impossible.
I suggest you change the game maybe.
Troll much? Have you ever watched 16 stimmed marines and 2 dropships go through a base without cannons? He could have 8 gateways and warp in units, if his army was somewhere else he would probably still lose and lose a considerable amount of his base before dealing with only 16 freaking marines. Sprinkle in some Rauders or a Tank and its a much bigger problem that destroys buildings in a heartbeat. Warpgate is mainly use to reinforce armies or sneak units into someone elses base and yeah I guess if you have some cannons you can defend with them too. But all unit producing structures can be used to defend to a certain extent -_-'.
I think this is a really bad change for protoss, you wont even be able to warp un HTs if you see units coming across the whole map and have a storm ready.
I personally find it kind of funny that many Terrans whine about HT drop defense. It's like they have this expectation that every drop they do should be devastating, and if something can be done to effectively defend against their drops, it becomes "OP". Ridiculous.
On February 26 2011 22:34 .syL wrote: hihihi...TLO just played a PvZ vs xlord on his stream and won with templar tech. xlord whines (jokingly) that it's too bad the amulet is not fixed yet to which TLO responds "Fail. I intentionally didn't research it this game :p".
Relevant? Maybe not. Amusing? Most certainly.
/edit ment PvZ, i need to wake up
Thing is though, that both parties need to know that information. xlord ofcourse expected TLO to have it out, so that limits his playstyle to expecting storms to come from everywhere if he isn't careful. That's a huge thing, so you can't really just say "I'm gonna stop researching kayden and see how it is", since the impact will actually be bigger when your opponent know you don't have access to warp-in storms.
It's always as fun to listen to people moan about rines/rauders in TvP while they have no issues with going zlot/sentry/stalker. vikings/ghosts/medivacs are our colossi/ht/immos. I don't really like MMM much, but it always frustrates me that toss esp. look down on MMM while their playstyle is for the most part just as predictable and boring. If any t3 unit complimented the MMM aswell as the colossi does z/s/s, I have no doubt that terran would be using it, but they don't.
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback, you have the only defensive structure that shoots both air and ground but you still feel it's impossible.
I suggest you change the game maybe.
@op I was expecting this amulet removal in the other patches as well, it was one of the most obvious game balance issues.
have you ever played protoss and got double marauder dropped while your army was way outta position? i wanna see how you defend the drop with the superstrong warpgate units against marauders that get healed and can kite the warpgate units to nirvana. you'll also see your canons melting to marauders.
pls try it yourself before you make such a statement.
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback but you still feel it's impossible.
I suggest you change the game maybe.
Troll much? Have you ever watched 16 stimmed marines and 2 dropships go through a base without cannons? He could have 8 gateways and warp in units, if his army was somewhere else he would probably still lose and lose a considerable amount of his base before dealing with only 16 freaking marines. Sprinkle in some Rauders or a Tank and its a much bigger problem that destroys buildings in a heartbeat. Warpgate is mainly use to reinforce armies or sneak units into someone elses base and yeah I guess if you have some cannons you can defend with them too. But all unit producing structures can be used to defend to a certain extent -_-'.
So how does T deal with T drops in mirror matchups? So how does Z deal with T drops? So how does T deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping? So how does Z deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping?
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback, you have the only defensive structure that shoots both air and ground but you still feel it's impossible.
I suggest you change the game maybe.
@op I was expecting this amulet removal in the other patches as well, it was one of the most obvious game balance issues.
have you ever played protoss and got double marauder dropped while your army was way outta position? i wanna see how you defend the drop with the superstrong warpgate units against marauders that get healed and can kite the warpgate units to nirvana. you'll also see your canons melting to marauders.
pls try it yourself before you make such a statement.
it's never supposed to be easy to deal with drops, read above.
in terms of general HT use i don't think its a huge nerf... i thinkt he longerthe game goes the more effect it'll have. if your on 5 base v 5 base pvt or wahtever, some equal late-game, where they are doing 3-4 drops at a time HT have been instrumental in warping in to defend... thats where i think the nerf is going to hurt most
and in before people say "oh just have 1-2 templar at each base pre-emptively" that's like 6-10 HT that wouldn't be in your army in a regular engagement...
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback but you still feel it's impossible.
I suggest you change the game maybe.
Troll much? Have you ever watched 16 stimmed marines and 2 dropships go through a base without cannons? He could have 8 gateways and warp in units, if his army was somewhere else he would probably still lose and lose a considerable amount of his base before dealing with only 16 freaking marines. Sprinkle in some Rauders or a Tank and its a much bigger problem that destroys buildings in a heartbeat. Warpgate is mainly use to reinforce armies or sneak units into someone elses base and yeah I guess if you have some cannons you can defend with them too. But all unit producing structures can be used to defend to a certain extent -_-'.
1.So how does T deal with T drops in mirror matchups? 2.So how does Z deal with T drops? 3.So how does T deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping? 4.So how does Z deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping?
1. with Terran units. mirror matches aren't imbalanced! 2. Speedlings(they're really fast if you didn't know that yet), Infestors, Banelings, mutas 3. when the protoss drops, his units won't be healed from the dropship. also gateway units are way less effective than marines/marauders (dps wise). so how do you deal with it? stim and you're there in a few seconds. 4. point 2 and 3 combined
On February 26 2011 22:34 .syL wrote: hihihi...TLO just played a PvZ vs xlord on his stream and won with templar tech. xlord whines (jokingly) that it's too bad the amulet is not fixed yet to which TLO responds "Fail. I intentionally didn't research it this game :p".
Relevant? Maybe not. Amusing? Most certainly.
/edit ment PvZ, i need to wake up
Thing is though, that both parties need to know that information. xlord ofcourse expected TLO to have it out, so that limits his playstyle to expecting storms to come from everywhere if he isn't careful. That's a huge thing, so you can't really just say "I'm gonna stop researching kayden and see how it is", since the impact will actually be bigger when your opponent know you don't have access to warp-in storms.
It's always as fun to listen to people moan about rines/rauders in TvP while they have no issues with going zlot/sentry/stalker. vikings/ghosts/medivacs are our colossi/ht/immos. I don't really like MMM much, but it always frustrates me that toss esp. look down on MMM while their playstyle is for the most part just as predictable and boring. If any t3 unit complimented the MMM aswell as the colossi does z/s/s, I have no doubt that terran would be using it, but they don't.
The difference is, we don't have much of a choice. For one, our t1 is absolutely wrecked by Z and T's. In addition, we NEED robo, or we lose to any sort of cloak or burrow play.
Protoss needs Colossi or HT's and Sentries, (in addition to expensive, slow upgrades) to deal with masses. This nerf will make one of those even less viable. Protoss will have a mere handful of viable build orders, all revolving around Colossi.
Meanwhile, Terran gets tons of choices
BLUE FLAME HELLIONS THOR DROPS THOR RUSH MM DROPS TWO THOUSAND STIM TIMING PUSHES (I'm sorry, this gets cut down to a few hundred come 1.3) 2-RAX FE BANSHEE HARASS RAVEN/X/X Ect. ect.
The fact of the matter is, KA needed a nerf. Removing it altogether, however, makes Protoss even more predictable. Every Terran and zerg can do their favorite opening into Viking/Corrupter+whatever now, and be safe. Don't bother scouting past the early game.
Personally, I'm switching to zerg if this goes through. I already Korean 4-gate every PvP just so I don't have to deal with Colossi wars. Screw getting them every single match up.
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback but you still feel it's impossible.
I suggest you change the game maybe.
Troll much? Have you ever watched 16 stimmed marines and 2 dropships go through a base without cannons? He could have 8 gateways and warp in units, if his army was somewhere else he would probably still lose and lose a considerable amount of his base before dealing with only 16 freaking marines. Sprinkle in some Rauders or a Tank and its a much bigger problem that destroys buildings in a heartbeat. Warpgate is mainly use to reinforce armies or sneak units into someone elses base and yeah I guess if you have some cannons you can defend with them too. But all unit producing structures can be used to defend to a certain extent -_-'.
1.So how does T deal with T drops in mirror matchups? 2.So how does Z deal with T drops? 3.So how does T deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping? 4.So how does Z deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping?
1. with Terran units. mirror matches aren't imbalanced! 2. Speedlings(they're really fast if you didn't know that yet), Infestors, Banelings, mutas 3. when the protoss drops, his units won't be healed from the dropship. also gateway units are way less effective than marines/marauders (dps wise). so how do you deal with it? stim and you're there in a few seconds. 4. point 2 and 3 combined
One thing i see alot is protoss warping in units next to the terran drop... so they just get owned before they can do anything... always warp in away from their units so you can get a group to fight
As a Toss player, I've always felt the amulet was honestly a tad too powerful - but on the other hand, to take it out completely makes the templar tech so not worth it if you ask me. Personally, I'd like the amulet research to be an increased energy regen speed; I mean whenever you get a storm off, you instantly morph them into archons because its just takes too long for them to get to 75 energy again. This adds some decision making into the game imo, which makes it more fun I think.
I just don't think its a good idea for them to keep taking these researchable things away, makes the gameplay much more linear and boring =/ And of course, I co-sign on Archon being immune to concussive shells, theres no way those things should work on them in the first place.
I cannot believe the whine of players in this thread. You think that t drops should be completely made worthless because of 1 unit so you can sit there and not defend drops like any other race? or that not being able to decimate an army of larger size is a bad balance decision by blizzard? you think you have the right to just win every game that goes to templar tech?
since when was waiting for energy something that was unfair? or having to transition instead of straight up teching to the highest tech something that made your race terrible
On February 26 2011 23:39 RyanRushia wrote: in terms of general HT use i don't think its a huge nerf... i thinkt he longerthe game goes the more effect it'll have. if your on 5 base v 5 base pvt or wahtever, some equal late-game, where they are doing 3-4 drops at a time HT have been instrumental in warping in to defend... thats where i think the nerf is going to hurt most
and in before people say "oh just have 1-2 templar at each base pre-emptively" that's like 6-10 HT that wouldn't be in your army in a regular engagement...
every other race has to prepare for harassment. Protoss had to warp in one unit that could kill of the whole drop instant(feedback) but even if the terran managed to drop you could just storm and be fine. Getting some well placed cannons will deny/limit the drops they can do - i dont see why protoss shouldnt need static defense at all.
What I don't understand is why Blizzard decided to completely remove Khaydarin Amulet. There are enough other options to deal with the problem of warp-in storms (which indeed should be disabled).
The most obvious one coming to my mind would be to let the upgrade change the energy regeneration rate. If energy regenerated twice as quickly, you would not only have a somewhat reasonable storm-charge time (according to OP's math, ~ 22 seconds) so that HTs don't become entirely 'unreinforcable', but you might also see players occasionally keeping their HTs instead of morphing them to Archons right after storm was cast. Of course, my suggestion isn't perfectly balanced (e.g. maybe it should only be 1.5 times as fast), but it seems like a reasonable alternative to removing Khaydarin Amulet altogether.
agreed...HT warps ins were awful to deal with as zerg and blah blah blah
tho imagine archon collosus drops with mass zealot warp ins at my third now
protoss may be getting narrowed but if the pressure is off the robo to make collosus because archons and zealots get more play time then narrowed or not wryly play is sure to follow
as stated this change impacts game choices from around the first few minutes from start so entire builds and tactics should result...imo with the new big maps the change makes protoss more like zerg and as soon as archons show up in tourney hard core mass gateways will spread through the ladder like a wildfire with archons and ONE freaking collosus spreading out opponent forces with old school drops
the problem with every terrans argument is that you dont want to have to stop making a 60%+ tier1 army 20 minutes into a game. if p couldent tech tier3 vs t theyd win about 20% of their games, while if terran couldent tech tier3 it would have very little difference in the overall matchup. terran can literally be on battlecruiser when amulet is done but terran is almost always trying to mass t1/t2 and outnumber the enemy by not teching as fast as protoss has to (not trying to hate on terran t1 specifically, but i wish t3 from every race beats t1 from every race).
as far as spectating ht/defiler/vessel is the reason i started watching pro bw again after i quit bw for like 5 years. caster units with super powerful effects and no auto attack were the highest skillcap and most impressive units in the game and id much rather every races casters were buffed than marginalize them and see them occasionally.
id rather blizz make terran/zerg t3 equal to protoss tier3 if its that overpowered than increase the effectiveness of tier1 vs tier3 which imo is the worst possible game design.
id like to see overall buffs for battlecruiser, carrier and broodlord also, but making/keeping casters powerful is the most important thing to me as a spectator.
On February 26 2011 23:32 Sanguinarius wrote: I think this is a really bad change for protoss, you wont even be able to warp un HTs if you see units coming across the whole map and have a storm ready.
so? time it needs for the 25 energy is ~ the time a ghost or infestor needs to be build.
i still havent seen a argument against it that cant be solved by more careful and planned play. which given the kinda established opinion of "p has it so easy lategame" doesnt seem bad at all to me.
So I'll start by saying I play zerg and my protoss is pretty bad (platinum or so).
I think the lack of amulet won't affect p's ability to defend terran drops, I mean obviously you won't warp in storms to defend any more but all I see warp in storms as is an excuse for protoss to be bad.
Protoss has arguably the best detection in the game (observers) and they're cheap as hell, I see no reason protoss can't get 3 - 4 extra observers to scout potential drop paths (and don't give me the "we need robo for collossus" bullshit, if you need them that badly use the money you save on amulet research to get a second robo for observers and quicker collo reinforcements). if you see a drop warp in either dt's , templar for feedback, stalkers with blink , or just the standard combination of stalker / zealot. any of those should be cabable of handling a drop of 4-8 marauders, if he drops more then that, obviously its gonna be harder to stop, thats only logical and its downright overpowered that protoss is capable of stopping half an army with less then 4 units (not that I'm saying they can, just that some people seem to think that is the case). Oh and you could always make phoenix to snipe drop ships and completely shut down that style of play AND become the harrasser, obviously this has more limited applications then say mutalisks for zerg but still its a start.
Where I do think this will have a huge impact is when terran gets emp, before if a terran actually gets emp (rare) and hits all the templar with it (even rarer) protoss could just warp in more storms, making emps almost useless for stopping storm, this won't be the case anymore and since vikings hard counter collossus I would expect p needs to change their style in pvt a little, maybe relying more on immortals / archons or something.
On February 26 2011 23:39 RyanRushia wrote: Getting some well placed cannons will deny/limit the drops they can do - i dont see why protoss shouldnt need static defense at all.
cannons dont deny drops, you can't have a minefield of cannons around your whole base, all your tech, all your buildings, around your nexus and around every mineral line...
some stimed marauders just fucking kill every building in seconds ^^
On February 26 2011 23:55 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't understand why they don't just adjust it to like 22/23 energy. That's 5/6 seconds Protoss has to wait and enough time to EMP/focus them.
I know right? Giving the protoss a chance to maybe reinforce would be great. We have to keep in mind that high templar aren't used in vacuum.
When your army is emp'd you need something to push the Terran army back while your army recovers some shields to survive.
I understand that warp in storm is kind of broken when attacking mineral lines but to be honest waiting 45 seconds is a long time. If the Terran is going bio and you get emped and your army starts to melt anywhere near your base you have instantly lost. Protoss can't push a terran back without storm when falling behind.
Less energy great, make storm cost a bit more sure but 45 seconds wait time? long, 20 - 30 seconds I could live with.
This is a quite some change for the midgame. But i don't feel it makes protoss unplayable as some of the dudes here suggest. With the KA Upgrade many players would wait to warp in the templars until the upgrade has finished. Now it seems more reasonable to warp in the Templars even before Storm research is finished to build up energy. And without the amulet you'll have one more templar. Now if a enemy makes a timing attack you've certainly got the time to morph archons if needed. I think we will see more Archons (good!) and players will adopt this.
But the change is bigger for the late game, especially against terran, where you were able to warp in 3 Templars and completely rape the Terran Bio Ball. I felt that KA upgrade was too strong for PvT lategame, though nobody can really say that he has much experience or even routine in the late game yet.
On February 26 2011 23:39 RyanRushia wrote: in terms of general HT use i don't think its a huge nerf... i thinkt he longerthe game goes the more effect it'll have. if your on 5 base v 5 base pvt or wahtever, some equal late-game, where they are doing 3-4 drops at a time HT have been instrumental in warping in to defend... thats where i think the nerf is going to hurt most
and in before people say "oh just have 1-2 templar at each base pre-emptively" that's like 6-10 HT that wouldn't be in your army in a regular engagement...
every other race has to prepare for harassment. Protoss had to warp in one unit that could kill of the whole drop instant(feedback) but even if the terran managed to drop you could just storm and be fine. Getting some well placed cannons will deny/limit the drops they can do - i dont see why protoss shouldnt need static defense at all.
Well you can still get a feedback off so thats not changed as far as drops go.
Also it takes more than one Templar to hold off a marauder drop once they have dropped from the medvac. Thats even with cannons there.
Anyway the change isnt in yet, thats the whole point of the test region. I trust blizzard to monitor it the same as they did the fungal growth from the previous PTR patch. Just wish PTR was available in all regions.
On February 26 2011 16:05 avilo wrote: Completely agree with the amulet change. Yes, it's coming from a Terran. But it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many games where protoss can turtle infinitely in the late game versus bio+viking simply because wherever they place a pylon, there is a storm.
Yeah, something needed to be done with the warp-in storm mechanic, but I think they implemented it a little sloppily. There could have been better ways to compensate the already underused tech tree (in PvZ / P at least). As is, this is just going to deter many people from using it on the PTR so Blizzard might not get much feedback (pun intended).
Templar will still be 1 million times effective vs bio, it's just now protoss has to plan just like the rest of us...instead of, "oh, I can warp in and stop you from attacking in 4 places at once."
The change deals with the pacing of how templars will be used in match-ups. The issue I'm seeing is that Protoss players have to dump 50/150 now in order to use storm a minute or so later. With the flimsiness of gateway units against a proper MMG composition, this becomes a lot more riskier, whereas the Terran player hasn't had much change on his side of the matchup (in this stage of the game) to compensate for this pacing change.
and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins.
As for the maps though...yeah...
Yeah, but that is boring as hell to play and watch...
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback but you still feel it's impossible.
I suggest you change the game maybe.
Troll much? Have you ever watched 16 stimmed marines and 2 dropships go through a base without cannons? He could have 8 gateways and warp in units, if his army was somewhere else he would probably still lose and lose a considerable amount of his base before dealing with only 16 freaking marines. Sprinkle in some Rauders or a Tank and its a much bigger problem that destroys buildings in a heartbeat. Warpgate is mainly use to reinforce armies or sneak units into someone elses base and yeah I guess if you have some cannons you can defend with them too. But all unit producing structures can be used to defend to a certain extent -_-'.
1.So how does T deal with T drops in mirror matchups? 2.So how does Z deal with T drops? 3.So how does T deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping? 4.So how does Z deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping?
1. with Terran units. mirror matches aren't imbalanced! 2. Speedlings(they're really fast if you didn't know that yet), Infestors, Banelings, mutas 3. when the protoss drops, his units won't be healed from the dropship. also gateway units are way less effective than marines/marauders (dps wise). so how do you deal with it? stim and you're there in a few seconds. 4. point 2 and 3 combined
You also have to be even more carefull for ghosts. If you look away and they get in a few good EMPs on your high templars you will be good as dead. Right now you can, even if they all get EMPd warp in some new. You will still lose a large part of your army but the templars will be there eventually. So yeah I guess the change made ghost way better and forces you to be more active about them ghosts
Edit: on a side note however charge is improved alot. So kiting zelots is not as simple as before, and they will actually do more then only soak the dmg, and I do think it will help alot against drops and small numbers if bio. Just my 2 cent about the drop issue
Yes warp in storms were too powerful, but making it so you have to wait 44 seconds in-game time just to be able to cast storm?? This makes it very hard for protosses to experiment with the tech tree, which IMHO is still happening and still needs to happen as Starcraft 2 is still reasonably new and new strategies are being broughtfourth all the rime.
Yes, warp in storms are very powerful as if you see a drop on it's way you can just get a storm there in 5 seconds. But now will we have to wait 44 seconds if we see a drop coming? HT's are our only real viable way to avoid harrass as a "last miniute" decision. Sure we could place cannons everywhere we expect a drop but it eats into other costs.
Let's say that if this patch does go through and HT's are nerfed, Protoss play is hugely based on the colossus. (Im not saying this will happen just an abstract idea) then most play against protoss will be mainly focused on dealing with the colossi. I'm not saying that it's bad, but any match might be very predictable on what composition P is going for. I'm not ranting at all that this is bad and some new viable strategies might come from it, but nerfing the HT lime this is not the answer I think we are looking for.
As many have done before me, I agree strongly with Jinro and the proposed BW style of the HT. Either that or making the storms last longer but keeping damage the same (which would make them just as effective if opponent were not to dodge, but less damage if they did dodge.) As well as. Longer warp in time perhaps, not dramatic, but longer. Just my two cents on this very heavy change.
What's the point of referencing research time. The amulet upgrade is to warp in new templar and storm immediately. There is virtually no other use. The OP doesn't address that in the slightest.
Templar builds are universally weak because of the tech window where you get high templar before the amulet upgrade and during the storm upgrade. Before that storm is up your templar are useless. You are also extremely vulnerable to attack since you have just invested in an inactive gas sink.
I don`t think this will affect most of the P MUs very much - I don`t think the key to protoss imbalance (coming from a toss player) are the different match-ups at all. Protoss is imbalanced within itself - warp-in mechanic balances to weaker gateway units (compared to other low tech units) & sentries. Inneficient low-tech point to stronger tech options. The problem as I see it is in 2 areas (1 being related to the HT nerf)?
