EPTA Bit of Simple Khaydarin Amulet Math - Page 7
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On February 26 2011 22:34 .syL wrote: hihihi...TLO just played a PvZ vs xlord on his stream and won with templar tech. xlord whines (jokingly) that it's too bad the amulet is not fixed yet to which TLO responds "Fail. I intentionally didn't research it this game :p". Relevant? Maybe not. Amusing? Most certainly. /edit ment PvZ, i need to wake up Thing is though, that both parties need to know that information. xlord ofcourse expected TLO to have it out, so that limits his playstyle to expecting storms to come from everywhere if he isn't careful. That's a huge thing, so you can't really just say "I'm gonna stop researching kayden and see how it is", since the impact will actually be bigger when your opponent know you don't have access to warp-in storms. It's always as fun to listen to people moan about rines/rauders in TvP while they have no issues with going zlot/sentry/stalker. vikings/ghosts/medivacs are our colossi/ht/immos. I don't really like MMM much, but it always frustrates me that toss esp. look down on MMM while their playstyle is for the most part just as predictable and boring. If any t3 unit complimented the MMM aswell as the colossi does z/s/s, I have no doubt that terran would be using it, but they don't. | ||
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ilikeLIONZ
Germany427 Posts
On February 26 2011 23:24 danielsan wrote: Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback, you have the only defensive structure that shoots both air and ground but you still feel it's impossible. I suggest you change the game maybe. @op I was expecting this amulet removal in the other patches as well, it was one of the most obvious game balance issues. have you ever played protoss and got double marauder dropped while your army was way outta position? i wanna see how you defend the drop with the superstrong warpgate units against marauders that get healed and can kite the warpgate units to nirvana. you'll also see your canons melting to marauders. pls try it yourself before you make such a statement. | ||
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danielsan
Romania399 Posts
On February 26 2011 23:28 Wrongspeedy wrote: Troll much? Have you ever watched 16 stimmed marines and 2 dropships go through a base without cannons? He could have 8 gateways and warp in units, if his army was somewhere else he would probably still lose and lose a considerable amount of his base before dealing with only 16 freaking marines. Sprinkle in some Rauders or a Tank and its a much bigger problem that destroys buildings in a heartbeat. Warpgate is mainly use to reinforce armies or sneak units into someone elses base and yeah I guess if you have some cannons you can defend with them too. But all unit producing structures can be used to defend to a certain extent -_-'. So how does T deal with T drops in mirror matchups? So how does Z deal with T drops? So how does T deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping? So how does Z deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping? On February 26 2011 23:36 ilikeLIONZ wrote: have you ever played protoss and got double marauder dropped while your army was way outta position? i wanna see how you defend the drop with the superstrong warpgate units against marauders that get healed and can kite the warpgate units to nirvana. you'll also see your canons melting to marauders. pls try it yourself before you make such a statement. it's never supposed to be easy to deal with drops, read above. | ||
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RyanRushia
United States2748 Posts
and in before people say "oh just have 1-2 templar at each base pre-emptively" that's like 6-10 HT that wouldn't be in your army in a regular engagement... | ||
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ilikeLIONZ
Germany427 Posts
On February 26 2011 23:37 danielsan wrote: 1.So how does T deal with T drops in mirror matchups? 2.So how does Z deal with T drops? 3.So how does T deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping? 4.So how does Z deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping? 1. with Terran units. mirror matches aren't imbalanced! 2. Speedlings(they're really fast if you didn't know that yet), Infestors, Banelings, mutas 3. when the protoss drops, his units won't be healed from the dropship. also gateway units are way less effective than marines/marauders (dps wise). so how do you deal with it? stim and you're there in a few seconds.  4. point 2 and 3 combined edit: i forgot to mention: PLANETARY FORTRESS | ||
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Psychopomp
United States237 Posts
On February 26 2011 23:33 Zarahtra wrote: Thing is though, that both parties need to know that information. xlord ofcourse expected TLO to have it out, so that limits his playstyle to expecting storms to come from everywhere if he isn't careful. That's a huge thing, so you can't really just say "I'm gonna stop researching kayden and see how it is", since the impact will actually be bigger when your opponent know you don't have access to warp-in storms. It's always as fun to listen to people moan about rines/rauders in TvP while they have no issues with going zlot/sentry/stalker. vikings/ghosts/medivacs are our colossi/ht/immos. I don't really like MMM much, but it always frustrates me that toss esp. look down on MMM while their playstyle is for the most part just as predictable and boring. If any t3 unit complimented the MMM aswell as the colossi does z/s/s, I have no doubt that terran would be using it, but they don't. The difference is, we don't have much of a choice. For one, our t1 is absolutely wrecked by Z and T's. In addition, we NEED robo, or we lose to any sort of cloak or burrow play. Protoss needs Colossi or HT's and Sentries, (in addition to expensive, slow upgrades) to deal with masses. This nerf will make one of those even less viable. Protoss will have a mere handful of viable build orders, all revolving around Colossi. Meanwhile, Terran gets tons of choices BLUE FLAME HELLIONS THOR DROPS THOR RUSH MM DROPS TWO THOUSAND STIM TIMING PUSHES (I'm sorry, this gets cut down to a few hundred come 1.3) 2-RAX FE BANSHEE HARASS RAVEN/X/X Ect. ect. The fact of the matter is, KA needed a nerf. Removing it altogether, however, makes Protoss even more predictable. Every Terran and zerg can do their favorite opening into Viking/Corrupter+whatever now, and be safe. Don't bother scouting past the early game. Personally, I'm switching to zerg if this goes through. I already Korean 4-gate every PvP just so I don't have to deal with Colossi wars. Screw getting them every single match up. | ||
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danielsan
Romania399 Posts
