EPTA Bit of Simple Khaydarin Amulet Math - Page 5
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Deja Thoris
South Africa646 Posts
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Zacsafus
England255 Posts
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Buddhist
United States658 Posts
On February 26 2011 19:30 Zacsafus wrote: I would have liked to see them make amulet only apply to gateways instead of warpgates, therefore creating a defenders advantage for protoss, yeah their hts will take a while to build but if you make it less than the 44 seconds to generate the energy for a storm, then a protoss could have insta storms while defending their base but not reinforcing half way across the map with them. It's a little unrealistic to expect people to use gateways when their disadvantages are so monstrous. I honestly don't understand the talk of HTs needing a nerf. HTs aren't very good when you use the proper unit composition. If you're T, just go mass thor vs. a P with HTs. He's going to HAVE to tech switch to either immortals, vrs, or carriers, or he dies. The latter being handled quite nicely by vikings, the former by 250mm cannons or marauders. You can't just go bio and expect to win vs. HTs, that's absurd. | ||
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sharky246
1197 Posts
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Zacsafus
England255 Posts
On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote: How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base. In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range. HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless. Leave a ht in each base? Then move your units there, or build cannons. Its not like zerg or terran have way of instantly reacting to drops if they didnt scout them. All races suffer to drops when they are out of position, collossi have the added bonus of being able to ignore cliffs meaning you can get into your base with them alot quicker. And you still have warp in chargelots, protoss are no exactly useless against drops without hts. I really very rarely get one of my drops shut down by hts, its usually the chargelots which do the trick. | ||
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Buddhist
United States658 Posts
On February 26 2011 19:41 Zacsafus wrote: Leave a ht in each base? Then move your units there, or build cannons. Its not like zerg or terran have way of instantly reacting to drops if they didnt scout them. All races suffer to drops when they are out of position, collossi have the added bonus of being able to ignore cliffs meaning you can get into your base with them alot quicker. And you still have warp in chargelots, protoss are no exactly useless against drops without hts. I really very rarely get one of my drops shut down by hts, its usually the chargelots which do the trick. Although I agree with you that it's reasonable to just leave an HT in position (I actually often leave an HT in my main if I'm afraid of major muta harass), the argument could be made that the toss army is far less mobile than a T or Z army. It's quite common to see a drop held off by a Z very easily with a bunch of speedlings (which can get anywhere on the map basically instantly on creep), or by stim marine/marauder. I also agree that HTs rarely actually hold off drops. It's usually stalkers or chargelots. | ||
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Jayson X
Switzerland2431 Posts
Terrans now of course agree with this change and act like for the past 7 months this was the biggest problem and it's justified to completely remove the upgrade! Since lategame the colossus and voidray alone is of no danger to Terran, by adding just the Vikings they can keep doing their 1-road play. And now the high templar joins the mighty fine club only the two previous tech routes shared before: If you loose your tech units, everything else in your army will melt. Because you cant run away (concussive), you're slower (stim) and you cant stop him (emp). Keeping the Protoss tradition alive -If you attack a Terran, you better be damn sure you win. Because once committed, you cannot pull out - I'm not saying this is the end of the world. But removing insta-storm, and giving terran a 30 seconds later stim...to adress the "Early T strong, Late P strong". Somehow Protoss got slapped twice... | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
Seriously, I think it's a bit ridiculous that to stop a drop you simply had to warp in a unit when you felt like it, now toss has to play like zerg and actually use it's army to stop the drop. OMG SO IMBA! I mean really, any bad player in Bronze league if they can delay themselves long enough to get to the amulet it's a free win. How is that balanced? Now SC2 is based on who can survive the longest or who can hold out the longest? People were saying that if Zerg can hold out the longest they can win, yet we've been proven wrong that even a macro terran can keep up with a zerg. I think the amulet removal is a great change, but I also think that maybe now that amulet is gone, they should make storm non-researchable and allow HT to spawn with it automatically. I also think maybe with this change, that DT shrine should be removed and allow DT and HT to be made with the templar archives like in BW. | ||
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Crahptacular
United States295 Posts
The other major issue with nerfing storm is that it indirectly "buffs" colossi. Obviously the colossi don't get stronger, but they are relatively stronger given that the other splash-y tech tree is nerfed. Avoiding any debate over whether or not colossi themselves are currently balanced, I think it'd be bad if templar tech, which is already less prevalent than colossi, gets completely overshadowed. Whether or not this will happen is presumably what the PTR is for, but assuming it does, I think a slight buff to storm would be in order, e.g. increasing damage and duration (higher total damage, same DPS), making templar tech more potent but more difficult to manage than colossi tech. | ||