1) Protoss lacks good mid-tech. Immortals, v-rays & phoenixes are good - and perhaps will evolve even more - but they always seem to pale to other mid-tech (tanks, banshees, hydras, mutas...) inf terms of effectiveness. This increases the gap low-tier/high-tier even more, colossus specially being way more efficient than any of the units above.
2) Colossus were made too strong because any nerf to them, at the moment, seems to make protoss really fragile in the mid game. This could be changed by a bump on mid tech units (which I don`t believe is the right path - even though they are inneficient as a whole these units have great specific purposes) or a bump on other high tech units.
In this context, the Amulet was a key upgrade - much more important in the mid than the late game where the 44s to charge up a templar will really make a difference in defending. This doesn`t adress the main issue of concern - the Colossus - which sees far more use than the HT, is completely binary in efficiency (either they die or they roast the enemy, very rarely do you see a middle ground) and are probably imbalanced compared to the other races.
Tl;DR Warp-in mechanic generate a gap in efficiency between low tech/high tech toss units. Removing amulet nerfs considerably only the first wave of HTs being warped in - late game they will be pretty much as they are now. We are still left with a somewhat broken race whose plans will be even more centered around the Colossus due to its ability to hold mid game pushes and HTs newly aquired inability to do so.
Templar archives play in PvT is going to be extremely susceptible to a number of timing pushes from now on. That's all there is to it. Going straight to robo is a must if this gets implemented and storm will be useful only after the protoss went through the mid game with colo and put himself in a good position where those 40 seconds are neglectible.
Other things this will result in;
1. Protoss loses it's strongest form of mineral line harass. Additionally, every other form of mineral line harass is negated by planetary fortress. 2. Protoss will have a much harder time defending drops in late game TvP. Remember, in sc2 dropping as terran is no longer an investment. The drop comes free with the vital medic unit. This in combination with the destructive force of helion/rine vs workers or marauders vs buildings will make drop play that is already extremely cost efficient nothing less than a must do for every smart terran player. I have already seen enough high level protosses lose a clear advantage due to multi-pronged drops sniping vital tech buildings and nexii to know this is going to be very, VERY hard to deal with.
On February 26 2011 15:44 thezergk wrote: Great job with the math! This is very useful. I'm a Protoss and IMO warp in storm was too powerful so I'm willing to accept the nerf. High Templar will still be useful, just a lot more situational
I completely disagree with you, but I do think your post sums up the results of this nerf perfectly. What most protoss' wants templar to be is an alternative damage dealer to the colossus to create more varied and interesting styles. Colossus or HT are essential parts of any protoss compositions because gateway units simply don't do a whole lot of damage. Buffing gateway units also seems like something close to impossible because it would take fundamental changes to the warpgate mechanic, obviously the last thing we want is the 6.5 min timing increasing in strength.
So basically templar shouldn't be a situational unit. It should be a strong damage dealer to rely on and that doesn't throw you in a ridiculous 3 min timing window where terran can choose to end the game at any point they wish.
It's absurd that blizzard would even think about implementing this at a point where gateway play has only just begun to be used in serious games and terrans probably are a long way from responding to it properly. For one thing, how often do we see terrans using emp to it's full potential in pro games? Not only does emp have further range than storm or feedback but it also just so happens to have the potential to do ridiculous amounts of damage to the protoss ball even disregarding the fact that it can deny storm completely if utilized properly.
The nerf is not a good idea. There are plenty of other ways to nerf HT/storm if they deem it necessary, but I feel like amulet is the only thing balancing EMP. If a terran player has perfect EMPs, it completely shuts down HTs, and the protoss can't do anything about it (EMP has a longer range than feedback). The amulet gave P a chance for just a couple more storms after their army gets EMP'd to hell, and that's IF the Terran isn't able to EMP them as they warp in, which is something that can happen pretty easily too.
I concede that the amulet was creating problems; I especially think warping storms in right behind a mineral line is a bit crazy. At the very least though, I think there should be some compensation.
Remove the upgrade but buff feedback range to equal EMP so HT's aren't helpless against perfect ghosts. Reduce amount of energy gained by amulet so it's not an instant storm. Use Jinro's suggestion and revert to BW style. Buff Archons. I'd be satisfied with any (not all, of course) of those.
I'm really suprised by how many people disagree with this nerf. The nerf mostly affects lategame, where amulet's biggest strength was harrass/defending harass. I admit that longer stim time doesn't make up for lack of amulet, but stronger early-game and weaker late-game is what people wanted in PvT (or is at least what would make the matchup more balanced).
Nonetheless, I feel P should have gotten a buff or some sort.
HTs, and colossus for that matter, are a defensive measure against stimmed rax units. That being said, the benfits of HT will just not be enough to compensate for the risk involved in being the first tier 3 tech of a match. If you catch a bad EMP you very well might just be dead, steamrolled by rax, gg- no emergency replacement templars. Why would you ever risk that if colossus can come into a match fulfilling that role immediately and without potentially having that power instantly revoked? Can you see why it may not be fun for a protoss player to feel like he has to go colossus?
My main concern is protoss becoming stale. I don't want colossus to always be the no brainer choice because of how much safer it is- that's boring for us and our opponents.
On February 27 2011 00:56 Mindflow wrote: Is it just me or is protoss broken to hell atm? sanZenith vs Nestea match is all i gotta say like cmon
that is a terrible example... GSL spoilers in spoiler comment + Show Spoiler +
sanZenith completely outplayed NesTea in that particular game- and it was obviously not a fluke because he dominated all 3 games he played last night... warp-in storm did not play a huge role in that game, as sanZenith's storms were more often than not off-target aside from when he forcefielded those roaches into a box... plus he kept morphing them into archons. when he used the vortex- he didn't archon toilet, either- so that argument is also very close to holding no water. (heehaw toilet pun) He used the HT feedback ability more than anything- which even NesTea was acknowledging by how many overseers he made that game (mo-ship). If anything, sanZenith demonstrated how good HT's can be regardless of storm, even though he did get KA every time. He used many more feedbacks than storms- which HT's will still be able to do upon warp-in.
On February 27 2011 00:56 Mindflow wrote: Is it just me or is protoss broken to hell atm? sanZenith vs Nestea match is all i gotta say like cmon
Is it just me or was zerg broken as hell during gsl 1? I mean come on watch fruitdealer destroy all his opponents in it zerg must have been ridiculously imba then
Consider that not only are warp in storms no longer available, but you're also at the mercy of when your warpgates are available, and your gas. Trying to time out enough gas per warp cycle, in advance of a potential push (so you have your storms ready just in case) will prove much more difficult to manage with colossus production. Especially given that you can not bank on warping HTs last second for a single storm if you're caught off guard by a push.
On February 26 2011 15:38 thethingexe wrote: *Why not just reduce the damage of storm? Or increase the duration of it, but keeping the damage output the same?
I really like this suggestion. Zerg units on creep or stimmed bio would be able to run out of the storms much easier. The counter to this would be that forcefields will still stop them in their place, but in my opinion, if you're forcefielding units into place and then storming spot on, you have earned the domination you put on your opponent. + Show Spoiler +
No more devastating than fungal growth + banelings to bio balls
I feel like EMP will be exponentially more devastating to protoss, as if you ever get an HT clump EMP'd you're done.
I agree with Jinro. This change is probably necessary, but just removing the upgrade is not the optimal thing to do. Either nerf it so that it only gives +20/15 starting energy, or else make it so that it increases Templar regen rate, max energy, or something of that type.
I feel that the nerf is unnecessary. I agree that warp in storms are a little ridiculous but removing amulet is just gonna make protoss play more collosus centered plays. I agree with Jinro, reverting HTs to something like BW where amulet would give you near warp in storms but still have to wait a little.
I don't get the argument that terran is supposed to always win with a huge T1 army with minimal T2 support. How does it ever begin to make sense that every other race has to struggle managing a proper mix of every different techtier to just not lose against terran T1?
As a terran, you scout a templar archives going up, or being finished with a handy scan, during one of your usual drops, doing banshee harass etc. Then why the hell should it be possible to keep massing the same units that the templar archives is supposed to basically hardcounter and still win?
Instawarp-in storm was pretty dumb, but with every protoss T3 unit pretty much out of the picture now it doesn't exactly make for a more interesting or fun game. Terran can just blindly go reactored starports now since they know collossus will be what they have to kill. If they decide to go through, then at least they should strongly consider buffing carriers, archons or some other shit to compensate.
People are angry at the thought of HTs being able to warp in and Storm/Feedback a Terran bio drop.
1) If it is unfair that bio drops are ineffective atm, why isn't it unfair that Protoss Warp Prism (using T1) harassment is ineffective (seeing as it is used far less frequently by pros and has far more drawbacks than bio drops)?
2) Warp-in HTs are pretty much the only cost-effective way of stopping bio drops. Without them, you either have to spam cannons, overwhelm with mass warp in of regular Warp Gate units (very inefficient vs drops) or draw your whole army back to engage. While drawing army back to engage is okay for Zerg (speedlings/mutalisks especially) because of the speed, Protoss armies are very slow and require engagement with all units at once to be effective (synergy, deathball-style, whatever).
3) Surely HTs SHOULD be effective vs bio drops, seeing as HTs are built specifically for the purpose of killing bio? If you scout HTs and still decide to drop with bio, that is your own fault, surely? An alternative would be a different type of harassment (see: Thor drops, Hellion run-bys, Tank drops on high ground etc) once HTs are out.
I think this change will shift the P metagame a bit, instead of colossi->ht tech off 3 base we might see more and more archons being used as another unit to add to the death ball. Most P simply say they suck and that's that, but imo they haven't really been tested enough by most players to consider them void.
What will probably end up happening is people will open colossi and when the time comes where they would begin HT tech, they just spend their gas on air units to preserve the colossi's usefulness and prevent harass.
I honestly believe that this is just growing pains for toss. There are institutions in the toss tech tree that blizzard has been very hesitant to change the character of and they are the collo and the HT. Since up to this point blizzard has been unwilling to compromise them, the rest of the toss army has been nerfed to oblivion around them. Sure if they proceed to nerf Collo or warpgate toss win ratios will plummet (and they may already drop quite a bit from this) but once these changes are made they will be able to buff stalkers and zealots to be on par with marines and marauders. Then the game will be far more standardized and balanced.
Yeah this is pretty much bullshit. I agree that storm warpins on mineral lines were probably too strong, but that's not a reason to nerf an already underused techtree this hard. People are saying "Oh well, P will just have to warp them in earlier and wait. They can still warp them in anywhere on the map, what's the problem?"
Firstly, P can only warp in where there's power. Yeah, obvious I know. But then if you don't want P warping in at a location, then just don't let them get power there. Sensor towers for T, or leaving an infestor at base for Z (much more tricky but then it's T that is doing the majority of the complaining). P can get extra observers and spread them around, I guess. Hooray, storm drops are immediately less effective. It's not like blueflame hellion drops or stim marauder drops aren't just as scary anyway.
Second, warping in at their army and insta-storming bioballs. What does storm destroy? MM, hydra and mass muta are the things that come to mind for me. Coincidentally, these are all things that warping in other gateway units against will be next to useless. The reason P needs the ability to insta-reinforce with high tech units is because their core gateway units will lose an equal food battle with T and Z core units. Lategame P play revolves around the high tier units and keeping them alive long enough to do damage. HTs hanging around waiting for storm energy is going to result in the rest of the P army melting. If you're fighting P where he has power, then he has a defensive position to warp in powerful stuff. Not a big difference from setting up siege or having good creep spread there.
HTs are slow. If you don't move them with your army or warp them in where you need them, they are sitting ducks. HTs are useless without energy, you use them for their ability (storm, feedback) and then morph them to archons. The speed of getting the ability you need is key. P doesn't want to leave slow, vulnerable HTs lying around for longer than he has to. You need multiple clutch HTs to deal with drops anyway which is forcing expense, its not like one storm is going to kill it, and if you're warping in time to feedback then the amulet makes no difference.
Blah I forget if I was going to say anything else. More collosi in every matchup, yaaaay. I'm sleep deprived and annoyed about losing a viable tech tree as P. Oh and DISCLAIMER: I PLAY RANDOM, so this isn't just P butthurt whining. At the very least it's R butthurt whining
On February 27 2011 02:06 Hexaflex wrote: Second, warping in at their army and insta-storming bioballs. What does storm destroy? MM, hydra and mass muta are the things that come to mind for me. Coincidentally, these are all things that warping in other gateway units against will be next to useless.
coincidentally they destroy vikings, the only real counter to colossi. and hellions. and banshees, and they're not too shabby against sieges also.
On February 27 2011 02:06 Hexaflex wrote: Second, warping in at their army and insta-storming bioballs. What does storm destroy? MM, hydra and mass muta are the things that come to mind for me. Coincidentally, these are all things that warping in other gateway units against will be next to useless.
coincidentally they destroy vikings, the only real counter to colossi. and hellions. and banshees, and they're not too shabby against sieges also.
ling baneling are squishy to storms too.
If the vikings are in range to get stormed, that is. Range 9 for all involved, with collosi and vikings being much faster than HTs, and with vikings being able to fire a volley, pull back and fire again. If the collosi pull back the vikings have done their job anyway, and a decent number of vikings will take down collosi quickly despite having to micro back and forth.
If you're gonna storm hellions you'd better be carpeting the whole area or blocking them with FF. Siege only really gets stormed when T is pulling back and they can't unsiege quickly enough because otherwise the T army is up ahead. In that situation the siege is going to be vulnerable to the P army anyway, storm or not.
Banshees I'll give you.
Lings are terrible at fighting a lategame P army anyway because of surface area and/or zealots. Used for surrounding or backstabbing they have the speed/are in close enough to P that storms are less effective. Blings on creep will still need to be FF'd to keep them away. Other than that, yeah storms are good vs blings. Why shouldn't they be?
In your perfect world a colossi should never be hit by a marine or marauder because it has more range. A stalker should never take damage from a marine and a zealot becomes useless when 2 marines or more are out.
Im not saying they shouldnt take damage (maybe viking should take less as it is armored), but then again it doesnt really matter. I was pointing out HTs kill more than just mm hydra muta and ling, while they still soften anything else.
I think if this change goes through it needs to be accompanied by an EMP change. I'm fine with not having instant warp in storms if the HTs I *have* been saving up energy on aren't so easily negated by ghosts. Right now it's rather easy for a late game terran bioball to have 4+ ghosts and trivialize HTs. Without the ability to warp in new HTs with 75 energy it will be very difficult for P in late game.
Personally I would love it if they changed EMP to either only take out shields or only remove energy, but perhaps that is wishful thinking.
Well i am not worried about the nerf itself, but the implications it will have to the matchups. The most worrying of them all is that terran and zerg can now go straight into vikings/corruptors + their favorite mix of ground units without scouting, as the only viable option for toss now is going to be colossi. That is actually a 'nerf' and not 'buff' for colossus play as protoss has to make them in order to stay alive - so if you think about it its a double nerf (to hts and colossus as well). It may seem to you a little bit stretched out but thats what is going to happen once the changes settle and terrans/zergs fully understand the new situation.
I guess from now on we are going to see more new strategies such as 6gate double forge, but thats a strat that requires way way more skill in comparison to MMM. Also, Colossus/Phoenix wont be viable anymore as all terran has to do is get out a single Thor and you can kiss goodbye your phoenixes - not only leaving colossus undefended but more importantly negating a whole tech tree toss chose to follow instead of getting more ground units.
Sure, warp-in storms was kind of strong but toss doesnt have the mobility of the other races in order to deal with simultaneous drops in the late game. Anyway, I think the best option for Blizzard is either Jinro's suggestion (63 energy) or make KA just give higher regenation rate instead of +25.
I think Jinro's suggestion of less than 75 energy makes sense as that prevents storm warp-ins which are the only reason HTs are ridiculous right now. If someone has HTs for warp-in time + 5 seconds in your base without you realising, then you deserve to lose all your workers.
Storm is really cost inefficient vs drops because you have to use 1-2 HTs plus supporting units just to kill 1 drop of a couple of MM.
As for main army battles, it doesn't seem like an issue if MMM is not cost efficient against a late-game protoss army. Terran should be required to transition out of MMM by the lategame just like zerg cannot go roach hydra all game and expect to win or protoss cannot go blink stalker, sentry, chargelot
On February 27 2011 03:15 danielsan wrote: Sorry, your arguments are ridiculous.
In your perfect world a colossi should never be hit by a marine or marauder because it has more range. A stalker should never take damage from a marine and a zealot becomes useless when 2 marines or more are out.
Im not saying they shouldnt take damage (maybe viking should take less as it is armored), but then again it doesnt really matter. I was pointing out HTs kill more than just mm hydra muta and ling, while they still soften anything else.
My point was that HTs are best against MM hydra muta which are the things that destroy the other units P could warp in. P can't warp in anything else that will be truly effective against them.
I was just saying that your point (that storm hurts other things too) was less relevant because of range/speed/unit use making it less effective. Yes storm is still good against them, but not so good that instastorm was unfair. And the reason P needs instastorm has much less to do with those units, but rather because of the MM/Hydra/Muta.
aww so sad that now again there actually have to be an idle templar at any toss base that could be dropped (he will have 2 storms probably and will save you 50/150 for doing the same thing (a dt under the dropship is way cooler anyway, drop slash drop slash *g*)), and will have to use a warp prism now that actually is filled with something. Anyway that makes hts now more a support unit for colossi and a feedback unit and archon afterwards (which is quiet strong).
But i would also go for the oldschool mechanic for templars + give the same upgrade to raven *-* for more seeker use.
I dont like the fact that they'll take out the amulet so our HT can warp in to do a storm but they'll leave ghosts with their upgrade to emp right away. Not to mention a competent Terran will always EMP your HT befor you can feedback it because EMP outranges HT. Thats the thing i'm more pissed at because of the removal of the amulet
On February 27 2011 03:49 Dark-Storm wrote: I dont like the fact that they'll take out the amulet so our HT can warp in to do a storm but they'll leave ghosts with their upgrade to emp right away. Not to mention a competent Terran will always EMP your HT befor you can feedback it because EMP outranges HT. Thats the thing i'm more pissed at because of the removal of the amulet
people need to stop pulling that comparison.
emp doesnt kill, is support, ghost has a quite long buildtime (warpin is what, 3 seconds?), is more expensive,very situational, ... etc
On February 27 2011 03:49 Dark-Storm wrote: I dont like the fact that they'll take out the amulet so our HT can warp in to do a storm but they'll leave ghosts with their upgrade to emp right away. Not to mention a competent Terran will always EMP your HT befor you can feedback it because EMP outranges HT. Thats the thing i'm more pissed at because of the removal of the amulet
Would you rather they change HT warp-in time to their build time instead? That's more comparable to what you're complaining about.
with the ht drop they become neglected by ghosts.. so for it to be fair.. ghost should start with less energy so they can't instant-emp a protoss.. considering the fact that a single emp does 500+ damage easy against protoss.. and emp/ghosts aren't used against zerg makes would make it fair to make ghosts worse if you make the HT worse..the instant storm is only good vs terran drops cause protoss army are so incedebly immobile.. and 1 warpin of zealots/stalkers won't kill 1 dropship full of marines/marauders with the heal they get from the dropship. this will make drops so effective that they will kill the game.. cause protoss won't be able to go more then 3 bases without making 200 canons to prevent drops.. which is ridiculous..
On February 27 2011 04:03 VenerableSpace wrote: As a P player, I can understand the amulet change. I think initially removing it on the PTR is ok to gauge PvT lategame changes.
Though i think the stim nerf is not enough, 30s is not much gametime. I think stim should be a mid/late game upgrade and require a factory or armory.
I think 1 base void ray is too dominant if u push stim upgrade too far back
On February 27 2011 03:49 Dark-Storm wrote: I dont like the fact that they'll take out the amulet so our HT can warp in to do a storm but they'll leave ghosts with their upgrade to emp right away. Not to mention a competent Terran will always EMP your HT befor you can feedback it because EMP outranges HT. Thats the thing i'm more pissed at because of the removal of the amulet
people need to stop pulling that comparison.
emp doesnt kill, is support, ghost has a quite long buildtime (warpin is what, 3 seconds?), is more expensive,very situational, ... etc
More expensive ahhhhaaha. Seirously. Atleast make the attempt to respond to the statement.
Emp destroys sentries and hts (their dps is trivial and their impact is negligible without their spells) in addition to significantly destroying immortal utility and instantly melting half the health of the rest of the army. Only thing situational about it is how amazingly powerful it is if you hit toss spell casters as opposed to the main force in which case it's only very strong.
That's of course ignoring how resilient ghosts are and their lovely damage to light units all for 100 more minerals.
Then we can talk about the ghost academy and instant emp as opposed to the torturous route to HTs. And I don't think most terrans understand how warp in works. The cooldown varies based on the previous unit warped in. Provided the slot is open and isn't on an excessive delay from whatever else you warped in, temps have to do damage or it's goin to take forever to warp in a new set of (oh so useful) reinforcements.
Ravens and ghosts are so underrated by orders of magnitude.
Would you rather they change HT warp-in time to their build time instead? That's more comparable to what you're complaining about.
Perhaps the cool-down time for the HT be made the same? You REALLY can't compare warp-in to build time. P and T are completely different that way. Apples and Oranges.
Would you rather they change HT warp-in time to their build time instead? That's more comparable to what you're complaining about.
Perhaps the cool-down time for the HT be made the same? You REALLY can't compare warp-in to build time. P and T are completely different that way. Apples and Oranges.
Now that's an idea... instead of having HT warp in with usual time let them warp in uniquely... start off red and turn orange yellow then blue and green and finally warp in... this process takes the build time of a HT and that way maybe they can feasibly keep their amulet upgrade
But then the question becomes... do u want insta warp in for feedback? or do you want slow warp in for storms?
