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Canada13389 Posts
On February 26 2011 23:55 Antisocialmunky wrote:
I don't understand why they don't just adjust it to like 22/23 energy. That's 5/6 seconds Protoss has to wait and enough time to EMP/focus them.
I know right? Giving the protoss a chance to maybe reinforce would be great. We have to keep in mind that high templar aren't used in vacuum.
When your army is emp'd you need something to push the Terran army back while your army recovers some shields to survive.
I understand that warp in storm is kind of broken when attacking mineral lines but to be honest waiting 45 seconds is a long time. If the Terran is going bio and you get emped and your army starts to melt anywhere near your base you have instantly lost. Protoss can't push a terran back without storm when falling behind.
Less energy great, make storm cost a bit more sure but 45 seconds wait time? long, 20 - 30 seconds I could live with.
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it will definitely make protoss late game easier to harass / counter attack / other abuses that got shut down by HT
as well as MMM vs P will be a lot stronger as they won't get infinite storms on them
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This is a quite some change for the midgame. But i don't feel it makes protoss unplayable as some of the dudes here suggest.
With the KA Upgrade many players would wait to warp in the templars until the upgrade has finished. Now it seems more reasonable to warp in the Templars even before Storm research is finished to build up energy. And without the amulet you'll have one more templar. Now if a enemy makes a timing attack you've certainly got the time to morph archons if needed.
I think we will see more Archons (good!) and players will adopt this.
But the change is bigger for the late game, especially against terran, where you were able to warp in 3 Templars and completely rape the Terran Bio Ball. I felt that KA upgrade was too strong for PvT lategame, though nobody can really say that he has much experience or even routine in the late game yet.
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On February 26 2011 23:51 idonthinksobro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 23:39 RyanRushia wrote:
in terms of general HT use i don't think its a huge nerf... i thinkt he longerthe game goes the more effect it'll have. if your on 5 base v 5 base pvt or wahtever, some equal late-game, where they are doing 3-4 drops at a time HT have been instrumental in warping in to defend... thats where i think the nerf is going to hurt most
and in before people say "oh just have 1-2 templar at each base pre-emptively" that's like 6-10 HT that wouldn't be in your army in a regular engagement... every other race has to prepare for harassment. Protoss had to warp in one unit that could kill of the whole drop instant(feedback) but even if the terran managed to drop you could just storm and be fine. Getting some well placed cannons will deny/limit the drops they can do - i dont see why protoss shouldnt need static defense at all.
Well you can still get a feedback off so thats not changed as far as drops go.
Also it takes more than one Templar to hold off a marauder drop once they have dropped from the medvac. Thats even with cannons there.
Anyway the change isnt in yet, thats the whole point of the test region. I trust blizzard to monitor it the same as they did the fungal growth from the previous PTR patch. Just wish PTR was available in all regions.
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On February 26 2011 16:05 avilo wrote:
Completely agree with the amulet change. Yes, it's coming from a Terran. But it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many games where protoss can turtle infinitely in the late game versus bio+viking simply because wherever they place a pylon, there is a storm.
Yeah, something needed to be done with the warp-in storm mechanic, but I think they implemented it a little sloppily. There could have been better ways to compensate the already underused tech tree (in PvZ / P at least). As is, this is just going to deter many people from using it on the PTR so Blizzard might not get much feedback (pun intended).
Templar will still be 1 million times effective vs bio, it's just now protoss has to plan just like the rest of us...instead of, "oh, I can warp in and stop you from attacking in 4 places at once."
The change deals with the pacing of how templars will be used in match-ups. The issue I'm seeing is that Protoss players have to dump 50/150 now in order to use storm a minute or so later. With the flimsiness of gateway units against a proper MMG composition, this becomes a lot more riskier, whereas the Terran player hasn't had much change on his side of the matchup (in this stage of the game) to compensate for this pacing change.
 and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins. As for the maps though...yeah...
Yeah, but that is boring as hell to play and watch... 
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On February 26 2011 23:45 danielsan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 26 2011 23:43 ilikeLIONZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 23:37 danielsan wrote:On February 26 2011 23:28 Wrongspeedy wrote:On February 26 2011 23:24 danielsan wrote:On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote:
How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless. Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback but you still feel it's impossible. I suggest you change the game maybe. Troll much? Have you ever watched 16 stimmed marines and 2 dropships go through a base without cannons? He could have 8 gateways and warp in units, if his army was somewhere else he would probably still lose and lose a considerable amount of his base before dealing with only 16 freaking marines. Sprinkle in some Rauders or a Tank and its a much bigger problem that destroys buildings in a heartbeat. Warpgate is mainly use to reinforce armies or sneak units into someone elses base and yeah I guess if you have some cannons you can defend with them too. But all unit producing structures can be used to defend to a certain extent -_-'. 1.So how does T deal with T drops in mirror matchups? 2.So how does Z deal with T drops? 3.So how does T deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping? 4.So how does Z deal with P drops, or better yet, drop+ warping? 1. with Terran units. mirror matches aren't imbalanced! 2. Speedlings(they're really fast if you didn't know that yet), Infestors, Banelings, mutas 3. when the protoss drops, his units won't be healed from the dropship. also gateway units are way less effective than marines/marauders (dps wise). so how do you deal with it? stim and you're there in a few seconds.  4. point 2 and 3 combined the point. you missed it.