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Rhokdar
Denmark240 Posts
On February 26 2011 19:57 Crahptacular wrote: The other major issue with nerfing storm is that it indirectly "buffs" colossi. Obviously the colossi don't get stronger, but they are relatively stronger given that the other splash-y tech tree is nerfed. Avoiding any debate over whether or not colossi themselves are currently balanced, I think it'd be bad if templar tech, which is already less prevalent than colossi, gets completely overshadowed. Whether or not this will happen is presumably what the PTR is for, but assuming it does, I think a slight buff to storm would be in order, e.g. increasing damage and duration (higher total damage, same DPS), making templar tech more potent but more difficult to manage than colossi tech. I dont understand how this is a "buff" to the colossi? They do not get relatively stronger, just because another part of your army is getting nerfed. Marauders wouldnt have gotten a "buff" if, lets say, marines got nerfed.. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
yes maybe P will now have problems lategame (i really doubt it) but its great for the game design overall. having mapwide storm on demand is just stupid and will always be a "problem". it def makes it harder for P to manage HTs. but i would def say this is a good thing. having to plan ahead and using em carefully increases the skill cap for the usually rather bland pvx lategame. ofcourse its a bit sad aswell cause it promotes collosus more which are the most boring and stupid unit in the game. but its a step in the rightdirection. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
2) Protoss defense lategame is very reliant on warp in HT with ready storms, specially vs terran drops and muta harass. 3) This makes EMP stupidly strong, because now not only drains energy, it also "drains" all the time the player had to hold on as the HT were gathering energy for the storms to be ready. So everytime Protoss get's EMP'ed, they will have 0 storms to rely on. In my opinion just a bad decision if it goes live. Hopefully players in PTR will show them not to. | ||
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GQz
Australia168 Posts
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CptFlowers
United States30 Posts
i might as well switch to terran now | ||
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
On February 26 2011 21:38 CptFlowers wrote: the dropships and emps will eat us alive..... i might as well switch to terran now So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!". As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship). /Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps. | ||
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Omgzpwnd
Poland59 Posts
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Crashburn
United States476 Posts
On February 26 2011 21:55 teamamerica wrote: So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!". As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship). /Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps. Don't mass tier 1 and expect it to hold up against protoss tier 3, which takes an incredible amount of time and resources to get to. For the difficulty of getting there, storm was perfectly fine. Storm only looked OP because terrans didn't -- and some still don't -- know how to do anything else but spam MMM. The worst part about this nerf is that it promotes more colossi play, which is the real problem. If I have to mass colossi every game, I'm just not going to bother playing because colossi are incredibly boring units and they're not fun to use anymore. Plus, with the nerf, terran can just blindly mass MMM and sprinkle in reactor'd vikings and win. The most effective strategy I can see with the removal of amulet are one-base colossi timing pushes vs. T. lol, blizz | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On February 26 2011 21:55 teamamerica wrote: So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!". As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship). /Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps. Yes because everything casters say is gold, and truth. They should be playing, because they know so much about the game they could win the players themselves. /s As for the 2nd part of the post. Yes let protoss leave amounts of their army scattered around the base, so that when terrans decide reunite their troops and go for a big push, the toss's army is smaller. Not to mention the toss can't guess if the terran decides to drop with 1 medivac 2 or more. The problem is always that a lot of terrans can't be bothered to go mech, since bio is easier to play and as effective until protoss have decent splash damage, designed precisely to counter mass tier 1 units. Then a lot start complaining because suddenly their army is being countered as it should, and they can't have free reign over the toss's base, and snipe colossus bay in 5s pop in the medivac and go away without loses, or that forge that had an upgrade about to finish. Protoss don't have the luxury of that good harass, since terran have great defenses already. One missile turret, and no more warp prisms will adventure that way, or dt's. One planetary fortress, and no melee harass. What does protoss have? HT with the amulet, all the rest except a lot of blink stalkers always in the base to kill drops before they land, suck. I seriously think a lot of you guys are too spoiled because of all the early advantage and seem to want it not only early but throughout the game. That's another thing that might get some terrans complaining is the shift in power. Terran has always been seen as stronger early game. So suddenly, when that disappears and things get more even, it's easy to mistake that for "they got too strong". No, now you're equal, and this is how it feels to have to make an effort equal to the other player to win. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
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