Removing amulet completely is just wrong. Storm warps obviously were too good but I guess if amulet would add only like this 12,5 starting energy mentioned before, it would be fine. It wouldn't allow to "in-battle" storm warps so I guess it would work. Well terrans do still have mineral lane wrecking blue flame hellions drops and there is no sign of removing this upgrade, nor do I feel like it should be removed. Just like amulet should not be.
Now that's an idea... instead of having HT warp in with usual time let them warp in uniquely... start off red and turn orange yellow then blue and green and finally warp in... this process takes the build time of a HT and that way maybe they can feasibly keep their amulet upgrade
that's not what I meant. I mean after warping in a HT (regular time) the length of time before you can warp in anything else (cooldown) on that warpgate be the same as a ghost.
Completely agree with the amulet change. Yes, it's coming from a Terran. But it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many games where protoss can turtle infinitely in the late game versus bio+viking simply because wherever they place a pylon, there is a storm.
This would be like me being able to warp-in ghosts and nukes for defense...great change imo, I'm sure other Terrans are happy about this.
Templar will still be 1 million times effective vs bio, it's just now protoss has to plan just like the rest of us...instead of, "oh, I can warp in and stop you from attacking in 4 places at once."
and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins.
As for the maps though...yeah...
Why are u complaining if collosus+phoenix+stalker ball is better than HT? I have already seen enough high level protosses lose a clear advantage due to multi-pronged drops sniping vital tech buildings and nexii to know this is going to be very, VERY hard to deal with.
Guys, don't forget that HTs actually got buffed too, although indirectly.
Chargelots will now always get at least 1 hit in. We all know that Zealots are very good, especially against MMM in a straight up fight. Charge allows them to continue fighting MMM that's kiting, but previously many hits would "miss" because Charge doesn't guarantee at least 1 hit per Charge. However, now with this change, Chargelots by themselves will be very very good against MMM (they always were good but they'll be even better now). And because of this, it will be much easier to survive that long period of time before you get your HTs up (and you can get your HTs earlier now that you don't need to research the Amulet upgrade).
Thoughts? Did I miss something?
And again I still haven't seen one reason why as to why they don't just increase the HT warp-in time (NOT cooldown), or even reduce the Amulet upgrade or something like Jinro said. Can anyone think of even the slightest reason why?
On February 27 2011 04:18 Carmine wrote: Thank goodness as a Terran I can instantly warp in a sieged tank anywhere. It would be impossible to defend all this lategame harass without it.
Yeh, those warp prisms full of ranged high dps units going around really bother us!
On February 27 2011 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Guys, don't forget that HTs actually got buffed too, although indirectly.
Chargelots will now always get at least 1 hit in. We all know that Zealots are very good, especially against MMM in a straight up fight. Charge allows them to continue fighting MMM that's kiting, but previously many hits would "miss" because Charge doesn't guarantee at least 1 hit per Charge. However, now with this change, Chargelots by themselves will be very very good against MMM (they always were good but they'll be even better now). And because of this, it will be much easier to survive that long period of time before you get your HTs up (and you can get your HTs earlier now that you don't need to research the Amulet upgrade).
Thoughts? Did I miss something?
And again I still haven't seen one reason why as to why they don't just increase the HT warp-in time (NOT cooldown), or even reduce the Amulet upgrade or something like Jinro said. Can anyone think of even the slightest reason why?
Probably testing an extreme, to better find where the middle optimal ground is, not sure.
I am quite surprised there are so many people here who still insist on describing EMP as instant damage and comparing it to storm. EMP is a powerfull ability there is no doubt about it, but no matter how much you twist and turn it is a SUPPORT ability. It cannot kill a single unit (not even an archon who is almost nothing except shields) by itself. Yes 3-4 clutch EMPs can remove the shields from an entire protoss ball but by itself that is no damage. A Proper Storm carpet laid down means the Terran army HAS to disengage or die. No other choices available (and even if they do turn around immediatly chances are you won't a decent amount of marines out alive anyway). If you try to "run through" and press the Protoss army will cut them to pieces.
What was the usual situation before this change (If both players were playing about equally macrowise)? Usually the battle came down to 2 questions: Do my emps land before his storms go off or the other way around and the second question: If i have EMPed perfectly can i catch his entire army before he gets reinforced.
With forcefields as a tool to cover their retreat i have seen quite a few protoss retreat successfully if the Terran EMPs well. 20s later they will have a new round of templars and a few Archons and go for it again. The Terran on the other hand will now have maybe 1 more EMP left, because even if he immediatly ordered new Ghosts they won't be anywhere near finished (never mind in the correct position on the map).
How can that be fair in any way? Frankly i am completly fine with the warpgate mechanic and the "normal" units (stalker, sentry, zealot). Even if those units can be upgraded to remain very usefull into the very late game, it's one of the differences between races which makes the game fun.
The ability to instantly warp in 6 High Tech units anywhere you want with their spells ready for use on the other hand has always annoyed the stuffing out of me, because it makes beating protoss in the very lategame almost impossible. Frankly i welcome this change, mostly because i can maybe start to play proper macro games against protoss again.
THIS SUKS how can protoss defend drops the only think i can think of is rlly fast warp in an ht feedback and then while ht is warpin get 2 stalkers and snipe it before the medivac drops but would take rlly rlly fast reaction time
On February 26 2011 17:25 numberThirtyOne wrote: During the first game from tonight Nestea vs someone on Shakuras, Artosis said Amulet is the most powerful upgrade in the game and probably needs to be removed.
More and more I have less confidence that artosis actually knows what he is talking about. He only looks at things from a zerg perspective.
Would you rather they change HT warp-in time to their build time instead? That's more comparable to what you're complaining about.
Perhaps the cool-down time for the HT be made the same? You REALLY can't compare warp-in to build time. P and T are completely different that way. Apples and Oranges.
Now that's an idea... instead of having HT warp in with usual time let them warp in uniquely... start off red and turn orange yellow then blue and green and finally warp in... this process takes the build time of a HT and that way maybe they can feasibly keep their amulet upgrade
But then the question becomes... do u want insta warp in for feedback? or do you want slow warp in for storms?
@ptb High Templar already have a Buildtime of effectivly 50s+44s for them to get enough energy. you need to invest 150Gas and 90s ingame time until you can do 80dmg over 8s.
if you get 3-4 HTs your you get like 3-4 storms, while your army is alot weaker due to tech and bound ressources. so going HT most likely is an all-in, cause if those storms fail to do decent dmg, you lose.
That is fine as long as you can reinforce with HTs to keep you safe, but this is now dead. Now something else has to replace the Warp-in HTs to keep your army alive.
This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
On February 27 2011 03:49 Dark-Storm wrote: I dont like the fact that they'll take out the amulet so our HT can warp in to do a storm but they'll leave ghosts with their upgrade to emp right away. Not to mention a competent Terran will always EMP your HT befor you can feedback it because EMP outranges HT. Thats the thing i'm more pissed at because of the removal of the amulet
people need to stop pulling that comparison.
emp doesnt kill, is support, ghost has a quite long buildtime (warpin is what, 3 seconds?), is more expensive,very situational, ... etc
More expensive ahhhhaaha. Seirously. Atleast make the attempt to respond to the statement.
Emp destroys sentries and hts (their dps is trivial and their impact is negligible without their spells) in addition to significantly destroying immortal utility and instantly melting half the health of the rest of the army. Only thing situational about it is how amazingly powerful it is if you hit toss spell casters as opposed to the main force in which case it's only very strong.
That's of course ignoring how resilient ghosts are and their lovely damage to light units all for 100 more minerals.
Then we can talk about the ghost academy and instant emp as opposed to the torturous route to HTs. And I don't think most terrans understand how warp in works. The cooldown varies based on the previous unit warped in. Provided the slot is open and isn't on an excessive delay from whatever else you warped in, temps have to do damage or it's goin to take forever to warp in a new set of (oh so useful) reinforcements.
Ravens and ghosts are so underrated by orders of magnitude.
From the perspective of a bad low league player i cant understand the amount of whine this change is getting. The amulet upgrade was absolutely game breaking for me. The problem is i was able to put extreme amounts of pressure with HT's for very little cost (because you reinforce army with archons afterwards). It got to the point i didnt even learn to 4 gate properly because it felt so hard to pull off in comparison. Now i feel HT has a bit risk/reward thing attached. And crying about ghosts is just pathetic imo. I feel this unit is the only thing between my deathball and total annihilation of any composition of terran units. Again this is a perspective of low skill toss player.
On February 26 2011 17:25 numberThirtyOne wrote: During the first game from tonight Nestea vs someone on Shakuras, Artosis said Amulet is the most powerful upgrade in the game and probably needs to be removed.
More and more I have less confidence that artosis actually knows what he is talking about. He only looks at things from a zerg perspective.
I think you shouldn't take 2nd hand sources. If you want to comment on Artosis's bias you should go and get the actual audio/footage and comment from there, not some post by a forum goer.
Either way I don't think there's any pro out there that thinks Amulet was good in it's current form. That being said complete removal without any compensation is a little silly. I could picture a massive storm buff and possible increase to feedback range as a very good addition to HT. Instant warp-in storms are just ridiculously silly. Another potential idea is a regen/movement speed upgrade.
On February 26 2011 15:50 Basileus wrote: I feel it's going to be incredibly difficult to deal with a good two base timing attack by terran if you choose the storm before colossus route without the amulet. Furthermore, its also going to be harder to deal with terran drops, since terran units are far more efficient in smaller numbers. Also you have to consider army trades bewteen terran and protoss. If the exchange is even and the majority of the armies are gone, the terran can remacro and attack again, while the protoss is going to have to wait for storm to charge up.
While instant storms on mineral lines might have been unfair, taking away amulet isn't the answer, perhaps just lowering the amount on how much energy the upgrade gives would be reasonable.
I think it's a huge nerf. Quote above sums it up well. Personally, I don't like the nerf at all.
pretty much blizzard is just forcing protoss to play a certain way with the patch. no one is going to open storm any more. if you go ht the terran will just go thru your base with cloaked banshees and 3 shot the 60 energy hts
pretty terrible change imo. i would understand reducing the upgrade to +20 energy but without a change to ghosts (upgrade for emp or removal of their energy upgrade) their effectiveness is decimated.
and i don't understand people saying that emp is not comparable to storm.. it can easily do 1k damage INSTANTLY and essentially takes handfuls of sentries off the field at a time, and with cloak + good obs spotting/sniping, you can't just say ht's will just feedback every ghost before they get the emp off.
if this goes live every pvt is going to look exactly the same
Either way I don't think there's any pro out there that thinks Amulet was good in it's current form. That being said complete removal without any compensation is a little silly. I could picture a massive storm buff and possible increase to feedback range as a very good addition to HT. Instant warp-in storms are just ridiculously silly. Another potential idea is a regen/movement speed upgrade.
Yeah, instastorms are a nightmare for T and Z I think everyone agrees, but just taking away amulet with no compensation buff makes HTs too weak, at least in comparison to collosi. I think that's the general consensus here.
I think something to be considered is that the amulet by itself may not be that impressive, but the amulet+warp in is what makes it strong. Additionally, while it takes 44 seconds, you have to consider that the energy starts generating as soon as they are in.
I think it's not exactly fair to compare the caster units as apples to apples, but it's hard not to. Infestors (50sec) and ghosts(40) have a build time and then start generating energy. So whereas the templar is warped in 5 seconds and begins regenerated, by the time the cooldown is up you have the energy you might need. I think this is what they are basing this decision on, maybe if protoss used gateways (lolololololol) it wouldn't be removed. To say that it's a questionable decision I think is a little harsh, warp in already has a pretty good advantage with reinforcing and to reinforce with a storm already ready, is kind of strong.
I predicted something like this happening awhile back only I thought all 3 races would have their energy boosts removed.
This argument about needing amulet warpin to defend drops is bogus.
How does T defend against mutas? How do good P defend against harass? By leaving fucking units there. You think he's patrolling with 20food, you leave 8 food/cannons at distant position and have your army camp the other position.
Instead you want to be able to rely on warpin to completely negate any harass. That's bullshit. No other race can on demand pull out a cycle of units wherever they want, yet they can all handle harass reasonably well with good scouting/positioning.
On February 26 2011 17:25 numberThirtyOne wrote: During the first game from tonight Nestea vs someone on Shakuras, Artosis said Amulet is the most powerful upgrade in the game and probably needs to be removed.
More and more I have less confidence that artosis actually knows what he is talking about. He only looks at things from a zerg perspective.
Wrong my friend go watch that vod again at around 23:56 he said it is strong but it should be taken out pretty soon ACCORDING to what the patch notes are saying.
On February 26 2011 17:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I think Protoss really needs something for Templars.
Think of it this way. For the gas cost of the amulet upgrade, Protoss can only make 1 HT extra. So while people can say to get HTs earlier, this is actually going to change builds, unit compositions, and expansion timings, due to balancing around the gas cost for earlier and/or more HT.
In terms of storms, you will have to make Templar much in advance to be effective. While this is not bad per se, it does make the ghost much more devastating. If the protoss is hit by EMPs in such a way that they lose all their HT energy, then that opens up a 44.4 second timing window for Terran to attack or drop without fear of storms.
This also makes the decision to feedback much harder. To replenish the energy spent from a feedback, it will take 88.9 seconds. This means that you can feedback off newly made HTs, but if you feedback with older HTs, then they either cannot storm, or they must have been alive for 133.3 seconds already, to be able to afford a feedback and then a storm. What I think this will result in, is an overproduction of HTs, so that you can afford to feedback ghosts, but still have storm on other HTs. This also greatly reduces the efficiency of HTs stopping drops, as they must already be around, in order to be in position and have a storm ready.
I feel this also opens too many windows for the opponent to attack after any engagement with storms. If the opponent realizes that the protoss has spent all Templar energy, then he knows that he has a 44.4 second window to attack without there being any storms. This seems huge for drops and timing pushes, as it takes out any uncertainty in the threat of storms.
Personally, I don't think this is a good decision, and that some compromise should be made, both for these reasons, and others.
So I'm gonna bring this up again, because I don't think many people have seen it or mentioned anything similar recently.
My question is, what do people think of the fact that if all HT energy is used on a Terran/Zerg, he gets an assured window to attack the protoss before storm can be up again? This seems pretty huge to me, as say against a Terran, after a major engagement where all storms are used, he has a window where he can perform multiple drops without there being any storms.
I also think that this is going to make storm-baiting a lot more common, and will force the protoss to ball up his units more, so that he can deal with smaller forces easily without having to use storms.
i would be ok with this nerf except for EMP. it makes your current templar worthless and we need some reinforcement so we can get off a storm. if EMP was nerfed i would be ok with this chnage or make it give 70 energy so you haev to wait a little bit but toss needs to be able to reinforce with HT against bio
As a protoss I am really really sad to see to this go.
And I am having a hard to understanding how Blizz can justify it.
Protoss spends the entire game thinking of ways to handle stim MMM. Be it collusus or this, and as a player who absolutly despises the colussus for how quickly it dies to mass viking(which it cannot fight back against) I modeled my PvT around templar tech only, HTs can fight their enemies(ghosts) with some feedbackan. But now that won't be as viable, no terran is going to respect my storm tech, and you can no longer save a few gateways to warp in storms if the terran lands a money emp( Yes I spread my templars but sometimes shit happens ). 1 emp can now change the entire game.
Why is this happening is my real question? Protoss techs all the way to tier 3 and blizzard nerfs them so Terran tier 1 units are still viable. Why don't you tech too terran? Hmmmm? You have other units and last I checked storm isn't viable against a mass siege line. Stop trying to all-in me, secure some bases and start teching to your fancier units damn it. /rant.
On February 26 2011 17:25 numberThirtyOne wrote: During the first game from tonight Nestea vs someone on Shakuras, Artosis said Amulet is the most powerful upgrade in the game and probably needs to be removed.
More and more I have less confidence that artosis actually knows what he is talking about. He only looks at things from a zerg perspective.
Bad change but I'm not sure what they could have to changed to fix it since a change is obviously needed.
However, in terms of defense, Protoss need these storms because the Terran player is able to drop at will while Protoss hardly ever drop because of Vikings patrolling the whole map. Any drop that a Protoss attempts will inevitably result in a dead Warp Prism and other huge losses of resources from the units destroyed. Whereas a Terran can always do guerilla warfare attacks in and out of the Protoss base without as much risk. I think this update will make the matchup even more stale.
On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote: This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor.
I don't think that Blizz could possibly go through with this exact change. Similar to the original Infestor nerf a patch ago, it will be removed in PTR for being too drastic. However, I do feel they will try to nerf it some other way. Whatever that will be, I do not know. But I am doubting at this point the change will make it to the actual game.
On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote: This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor.
Tyler hitten em wit da gospel... where'd i put my popcornz
I've thought about it more... and if warp-in storms vs workers is the reason for the nerf then I think I'm even more against it. Here's why:
If you don't see a HT drop (or any threatening worker harass from any race) you will lose a ton of workers. That's a given, and that is part of the game, right? You deserve to lose workers. If you let 20 zerglings in your base, you are losing your workers. Mutas over your workers with no stalkers in sight? Losing workers. Bio drop that you never saw coming? Bye bye workers.
BUT IF you see an incoming HT or three soon enough (5 seconds?), you can move your workers away and potentially lose zero workers. HT are slow, phase prisms die easily, etc. You even have options to attack with a couple of workers if HT is unescorted b/c HT has no basic attack. Or just run workers away until you have a small group of units to defend (as few as 1-2 marauders, 1-2 hellion, 1-2 roach, handfull of lings, etc.). So there are options for ZERO workers lost IF you see them incoming. The hatchery and command center of whatever variety is 100% safe from HT damage as well as other buildings. Protoss has to bring a large gateway army or immortals to be scary vs buildings... and orbitals fly so even that's not always a problem for T.
Now if you see a bio drop incoming, you will usually lose some workers because you can't outrun stimmed bio. Or let's say you see it coming a mile away you can run your workers away, but you still lose your nexus/hatch which is still bad.
Hellions with blueflames? No, you are guaranteed to lose many workers unless you have a big ground force or tons of cannons/sunkens/forcefields/etc. Buildings fairly safe though.
Mutas or banshees? Similar options as a bio drop. Can kill orbitals, nexus, hatch. Usually guaranteed a few kills at least b/c faster than medivacs.
So in my eyes, the decision should not be about worker harass at all. It had better be about some inherent army vs army problem.
On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote: This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor.
I don't like Colossus in Design. Also Storm benefits alot from Zealot surrounds. Colossus in my eyes need to long to deal their damage (unless you have decent numbers)
2-3 Storms to negate the Medivacs healing, and your ground army deals great damage while you can easily reinforce with Zealots (trading Minerals against Mineral/Gas Units is always good in my eyes)
As long as you have enough Sentry Energy for GS Warpgate Army is ok. But Double Forge Builds needs AoE when Medivacs kick in, thats my experiance. Templar in my Eyes is way more viable cause you will have TC because you need it for the +2/+2upgrades.
Colossus in that equation takes too long.
Storm nerf would force me to deviate my build into getting Colossus. (don't like that)
My main concern as a protoss is with how this affects mobility for protoss. Protoss armies moreso than other races seem to really need to be together to be effective. Its going to be even easier for the other races to split your army up and reduce your effectiveness at key moments.
Kind of funny that everyone skipped over Jinro's post on the first page when hes playing at a higher level than probably anyone who has read this thread. I like the idea of all casters starting with 63 energy and just removing the upgrades. At least that way if you spot a drop coming you can react without spliting your entire army up. A terran can send 400 minerals worth of marines and be more than fine vs. a drop, zerg has a queen there already and extremely fast units to get to the drop location, but protoss will have a very tough time defending them on equal resouces, if its even possible. I hate the fact that In order to be really safe I have to kind of hope im not using all of my gateways.
Solution is probably just build a ton of observers, which obviously leads to some other problems when you're looking down and at your army and seeing 2 or 3 less colo/immortals.
On February 26 2011 17:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote: I think Protoss really needs something for Templars.
Think of it this way. For the gas cost of the amulet upgrade, Protoss can only make 1 HT extra. So while people can say to get HTs earlier, this is actually going to change builds, unit compositions, and expansion timings, due to balancing around the gas cost for earlier and/or more HT.
In terms of storms, you will have to make Templar much in advance to be effective. While this is not bad per se, it does make the ghost much more devastating. If the protoss is hit by EMPs in such a way that they lose all their HT energy, then that opens up a 44.4 second timing window for Terran to attack or drop without fear of storms.
This also makes the decision to feedback much harder. To replenish the energy spent from a feedback, it will take 88.9 seconds. This means that you can feedback off newly made HTs, but if you feedback with older HTs, then they either cannot storm, or they must have been alive for 133.3 seconds already, to be able to afford a feedback and then a storm. What I think this will result in, is an overproduction of HTs, so that you can afford to feedback ghosts, but still have storm on other HTs. This also greatly reduces the efficiency of HTs stopping drops, as they must already be around, in order to be in position and have a storm ready.
I feel this also opens too many windows for the opponent to attack after any engagement with storms. If the opponent realizes that the protoss has spent all Templar energy, then he knows that he has a 44.4 second window to attack without there being any storms. This seems huge for drops and timing pushes, as it takes out any uncertainty in the threat of storms.
Personally, I don't think this is a good decision, and that some compromise should be made, both for these reasons, and others.
So I'm gonna bring this up again, because I don't think many people have seen it or mentioned anything similar recently.
My question is, what do people think of the fact that if all HT energy is used on a Terran/Zerg, he gets an assured window to attack the protoss before storm can be up again? This seems pretty huge to me, as say against a Terran, after a major engagement where all storms are used, he has a window where he can perform multiple drops without there being any storms.
I also think that this is going to make storm-baiting a lot more common, and will force the protoss to ball up his units more, so that he can deal with smaller forces easily without having to use storms.
