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On February 26 2011 22:11 Crashburn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:55 teamamerica wrote:On February 26 2011 21:38 CptFlowers wrote:
the dropships and emps will eat us alive.....
i might as well switch to terran now So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!". As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship). /Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps. Don't mass tier 1 and expect it to hold up against protoss tier 3, which takes an incredible amount of time and resources to get to. For the difficulty of getting there, storm was perfectly fine. Storm only looked OP because terrans didn't -- and some still don't -- know how to do anything else but spam MMM. The worst part about this nerf is that it promotes more colossi play, which is the real problem. If I have to mass colossi every game, I'm just not going to bother playing because colossi are incredibly boring units and they're not fun to use anymore. Plus, with the nerf, terran can just blindly mass MMM and sprinkle in reactor'd vikings and win. The most effective strategy I can see with the removal of amulet are one-base colossi timing pushes vs. T. lol, blizz
I don't mass MM expecting to win a straight up fight against a Templar based army (unless I have alot of ghosts with gosu emps and vikings to counter your collusi, along with a good amount of medivacs and upgrades). I expect to be able to drop 1400 resources worth of units in your base though, and have them do SOME damage if you didn't notice the drop at all (8marauder + 2 medivac).
Collusi play always was integral. If the Terran is really dedicating himself to a bio push, I think it's fair you should produce collusi (or be like NoNy and be gosu with double forge). I don't expect to hold off a mass gateway push + alot of forcefield without bio in the midgame. You react to what your opponent does - that's SC. If I was going straight for my mech army, you could probably go straight for temps too if you wished.
Late game upgraded MMM+ghost should be decent against mass gateway + templar if you get good EMP's. Then it becomes battle of EMP, forcefield, unit positioning, feedback. That's why collusi + temps are mixed - it forces both vikings and ghosts, and overall just makes it more fun watching the players try to balance all appropriate units. Collusi micro versus vikings is good stuff anyway, trying to snipe a few before you engage.
And to be honest, what is your ideal army without collusi? Pure gateway units (which besides templar are all tier one). Why should your tier one + templars rape my tier one + ghosts and medivacs, to the point that I feel you're saying my MMMG shouldn't even be viable late game.
Just my thoughts on the matter. We'll see how it actually plays out if patch goes retail.
EDIT: Last thoughts, just replying to Apollo.
On February 26 2011 22:23 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 21:55 teamamerica wrote:On February 26 2011 21:38 CptFlowers wrote:
the dropships and emps will eat us alive.....
i might as well switch to terran now So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!". As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship). /Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps. Yes because everything casters say is gold, and truth. They should be playing, because they know so much about the game they could win the players themselves. /s As for the 2nd part of the post. Yes let protoss leave amounts of their army scattered around the base, so that when terrans decide reunite their troops and go for a big push, the toss's army is smaller. Not to mention the toss can't guess if the terran decides to drop with 1 medivac 2 or more. The problem is always that a lot of terrans can't be bothered to go mech, since bio is easier to play and as effective until protoss have decent splash damage, designed precisely to counter mass tier 1 units. Then a lot start complaining because suddenly their army is being countered as it should, and they can't have free reign over the toss's base, and snipe colossus bay in 5s pop in the medivac and go away without loses, or that forge that had an upgrade about to finish. Protoss don't have the luxury of that good harass, since terran have great defenses already. One missile turret, and no more warp prisms will adventure that way, or dt's. One planetary fortress, and no melee harass. What does protoss have? HT with the amulet, all the rest except a lot of blink stalkers always in the base to kill drops before they land, suck. I seriously think a lot of you guys are too spoiled because of all the early advantage and seem to want it not only early but throughout the game. That's another thing that might get some terrans complaining is the shift in power. Terran has always been seen as stronger early game. So suddenly, when that disappears and things get more even, it's easy to mistake that for "they got too strong". No, now you're equal, and this is how it feels to have to make an effort equal to the other player to win.
When I referenced the casters, I also felt the same way myself. And didn't you? When you play P don't you feel pretty great once Amulet finished. IMO, it was a huge shift in the game.
As for leaving parts of your army around your base, it's just leaving a few stalkers. That + feedback on medivacs + a few cannons means GG drop. I put up a few turrets late game to stop DT harass and make those mythical planetary fortress (which besides it's cost - means no OC there).
I don't get where the whole middle part of your post comes from to be honest. One missile turret doesn't stop a warp prism any more then one cannon stops all my drops...must be most gosu placed turret ever! Honestly can't comment though because beside DT drops and HT drops I can't recall a Toss using warp prisms against me aggressively - BUT, as White-Ra has demosntrated, they can be used to great effect.
About sniping a collusi - sure happens sometimes if the Terran is lucky but if the Terran has a medivac full of shit over your robo bay (where do you put it? corner of your base?) where's your army? Shouldn't happen with too often. Early game (one, two base) I don't understand why people keep so much of the army in front of base anyway, instead of in base to defend drops. It's pretty easy to tell when Terran moves his whole main bio group with good scouting (obs?).
Lastly never even complained about Terran early game.
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I think its good, because you need to spawn your HT in the back of your army/base and then let them regen mana until you can use them... just makes it a little bit harder because you need extra macro for them..