The troll, you are... mmmmm
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I am interested to see if this might incorporate warp prism play with HTs, theyl have to be carefull not get pwned by vikings tho.
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You also have to be even more carefull for ghosts. If you look away and they get in a few good EMPs on your high templars you will be good as dead. Right now you can, even if they all get EMPd warp in some new. You will still lose a large part of your army but the templars will be there eventually. So yeah I guess the change made ghost way better and forces you to be more active about them ghosts
Edit: on a side note however charge is improved alot. So kiting zelots is not as simple as before, and they will actually do more then only soak the dmg, and I do think it will help alot against drops and small numbers if bio. Just my 2 cent about the drop issue
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Doesnt this mean that ghosts and templars are on about equal grounds now?
Ghosts take ~40sec to build and templars take ~40sec to regen their energy.
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Yes warp in storms were too powerful, but making it so you have to wait 44 seconds in-game time just to be able to cast storm?? This makes it very hard for protosses to experiment with the tech tree, which IMHO is still happening and still needs to happen as Starcraft 2 is still reasonably new and new strategies are being broughtfourth all the rime.
Yes, warp in storms are very powerful as if you see a drop on it's way you can just get a storm there in 5 seconds. But now will we have to wait 44 seconds if we see a drop coming? HT's are our only real viable way to avoid harrass as a "last miniute" decision. Sure we could place cannons everywhere we expect a drop but it eats into other costs.
Let's say that if this patch does go through and HT's are nerfed, Protoss play is hugely based on the colossus. (Im not saying this will happen just an abstract idea) then most play against protoss will be mainly focused on dealing with the colossi. I'm not saying that it's bad, but any match might be very predictable on what composition P is going for. I'm not ranting at all that this is bad and some new viable strategies might come from it, but nerfing the HT lime this is not the answer I think we are looking for.
As many have done before me, I agree strongly with Jinro and the proposed BW style of the HT. Either that or making the storms last longer but keeping damage the same (which would make them just as effective if opponent were not to dodge, but less damage if they did dodge.) As well as. Longer warp in time perhaps, not dramatic, but longer.
Just my two cents on this very heavy change.
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What's the point of referencing research time. The amulet upgrade is to warp in new templar and storm immediately. There is virtually no other use. The OP doesn't address that in the slightest.
Templar builds are universally weak because of the tech window where you get high templar before the amulet upgrade and during the storm upgrade. Before that storm is up your templar are useless. You are also extremely vulnerable to attack since you have just invested in an inactive gas sink.
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I don`t think this will affect most of the P MUs very much - I don`t think the key to protoss imbalance (coming from a toss player) are the different match-ups at all. Protoss is imbalanced within itself - warp-in mechanic balances to weaker gateway units (compared to other low tech units) & sentries. Inneficient low-tech point to stronger tech options. The problem as I see it is in 2 areas (1 being related to the HT nerf)?
1) Protoss lacks good mid-tech. Immortals, v-rays & phoenixes are good - and perhaps will evolve even more - but they always seem to pale to other mid-tech (tanks, banshees, hydras, mutas...) inf terms of effectiveness. This increases the gap low-tier/high-tier even more, colossus specially being way more efficient than any of the units above.
2) Colossus were made too strong because any nerf to them, at the moment, seems to make protoss really fragile in the mid game. This could be changed by a bump on mid tech units (which I don`t believe is the right path - even though they are inneficient as a whole these units have great specific purposes) or a bump on other high tech units.
In this context, the Amulet was a key upgrade - much more important in the mid than the late game where the 44s to charge up a templar will really make a difference in defending. This doesn`t adress the main issue of concern - the Colossus - which sees far more use than the HT, is completely binary in efficiency (either they die or they roast the enemy, very rarely do you see a middle ground) and are probably imbalanced compared to the other races.
Tl;DR Warp-in mechanic generate a gap in efficiency between low tech/high tech toss units. Removing amulet nerfs considerably only the first wave of HTs being warped in - late game they will be pretty much as they are now. We are still left with a somewhat broken race whose plans will be even more centered around the Colossus due to its ability to hold mid game pushes and HTs newly aquired inability to do so.
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Templar archives play in PvT is going to be extremely susceptible to a number of timing pushes from now on. That's all there is to it. Going straight to robo is a must if this gets implemented and storm will be useful only after the protoss went through the mid game with colo and put himself in a good position where those 40 seconds are neglectible.
Other things this will result in;
1. Protoss loses it's strongest form of mineral line harass. Additionally, every other form of mineral line harass is negated by planetary fortress.