This change means Protoss will have to be more careful about how they use their storms, for sure, but there won't be time intervals when they don't have any storms unless they warp in all their templars at the same time and use all their storms at once. Plus they can just leave HT at their expos to steadily charge up energy like most did in BW; that way they can even have multiple storms. Still not sure how I feel about this change.
Unless I missed something, Psionic Storm was nerfed badly since BW (reduced area and damage) because warp-in + amulet allow Protoss to have many more castings (if they pony up the cash) and made it much less viable to try to snipe out Protoss's storms before he used them.
If Warp-in Storm is removed, then please give Protoss back a non-gimped Storm. It used to be we could save up three storms per templar, and each one was at least half-again as strong as the current psionic storm...
On February 27 2011 06:21 Severedevil wrote: Unless I missed something, Psionic Storm was nerfed badly since BW (reduced area and damage) because warp-in + amulet allow Protoss to have many more castings (if they pony up the cash) and made it much less viable to try to snipe out Protoss's storms before he used them.
If Warp-in Storm is removed, then please give Protoss back a non-gimped Storm. It used to be we could save up three storms per templar, and each one was at least half-again as strong as the current psionic storm...
You are missing something. Psionic Storm had its area reduced because units naturally clump more in SC2 than in BW, not because warp-in + amulet. Also, while the duration of the Psionic Storm spell was shortened the DPS was increased, so a storm does the same damage. I believe this was done because units moving more fluidly in the new engine were too easily dodging the storms before significant damage was dealt. These two things are not nerfs, they were basically just trying to make Psionic Storm work well in the new SC2 engine.
On February 27 2011 06:21 Severedevil wrote: Unless I missed something, Psionic Storm was nerfed badly since BW (reduced area and damage) because warp-in + amulet allow Protoss to have many more castings (if they pony up the cash) and made it much less viable to try to snipe out Protoss's storms before he used them.
If Warp-in Storm is removed, then please give Protoss back a non-gimped Storm. It used to be we could save up three storms per templar, and each one was at least half-again as strong as the current psionic storm...
You are missing something. Psionic Storm had its area reduced because units naturally clump more in SC2 than in BW, not because warp-in + amulet. Also, while the duration of the Psionic Storm spell was shortened the DPS was increased, so a storm does the same damage. I believe this was done because units moving more fluidly in the new engine were too easily dodging the storms before significant damage was dealt. These two things are not nerfs, they were basically just trying to make Psionic Storm work well in the new SC2 engine.
Players had to manually declump their units in BW to deal with from Psionic Storm as well, so I don't see the unfairness in expecting the same in SC2.
And no, Psionic Storm did not do only 80 damage per casting in Brood War. The total damage was 112 in Brood War.
I've noticed a few people mentioning the idea of HTs having a defiler-like energy steal from their own units. If they incorporated this instead of the amulet upgrade, I'd be happy. Instant storms would still be greatly reduced, and would require more skill to operate properly.
I'm a toss player, and I'm saddened to see a slight nerf that encourages me to get the most boring of all my goddamn units, the colossus. Neither of the other races HAVE to build a certain unit to win, but it's rapidly looking like Blizzard want protoss v x. matches to revolve around building / preventing colossi.
P.S. I heard Terrans can build fun shit and win (2port opener, fast hellions into mech, Bio play). What happened to Toss having variety? (reavers, DTs, arbiters, archon spells and all this whilst having a BRUTAL high templar storm spell)
Another person made a valid point a while ago. Storm is supposed to counter bio-balls, so why are all the Terran players complaining when, in the late game, Protoss has Colossi and HTs, and they keep making goddamn MM? That makes absolutely no sense to me. The prevailing excuse to this phenomenon is "Oh, Mech simply isn't viable against Toss so we NEED to go bio!"
Well, why not buff Terran Mech instead? I'm being generous with the assumption that Terran players actually have indeed experimented far and wide with various Mech compositions in the lategame and have found no solution, although I am skeptical of this because the masses are always predisposed to whining prematurely. Seems like the philosophy Blizzard has here is, "Oh, Protoss's T3 warp-in storms are too powerful against a T1 Terran composition! Let's nerf storms so that Terran T1 can actually viably go up against Protoss T3 in the lategame!"
That makes absolutely no sense to me. Why should Terran be allowed to constantly go bio all the way into the lategame, then whine when Protoss's T3 storms completely demolish the bioballs? I would be far more welcoming of experimenting with Terran mech buffs than simply nerfing HTs and keeping the late-game one-dimensional by encouraging the continuation of bio-balls vs Protoss T3 rather than encouraging Mech play against late-game Protoss.
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
instead of that i would rather have the ghost version removed and medivacs slightly nerfed
On February 27 2011 06:21 Severedevil wrote: Unless I missed something, Psionic Storm was nerfed badly since BW (reduced area and damage) because warp-in + amulet allow Protoss to have many more castings (if they pony up the cash) and made it much less viable to try to snipe out Protoss's storms before he used them.
If Warp-in Storm is removed, then please give Protoss back a non-gimped Storm. It used to be we could save up three storms per templar, and each one was at least half-again as strong as the current psionic storm...
You are missing something. Psionic Storm had its area reduced because units naturally clump more in SC2 than in BW, not because warp-in + amulet. Also, while the duration of the Psionic Storm spell was shortened the DPS was increased, so a storm does the same damage. I believe this was done because units moving more fluidly in the new engine were too easily dodging the storms before significant damage was dealt. These two things are not nerfs, they were basically just trying to make Psionic Storm work well in the new SC2 engine.
Players had to manually declump their units in BW to deal with from Psionic Storm as well, so I don't see the unfairness in expecting the same in SC2.
And no, Psionic Storm did not do only 80 damage per casting in Brood War. The total damage was 112 in Brood War.
I believe that comparing the statistics directly and saying," PS was nerfed badly to make up for OP upgrades" is underestimating the amount and importance of factors involved.
as i already said and as you said it, i think that the fact they did this clearly shows there is something broken with storm, so why not either reducing the damage of storm,or making it more dodgable.
its a very significant nerf mind you that most pvts that result in ht vs ghost battles the ghost is able to emp most of the hts at some point in time making them entirely useless but hey if you get amulet you can make a couple of hts to have a chance to survive the push that is slowly reaching your base -not anymore
This is a huge nerf, because it delays templar tech even more. Lategame P relies on being able to warp in HTs for defense. For a player admirably intent on sticking with the HT tech, it means that to defend with HTs they have to hold back charged HTs in their base for defense, This will delay the ability of players to incorporate HTs into their pushes by minutes, especially when you factor in the fact that the HTs in the push will have needed to charge before it can begin. HT already takes forever to enter the field -- this nerf is going to make them all but impossible to use and basically spells the end of HT play IMO.
On February 27 2011 05:42 uSnAmplified wrote: I think it needed to be changed, but completely removing it with no compensation is pretty extreme.
If they buffed archons I wouldn't only be fine with this change but love it. I want my archons ;> Harass defense will be harder lategame now too btw. More cannons at each expand + main I guess.
On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote: This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor.
What do you mean, EMP's don't care about armor? EMP only hits shields. EMP's should be irrelevant, shouldn't they? Doesn't that mean upgrades will be even more beneficial, since the only hitpoints being effectively being "used" are the actual life, not shields, so armor applies to the unit completely?
On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote: This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor.
What do you mean, EMP's don't care about armor? EMP only hits shields. EMP's should be irrelevant, shouldn't they? Doesn't that mean upgrades will be even more beneficial, since the only hitpoints being effectively being "used" are the actual life, not shields, so armor applies to the unit completely?
EMP's take away the HT energy, so having armor upgrades does nothing to help the HT do its job if it gets EMP'd`
On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote: This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor.
What do you mean, EMP's don't care about armor? EMP only hits shields. EMP's should be irrelevant, shouldn't they? Doesn't that mean upgrades will be even more beneficial, since the only hitpoints being effectively being "used" are the actual life, not shields, so armor applies to the unit completely?
EMP's take away the HT energy, so having armor upgrades does nothing to help the HT do its job if it gets EMP'd`
Wasn't aware you were talking about HT specifically. I just assumed, as I'm not a P player, that when you go Templar you'd have a much more gateway oriented army, as you'd also eventually get blink/charge sooner (I presume), thus benefitting more from the upgrades.
I think this nerf is fine, no race should be immune to late-game drop tactics with the insta-storm warp-in. Protoss are still able to warp in other gateway units to deal with drops, and they can still have cannons placed to buy time for other reinforcements. Good scouting is always #1 to prevent a drop; nothing annoys me more than seeing some scrubby protoss with poor map awareness warp-in ht+gateway and rape a drop which by all means should have done damage due to poor scouting on the toss's behalf.
On February 27 2011 10:34 soullogik wrote: won't the ghost upgrade be hugely overpowering in late game now.
Ghosts take 45 secs (or somewhere in that region) to build. HT's take 5 secs to warp in..........
Terrans have to plan to have ghosts out for a push timing, or keep them in their base ready to defend..... yes if a ghost pops out of the rax just at the right time it can EMP right away, but it started building the better part of a minute earlier.
If ghosts/infestors didn't have the upgrade, then they would take the build time plus the energy regen time to be ready.... thats a total of 1 minute 30 secs from build command to the spell being ready (in the case of a ghost) as apposed to 49 seconds for a HT. Thats a pretty huge difference.
This is all before you take into account that EMP isn't instant cast and only removes shields and energy, thus can't kill anything.
Have to agree with Jinro tho, perhaps +50% starting energy (63 instead of 50) would be perfect, however instant storms are simply too good, if you warp in your HT in time through good scouting you can still feedback the medivac and either hurt it severely or kill it, meaning warping in 1-2 stalkers at the same time will finish the medivac off before it can drop all its cargo. You could also just have a couple cannons there to hold the attack while you warp in units
A Terran with good control should now be able to guarantee that he will not face a storm, ever. A probing ghost, or a probing medivac with a ghost in it would be able to pick off templars.
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
P couldn't warp in units instantly in BW. If they gave them an energy upgrade, it would just make this change completely pointless, as you'd only have to wait a few seconds.
All this means is that P needs to manage their gas better and make templars earlier. As the maps get bigger, you can definitely warp templars in advance as you see them in the middle of the map.
And this isn't just about PvT, this is PvZ too. When the 2 races are having a near impossible time dealing with a certain unit, that's a red flag.
I just had an idea, maybe they could change the upgrade to one where the HT receives additional energy for each pylon field it is warped in, ie. if you warp in an area with a lot of overlapping power-fields, you have the benefit of more templar energy available for use. This limits the abuse of insta-storms from proxied pylons, and rewards good base planning.
the nerf is too huge, i like the idea jinro had with bw 63mana insstead of 75 then you cant do the instant warp in storm and you dont have to warp in so far ahead and just let them stand there useless...
What people dont get is that when you start production of HT w/o upgrade and Ghost w/ upgrade at the same time, when Ghost is finished in T base and has 75 energy HT is already where is needed and has 72,5 energy. Same with Infestor (I dont remember production time here).
This will balance casters, as Protoss have Warp-In which is basically energy upgrade + teleport.
On February 27 2011 11:56 Sek-Kuar wrote: What people dont get is that when you start production of HT w/o upgrade and Ghost w/ upgrade at the same time, when Ghost is finished in T base and has 75 energy HT is already where is needed and has 72,5 energy. Same with Infestor (I dont remember production time here).
This will balance casters, as Protoss have Warp-In which is basically energy upgrade + teleport.
should probably buff storm dps or increase duration... I really don't mind amulet being removed, but at least compensate toss in some way that doesn't let tiny MM balls take down entire expansions (MM and roach balls being entirely amazing in that respect).
Or fulfill my one wish since beta and give archons "frenzy," so they can't be slowed..
Ghosts take 45 secs (or somewhere in that region) to build. HT's take 5 secs to warp in..........
No, HTs take 55 seconds to build, plus five seconds to warp-in. Thanks, try again.
Yeah and Thor's 250mm Strike Cannons have 8 DPS because it takes 2 sec to set, then 6 sec to deal 500 dmg and then 2 sec to unset and then there is 50 sec cooldown, so its weakest ability in game with 500 dmg over 60 sec...
And thus Thors are weakest units in game and need serious buff.
Seriously guys, start using brain, cooldown after Warp-In affect production rate, but not production time. It takes 5 seconds to make HT.
Something people tend to forget when doing this whole ghosts vs HT discussion is the mineral sink.
Ghosts and HTs are both insanely expensive on gas which leaves a ton of minerals to be spend. Terran has to spend these minerals on marine which are 55 HP vs a 80dmg storm while protoss are spending theirs on zealots which are the best unit vs EMP due to the fact it has so little shield.
Ofc situations vary and you will often see terrans having the gas to spend all of their minerals on marauders due to be on 3 bases mining minerals and 4 mining gas etc.
*Why not just reduce the damage of storm? Or increase the duration of it, but keeping the damage output the same?
Don't know if this has been suggested yet, but why doesn't Blizzard just make Khaydarin the way it was in BW? That is, it increases the maximum energy from 200 to 250 and casters start with 62 energy instead of 50. Hell you could even nix the first part of that. This way templars get an energy boost, yet still aren't able to warp in with storm, but still have less time to get to their first storm.
Why do they have to remove it completely? Did they forget how to balance their game? Why are they so quick to throw up the white flag and essentially admit that they wasted 6+ months of release time having us play with upgrades that they consider to be superfluous?
Ghosts take 45 secs (or somewhere in that region) to build. HT's take 5 secs to warp in..........
No, HTs take 55 seconds to build, plus five seconds to warp-in. Thanks, try again.
Yeah and Thor's 250mm Strike Cannons have 8 DPS because it takes 2 sec to set, then 6 sec to deal 500 dmg and then 2 sec to unset and then there is 50 sec cooldown, so its weakest ability in game with 500 dmg over 60 sec...
And thus Thors are weakest units in game and need serious buff.
Seriously guys, start using brain, cooldown after Warp-In affect production rate, but not production time. It takes 5 seconds to make HT.
By this logic it takes 5 seconds to make all gateway units.
No, they must be "built" by the warpgates in the sense of waiting for the cooldown. Warping them in is extra. As an aside, the warp-in mechanic is a double edged sword: if you are lax in placing units at the end of a cool-down cycle, you lose production time. This is not the case with other production facilities which move on to the next unit in the queue, losing no production time; it is more comparable to missing an inject cycle with Zerg.
Saying Protoss units have a 5 second build time is so imbecilic it's beyond comprehension. Get thee back to bronze, heathen.
I would rather see the starting energy upgrades be converted into energy regen upgrades. Although I dont know if increased regen would break other spellcasters. It's quite possible that it would on certain units.
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
I'm sure Blizzard wishes they could meet this somewhere in the middle, but feels compelled to make the change anyway. If anyone would care to refute my two premises, I'd love to hear your reasons. That the result of this nerf is that
Protoss has extremely mediocre drops: -Stalkers have poor dps and a slow rate of fire. -Zealots cannot even catch workers without charge and the mineral line and buildings hinder them and lower their effective dps as they must move to change targets and cannot focus fire. -Units almost always die
Protoss has extremely mediocre drop protection: -Photon cannons melt to marauders with stim -Gateway units fare poorly against marine/marauder with stim -Protoss army is slowest and usually must stay together.
So Blizzard doesn't think that high tech solutions should be viable against low tech tactics. Fine. Then do they think that only Terran is allowed to have strong drops and the other races just have to sit and take it? What gives?
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
or nerf DPS to like 120 over 8 seconds to make dodging more important. Or maybe that would make bio even more favorable over mech than it is now.
Or, maybe Khaydarin Amulet only gives +25 energy if the unit is warped in from a warp prism. Doesn't make much sense but WPs would be used a lot more.
Ghosts take 45 secs (or somewhere in that region) to build. HT's take 5 secs to warp in..........
No, HTs take 55 seconds to build, plus five seconds to warp-in. Thanks, try again.
Yeah and Thor's 250mm Strike Cannons have 8 DPS because it takes 2 sec to set, then 6 sec to deal 500 dmg and then 2 sec to unset and then there is 50 sec cooldown, so its weakest ability in game with 500 dmg over 60 sec...
And thus Thors are weakest units in game and need serious buff.
Seriously guys, start using brain, cooldown after Warp-In affect production rate, but not production time. It takes 5 seconds to make HT.
By this logic it takes 5 seconds to make all gateway units.
No, they must be "built" by the warpgates in the sense of waiting for the cooldown. Warping them in is extra. As an aside, the warp-in mechanic is a double edged sword: if you are lax in placing units at the end of a cool-down cycle, you lose production time. This is not the case with other production facilities which move on to the next unit in the queue, losing no production time; it is more comparable to missing an inject cycle with Zerg.
Saying Protoss units have a 5 second build time is so imbecilic it's beyond comprehension. Get thee back to bronze, heathen.
Yes by this (correct) logic every gateway unit is made in 5 sec, that is correct. Whenever you spend resources for unit it takes 5 seconds to get what you paid for. So yes, production time for all wyrpgate units is 5 seconds.
T and Z (and non-warpgate P units) have higher production time, for example when you pay for Marauder it takes 30 sec to get it. As opposed to Zealot who takes 5 sec to get since you paid.
By this logic 250mm Strike Cannons also have 50 DPS and not 8, because cooldown is not part of this skill.
By this logic Storm have 20 DPS and not 0,58 DPS, because time required to regenarate 75 energy is not part of this skill.
By this logic Siege Tank has 45 sec production time and not 195 sec, because building SD, Rax and Fac is not part of building ST.
I tryed to say it as easy as possible hope its clear now.
On February 27 2011 12:47 Jerubaal wrote: I'm sure Blizzard wishes they could meet this somewhere in the middle, but feels compelled to make the change anyway. If anyone would care to refute my two premises, I'd love to hear your reasons. That the result of this nerf is that
Protoss has extremely mediocre drops: -Stalkers have poor dps and a slow rate of fire. -Zealots cannot even catch workers without charge and the mineral line and buildings hinder them and lower their effective dps as they must move to change targets and cannot focus fire. -Units almost always die
Protoss has extremely mediocre drop protection: -Photon cannons melt to marauders with stim -Gateway units fare poorly against marine/marauder with stim -Protoss army is slowest and usually must stay together.
So Blizzard doesn't think that high tech solutions should be viable against low tech tactics. Fine. Then do they think that only Terran is allowed to have strong drops and the other races just have to sit and take it? What gives?
The guaranteed zealot hit during charge does a lot to improve their ability to fend off marauder drops and also their ability to engage in big battles without just evaporating before getting any sits in. That was always the most annoying thing when I played P: chargelots just didn't do anything. Now they will.
Ghosts take 45 secs (or somewhere in that region) to build. HT's take 5 secs to warp in..........
No, HTs take 55 seconds to build, plus five seconds to warp-in. Thanks, try again.
Yeah and Thor's 250mm Strike Cannons have 8 DPS because it takes 2 sec to set, then 6 sec to deal 500 dmg and then 2 sec to unset and then there is 50 sec cooldown, so its weakest ability in game with 500 dmg over 60 sec...
And thus Thors are weakest units in game and need serious buff.
Seriously guys, start using brain, cooldown after Warp-In affect production rate, but not production time. It takes 5 seconds to make HT.
Your disregarding the fact that the Thor also has a base attack so their dps would be: ((base attack dps * 50) + (250mm dps * 10))/60
which equates to ((46.9*50) + (50 * 10))/60 = 47.41 dps
So if we compare this to the other t3 units single target dps Collosus: 18.2dps Ultralisk: : 17.4dps
So in no way Thors are the weakest units in game.
You could also argue that the other t3 units can do splash damage but the thor can shoot up and also do infinity dps to a ball of pheonix/mutalisk.
For the first HT you warp in it only takes 5 seconds to make one, sure, but for every HT after that it takes 55 seconds + 5 second warp in time = 60 seconds. And you must remember that when you warp in those first few HTs, you don't even have storm researched, so you basically spent a ridiculous amount of gas on a unit that can only damage units with energy until storm finishes.
On February 27 2011 13:36 lowercase wrote: This thread is too retarded for me. I QUIT! YOU HEAR THAT TL? I QUIT!!!
Im sorry if I made you angry, that wasnt what I wanted. Anyway, see ya.
On February 27 2011 13:28 SpinmovE wrote: For the first HT you warp in it only takes 5 seconds to make one, sure, but for every HT after that it takes 55 seconds + 5 second warp in time = 60 seconds. And you must remember that when you warp in those first few HTs, you don't even have storm researched, so you basically spent a ridiculous amount of gas on a unit that can only damage units with energy until storm finishes.
What you are talking about is production rate. From one warpgate you can create 1 HT per 55 seconds.
But build time is exactly 5 seconds.
Right after you gather 150/150 you can start training Ghost, and after 45 sec you get it. So production time is 45 sec.
Right after you gather 50/150 you warp-in HT and after 5 sec you have it. So 5 sec is production time.
After that there is I believe its 50 sec isnt it? cooldown. Which means that production rate is 1 HT per 55 sec or something.
But whatever this isnt all that important - Important thing is that when HT and Ghost are started to produce at same time, then when ghost is finished - HT has 72,5 energy w/o upgrade and ghost has 75 with upgrade.
So HT has 2,5ene disadvantage, but was teleported anywhere on battlefield.
I don't understand why it is difficult to understand that it takes 5 seconds to build a HT. If you need a HT, you press your gateway bind (or hit w), then you warp in the HT(s), which takes 5 seconds. You then have a 50 second cool down which you can chronoboost, but you still had the initial units in 5 seconds.
However, HT's are not because they can warp in all over the map and wreak damage immediately. You can create HT's whenever you want to, but for infestors and ghosts, you have to build them ahead of the time you choose to use them.
Reinforcement of HT's was too strong I guess in Blizzard's eyes. You can reinforce HT storms immediately with gateways, but you can't really do it with ghosts/infestors since they have to walk a long way.