On February 26 2011 23:43 ilikeLIONZ wrote: 1. with Terran units. mirror matches aren't imbalanced! 2. Speedlings(they're really fast if you didn't know that yet), Infestors, Banelings, mutas 3. when the protoss drops, his units won't be healed from the dropship. also gateway units are way less effective than marines/marauders (dps wise). so how do you deal with it? stim and you're there in a few seconds. 4. point 2 and 3 combined the point. you missed it. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong748 Posts
I just don't think its a good idea for them to keep taking these researchable things away, makes the gameplay much more linear and boring =/ And of course, I co-sign on Archon being immune to concussive shells, theres no way those things should work on them in the first place. | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
since when was waiting for energy something that was unfair? or having to transition instead of straight up teching to the highest tech something that made your race terrible | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
On February 26 2011 23:39 RyanRushia wrote: in terms of general HT use i don't think its a huge nerf... i thinkt he longerthe game goes the more effect it'll have. if your on 5 base v 5 base pvt or wahtever, some equal late-game, where they are doing 3-4 drops at a time HT have been instrumental in warping in to defend... thats where i think the nerf is going to hurt most and in before people say "oh just have 1-2 templar at each base pre-emptively" that's like 6-10 HT that wouldn't be in your army in a regular engagement... every other race has to prepare for harassment. Protoss had to warp in one unit that could kill of the whole drop instant(feedback) but even if the terran managed to drop you could just storm and be fine. Getting some well placed cannons will deny/limit the drops they can do - i dont see why protoss shouldnt need static defense at all. | ||
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D.Devil
Germany227 Posts
The most obvious one coming to my mind would be to let the upgrade change the energy regeneration rate. If energy regenerated twice as quickly, you would not only have a somewhat reasonable storm-charge time (according to OP's math, ~ 22 seconds) so that HTs don't become entirely 'unreinforcable', but you might also see players occasionally keeping their HTs instead of morphing them to Archons right after storm was cast. Of course, my suggestion isn't perfectly balanced (e.g. maybe it should only be 1.5 times as fast), but it seems like a reasonable alternative to removing Khaydarin Amulet altogether. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
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smacky
United States108 Posts
tho imagine archon collosus drops with mass zealot warp ins at my third now protoss may be getting narrowed but if the pressure is off the robo to make collosus because archons and zealots get more play time then narrowed or not wryly play is sure to follow as stated this change impacts game choices from around the first few minutes from start so entire builds and tactics should result...imo with the new big maps the change makes protoss more like zerg and as soon as archons show up in tourney hard core mass gateways will spread through the ladder like a wildfire with archons and ONE freaking collosus spreading out opponent forces with old school drops | ||
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Alver
United States177 Posts
as far as spectating ht/defiler/vessel is the reason i started watching pro bw again after i quit bw for like 5 years. caster units with super powerful effects and no auto attack were the highest skillcap and most impressive units in the game and id much rather every races casters were buffed than marginalize them and see them occasionally. id rather blizz make terran/zerg t3 equal to protoss tier3 if its that overpowered than increase the effectiveness of tier1 vs tier3 which imo is the worst possible game design. id like to see overall buffs for battlecruiser, carrier and broodlord also, but making/keeping casters powerful is the most important thing to me as a spectator. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On February 26 2011 23:32 Sanguinarius wrote: I think this is a really bad change for protoss, you wont even be able to warp un HTs if you see units coming across the whole map and have a storm ready. so? time it needs for the 25 energy is ~ the time a ghost or infestor needs to be build. i still havent seen a argument against it that cant be solved by more careful and planned play. which given the kinda established opinion of "p has it so easy lategame" doesnt seem bad at all to me. | ||
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Grijzeham
United Kingdom50 Posts
I think the lack of amulet won't affect p's ability to defend terran drops, I mean obviously you won't warp in storms to defend any more but all I see warp in storms as is an excuse for protoss to be bad. Protoss has arguably the best detection in the game (observers) and they're cheap as hell, I see no reason protoss can't get 3 - 4 extra observers to scout potential drop paths (and don't give me the "we need robo for collossus" bullshit, if you need them that badly use the money you save on amulet research to get a second robo for observers and quicker collo reinforcements). if you see a drop warp in either dt's , templar for feedback, stalkers with blink , or just the standard combination of stalker / zealot. any of those should be cabable of handling a drop of 4-8 marauders, if he drops more then that, obviously its gonna be harder to stop, thats only logical and its downright overpowered that protoss is capable of stopping half an army with less then 4 units (not that I'm saying they can, just that some people seem to think that is the case). Oh and you could always make phoenix to snipe drop ships and completely shut down that style of play AND become the harrasser, obviously this has more limited applications then say mutalisks for zerg but still its a start. Where I do think this will have a huge impact is when terran gets emp, before if a terran actually gets emp (rare) and hits all the templar with it (even rarer) protoss could just warp in more storms, making emps almost useless for stopping storm, this won't be the case anymore and since vikings hard counter collossus I would expect p needs to change their style in pvt a little, maybe relying more on immortals / archons or something. | ||
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Suxces
Germany103 Posts
On February 26 2011 23:39 RyanRushia wrote: Getting some well placed cannons will deny/limit the drops they can do - i dont see why protoss shouldnt need static defense at all. cannons dont deny drops, you can't have a minefield of cannons around your whole base, all your tech, all your buildings, around your nexus and around every mineral line... some stimed marauders just fucking kill every building in seconds ^^ | ||
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