2. Protoss will have a much harder time defending drops in late game TvP. Remember, in sc2 dropping as terran is no longer an investment. The drop comes free with the vital medic unit. This in combination with the destructive force of helion/rine vs workers or marauders vs buildings will make drop play that is already extremely cost efficient nothing less than a must do for every smart terran player. I have already seen enough high level protosses lose a clear advantage due to multi-pronged drops sniping vital tech buildings and nexii to know this is going to be very, VERY hard to deal with.
On February 26 2011 15:44 thezergk wrote:
Great job with the math! This is very useful. I'm a Protoss and IMO warp in storm was too powerful so I'm willing to accept the nerf. High Templar will still be useful, just a lot more situational
I completely disagree with you, but I do think your post sums up the results of this nerf perfectly. What most protoss' wants templar to be is an alternative damage dealer to the colossus to create more varied and interesting styles. Colossus or HT are essential parts of any protoss compositions because gateway units simply don't do a whole lot of damage. Buffing gateway units also seems like something close to impossible because it would take fundamental changes to the warpgate mechanic, obviously the last thing we want is the 6.5 min timing increasing in strength.
So basically templar shouldn't be a situational unit. It should be a strong damage dealer to rely on and that doesn't throw you in a ridiculous 3 min timing window where terran can choose to end the game at any point they wish.
It's absurd that blizzard would even think about implementing this at a point where gateway play has only just begun to be used in serious games and terrans probably are a long way from responding to it properly. For one thing, how often do we see terrans using emp to it's full potential in pro games? Not only does emp have further range than storm or feedback but it also just so happens to have the potential to do ridiculous amounts of damage to the protoss ball even disregarding the fact that it can deny storm completely if utilized properly.
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My opinion:
The nerf is not a good idea. There are plenty of other ways to nerf HT/storm if they deem it necessary, but I feel like amulet is the only thing balancing EMP. If a terran player has perfect EMPs, it completely shuts down HTs, and the protoss can't do anything about it (EMP has a longer range than feedback). The amulet gave P a chance for just a couple more storms after their army gets EMP'd to hell, and that's IF the Terran isn't able to EMP them as they warp in, which is something that can happen pretty easily too.
I concede that the amulet was creating problems; I especially think warping storms in right behind a mineral line is a bit crazy. At the very least though, I think there should be some compensation.
Remove the upgrade but buff feedback range to equal EMP so HT's aren't helpless against perfect ghosts. Reduce amount of energy gained by amulet so it's not an instant storm. Use Jinro's suggestion and revert to BW style. Buff Archons. I'd be satisfied with any (not all, of course) of those.
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Is it just me or is protoss broken to hell atm? sanZenith vs Nestea match is all i gotta say like cmon
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I'm really suprised by how many people disagree with this nerf. The nerf mostly affects lategame, where amulet's biggest strength was harrass/defending harass. I admit that longer stim time doesn't make up for lack of amulet, but stronger early-game and weaker late-game is what people wanted in PvT (or is at least what would make the matchup more balanced).
Nonetheless, I feel P should have gotten a buff or some sort.
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What I posted in the patch thread:
+ Show Spoiler +HTs, and colossus for that matter, are a defensive measure against stimmed rax units. That being said, the benfits of HT will just not be enough to compensate for the risk involved in being the first tier 3 tech of a match. If you catch a bad EMP you very well might just be dead, steamrolled by rax, gg- no emergency replacement templars. Why would you ever risk that if colossus can come into a match fulfilling that role immediately and without potentially having that power instantly revoked? Can you see why it may not be fun for a protoss player to feel like he has to go colossus?
My main concern is protoss becoming stale. I don't want colossus to always be the no brainer choice because of how much safer it is- that's boring for us and our opponents.
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On February 27 2011 00:56 Mindflow wrote:
Is it just me or is protoss broken to hell atm? sanZenith vs Nestea match is all i gotta say like cmon
that is a terrible example...
GSL spoilers in spoiler comment
+ Show Spoiler +sanZenith completely outplayed NesTea in that particular game- and it was obviously not a fluke because he dominated all 3 games he played last night... warp-in storm did not play a huge role in that game, as sanZenith's storms were more often than not off-target aside from when he forcefielded those roaches into a box... plus he kept morphing them into archons.
when he used the vortex- he didn't archon toilet, either- so that argument is also very close to holding no water. (heehaw toilet pun)
He used the HT feedback ability more than anything- which even NesTea was acknowledging by how many overseers he made that game (mo-ship).
If anything, sanZenith demonstrated how good HT's can be regardless of storm, even though he did get KA every time. He used many more feedbacks than storms- which HT's will still be able to do upon warp-in.
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On February 27 2011 00:56 Mindflow wrote:
Is it just me or is protoss broken to hell atm? sanZenith vs Nestea match is all i gotta say like cmon
Is it just me or was zerg broken as hell during gsl 1? I mean come on watch fruitdealer destroy all his opponents in it
zerg must have been ridiculously imba then
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On February 26 2011 17:57 travis wrote:
I don't even play anymore but this change is nuts and can't possibly last.
Is it wow?
SC is the best game ever...
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I think this nerf is nuts, but the Templar does need to get a slight nerf but not of this magnitude..
This is just too much
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EPT