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
instead of that i would rather have the ghost version removed and medivacs slightly nerfed
while this would be balanced, it would make the match up even more boring than this change would make it if this change makes it to live. they need to leave ht O_O
I Think a lot of Terrans defending this nerf don't understand how sensitive a situation this is for Toss. Yes isnta storms seems a bit harsh, but that was the only use of the ht was to warp in storm and 9/10 times die or get emp'd and be useless for a couple of minutes. Especially with Collosi tech already being the number 1 choice this nerf just pushes us even further down the I have to build Collosi or I lose path which I for one as a toss player am fucking sick of. Here is my suggestion.... Get rid of the dark shrine and have both dark and high templar come from the archives like in sc1 that way it would be more intriguing to Toss players to tech to it and would help create more diversity in the army mix, instead of having just collosi all the time.
Let high templars able to be chronoboosted so their energy goes up faster
Thats a really neat idea, for protoss casters in general. I doubt it'd be balanced at all, but it's certainly interesting enough that it gives protoss something to cboost later on when they're on 3+ bases, and could be tweaked later.
Going templar is simply too volatile now. Templar are SLOW. Slower than any of the core units (stalker/zealot/sentry). Any army can only move as fast as it's slowest unit. So now, you need to build your templars in the back and slow crawl their asses to the front. This means if your army is caught of position, you're done. Gateway units cannot deal with MMM on any reasonable level. If you bring them in a warp prism, you just increased your APM load a lot. You also run the risk of getting your prism sniped by vikings (which almost always are built).
On top of that, you have a huge timing window every time you blow your storms. Fail to win a battle decisively? You better pray you hit him as good as he hit you otherwise you can kiss your expansions good bye. Even a small force of MMM is more than enough to handle gateway warpins. Zealots barely get a hit off and stalkers will never kill a unit being healed.
Basically, if you make a single mistake with templars, you are fucked.
Well your math is impeccable, but your argument has one flaw. Protoss players want the amulet upgrade for the purpose of being able to warp in HT that can cast a storm right away. From what I have seen, during engagements, after a HT's energy has been depleted, it will be turned into an archon. You rarely see protoss players saving spent HT's, and waiting the time to refill them: why bother when you can use resources to warp in new ones (5 seconds + resources for a new one that can storm vs 133 seconds)
This is going to really change PvT. I think DT rushes will become less used as there is simply not a good enough transition to deal with MM or roach hydra. The colossus is now the only real thing that we have to keep us from getting rolled by hydralisks and marine/marauder. It's not that templars will be completely useless, but we will: A: Have to keep one at every expansion to deal with drops, as opposed to warping them in. B: REALLY make effort to spread out our templars when dealing with terran midgame pushes, now we won't be able to recover from that money EMP. (but I predict most will just go for colossus instead) C: have to load up warp prisms with high templars ahead of time.
So, from now on, I will just make many colossi in PvZ and watch zergs cry about it (surprised it wasn't addressed in this patch). And I will concentrate on making a few phoenix in PvT because air superiority will be needed to protect my colossi. Yay colossi!
On February 27 2011 13:48 jester- wrote: I don't understand why it is difficult to understand that it takes 5 seconds to build a HT. If you need a HT, you press your gateway bind (or hit w), then you warp in the HT(s), which takes 5 seconds. You then have a 50 second cool down which you can chronoboost, but you still had the initial units in 5 seconds.
I propose a race:
Lets play a 1v1 and see who wins... you get a ghost, I'll get a HT.. first out wins.
I know I should be less sarcastic, but c'mon. Part of the reason of the HT's potency is what it takes to GET to them, which is more so than ghosts, and, allows a pretty decent window for T while toss techs to HT.
I have a question for terran players. If amulet is put back in, and instead there is a Collosus nerf of similar 'weight' to amulet being removed... will you be as satisfied in the overall powershift?
Rather than taking away the amulet can't we just strengthen other terran strategies?
"We have to go storm to beat Terran bio"
"We have to go bio because we can't beat Protoss with mech"
Surely the obvious answer there is to upgrade the mech part and not weaken the storm part. Of course I don't know what a straight Thor buff or something would do to TvZ but there has to be an answer in there somewhere.
I really like the idea of 63 starting energy and 250 max, drop defense would be fair to simply leave a HT at each expo to gather some energy combined with Zealot/Stalker warpin and cannons for defense, while giving us atleast some time to gather energy for some storm.
I think people are going the wrong way by putting Ghosts and HTs up against eachother, you simply can't do it that way. If your in a fight, and the T gets some brilliant EMPs off, your gateway army will get annihilated by the MMM and you can't really fight back until your newly built HTs have gathered some energy for storms.
You also can't compare to BW cause well, MM didn't crush gateway armies back then.
The real question is, why does Protoss tier 3 need to be nerfed so Terran can go tier 1 >.<
Because Terran works differently; they have 2 major lines of tech, excluding Air which is sort of a third. They have Bio and Mech. Bio is lower, Mech is higher.
Also, T works differently because, unlike Protoss needing a Twilight Council for Gateway upgrades, T needs add-ons, which makes teching easier. Technically Stim and etc. are Tier 1 but within their race they are not.
Also, Medivacs are Tier 3, or 2.5 depending how you look at it. MM with Medivacs is much much less useful, because after a couple stims they're almost dead, and their longetivity is so low that their cost efficiency isn't so great anymore.
The Charge buff will help, because now you will be able to deal with MM with Charge alone instead of now where Charge helps but can't be completely relied on like Colossi or HTs.
So anyways, Tier 3 vs Tier 1 is quite inaccurate and I hope you are just exagerating. After all it's not like the Protoss army is 100% HT/Colossi. Similarly, a MM army is not 100% MM. There are usually medivacs and tanks, and sometimes ghosts/thors/ravens/etc.
Edit: You are talking about drops so the last paragraph doesn't make much sense, but even with MM drops they have a Medivac that comes with it. Also, Bio is mobile and strong in smaller numbers but weak against Protoss lategame in large numbers due to Colossi/HTs. Similar to how Mutalisks need to be used to harass to capitalize their mobility, Bio needs to harass a lot and drop a lot to capitalize on their mobility and strength in small numbers.
On February 27 2011 17:04 TheLink wrote: Rather than taking away the amulet can't we just strengthen other terran strategies?
"We have to go storm to beat Terran bio"
"We have to go bio because we can't beat Protoss with mech"
Surely the obvious answer there is to upgrade the mech part and not weaken the storm part. Of course I don't know what a straight Thor buff or something would do to TvZ but there has to be an answer in there somewhere.
I don't get why people are making this argument. Terran mech is actually awesome and a major headache for any protoss player to deal with. The thor push is still pretty strong even with the scv repair nerf, hellions are just deadly to mineral lines and zealots, tanks make ground sad, thors are pretty good for just straight killing stuff and defending your tanks from phoenix. Plus, banshees are GG if you went for a non-templar build and don't have any cannons built. Terran mech is quite strong vs protoss.
if this goes live its going to make high templar the worst possible tech choice in the game for sure. One of the most gas heavy tech routes in the game for a unit who cannnot attack, is slower than almost all other units in the game and has to wait for 50 seconds to do damage. Who is gonna build this unit?
On February 26 2011 16:06 Ponyo wrote: Now its like having a ghost. Really doesn't seem as powerful lol. Think they should up its energy regen rate. But yea was a needed update, warping in storms was too powerful.
ghosts do have the 25 energy upgrade though allowing them to come out of the barracks and immediatly beable to drop an emp
On February 27 2011 17:34 dark fury wrote: if this goes live its going to make high templar the worst possible tech choice in the game for sure. One of the most gas heavy tech routes in the game for a unit who cannnot attack, is slower than almost all other units in the game and has to wait for 50 seconds to do damage. Who is gonna build this unit?
so frusterating, maybe if we complain enough it wont go live, like when zergs started a huge ruckus because of fungal growth not being able to hit air ( wich was far more minor than this in my opinion)
Templar tech tree is already not used nearly as often as it could be adding this nerf wich just make it not viable for most people as 1 good emp will ensure that the tech path you chose is useless, not everyone has the perfect micro to always keep their ht's spread out to avoid emp's. I was already weary of going high templar simply because of emp i thought it was too strong vs protoss in many cases, now its guaranteed that most people will just stick with collosus builds, how boring.
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
Jinro my terran idol! also that is a great idea 250 energy 63 mana would be totally reasonable and negate insta storms and leave a bigger mana pool for more storms possibly 3 storms from one HT im sold. I also think that taking away yet another upgrade from a protoss building leaves protoss with by far the least upgrades in the game wich means we have the least amount of ways to improve our existing units and that just sucks =(
Terran is so massively overpowered already, so much so that they can afford to build a production structure and actually float it around the map as a high-HP scout because they DON'T NEED IT. Terran tier 1 units are also able to compete against all tier 3 units in the game with upgrades and Medivac support. Let's also not ignore the MULE problem, which allows a down and out Terran with half the harvesters I have to bounce back and nearly win thanks to the insane mining power of these bastards.
Protoss units on the other hand are slower and have less accessible upgrades that take longer to research (Blink/Charge). This is just so they can compete fairly against Terran tier 1. Protoss then requires tier 2 and 3 units in order to survive and potentially win, or else, basically Terran tier 1 + Medivacs will beat them.
So why is it up to Blizzard to assist Terran in maintaining their boring strategy? How about some imagination besides MMM + Ghost (a rare addition in lower leagues)?
On February 27 2011 17:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: @Artanias
Because Terran works differently; they have 2 major lines of tech, excluding Air which is sort of a third. They have Bio and Mech. Bio is lower, Mech is higher.
Also, T works differently because, unlike Protoss needing a Twilight Council for Gateway upgrades, T needs add-ons, which makes teching easier. Technically Stim and etc. are Tier 1 but within their race they are not.
Also, Medivacs are Tier 3, or 2.5 depending how you look at it. MM with Medivacs is much much less useful, because after a couple stims they're almost dead, and their longetivity is so low that their cost efficiency isn't so great anymore.
The Charge buff will help, because now you will be able to deal with MM with Charge alone instead of now where Charge helps but can't be completely relied on like Colossi or HTs.
So anyways, Tier 3 vs Tier 1 is quite inaccurate and I hope you are just exagerating. After all it's not like the Protoss army is 100% HT/Colossi. Similarly, a MM army is not 100% MM. There are usually medivacs and tanks, and sometimes ghosts/thors/ravens/etc.
Edit: You are talking about drops so the last paragraph doesn't make much sense, but even with MM drops they have a Medivac that comes with it. Also, Bio is mobile and strong in smaller numbers but weak against Protoss lategame in large numbers due to Colossi/HTs. Similar to how Mutalisks need to be used to harass to capitalize their mobility, Bio needs to harass a lot and drop a lot to capitalize on their mobility and strength in small numbers.
@ Yoshi Kirishima
Alright then lets say the tier 3 units are the support units. I'd even go so far enough to agreeing that technically, Medivacs are tier 3 which is insane considering how easy they are to get compared to Colossi and HTs
The point still stands that we are building the counter to YOUR unit composition, why does our counter need a nerf then? I mean its not like i complain about mass tanks if i went Stalkers/Colossi.
The charge buff will help, but there is no way we can reliably use that alone to defeat MMM, i've had a mass gateway army with upgrades, charge, force fields and guardian shield get annihilated by my enemy who just went MMM and stimmed his way to victory, guy didn't even have to kite. The dps from stimmed Marines and Marauders combined with Medivacs healing is simply too much to handle without Storm or Colossi, there is no way around that.
And why is no one considering simply going Mech? I might be forgetting a ton of stuff but it seems very few people even consider going this route, a friend of mine has been doing this against me, and i pretty much had to abandon a lot of storms in favor of Mass Chargelots/Immortals, only bringing 3-4 HTs with me just to add a bit of AE to the clumped up tanks, and in this instance it wasn't the storms that were the deciding factor, but the Immortals/Chargelots.
Same thing if you look at the Mvp v Squirtle game, the reason Mvps heavy mech died later on wasn't the storms, it was the Chargelots and the Immortals.
Maybe I'm not high level enough(about low Diamond, granted my bonus pool is gigantic and i keep facing 2800-3000 Diamonds so i figure I'm supposed to be up there) to even talk about this.
You say that Bio needs to be mobile to stay on top of Protoss lategame, just like Mutas for Zerg. The thing is tho Zerg doesn't use Muta/Ling through the entire game, they use the Muta/Ling to gain map control and resources to switch to Brood Lords or Ultras, and use those to finish the game somehow. So if we are to follow that comparison you are basically asking your the Terrans equivalent to Muta/Ling to somehow defeat the Protoss lategame army? Or maybe i am missing something here.
EDIT: Forgot one thing, to people in general: You claim that Storm drops are insane and does a fuckton of damage, well have you ever been on the recieving end of a Blue Flame hellion drop? It is way more effective and not as costly as going for a storm drop. Considering theres a big chance you want that medivac anyway, while a Warp Prism is something Protoss don't always go for, not to mention it mostly has that single use ONLY, harrasment, while a Medivac obviously is used for keeping your MM army alive.
On February 27 2011 17:59 TheGiz wrote: I don't understand this nerf at all.
Terran is so massively overpowered already, so much so that they can afford to build a production structure and actually float it around the map as a high-HP scout because they DON'T NEED IT. Terran tier 1 units are also able to compete against all tier 3 units in the game with upgrades and Medivac support. Let's also not ignore the MULE problem, which allows a down and out Terran with half the harvesters I have to bounce back and nearly win thanks to the insane mining power of these bastards.
Protoss units on the other hand are slower and have less accessible upgrades that take longer to research (Blink/Charge). This is just so they can compete fairly against Terran tier 1. Protoss then requires tier 2 and 3 units in order to survive and potentially win, or else, basically Terran tier 1 + Medivacs will beat them.
So why is it up to Blizzard to assist Terran in maintaining their boring strategy? How about some imagination besides MMM + Ghost (a rare addition in lower leagues)?
I'm a random player, and you're biased.
Point 1: We float the structure cause we need it for the starport, but most of the time choose not to use the units out of it as they are incredibly hard-countered by immortals (robo is common in games), or void rays.
Point 2 : I am pretty sure that Stalkers cost effectively beat BCs, and Zealots cost effectively beat Thors. Protoss has no complaint about their Tier 1, only zerg does as they don't have anti-air although.... Queen cost effectively beat BC, and Zergling or Roach cost effectively beats Thor.
Point 3 : Protoss can chrono-boost probes and gain a worker advantage, which puts them even with a Muled Terran economy. In addition, chrono-boost serves other purposes such as speeding up production of your army (which you failed to mention that Terran is actually terribly slow at doing) or upgrades.
Point 4: Terran Tier 1 + Medviacs is the same as Protoss Tier 1 + Support T2/3 unit. What a ridiculous point. Similarly, Terran Tier 1 + Ghosts is the same as Protoss T1+ Support T2/3 unit.
Point 5: Whilst Blink and Charge are required to beat an upgraded T1 army with only T1 units as P, the Terran T2-3 units are weaker compared to the Protoss equivalents.
Relax, Protoss is actually fine and maybe even overpowered in PvT.
Let high templars able to be chronoboosted so their energy goes up faster
Thats a really neat idea, for protoss casters in general. I doubt it'd be balanced at all, but it's certainly interesting enough that it gives protoss something to cboost later on when they're on 3+ bases, and could be tweaked later.
+1 to chronoboosting high templar to speed up energy gathering, although there's no way this would actually happen
I find it odd that people think that "better reaction time" is a good argument for the templar nerf. It's not a matter of being slow. It's a matter of wasting all your gas way ahead of time when you could be using it on stuff that could actually be immediately useful. "Oh, I see bio! Better get high templar now just in case they attack me in two minutes!" What? In the heat of battle, there is absolutely no reason to get high templar (without the amulet upgrade) because they will be useless for that skirmish. If you're getting attacked, would you rather warp-in units that are useless (high templar) or warp-in units that can actually do damage? It has nothing to do with reaction time.
i'd say the nerf is substantial given that many protoss players rely on the warp-in storm vs terran bio-balls and their mobility between expansions. warp-in storms allow protoss players to defend a bio-terran in the very late stages of the game. this reduces the defense option to mass warp-in zealot/stalker/dt vs for example a triple medivac drop.
the thing i see is that all cryed for imba colosse and just a FEW player played ht, now after ht nerf nearly EVERYONE will play colossi who wasnt nerfed so .. i cant see the reason pushing everyone to use colossi
On February 27 2011 18:25 rS.Sinatra wrote: i'd say the nerf is substantial given that many protoss players rely on the warp-in storm vs terran bio-balls and their mobility between expansions. warp-in storms allow protoss players to defend a bio-terran in the very late stages of the game. this reduces the defense option to mass warp-in zealot/stalker/dt vs for example a triple medivac drop.
the nerf does NOT make sense because it makes one of the most expensive and hardest to get units literary worthless. templar tech costs more gas than pretty much any other tech in the game, high templars are the 3rd slowest unit in the game and they have no physical attack. they have one ability that does considerable damage, but getting enough mana to cast it takes FIFTY SECONDS without the amulet. Noone in their right mind is going to make high templars post-patch, because its the biggest waste of gas you can think of.
On February 26 2011 16:05 avilo wrote: Completely agree with the amulet change. Yes, it's coming from a Terran. But it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many games where protoss can turtle infinitely in the late game versus bio+viking simply because wherever they place a pylon, there is a storm.
This would be like me being able to warp-in ghosts and nukes for defense...great change imo, I'm sure other Terrans are happy about this.
Templar will still be 1 million times effective vs bio, it's just now protoss has to plan just like the rest of us...instead of, "oh, I can warp in and stop you from attacking in 4 places at once."
and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins.
As for the maps though...yeah...
Lol.. "collosus + phoenix + stalker ball" ? Lets see the tech path for that... min 4 gateways, robotics facility and bay... thermal lance. starport. I want to see your effectively get all that in time to counter early mm ball... we have to plan like the rest of you? I have a 90% chance of seeing a standard bio opening from terran which is not in anyway all in because base terran always has MMs and support units later on in the game. You dont even NEED emp to handle hts, we NEED hts, zlot run speed and armor upgrades and we STILL have trouble with your mm balls. Ive went down a HT tech path with zlot speed armor ups sentries for ff and still lost cause a "speed upgrade" has a cooldown time which requires 1 stim and 1 apm move control+A to counter... im done
The problem I think is, that many people don't seem to get the huge differences between storm-tech in SC2 and storm-tech in BW - which is why the amulet was important in the first place:
1.) In BW you could get BOTH DTs and HTs after you've constructed the archives. This means, the gas-investment allowed you also to get some crucial harassment done. Also your opponent never really knows if you will get DTs after all. Really a strong tech. In SC2 however, you are 100% committed to storm, the archives actually has no other use than supporting HTs. 2.) In BW you didn't have to face EMPs so early. In SC2 ghosts are extremely easy to get compared to the vessles in BW.
Both of these storm-tech-"nerfs" were perfectly justified considering that with the super-strong amulet you had something that really made the templar tech worth it. If amulet gets removed for good, then all that remains is a much higher commitment when throwing down the archives (no DTs to make the tech pay for itself beforehand) and a much easier way to counter them compared to BW.
Incontrol also said on his stream, that probably ghosts/EMPs also need a nerf when the amulet gets removed. And I completely agree, now there remains no justification whatsoever for "instant" EMPs when the amulet is gone.
On February 26 2011 16:05 avilo wrote: Completely agree with the amulet change. Yes, it's coming from a Terran. But it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many games where protoss can turtle infinitely in the late game versus bio+viking simply because wherever they place a pylon, there is a storm.
This would be like me being able to warp-in ghosts and nukes for defense...great change imo, I'm sure other Terrans are happy about this.
Templar will still be 1 million times effective vs bio, it's just now protoss has to plan just like the rest of us...instead of, "oh, I can warp in and stop you from attacking in 4 places at once."
and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins.
As for the maps though...yeah...
Lol.. "collosus + phoenix + stalker ball" ? Lets see the tech path for that... min 4 gateways, robotics facility and bay... thermal lance. starport. I want to see your effectively get all that in time to counter early mm ball... we have to plan like the rest of you? I have a 90% chance of seeing a standard bio opening from terran which is not in anyway all in because base terran always has MMs and support units later on in the game. You dont even NEED emp to handle hts, we NEED hts, zlot run speed and armor upgrades and we STILL have trouble with your mm balls. Ive went down a HT tech path with zlot speed armor ups sentries for ff and still lost cause a "speed upgrade" has a cooldown time which requires 1 stim and 1 apm move control+A to counter... im done
All you need to counter early MM Ball is 3 Gate Robo or 1 gate Robo FE depending on how well you can pull it off.
Why would you need a Starport you defend against early MM?. The only time a Protoss will make a Stargate unless they plan on using it for units besides the Phoenix, is when they're up against MMM+ Vikings, so that you can absorb the vikings shots and Damage them as well allowing the colossus to deal out more damage since they live longer.
If you went HT tech with chargelots and sentries to FF and still lost to a sole MMM army, then you obviously didn't micro well enough, or you're leaving out parts from your story.
Well this thread made me run over to the patch notes and im not too happy. Everything else is fine and this is the only problem. Like jinro said HT's do need SOMETHING, not just complete removal of an energy upgrade.
What im mostly worried about, and am already, is this makes it so i go colossus. And by go colossus, i mean go colossus every. single. game. I already feel toss is forced to go colossus every match-up or lose to some degree; this just seals the deal. (Obviously its not always the case, but 9 times out of 10, the first tech you see from a toss is colossus. If its not then its voidray, and then colossus, at least thats how it feels imo.)
The time invested into getting high temps, and now the time invested into getting high temps, storm, and waiting to be able to storm once is just a tad too much.
If you went HT tech with chargelots and sentries to FF and still lost to a sole MMM army, then you obviously didn't micro well enough, or you're leaving out parts from your story.
Mass marauder medievac can actually beat chargelot sentry HT if you micro really well. Storm is not really a hard counter to marauders unless you let them stand there and take the full damage.
On February 27 2011 18:17 bennyaus wrote: Point 2 : I am pretty sure that Stalkers cost effectively beat BCs, and Zealots cost effectively beat Thors. Protoss has no complaint about their Tier 1, only zerg does as they don't have anti-air although.... Queen cost effectively beat BC, and Zergling or Roach cost effectively beats Thor.
Point 4: Terran Tier 1 + Medviacs is the same as Protoss Tier 1 + Support T2/3 unit. What a ridiculous point. Similarly, Terran Tier 1 + Ghosts is the same as Protoss T1+ Support T2/3 unit.
Point 5: Whilst Blink and Charge are required to beat an upgraded T1 army with only T1 units as P, the Terran T2-3 units are weaker compared to the Protoss equivalents.
Point 2: The only place you are correct is the Zerglings cost effectively beating Thors, and the Queens beating BCs only with energy.
Point 4: Maybe the comparison is bad considering the tech trees work differently for the two races. And even if i am to agree that it is the same tech wise, point still stands that the Protoss is building a counter to the army you are producing, not to mention Ghosts can cloak, and if you are worried about observers, bring 2-3 vikings, scan and snipe the damn thing, if he keeps it in the back of his army, Great! They wont be able to spot the cloaked ghosts in time before the HTs are EMP'd. This dynamic simply comes down to who has the best unit control.
I saw a PvT in the GSL where the Terran went for Ghosts, but continually got his shit sniped by blink stalkers, that is just awful unit control and he deserved to get punished for it, its not like we run in a HT alone to storm your army then complain our counter is bad cause it got EMP'd before it could reach the damn target.
Point 5: The funny thing is Blink and Charge actually arent required to beat an upgraded T1 Terran army, if you got Storm or Colossi you don't NEED any of those upgrades, they are just really nice to have as it adds to the effectiveness of your army. However without Storm or Colossi our gateway army simply dies to your MM with stim, charge or not(this could potentially change with the upcoming patch).
Don't wanna comment on Protoss v Terran T2/3 cause its hard to argue exactly what units are what tier for each race.
If you went HT tech with chargelots and sentries to FF and still lost to a sole MMM army, then you obviously didn't micro well enough, or you're leaving out parts from your story.
Mass marauder medievac can actually beat chargelot sentry HT if you micro really well. Storm is not really a hard counter to marauders unless you let them stand there and take the full damage.
He said he used forcefields though, so I'm assuming that the Terran's army would be blocked from retreating/microing/kiting. I've had this done to me on several occasions and done it to terrans as well.
Would be nice if he gave a bit more insight on the engagement he lost.
i think this change is too much. i do not think it'll eventually make it into the patch 1.3. you just can't defend against drops if thats so. temps already have a hard time against emp as it is.
my friend who loves the amulet upgrade is saddened by this but i do not think it makes final patch.
nice numbers i will take your numbers into account.
Maybe they should make it so you get can upgrade and get +23/22 energy. This would mean a HT would warp in at around 73/72 and then you would wait about 2-4 seconds in real time till you can cast a storm.
That means if an opponent see s your HT warping in, he has the time to run his drones immediately. those 2-3 seconds also gives him enough time to notice that something just popped up at his base or whatever and give him enough time to move units.
The point still stands that we are building the counter to YOUR unit composition, why does our counter need a nerf then? I mean its not like i complain about mass tanks if i went Stalkers/Colossi.
Yup it does, but I just want to get it out there that Terran naturally can tech ridiculously fast so their Tiers can't quite be compared to Protoss's.
You say that Bio needs to be mobile to stay on top of Protoss lategame, just like Mutas for Zerg. The thing is tho Zerg doesn't use Muta/Ling through the entire game, they use the Muta/Ling to gain map control and resources to switch to Brood Lords or Ultras, and use those to finish the game somehow. So if we are to follow that comparison you are basically asking your the Terrans equivalent to Muta/Ling to somehow defeat the Protoss lategame army? Or maybe i am missing something here.
True, but just because Zerg doesn't use Muta/Ling through the entire game doesn't mean Terran can't go Bio all game. May be it does suck, it seems like it does suck right now against P unless you have really good apm and can keep up very good harassment and drops, but idk, i don't actually play Terran as my main .
Forgot one thing, to people in general: You claim that Storm drops are insane and does a fuckton of damage, well have you ever been on the recieving end of a Blue Flame hellion drop? It is way more effective and not as costly as going for a storm drop. Considering theres a big chance you want that medivac anyway, while a Warp Prism is something Protoss don't always go for, not to mention it mostly has that single use ONLY, harrasment, while a Medivac obviously is used for keeping your MM army alive.
Omg Blue Flame Hellion drops are so friggin deadly. Soooo friggin deadly. And they can get away too!
Protoss lack the harrassing ability really bad to start with and they srtuggle when harrassed and HT was lie the only viable option Protoss had along with a few chargelots. Without warp in storm it'll be hell to deal with drops and stuff when you know your army is simply shit when not grouped together
Yup it does, but I just want to get it out there that Terran naturally can tech ridiculously fast so their Tiers can't quite be compared to Protoss's.
I agree completely, not much else to say
True, but just because Zerg doesn't use Muta/Ling through the entire game doesn't mean Terran can't go Bio all game. May be it does suck, it seems like it does suck right now against P unless you have really good apm and can keep up very good harassment and drops, but idk, i don't actually play Terran as my main .
Yea you could be right, they are different races after all, just think it seems a bit outrageous that Terran wants the army with mobility and harras possibilities to beat our army that is designed for a straight up fight.
Omg Blue Flame Hellion drops are so friggin deadly. Soooo friggin deadly. And they can get away too!
Seriously can't tell if your being sarcastic or not
Incontrol also said on his stream, that probably ghosts/EMPs also need a nerf when the amulet gets removed. And I completely agree, now there remains no justification whatsoever for "instant" EMPs when the amulet is gone.
I can agree with removing the mobius reactor if amulet is removed. Its only fair.
Incontrol also said on his stream, that probably ghosts/EMPs also need a nerf when the amulet gets removed. And I completely agree, now there remains no justification whatsoever for "instant" EMPs when the amulet is gone.
I can agree with removing the mobius reactor if amulet is removed. Its only fair.
Ghost build time: 40sec. HT time to build and get 75 energy: 44 + 5 = 49sec.
If the ghosts had this upgrade removed, it would take 84 seconds to have an EMP after you start training a ghost. Is that really "only fair"?
I like this change and play random, constantly warping in templar to constant storm an MMM army in an equal skill level game is way too strong. The delicate balance between EMP and storm is incredibly delicate and dynamic, and the fact of the matter was that you could warp in and storm much faster than a terran could get a ghost all the way over to the battle and EMP. I think with this change it will really come down to in game micro rather than easy mode for protoss late game.
Incontrol also said on his stream, that probably ghosts/EMPs also need a nerf when the amulet gets removed. And I completely agree, now there remains no justification whatsoever for "instant" EMPs when the amulet is gone.
I can agree with removing the mobius reactor if amulet is removed. Its only fair.
Ghost build time: 40sec. HT time to build and get 75 energy: 44 + 5 = 49sec.
If the ghosts had this upgrade removed, it would take 84 seconds to have an EMP after you start training a ghost. Is that really "only fair"?
considering the tech investment, it's fair as fuck.
To make this balanced, Ghost actually has to be cheaper. Take EMP off and make it an upgrade. Make Khadryian different as opposed to completely removed (Either up to 250 energy or start with 63). Boom balanced. BW strikes again.
Incontrol also said on his stream, that probably ghosts/EMPs also need a nerf when the amulet gets removed. And I completely agree, now there remains no justification whatsoever for "instant" EMPs when the amulet is gone.
I can agree with removing the mobius reactor if amulet is removed. Its only fair.
Ghost build time: 40sec. HT time to build and get 75 energy: 44 + 5 = 49sec.
If the ghosts had this upgrade removed, it would take 84 seconds to have an EMP after you start training a ghost. Is that really "only fair"?
considering the tech investment, it's fair as fuck.
Snide comments aside, I really think this is the way blizzard is looking at it. Both units take roughly the same amount of time to get their spell out, the other just builds faster and has to regenerate its energy instead. Both are forced to plan and play more proactively instead of just countering the enemy army with an unit that takes 5 seconds to build.
Removing Khydarin might be a good idea, but I think HT starting energy should be slightly higher, like 65, or something like that. Storms would still be viable, but would have to wait 15 seconds before using them.
If this goes through, I'm thinking of making a staging area for HT's in my base and leave them out of my main army while they are getting energy. Works only when you are not in panic mode and have time to wait.
You can think of it as warp in time + 45 secs = new build time for High Templars.
What if your base gets attacked when HT's are chilling at the staging area? Well.. morph to archons I guess.
I'm less for removing the Amulet, and more for just adding a cooldown to Psi Storm upon HT warp-in. This would actually let Blizzard have fun with numbers for future balancing purposes. Heck, we could even go nuts and let HTs warping in from a chrono boosted warp gate have their storm cooldown sped up, but that's just getting complicated.
There's only two places where the amulet matters... defensive reinforcement vs drops or dying units AND head on army collisions. To handle drops, it forces some resource re-allocation away from the main army, specifically:
1) leave that templar there / or phoenixes patrolling to flag down medivacs 2) DTs/zealots for warp in instead
food for thought is: to what extent will the charge upgrade (for hitting fleeing units) reduce the effectiveness of MM in small numbers? maybe that will help
as everyone else here is mentioning, there absolutely needs to be a templar buff of some sort relative to 50 energy. either it costs less to cast or there's a starting energy upgrade.
i'm in favor of keeping the khaydarin amulet, but changing it so that it BRINGS DOWN THE COST of storm from 75 to 60.
you STILL can't warp them in instantly, but in head-on army collisions you should have the same # of storms per templar (i.e. 2-3). of course, this does mean the theoretical maximum number of storms per templar is higher with 3 instead of 2.
and because of the lower cost of cating, EMP becomes less of a big deal and doesn't require a nerf.
On February 28 2011 03:29 SeanH wrote: I'm less for removing the Amulet, and more for just adding a cooldown to Psi Storm upon HT warp-in. This would actually let Blizzard have fun with numbers for future balancing purposes. Heck, we could even go nuts and let HTs warping in from a chrono boosted warp gate have their storm cooldown sped up, but that's just getting complicated.
On February 28 2011 03:28 Siwa wrote: Just have to think more positive.
If this goes through, I'm thinking of making a staging area for HT's in my base and leave them out of my main army while they are getting energy. Works only when you are not in panic mode and have time to wait.
You can think of it as warp in time + 45 secs = new build time for High Templars.
What if your base gets attacked when HT's are chilling at the staging area? Well.. morph to archons I guess.
The problem with this is that it would make it extremely easy for a decent terran to load up a medivac, drop your base, snipe the templar, load up his units and fly away before you can respond. You'd need to have units off the front lines and sitting in your base for the sole purpose of guarding your templar for 44 ingame seconds so that they can use storm once. Morphing them to archons or building several cannons would be a solution I suppose, but it's still a fair amount of resources dedicated to making sure already expensive units(accounting for the cost of the templar, the archives, storm, and the time investment) that may or may not be rendered relatively useless by an EMP.
with no amulet, templar will be terrible. blizzard has already hurt protoss enough with the new maps (slag pits? more like lol pits.) maps aside, I can see where they are coming from wanting to make a change, as protoss tends to be the strongest race in late game, but completely killing one of the power units is too much. they should lower how much energy you get off of amulet. If it was +15 instead of +25 energy, you could warp in, and not have to wait an eternity to storm, but also not immediate. HTs will be like reapers after the nitro pack nerf. basically useless
It's funny how people are still comparing HT with Ghosts when clearly their roles have nothing to do with one another. Have you ever seen a terran have a ghost for defense at his base?
In a zealot HT army, which are the dps units? - HT. Zealots mostly mineral sink and tanking. What about Ghost MMM ? All of them except medivacs.
Which of T or P has drops with potential, and usually do, to doing more damage? Terran --> which means toss needs to be able to defend those in some way or compensate in another.
Stop comparing those two units. If you want races to be balanced you have to look at them as a whole, and those units' roles for the race, not doing pointless comparisons like that. Ghost doesn't have a defensive importance at all, whereas a lot of toss defense aggainst drops rely on wasting minerals on zealots while they die to dropped MM and a HT or two to kill the units in the drop as fast as possible, or they will have a lot of buildings go down really fast.
Terran doesn't have this problem, because you can lift up buildings, stalkers dps suck, zealots can be run away from, and will probably never return to the warp prism when dropped as they are melee and have to run away from safe distance to deal damage, same being with dt's, which are usually warped in to do damage and die. Terrans can and usually drop, do damage, if they see units coming, they pop up, and run away with free damage. How is that fair? It isn't. Thats why the warp in balances it out, since the terran then still does damage, but also pays a price as it should.
In this sense, toss without the amulet is just asking to be freely dropped, with few consequences to the dropper, since the can attack, do some damage and go back with only damage from stim, which will be readily reverted back by the medivacs once they drop the units to their main army again.
I think this change is completely retarded and if this change goes live PvX is going to be a colossifest. Templar is already a difficult and expensive thing to tech up to in PvT since you're forced to get a robo unless you feel like risking a BO loss.
Whats the point of risking such an investment in going Templar, if it takes over half a minute before you can even use them ONCE, then they are spent and you morph them into an Archon, which is a terrible unit. The people comparing the HT with Ghost is really not making a fair comparison, because the actual mechanics of the units are very different, as well as the tech path to get either unit.
I agree that the ability to warp in HTs anywhere on the map is very powerful, and Protoss late game in general is very strong. However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone. A better change would be to either reduce the damage of Psi Storm or reduce the amount of energy gained by the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade to 20 or something. Removing it completely is way overnerfing it.
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
Because other lategame units don't need to sit in your base or in the middle of your army while they construct, during which they're completely vulnerable? You also seem to be overlooking that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, and you have a second to move out before it actually starts doing damage.
has anyone noticed that blizzard's latest policy has become: it's too hard to balance, remove it entirely. >.<
i 100% agree that the amulet should be reverted to its broodwar state (a slight increase in overall starting energy, with maxed energy increased to 250). This gives an incentive to build them early so their energy builds up and we wouldn't have to wait so long to storm once we make them. Though storms were so much more powerful in bw
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
Because other lategame units don't need to sit in your base or in the middle of your army while they construct, during which they're completely vulnerable? You also seem to be overlooking that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, and you have a second to move out before it actually starts doing damage.
That can also be a good thing, since you can always use the HT for a feedback or turn in them into archons if necessary. If you were building ghosts, you'd have nothing.
And please, dont start calling storm weak when obviously its not. Its not even relevant to the argument.
Okay, so warp in storm doesn't just affect drops, now comming from a Terran player here, but, I find it extremely hard to push against a toss lategame. I can out macro, out micro and out play a toss player but I cant push because of the fact that the toss player will have 5 storms waiting for me right when i start to go and im out of EMP energy, because I waste all of it in the battle. Yes I agree that this nerf is a bit harsh, but it is necesarry the lategame TvP is broken right now.
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
That's the most ridiculous argument so far. You have totally disregarded cooldown, and the fact thal all gateway units have the same warp in time, whether they are tier 1 like zealots or tier 3 like dt's or ht's, and that by making Ht's which have a considerable cooldown, not many more units can be produced if needed. Also disregarded how each race works, and how toss needs it to be that way to be able to defend something they can't reciprocate on (terran drops). Also forgotten about how costly and long it is to tech to that unit, and how gas intensive it is, making it hard to make other kinds of gas costly units.
I could also say terrible design is having a race that can go from 100 to 200 in less than 1 minute. But i won't because like you said to each, their own, and for each race they need their powerful aspects to be able to compete with the powerful aspects of the other 2 races.
I could also say that it's terrible design that 1 thor can anyhilate several times its cost in mutas, but i won't because terran needs it that way, and thor was made to counter them. Same with tanks and banes, same with colossus and marines. And same with HT and bio. The stimmed marine and marauder are extreme units, because of their huge dps. They need a good counter, because they wreck havoc really fast as well, and the toss can't afford to dance back and force with their main armies, because the time it takes for that their robotics bay or their nexus wen't down.
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
Because other lategame units don't need to sit in your base or in the middle of your army while they construct, during which they're completely vulnerable? You also seem to be overlooking that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, and you have a second to move out before it actually starts doing damage.
That can also be a good thing, since you can always use the HT for a feedback or turn in them into archons if necessary. If you were building ghosts, you'd have nothing.
And please, dont start calling storm weak when obviously its not. Its not even relevant to the argument.
People seem to be ignoring that it is now almost impossible for a terran to overbuild vikings. So between vikings, a mobile mmm army, and drops, terran is guaranteed map control. If he sees that you are stopping colossus production he has 40-50 more seconds than before to respond to your tech switch. You have invested 1000+ Gas into something that any good player will anticipate and your army will be that much weaker, and get rolled.
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
That's the most ridiculous argument so far. You have totally disregarded cooldown, and the fact thal all gateway units have the same warp in time, whether they are tier 1 like zealots or tier 3 like dt's or ht's, and that by making Ht's which have a considerable cooldown, not many more units can be produced if needed. Also disregarded how each race works, and how toss needs it to be that way to be able to defend something they can't reciprocate on (terran drops). Also forgotten about how costly and long it is to tech to that unit, and how gas intensive it is, making it hard to make other kinds of gas costly units.
I could also say terrible design is having a race that can go from 100 to 200 in less than 1 minute. But i won't because like you said to each, their own, and for each race they need their powerful aspects to be able to compete with the powerful aspects of the other 2 races.
I could also say that it's terrible design that 1 thor can anyhilate several times its cost in mutas, but i won't because terran needs it that way, and thor was made to counter them. Same with tanks and banes, same with colossus and marines. And same with HT and bio. The stimmed marine and marauder are extreme units, because of their huge dps. They need a good counter, because they wreck havoc really fast as well, and the toss can't afford to dance back and force with their main armies, because the time it takes for that their robotics bay or their nexus wen't down.
I'm not disputing that racial identity is a bad thing, but what happens when one such mechanic is clearly too strong? Should we just suck it up on the basis that its a part of the warpgate and hence balanced? I'm not arguing zealots and stalkers are overpowered, or the warpgate mechanic. But lategame protoss clearly is extremely strong right now, and most of that falls on the templar being an extremely easy way to defending from everything. Just because other races have their strong points does not mean imbalance cannot exist.
Protoss do not need 5 second templars to kill bio. Storms will still be there, storms will kill bio, but they will act like any other higher tier unit: you will have to play proactively and use your few units smartly, instead of bruteforcing more and more templars and simply overwhelming your opponent.
The way templars are now is not smart play, its not fun to watch, and it does not make sense from a balance point of view.
Just watched sanZenith vs OGsEnsnare, and marauder drops would have won ensnare the game like 10 times if it wasn't for warp in storms. Protoss turtling will become the norm if this goes live without some kind of tweak.
Also to the above poster, protoss has the weakest low tier units and the fast ones (stalkers) are 100% countered by marauders. Zerg has creep to be mobile when defending against drops, terrans have mm with stim that do well too and without amulet protoss has warpin that do very bad against bio.
I think people will just warp in defensive templars at expos ahead of time... kinda like in brood war where you left 1 or 2 templars in the mineral line if u expected heavy drop play or harassment... only now you dont have to walk their slow ass all the way there :D
On February 28 2011 04:24 karpo wrote: Just watched sanZenith vs OGsEnsnare, and marauder drops would have won ensnare the game like 10 times if it wasn't for warp in storms.
I'd argue that his warp-in DT's were much more effective in sending the marauders packing.
...and about the creep, that's kinda funny. I'd much rather be able to teleport a few roaches to any mineral line of my choosing rather than have my army halfway across the map get a speed bonus running back
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
That's the most ridiculous argument so far. You have totally disregarded cooldown, and the fact thal all gateway units have the same warp in time, whether they are tier 1 like zealots or tier 3 like dt's or ht's, and that by making Ht's which have a considerable cooldown, not many more units can be produced if needed. Also disregarded how each race works, and how toss needs it to be that way to be able to defend something they can't reciprocate on (terran drops). Also forgotten about how costly and long it is to tech to that unit, and how gas intensive it is, making it hard to make other kinds of gas costly units.
I could also say terrible design is having a race that can go from 100 to 200 in less than 1 minute. But i won't because like you said to each, their own, and for each race they need their powerful aspects to be able to compete with the powerful aspects of the other 2 races.
I could also say that it's terrible design that 1 thor can anyhilate several times its cost in mutas, but i won't because terran needs it that way, and thor was made to counter them. Same with tanks and banes, same with colossus and marines. And same with HT and bio. The stimmed marine and marauder are extreme units, because of their huge dps. They need a good counter, because they wreck havoc really fast as well, and the toss can't afford to dance back and force with their main armies, because the time it takes for that their robotics bay or their nexus wen't down.
Protoss do not need 5 second templars to kill bio. Storms will still be there, storms will kill bio, but they will act like any other higher tier unit: you will have to play proactively and use your few units smartly, instead of bruteforcing more and more templars and simply overwhelming your opponent.
The way templars are now is not smart play, its not fun to watch, and it does not make sense from a balance point of view.
exactly. people act like this would break templars when infact their power is exactly the same in the vast majority of scenarios , you just have to play ,plan and manage better.
it increases the skill involved which is a good thing and shuts down a very stupid part of the warpin mechanic (one is storm on demand, other is how it ignores rushdistance early game).
it might be too much so some middle thing (like the bw like upgrade many have suggested) might be a better solution. but the ability to warpin storm whenever wherever needs to go.
I dislike this b/c i thought really late game HT/arcon with collosi was pretty cool, but with this nerf means collosi will reign supreme late game and in AoE concerns for protoss. At least in PvT it took some micro and descision to either feedback ghosts or placing good storms. And for T they had to place good emps, which ment a good protoss would spread his HTs. But for collosi its just boring 1a.
How many times have you heard Artosis go OMG THE STORMS?!!?!?!?! How many times have you heard him say OMG COLLOSI LASERS!
i think storms add more excitement to the game you can tell the bio ball wants to run away from it ect.
So if they are taking it out b/c of it being OP i'd just nerf storm in a way or something, IF that but imo i thought storm was fine.
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
You didnt even get the point. Yes late game units should take long time to build. I have never claimed otherwise. The Warp Gate making the HT gets a 45 second cooldown, plus the 5 seconds it takes to actually takes to warp in. Compare this to the Colossus. It has a 75 second build time, but listen to this; it can actually DO SOMETHING when its done. Meanwhile, your HT is picking flowers in your natural for 40 seconds while waiting for the energy for a single Psi Storm, only to get EMPd when its time to hit the battlefield. Thus making it a ~90 second build time unit that is EXTREMELY fragile and a terrible investment in both time and resources compared with the Colossus. And that is terrible game design
Maybe you could name another unit that takes 90 seconds to "build" that is as fragile as the HT will be if this change goes live?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
The problem is that gateway units SUCK. I'm all for a colossus/HT nerf if gateway units can actually deal with MMM or Roach/Hydra. Right now, if you don't have Tier 3, you lose against a decent sized MM ball. You don't even need medivacs. Medivacs just ensure that you lose like 5 units total.
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
You didnt even get the point. Yes late game units should take long time to build. I have never claimed otherwise. The Warp Gate making the HT gets a 45 second cooldown, plus the 5 seconds it takes to actually takes to warp in.
coincidentally, that's how long it takes a ghost to train and have him somewhere in the field.
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
You didnt even get the point. Yes late game units should take long time to build. I have never claimed otherwise. The Warp Gate making the HT gets a 45 second cooldown, plus the 5 seconds it takes to actually takes to warp in.
coincidentally, that's how long it takes a ghost to train and have him somewhere in the field.
Also please note the respective places a ghost academy and Templar Archives fit into the races respective tech trees. Ghosts come out much much earlier in a game than HT. If protoss could reasonably have HT within 8 minutes I would say yes, its fine that we have to wait 40 seconds after we build them to have a storm ready but as things will stand after the patch, DT's will be the new "warp in defense" of choice imo.
note: I am pretty sure ghosts can be out much before 8 minutes (see TLOwnage where he goes rax>ghost academy by 23 food). Imagine if protoss could have HT at 23 food into the game? I will gladly trade my amulet for that ability.
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
Way to ignore 99% of my post smartass. My point still stands, there is NO CHANCE IN HELL that using HTs instead of Colossus against a heavy bio army is worth the trouble of teching up to a unit that is worthless for 40 seconds on the battlefield.
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
On February 28 2011 04:46 0mar wrote: The problem is that gateway units SUCK. I'm all for a colossus/HT nerf if gateway units can actually deal with MMM or Roach/Hydra. Right now, if you don't have Tier 3, you lose against a decent sized MM ball. You don't even need medivacs. Medivacs just ensure that you lose like 5 units total.
Pretty much this. I guess terran players have never had to fight a full medivac drop in their base with the terrible T1 Protoss units. It basically goes like this: Dedicate half of your army to it, or lose. No matter how many units you warp in (unless you have like 20 warpgates) the marines/marauders can rape them while healing. Normally they don't even lose any units if you send less than 10/12 units at them because those drops are incredibly strong. And then once they kill all your warped in units they can rape any building of their choice in just a couple seconds and fly away again.
If you leave templars sitting in your expansions, it just makes your army that much weaker. Not only in supply but because of the fact that you only have so much gas and allocating it to bases that may not even need it only means the giant terran tank/marine/marauder/thor ball rolls you that much faster.
Warp in storms were pretty much the only thing, short of like ten cannons or 3/4 stalkers + 3/4 zealots chilling in your mineral line that could stop a Terran drop. If you take warp-in storms out, why not make Protoss t1 stronger? I just don't see the rationale behind making us rely solely on t3 units for any effective way to kill the T army and then nerfing the t3 units into oblivion.
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
40 second warpgate cooldown + 5 second warp in time + 44 seconds to build enough energy.
If your warpgate is on a 40sec cooldown, you must've already made a templar at the start. That means you have 2 templars with storm after that time is up. Sorry, but there is no logic behind that argument.
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
40 second warpgate cooldown + 5 second warp in time + 44 seconds to build enough energy.
If your warpgate is on a 40sec cooldown, you must've already made a templar at the start. That means you have 2 templars with storm after that time is up. Sorry, but there is no logic behind that argument.
The baneling also decimates bio armies. In my opinion, the root of this problem is that using ghosts to combat high templars is harder than splitting marines vs banelings; and thus requires whining rather than trying to figure out how else to micro-intensively. + Show Spoiler +
Terrans: "we already need to split against banelings, now we need to micro vs storms too?" Answer: Yes. If you think dealing with storms are bad, for some perspective try playing as zerg and controlling a muta flock around potential thors or any ground unit and siege tanks.
Stimmed bio can avoid storms. Warp-in storms are very effective, yes, but one mis-storm or a well-dodged storm and suddenly Protoss can do nothing to those units until a. his army returns to the base b. another warp cycle. The amount of damage marauders can do in that time is ridiculous as well.
Learn to micro away from storms rather than to whine at their imbalance.
It's a huge hit for protoss but you can still cast feedback as soon as you warp in the templar so I think it is "ok-ish"
Will see soon but protoss will have to be a lot more carefull about their templars and make sure they are really well spread so one ghost don't emp all of them at once. Thats why I think it is good for the game.
On February 28 2011 05:24 Durp wrote: The baneling also decimates bio armies. In my opinion, the root of this problem is that using ghosts to combat high templars is harder than splitting marines vs banelings; and thus requires whining rather than trying to figure out how to beat it.
Stimmed bio can avoid storms. Warp-in storms are very effective, yes, but one mis-storm or a well-dodged storm and suddenly Protoss can do nothing to those units until a. his army returns to the base b. another warp cycle. The amount of damage marauders can do in that time is ridiculous as well.
Learn to micro away from storms rather than to whine at their imbalance.
impossible to fully dodge wellplaced storm, running around means wasted stimtime, running around means less damage and free hits for the P units.
not that it matters. storm is fine. storm evrywhere on demand is not.
if you dont see how flawed storm on warpin is then really you should try to see the game as a whole instead of the limited "man this makes X harder. i call bullshit!" attitude.
if P then suddenly is too weak lategame (which i doubt) without it then sure change stuff around. but the change is good for the game overall no matter how you look at it.
These 'how long does it take to build a templar' arguments are pointless. It takes 5 seconds to warp in a templar. Ok. What you can't disregard, though, is that it does in fact take resources and a warpgate cd to warp in a HT.
Set aside everything as a NON Protoss player, if the Amulet upgrade is the most powerfull upgrade in the game, then how come in 10 games, Protoss would go Colossi in 8 of them against any given opponnent?
How powerfull can the thing be, when the best Toss players in the world rather go Colossi, even if they know their opponnent will get Corruptors and Vikings?
Its a bad change, if anything Blizzard should promote players going Templar path instead of the usual, boring Robo.
Let us all hope bliz decides to stop taking upgrades away and instead makes small changes. I would love amulet to be +50% starting energy so its 63 energy as Jinro mentioned. I prefer that to no upgrade at all.
If bliz did this to BW there would be no irradiate casting on friendly units and there would be no dark swarm.
Epic Nerf. Think of it this way, you THINK it may be 110 + 55 seconds to get a warp in round of high temps with insta-storm, but that's not really, true. It's 110s for the upgrade and 5s for the temps to warp in. Furthermore, an amazing kind of timing push with the Protoss was when you got high templars BEFORE Khaydarin was finished, they got enough energy to storm, and then you warped in storm-able templar with them so you'd effectively have double the storm in that first Templar push.
EVEN worse is the fact that the Templar's defensive utility is pretty much GONE, seeing as yoou'd have to leave valuable, and vulnerable, spellcasters in seemingly random locations in an effort to defend them, while the main bulk of your army is worse for it.
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
40 second warpgate cooldown + 5 second warp in time + 44 seconds to build enough energy.
If your warpgate is on a 40sec cooldown, you must've already made a templar at the start. That means you have 2 templars with storm after that time is up. Sorry, but there is no logic behind that argument.
I enjoy watching people disarm faulty logic. :D
Zealots and stalkers take 0 minutes to build. OP!
Stop trying to use the facade of logic to argue with the reality of protoss mechanics. Assuming you are keeping up on macro the legendary "warp in storm" is a fiction. The reality is that you probably just warped in a full load of stalkers/sentries/zealots and need to wait another 30, 40 seconds before warping in your templars.
And do not compare a templar to other late game units. The reason that it is so "cheap" (50/150 vs. 300/200 of colossus) is because they are not just a glass cannon, they are realistically no more reusable than a baneling. After a HT casts storm its only realistic use in the future is as an archon.
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
40 second warpgate cooldown + 5 second warp in time + 44 seconds to build enough energy.
If your warpgate is on a 40sec cooldown, you must've already made a templar at the start. That means you have 2 templars with storm after that time is up. Sorry, but there is no logic behind that argument.
I enjoy watching people disarm faulty logic. :D
Zealots and stalkers take 0 minutes to build. OP!
Stop trying to use the facade of logic to argue with the reality of protoss mechanics. Assuming you are keeping up on macro the legendary "warp in storm" is a fiction. The reality is that you probably just warped in a full load of stalkers/sentries/zealots and need to wait another 30, 40 seconds before warping in your templars.
And do not compare a templar to other late game units. The reason that it is so "cheap" (50/150 vs. 300/200 of colossus) is because they are not just a glass cannon, they are realistically no more reusable than a baneling. After a HT casts storm its only realistic use in the future is as an archon.
and this is different from infestors and ghosts in what way? and please dont say now "but ghosts shoots!" since that is totally irrelevant and much less powerful then archons.
also who cares about warpgate times or whatever. the problem is that you can instantly have storm anywhere. which is a bad mechanic and makes alot of stuff stupidly easy (and in some rare cases OP).
Its not that Amulet is an OP upgrade. It's that Amulet was the one reason to go HT at all. The fact that ur spending 150 gas on a fragile unit to possibly get one useful AOE effect 30 secs later is not a great investment.
The other option(colossus) can AOE immediately, is infinitely reusable, and deals "guaranteed" damage.
Without amulet, there is zero reason not to go colossus. And now there are zero options for a protoss to transition out of it. As the counter to colossus still counters carrier and mothership.
Protoss matches will revolve around the colossus even more than it does now. One side throwing everything to kill the colo, while the protoss throws everything in front of his opponent's everything to protect the colo.
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
40 second warpgate cooldown + 5 second warp in time + 44 seconds to build enough energy.
If your warpgate is on a 40sec cooldown, you must've already made a templar at the start. That means you have 2 templars with storm after that time is up. Sorry, but there is no logic behind that argument.
I enjoy watching people disarm faulty logic. :D
Zealots and stalkers take 0 minutes to build. OP!
Stop trying to use the facade of logic to argue with the reality of protoss mechanics. Assuming you are keeping up on macro the legendary "warp in storm" is a fiction. The reality is that you probably just warped in a full load of stalkers/sentries/zealots and need to wait another 30, 40 seconds before warping in your templars.
And do not compare a templar to other late game units. The reason that it is so "cheap" (50/150 vs. 300/200 of colossus) is because they are not just a glass cannon, they are realistically no more reusable than a baneling. After a HT casts storm its only realistic use in the future is as an archon.
and this is different from infestors and ghosts in what way? and please dont say now "but ghosts shoots!" since that is totally irrelevant and much less powerful then archons.
also who cares about warpgate times or whatever. the problem is that you can instantly have storm anywhere. which is a bad mechanic and makes alot of stuff stupidly easy (and in some rare cases OP).
Templars are not like ghosts at all, they are like ghosts who's only ability was calling down nukes.
Also, you feedback hawks are hilarious. When was the last time you saw a medivac with even 100 energy on it? Feedback was useful in PvT when you could thrash Thors, and the BC buff will have to be pretty huge for it to be useful again.
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
40 second warpgate cooldown + 5 second warp in time + 44 seconds to build enough energy.
If your warpgate is on a 40sec cooldown, you must've already made a templar at the start. That means you have 2 templars with storm after that time is up. Sorry, but there is no logic behind that argument.
I enjoy watching people disarm faulty logic. :D
Zealots and stalkers take 0 minutes to build. OP!
Stop trying to use the facade of logic to argue with the reality of protoss mechanics. Assuming you are keeping up on macro the legendary "warp in storm" is a fiction. The reality is that you probably just warped in a full load of stalkers/sentries/zealots and need to wait another 30, 40 seconds before warping in your templars.
And do not compare a templar to other late game units. The reason that it is so "cheap" (50/150 vs. 300/200 of colossus) is because they are not just a glass cannon, they are realistically no more reusable than a baneling. After a HT casts storm its only realistic use in the future is as an archon.
and this is different from infestors and ghosts in what way? and please dont say now "but ghosts shoots!" since that is totally irrelevant and much less powerful then archons.
also who cares about warpgate times or whatever. the problem is that you can instantly have storm anywhere. which is a bad mechanic and makes alot of stuff stupidly easy (and in some rare cases OP).
can u stop perpetuating the LIE that protoss can "instantly have storm anywhere", its such a crock of shit and you either know it or are ignorant. first of all its only the first wave that gets created fast (and its not instant its 5 seconds ) becuase warpgate actually have cooldown so the production in the end is the same as any other structure. secondly warping in requires either a pylon wich requires a probe, or a warp prism. IE its basicly a drop mechanic of sorts that every race has in different ways, and since most race drops are unique they both have advantages and disadvantages (terran for example gets a free medic with it making the drop stronger than the supply it carries). and a blueflame hellion drop is not only cheaper but arguably more effective than storm. if storm was so imba with amulet why is 90% of all games when protoss needs aoe based on colossus play? the truth is that amu storm required the terran to actually counter and pay attention instead of 1a with bio the entire fucking game, and to me thats a good thing.
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now?
Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that?
40 second warpgate cooldown + 5 second warp in time + 44 seconds to build enough energy.
If your warpgate is on a 40sec cooldown, you must've already made a templar at the start. That means you have 2 templars with storm after that time is up. Sorry, but there is no logic behind that argument.
I enjoy watching people disarm faulty logic. :D
Zealots and stalkers take 0 minutes to build. OP!
Stop trying to use the facade of logic to argue with the reality of protoss mechanics. Assuming you are keeping up on macro the legendary "warp in storm" is a fiction. The reality is that you probably just warped in a full load of stalkers/sentries/zealots and need to wait another 30, 40 seconds before warping in your templars.
And do not compare a templar to other late game units. The reason that it is so "cheap" (50/150 vs. 300/200 of colossus) is because they are not just a glass cannon, they are realistically no more reusable than a baneling. After a HT casts storm its only realistic use in the future is as an archon.
and this is different from infestors and ghosts in what way? and please dont say now "but ghosts shoots!" since that is totally irrelevant and much less powerful then archons.
also who cares about warpgate times or whatever. the problem is that you can instantly have storm anywhere. which is a bad mechanic and makes alot of stuff stupidly easy (and in some rare cases OP).
Ghosts can run back after you EMP, you can load them into medivacs and escape if your battle doesn't go well. The problem with retreating HT is that they are slow at 1.87 speed. Secondly, retreating as Protoss is usually not an option because of concussive shells + stim. You can lose 10+ units on a retreat because concussive will snare that many units in a decent sized battle. So once the battle starts, you see it through the end because retreating results in the same number of losses for the Protoss player but almost none for the Terran.
Terran should realize how stupid powerful factory units are. You think maruader vs stalker is a joke? Try out thors vs stalkers. A single thor can take out 3 stalkers easy. Thors 3-shot stalkers. Add in some upgrades and a couple SCVs repairing and you can easily take out 7 stalkers. Strike Cannons means you can wipe out the supposed counter in immortals. The biggest thing I fear in late-game PvT is 6-7 Thors backing up an MMM ball. Storm is worthless against thors since it takes more than 5 to kill even one. With some meat in front, such as marauders, zealots are crap. 1on1, an immortal barely beats a thor in a straight up fight. As the battles get bigger, the immortal gets worse because thors fire faster, have longer range and have strike cannons.
Mech is an underappreciated aspect of Terran play. Hell, I don't even see sensor towers in 80% of my PvTs and that thing is a fucking legal map hack. You know why? There's no real pressure to innovate as Terran. MMM works 95% of the time, except when the game drags on to the point where Protoss is fielding two T3 units with full upgrades. I mean, the core composition is at T1.5 against T1.5 counters and Terran can still hang with that. That's how ridiculous PvT can be.
On February 28 2011 05:33 Tyree wrote: Set aside everything as a NON Protoss player, if the Amulet upgrade is the most powerfull upgrade in the game, then how come in 10 games, Protoss would go Colossi in 8 of them against any given opponnent?
How powerfull can the thing be, when the best Toss players in the world rather go Colossi, even if they know their opponnent will get Corruptors and Vikings?
Its a bad change, if anything Blizzard should promote players going Templar path instead of the usual, boring Robo.
There's no way to get storm off 2 gas or even 4 gas and still be safe from any one of the instant-win builds Terran can do. Just getting a single storm out is close to half a geyser in investment before you see any pay-off. And even then, if you don't win engagements decisively, you are super behind because 150/templar gets expensive. Templar really shine when you have 6+ gas supporting it.
The op reminds us that in terms of actualy timing, this is a very small effect. However, the "coolness" of warping in spell casters is totally gone, which makes me a little sad. It doesn't make too much sense to nerf the tech tree that is by far the rarest that protoss have. I'd much rather lose to suddenly getting my entire army stormed, which I can run out of, than having 3 sentries annihilate my entire army with force fields because it makes the toss army twice as efficient.
I don't see why blizzard would make toss even more immobile... wtf blizzard I mean, this makes toss go collosi every single MU. It makes econ harass limited to dts which are costly as fuck for the amount of damage they do. It makes controlling high templar really fucking hard cause ghosts will rape the shit out of a high templar-based toss army.
If blizzard really sticks with this nerf, that's fucked... High templar are the SLOWEST ground units. Taking off the upgrade makes them immobile beyond belief
People who can't see that Instant Storms are Overpowered are slightly retarded. I promotes bad habits and less micro. Zeal/Templar is one of the scariest combos you can face as a terran. Colossus take time to reinforce which is good so they are worth killing. Templar have a basically 0 reinforce timer (Dont BS me with warp in cooldowns if you dont have at least 1 warp in when you need it late game make more than 3 gates). When you can reinforce the strongest AoE spell in the game in such a short time it just doesn't make sense for a balanced game. Now of course this may make templars to weak and might need a little tweaking but they needed to tweak the templar down.
The change is terrible imo because removing storm warp in is just too huge. It might not effect balance that much as toss will probably be fine with just colossi still but it makes the game dumber by lowering versatility.
Not having storm warp in anymore makes templar WAY more vulnerable to EMP. Now only the templars you bring in the beginning of a fight can storm and any reinforcement templars are useless for the fight itself. Templars are already a bit narrow to the point they only see real usage in PvT but now that will be even less. Even worse is that one of the few harass options possible for P, storm dropping, is now no longer an effective tool as you have to wait way too long. I'm fine with a small templar nerf or even a colossi nerf or anything that will make P lategame less imbalanced but just do NOT touch amulet please. It provides for more fun and more possible options instead of being forced to build up a colossus ball all the time.
Balance is one thing but keeping FUN things in the game is even more important.
If storm and amulet are truly that imbalanced just make templar slightly more expensive or even change storm to do damage slightly slower but just don't take away amulet. Instead of taking away fun and good upgrades, get rid of the crap blizzard like the raven upgrades or medivac energy upgrade!
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
That's the most ridiculous argument so far. You have totally disregarded cooldown, and the fact thal all gateway units have the same warp in time, whether they are tier 1 like zealots or tier 3 like dt's or ht's, and that by making Ht's which have a considerable cooldown, not many more units can be produced if needed. Also disregarded how each race works, and how toss needs it to be that way to be able to defend something they can't reciprocate on (terran drops). Also forgotten about how costly and long it is to tech to that unit, and how gas intensive it is, making it hard to make other kinds of gas costly units.
I could also say terrible design is having a race that can go from 100 to 200 in less than 1 minute. But i won't because like you said to each, their own, and for each race they need their powerful aspects to be able to compete with the powerful aspects of the other 2 races.
I could also say that it's terrible design that 1 thor can anyhilate several times its cost in mutas, but i won't because terran needs it that way, and thor was made to counter them. Same with tanks and banes, same with colossus and marines. And same with HT and bio. The stimmed marine and marauder are extreme units, because of their huge dps. They need a good counter, because they wreck havoc really fast as well, and the toss can't afford to dance back and force with their main armies, because the time it takes for that their robotics bay or their nexus wen't down.
I'm not disputing that racial identity is a bad thing, but what happens when one such mechanic is clearly too strong? Should we just suck it up on the basis that its a part of the warpgate and hence balanced? I'm not arguing zealots and stalkers are overpowered, or the warpgate mechanic. But lategame protoss clearly is extremely strong right now, and most of that falls on the templar being an extremely easy way to defending from everything. Just because other races have their strong points does not mean imbalance cannot exist.
Protoss do not need 5 second templars to kill bio. Storms will still be there, storms will kill bio, but they will act like any other higher tier unit: you will have to play proactively and use your few units smartly, instead of bruteforcing more and more templars and simply overwhelming your opponent.
The way templars are now is not smart play, its not fun to watch, and it does not make sense from a balance point of view.
Not fun to watch? Are you serious? Storms are so great to watch, energizes the crowd much better than colossus 1a'ing. I will give you some insight into higher level PvT, maybe you will understand a bit better what the situation is.
The protoss NEEDS to get storms off, or gateway army melts so fast. And how this usually plays out is a standoff between ghosts and templar, each trying to feedback/emp the other. There is an obvious defender's advantage here because they can spread out their units much better. But the amulet upgrade allows protoss to be aggressive. Most if not all high temps will be EMP'ed in the attack, but new ones warped in will have enough energy for storm. Now that this is impossible and defending drops harder, we are likely to see a turtle fest, obviously a pain to watch. So playing "proactively and smartly" is just a euphemism for camping your expos and chokes for 50minutes.
PvT is a balanced match up. Late game currently looks like it favors the templar-tech protoss, but maybe terrans just need to change up and learn new counters instead of staying bio all game. Terrans have whined about phoenix colossus before, but it was eventually figured out without the need of a nerf.
They should've just made all these upgrades improve regeneration rate, instead of being a one time bonus for new units only(which is unlike all other upgrades).
This way toss can still have storm a bit faster(but not instantly), if they upgrade it and keeping templars alive is rewarded.
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote: However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
You didnt even get the point. Yes late game units should take long time to build. I have never claimed otherwise. The Warp Gate making the HT gets a 45 second cooldown, plus the 5 seconds it takes to actually takes to warp in. Compare this to the Colossus. It has a 75 second build time, but listen to this; it can actually DO SOMETHING when its done. Meanwhile, your HT is picking flowers in your natural for 40 seconds while waiting for the energy for a single Psi Storm, only to get EMPd when its time to hit the battlefield. Thus making it a ~90 second build time unit that is EXTREMELY fragile and a terrible investment in both time and resources compared with the Colossus. And that is terrible game design
Maybe you could name another unit that takes 90 seconds to "build" that is as fragile as the HT will be if this change goes live?
Ok i am going to ignore that you said HTs are less useless because they are just going to get insta-EMPd ..
Insta-storm was obviously seen as a problem by Blizzard; they felt it didn't fit with the design they had in mind - but just blanky removing the Amulet and assuming that would fix things is a little underthought. I agree the cooldown plus energy regen rate seems a bit slow to get storm out; there needs to be some form of upgrade. But you are forgetting that the 45 second cool down on the Warp Gate only occurs AFTER you warp in a HT. So there is no cooldown on that initial HT which was the problem with the insta-storm. I agree the regen rate upgrade sounds pretty cool and would have the future benefits like other upgrades..
On February 26 2011 16:06 gdalam wrote: The fact is that the only efficient ways to deal with MM are HTs and Colossi. Colossi are too expensive to just have sitting around your bases to deal with any drops, so HTs are our only real solution to constant Terran harassment. While keeping HTs spread around suspected drop points is doable, it's a bit extreme.
One issue that I haven't seen addressed yet is the movement speed of HTs. The reason that the Amulet is so essential to the Protoss army is that HTs are absurdly slow. We need to be able to warp in our HTs because it just takes too long to run them there.
And on another note, while instant warp ins to storm a mineral line may be a bit much, it really is the only form of Protoss harassment (barring DTs which is countered by a mere turret). It's as difficult for Protoss to keep an eye out for incoming Terran harassment as it is for Terran to watch for HTs at their mineral lines (it's just more forgiving). Why should Terran be immune to keeping an eye out on the minimap?
Of course, none of this addresses the fact that now only a handful of EMPs will completely negate the entire Templar tech tree, as it'll take minutes to be able to Storm after you're EMP'd.
perfectly well stated only thing i could add to this to make everyone happy is for storm not to be a research ghost do not have to research EMP. Sounds like an even trade to me. he is right about harassment, toss has none!
this is a bummer too because I have wanted to ''TRY'' to win games with out colossi HT are a lot more flexible then colossi.
It was completely broken to warp in a templar anywhere on the map and insta storm. I agree with Jinro taking it away completely is a little crazy however the fact remains it's OP to warp in anywhere and insta cast. It needs to be either removed like it is or not as much of an energy buff. Something has to be done.
On February 28 2011 07:28 Sephiros wrote: This change IS absolutely correct and if you think otherwise it's because your skill cap is too low to understand the complex mechanics of balance at high level play.
I've tried a few games just not using templar since I'm kind of unused to colossus based openings. Defending drops is really hard, especially since you're also going to have to less gateways with colossus based opening. I think even without amulet templar is still going to be the tech path of choice, feedback on dropping medivacs is still game-winning. I think the new strategy is going to involve getting templar, taking a 3rd, defending, and then getting colossi.
On February 26 2011 16:06 gdalam wrote: The fact is that the only efficient ways to deal with MM are HTs and Colossi. Colossi are too expensive to just have sitting around your bases to deal with any drops, so HTs are our only real solution to constant Terran harassment. While keeping HTs spread around suspected drop points is doable, it's a bit extreme.
One issue that I haven't seen addressed yet is the movement speed of HTs. The reason that the Amulet is so essential to the Protoss army is that HTs are absurdly slow. We need to be able to warp in our HTs because it just takes too long to run them there.
And on another note, while instant warp ins to storm a mineral line may be a bit much, it really is the only form of Protoss harassment (barring DTs which is countered by a mere turret). It's as difficult for Protoss to keep an eye out for incoming Terran harassment as it is for Terran to watch for HTs at their mineral lines (it's just more forgiving). Why should Terran be immune to keeping an eye out on the minimap?
Of course, none of this addresses the fact that now only a handful of EMPs will completely negate the entire Templar tech tree, as it'll take minutes to be able to Storm after you're EMP'd.
perfectly well stated only thing i could add to this to make everyone happy is for storm not to be a research ghost do not have to research EMP. Sounds like an even trade to me. he is right about harassment, toss has none!
this is a bummer too because I have wanted to ''TRY'' to win games with out colossi HT are a lot more flexible then colossi.
im tired of argueing around in these balance threads so ill just point out one thing.
what does this have to do with storming min lines? you realize the warp prism can load units? how about just loading a templar with energy up and dropping it?
are people really that spoiled by easy mechanics that they forget what their units do or do you guys just complain before thinking for a second how to adapt?
On February 28 2011 07:28 Sephiros wrote: This change IS absolutely correct and if you think otherwise it's because your skill cap is too low to understand the complex mechanics of balance at high level play.
Oh, TL.net, don't ever change...
The best part is when he says "Good Day, sir" at the end. Hahahahaha
It seems blizz only wants collosi to be used, I personally loved to see HT's even though we never see them much, like jinro said at lease make the starting energy a bit more because ur gonna need HT's on the battlefield well before any engagment which will render them useless to warp in
Wait wait, so, If i'm actually high enough level to make a Warp Prism, and actually fly it to one of your expos without getting shot down. After I go into powering mode and wap in 3 High Templar. You have 44.4 Seconds to
A. EMP Stim 1a entire Protoss Army dead, games over. so what if you lose 20 SCV
B. Send 1 Marine and have enough DPS to kill all 3 HT without stimming before 44.4 second is there.
C. Kill the HT with SCV's cause even that would work in 44.4 seconds
D. do nothing for 44.4 seconds and when psi storm is actually casted maybe move the SCV cause Psi storm can't instantly kill 30 probes like blue flame hellions can.
90% of top level players think this change is a joke. I wonder why.
On February 28 2011 07:28 Sephiros wrote: This change IS absolutely correct and if you think otherwise it's because your skill cap is too low to understand the complex mechanics of balance at high level play.
Oh, TL.net, don't ever change...
Hahahahaha Tyler your a good sport with all of this.
I personally would have preferred a Nerf to Warp Gates as opposed to High Templars/Khaydarin Amulet. They don't get nearly enough usage imo, plus they already nerfed storm to begin with. Thirty seconds extra on stimpack research, but then they turn around and nerf both other races casters significantly. I thought that was the reasoning behind the HT trade-off Blizzard implemented. A nerf to storm to compensate for being able to warp in an instant HT to defend an expo/engagement/etc.
On February 28 2011 07:45 NearPerfection wrote: Wait wait, so, If i'm actually high enough level to make a Warp Prism, and actually fly it to one of your expos without getting shot down. After I go into powering mode and wap in 3 High Templar. You have 44.4 Seconds to
A. EMP Stim 1a entire Protoss Army dead, games over. so what if you lose 20 SCV
B. Send 1 Marine and have enough DPS to kill all 3 HT without stimming before 44.4 second is there.
C. Kill the HT with SCV's cause even that would work in 44.4 seconds
90% of top level players think this change is a joke. I wonder why.
you can drop them you dumbass wtf
You dont need to warp them in. ITS A WARP PRISM NOT JUST A FLOATING PYLON.
On February 28 2011 07:45 NearPerfection wrote: Wait wait, so, If i'm actually high enough level to make a Warp Prism, and actually fly it to one of your expos without getting shot down. After I go into powering mode and wap in 3 High Templar. You have 44.4 Seconds to
A. EMP Stim 1a entire Protoss Army dead, games over. so what if you lose 20 SCV
B. Send 1 Marine and have enough DPS to kill all 3 HT without stimming before 44.4 second is there.
C. Kill the HT with SCV's cause even that would work in 44.4 seconds
90% of top level players think this change is a joke. I wonder why.
you can drop them you dumbass wtf
You dont need to warp them in. ITS A WARP PRISM NOT JUST A FLOATING PYLON.
I play you on ladder get more skill and stop being so baised.
On February 28 2011 07:45 NearPerfection wrote: Wait wait, so, If i'm actually high enough level to make a Warp Prism, and actually fly it to one of your expos without getting shot down. After I go into powering mode and wap in 3 High Templar. You have 44.4 Seconds to
A. EMP Stim 1a entire Protoss Army dead, games over. so what if you lose 20 SCV
B. Send 1 Marine and have enough DPS to kill all 3 HT without stimming before 44.4 second is there.
C. Kill the HT with SCV's cause even that would work in 44.4 seconds
90% of top level players think this change is a joke. I wonder why.
you can drop them you dumbass wtf
You dont need to warp them in. ITS A WARP PRISM NOT JUST A FLOATING PYLON.
I play you on ladder get more skill and stop being so baised.
I think you have me confused with someone else, and besides I dont give a shit about this from a terrans perspective anyway because I mech and Templars dont do shit against me =) You still are an idiot for not realizing you can drop templars with your warp prism rofl
your from clan tQ aren't you? Back up your claims with facts, and even then you don't play at a high enough skill level to say anything about balance. No shit you can load up a 200 mineral warp prism with 150 minerals 450 gas before amulet is finished, I do it all the time.
But to think I should have the foresight to know exactly when your about to attack or your vikings are not patrolling makes this game alot more random Herp Derp i lost the game cause my 350/450 resource harassment took 120 damage. Herp Derp.
Harassing before khadarin amulet is very risky, as it is, to say that Terran should be that heavily rewarded at every single stage of the game for taking out a warp prism is just stupid talk.
On February 28 2011 07:58 NearPerfection wrote: your from clan tQ aren't you? Back up your claims with facts, and even then you don't play at a high enough skill level to say anything about balance. No shit you can load up a 200 mineral warp prism with 150 minerals 450 gas before amulet is finished, I do it all the time.
But to think I should have the foresight to know exactly when your about to attack or your vikings are not patrolling makes this game alot more random Herp Derp i lost the game cause my 350/450 resource harassment took 120 damage. Herp Derp.
Harassing before khadarin amulet is very risky, as it is, to say that Terran should be that heavily rewarded at every single stage of the game for taking out a warp prism is just stupid talk.
I know its risky, but you made it sound as if it were your only option, you can load it up and go harass, and you know nothing about my skill level especially my tvp =). What skill level do I need to be at to critique balance or great protoss player. What skill level are you at? What is YOUR ID on NA?
Anyway, this thread isnt about us but if youd gladly PM me your ID we can continue it.
On February 28 2011 07:58 NearPerfection wrote: your from clan tQ aren't you? Back up your claims with facts, and even then you don't play at a high enough skill level to say anything about balance. No shit you can load up a 200 mineral warp prism with 150 minerals 450 gas before amulet is finished, I do it all the time.
But to think I should have the foresight to know exactly when your about to attack or your vikings are not patrolling makes this game alot more random Herp Derp i lost the game cause my 350/450 resource harassment took 120 damage. Herp Derp.
Harassing before khadarin amulet is very risky, as it is, to say that Terran should be that heavily rewarded at every single stage of the game for taking out a warp prism is just stupid talk.
I know its risky, but you made it sound as if it were your only option, you can load it up and go harass, and you know nothing about my skill level especially my tvp =). What skill level do I need to be at to critique balance or great protoss player. What skill level are you at? What is YOUR ID on NA?
Anyway, this thread isnt about us but if youd gladly PM me your ID we can continue it.
I don't want to spend more time unproductively, just making fun the OP, Even if Khadarian amulet gave 73 energy on warp in instead of 75 its still a bad change. April fools joke over a month early.
Guys you don't understand. Khaydarin amulet lets you warp in INSTANT STORMS, ANYWHERE ON THE MAP, FOR FREE, INSTANTLY! This one time, I was playing tvp and a guy researched it. He then warped in 200/200 food of templars and covered the ENTIRE MAP (except for his main and nat) with storms. All of my worker lines died and so did my WHOLE ARMY. I was left with 0/200, never had a chance to EMP, and he proceeded to laugh at me and make fun of my mom's colon cancer. I forgot to save the replay though. I'm glad they made this change, it was getting out of hand. If you don't support this change you are a rapist and have no higher than 83 IQ.
Phoenix openings and phoenix+colossus+blink stalker play hasn't been fully explored, maybe that will be the substitute at high levels. At sub-masters nobody really drops intelligently and colossus+gateway units vs a terran that never drops or does so poorly make it much easier for toss. Every time I see phoenix+colossus in GSL they go way overboard in phoenixes, don't get enough stalkers, and get crushed by mass viking+marauder though, I don't know how this will turn out.
44 seconds is an eternity in game time to wait for the first storm. Bio will own again and matchup diversity will be diminished. Some sort of nerf is needed for late game but this is too much.
my whole pvt was based around storm and this completely deters me from going HT instead of colossus.. but I think colossei are pretty terrible in pvt comparably. It's unfortunate that the gold level complaining on the blizzard terran forums forced them to make this decision because IMO it's completely gamebreaking. No longer can I deal with double drops in the late game that are meant to snipe nexus's. Just because the diamond terran on the blizzard forums aren't smart enough to use ghosts doesn't justify this huge nerf.
Blizzard have a system they use when they want to nerf or buff something. They roll a dice.If they get a 3 or lower,it's a nerf. 5 or higher it's a buff.
"HT got nerfed because storm harassment is op!" Yes and blue flame hellion/banshee costs more and does less damage /trollface.
Doesn't EMP do more damage than storm(to protoss units) and its instant and also counters HT storm?
Even Fungal does more dps now I think, and infestors can cast it without waiting.
On February 28 2011 08:37 ExoD wrote: Blizzard have a system they use when they want to nerf or buff something. They roll a dice.If they get a 3 or lower,it's a nerf. 5 or higher it's a buff.
"HT got nerfed because storm harassment is op!" Yes and blue flame hellion/banshee costs more and does less damage /trollface.
Doesn't EMP do more damage than storm(to protoss units) and its instant and also counters HT storm?
Even Fungal does more dps now I think, and infestors can cast it without waiting.
u for real? lol
anyways, lets see how the change impacts PTR, even tho noone is like ever on it, im sure something will change before it hits live, even tho as zerg i think HT lategame vs T was too sttrong
ht late game was only too strong if the terran player stays on bio all game long, a tier 3 unit should be able to beat a tier 1 unit any day, and any terran that complained about HT being too powerful late game clearly sticks with bio all game long. i think with the amount of time that it takes for a Ht to storm after it warps in is way to long, Ht drops are a good way of harassing the terran player late game, and with a player with good map vision will see the drop coming and react in time even with the upgrade.
im actually very curious what protoss will do late game now against terran, as Hts were the transition out of colli due to the viking ball being to easy to mass once they scout colli. it might go into heavy immortal speed zealot with sentry play since you have the extra gas from not using the Hts, or heavy pheonix colli play, where you have more pheonix than vikings and lift up seige tanks. since not to many people will get Hts if this patch goes live. I believe the OP said it takes around 44.4 seconds of game seconds which is around 30 or so seconds in real time, which is way to long of a time for being able to use HTs effectively, you might see protoss having to be more agressive all game long in order to keep the bio ball smaller and keep the armies smaller, in order to utilize the synergy of the gateway units.
my personal opinion is disagree with this change from blizzard, i think removing the upgrade and adding a energy regen increase upgrade in place where it would take 10-15 seconds to warp in new templar to storm, or put a cooldown on storm when first warped in for a 10 second cooldown, i mean that would of been a much better idea, then you cant just warp in units and storm them right away you have some time to react to a storm drop, heck even a 5 second real time cooldown SHOULD be enough time for someone to check their mini map and react to it.
even after all this talk about storm and HT being OP, i find it kinda funny cause i think back to beta where people thought storm was too weak and needed to be buffed and then it got even more nerfed, and people still complained about it being to weak, and nothing has changed since then with the unit, yet now it is too strong,
i honestly dont think HTs would be very strong if terrans would transition out of bio into something else, and i think the best thing would be blue flame hellions for late game, once the protoss gets out of colli, just trade the marines for blue flame hellions and that deals with zealots and HTs, and give you mobility for harassment, since the protoss army has to be a ball. throw in some maruaders for anything else on the ground.
On February 28 2011 07:58 NearPerfection wrote: your from clan tQ aren't you? Back up your claims with facts, and even then you don't play at a high enough skill level to say anything about balance. No shit you can load up a 200 mineral warp prism with 150 minerals 450 gas before amulet is finished, I do it all the time.
But to think I should have the foresight to know exactly when your about to attack or your vikings are not patrolling makes this game alot more random Herp Derp i lost the game cause my 350/450 resource harassment took 120 damage. Herp Derp.
Harassing before khadarin amulet is very risky, as it is, to say that Terran should be that heavily rewarded at every single stage of the game for taking out a warp prism is just stupid talk.
I know its risky, but you made it sound as if it were your only option, you can load it up and go harass, and you know nothing about my skill level especially my tvp =). What skill level do I need to be at to critique balance or great protoss player. What skill level are you at? What is YOUR ID on NA?
Anyway, this thread isnt about us but if youd gladly PM me your ID we can continue it.
edit OHHHHHHHH
You are Perfect.
:|
HAHAHAHAHAHA. delicious protoss tears. protoss not wanting any risk in loading a drop? herp derp. what if there's a templar right at the ridge ready to 1 shot my medivac with feedback?! IM SUPPOSE TO LOSE 500minerals/100gas for nothing!? lololololol
I just think it's funny how HT is the strongest caster. Cheapest caster (at 50/150) can warp in anywhere in 7 seconds, and deal instant death to a 30-50+ supply army with only 2-4 supply on two storms.
Ghosts? 150/150, plus 100/100 for upgrade, plus 45 seconds to build, then travel time, then EMP has to hit well.
Infestors 100/150, 100/100 upgrade (I think), 45-50 second build time, then travel time, then travel time for FG.
On February 28 2011 10:09 iAmJeffReY wrote: I just think it's funny how HT is the strongest caster. Cheapest caster (at 50/150) can warp in anywhere in 7 seconds, and deal instant death to a 30-50+ supply army with only 2-4 supply on two storms.
Ghosts? 150/150, plus 100/100 for upgrade, plus 45 seconds to build, then travel time, then EMP has to hit well.
Infestors 100/150, 100/100 upgrade (I think), 45-50 second build time, then travel time, then travel time for FG.
HT is just the most simple caster to use.
/rant.
You forgot about turning them into Archons to soak damage too after they've used all their energy. What does a ghost / infestor usually do after it has casted its spells? IT DIES.
On February 28 2011 07:58 NearPerfection wrote: your from clan tQ aren't you? Back up your claims with facts, and even then you don't play at a high enough skill level to say anything about balance. No shit you can load up a 200 mineral warp prism with 150 minerals 450 gas before amulet is finished, I do it all the time.
But to think I should have the foresight to know exactly when your about to attack or your vikings are not patrolling makes this game alot more random Herp Derp i lost the game cause my 350/450 resource harassment took 120 damage. Herp Derp.
Harassing before khadarin amulet is very risky, as it is, to say that Terran should be that heavily rewarded at every single stage of the game for taking out a warp prism is just stupid talk.
I know its risky, but you made it sound as if it were your only option, you can load it up and go harass, and you know nothing about my skill level especially my tvp =). What skill level do I need to be at to critique balance or great protoss player. What skill level are you at? What is YOUR ID on NA?
Anyway, this thread isnt about us but if youd gladly PM me your ID we can continue it.
edit OHHHHHHHH
You are Perfect.
:|
HAHAHAHAHAHA. delicious protoss tears. protoss not wanting any risk in loading a drop? herp derp. what if there's a templar right at the ridge ready to 1 shot my medivac with feedback?! IM SUPPOSE TO LOSE 500minerals/100gas for nothing!? lololololol
If your medivac has any energy left, you are not one of the terran players I have been playing. Medivacs are always low on energy, because there is always a marine/marauder around with low hp. If that isn't the case you must be producing medivacs off of 2 reactored starports.
EPT
and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins.
![[image loading]](http://art.edoom.de/images/Lustiges/my%20brain%20is%20full%20of%20fuck.jpg)
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