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On February 26 2011 22:28 teamamerica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 22:11 Crashburn wrote:On February 26 2011 21:55 teamamerica wrote:On February 26 2011 21:38 CptFlowers wrote:
the dropships and emps will eat us alive.....
i might as well switch to terran now So please do. You'd prolly do ok versus Toss too because you'd understand their timing. But stop acting like Toss late game is completely screwed. It was a little ridiculous to be watching a PvT game and no matter no far ahead the Terran was, the caster would make some remark like: "amulet is about to finish...Terran is screwed now!". As has been iterated in this thread, sure ghosts spawn with EMP energy but it's not exactly like I have barracks in the battlefield spawning ghosts. As for drops, leave a temp in your base and late game you'll be able to warp in 10+ units. Templars still spawn with feedback energy too, so that's still pretty good drop denial (feedback + one stalker shot normally kills dropship). /Rant. Jeez it was so annoying playing against storm temps. Don't mass tier 1 and expect it to hold up against protoss tier 3, which takes an incredible amount of time and resources to get to. For the difficulty of getting there, storm was perfectly fine. Storm only looked OP because terrans didn't -- and some still don't -- know how to do anything else but spam MMM. The worst part about this nerf is that it promotes more colossi play, which is the real problem. If I have to mass colossi every game, I'm just not going to bother playing because colossi are incredibly boring units and they're not fun to use anymore. Plus, with the nerf, terran can just blindly mass MMM and sprinkle in reactor'd vikings and win. The most effective strategy I can see with the removal of amulet are one-base colossi timing pushes vs. T. lol, blizz I don't mass MM expecting to win a straight up fight against a Templar based army (unless I have alot of ghosts with gosu emps and vikings to counter your collusi, along with a good amount of medivacs and upgrades). I expect to be able to drop 1400 resources worth of units in your base though, and have them do SOME damage if you didn't notice the drop at all (8marauder + 2 medivac). Collusi play always was integral. If the Terran is really dedicating himself to a bio push, I think it's fair you should produce collusi (or be like NoNy and be gosu with double forge). I don't expect to hold off a mass gateway push + alot of forcefield without bio in the midgame. You react to what your opponent does - that's SC. If I was going straight for my mech army, you could probably go straight for temps too if you wished. Late game upgraded MMM+ghost should be decent against mass gateway + templar if you get good EMP's. Then it becomes battle of EMP, forcefield, unit positioning, feedback. That's why collusi + temps are mixed - it forces both vikings and ghosts, and overall just makes it more fun watching the players try to balance all appropriate units. Collusi micro versus vikings is good stuff anyway, trying to snipe a few before you engage. And to be honest, what is your ideal army without collusi? Pure gateway units (which besides templar are all tier one). Why should your tier one + templars rape my tier one + ghosts and medivacs, to the point that I feel you're saying my MMMG shouldn't even be viable late game. Just my thoughts on the matter. We'll see how it actually plays out if patch goes retail.
I don't know if you realize this, but the 80 storm damage isn't guaranteed, applied immediately. If you're not braindead, you can micro out of the storms -- even carpet storms if you understand the HT spellcasting range -- and come away relatively unscathed.
The perceived OPness of HT has to do more with the stubbornness of terran players and the lazy scouting of just about everyone. Harassing workers with storm is completely negated with good scouting. But far be it for Blizz to actually reward better players, rather than the laziest.
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hihihi...TLO just played a PvZ vs xlord on his stream and won with templar tech. xlord whines (jokingly) that it's too bad the amulet is not fixed yet to which TLO responds "Fail. I intentionally didn't research it this game :p".
Relevant? Maybe not. Amusing? Most certainly.
/edit
ment PvZ, i need to wake up
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they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right?
i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really.. the templar was the only effective way to deal with it!
all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
just copied and pasted my post from the PTR thread after i read this thread. i think it fits here a lot better!
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On February 26 2011 22:34 .syL wrote:
hihihi...TLO just played a TvP vs xlord on his stream and won with templar tech. xlord whines (jokingly) that it's too bad the amulet is not fixed yet to which TLO responds "Fail. I intentionally didn't research it this game :p".
Relevant? Maybe not. Amusing? Most certainly.
I also heard that Artosis is messing around with Templar tech without research the Amulet upgrade. Although there still is a chance that this change won't make it into the final patch, perhaps it would be interesting to experiment with not researching the Amulet upgrade even outside of the PTR.
Theorycrafting is great for getting a rough picture of the current situation, but I think we should all go out onto the PTR or even onto the normal servers and try to play with Templar tech without Amulet. I'm sure that there are still ways of working it into a viable build despite the nerf.
Nevertheless, I think there should be a compromise to compensate for the nerf.
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On February 26 2011 22:35 ilikeLIONZ wrote:
they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right?
i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really.. the templar was the only effective way to deal with it!
all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
just copied and pasted my post from the PTR thread after i read this thread. i think it fits here a lot better!
lol you never saw ghost emps totally decimating protoss armies.
HTs on the other hand..
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On February 26 2011 22:42 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 22:35 ilikeLIONZ wrote:
they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right?
i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really.. the templar was the only effective way to deal with it!
all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
just copied and pasted my post from the PTR thread after i read this thread. i think it fits here a lot better! lol you never saw ghost emps totally decimating protoss armies. HTs on the other hand..
Are you serious?
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I basically don't mind the change too much. I mean, drops are going to be way harder for toss to defend but not impossible. What bugs me though is that EMP is still a free spell and in my opinion its strength isn't much different from storm, especially given the fact that it's available so early in the game. Early Ghost pushes feel in most cases so ridiculous, so pleeeease make EMP a 200/200 or at least 150/150 research with a decent research time. Wouldn't really hurt terran too much and would definitely even out the Amulet change.
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On February 26 2011 22:42 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 22:35 ilikeLIONZ wrote:
they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right?
i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really.. the templar was the only effective way to deal with it!
all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
just copied and pasted my post from the PTR thread after i read this thread. i think it fits here a lot better! lol you never saw ghost emps totally decimating protoss armies. HTs on the other hand..
you can't be serious here, sorry..
drooL i agree, there must be something that evens it out a bit..
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why arent you able to defend drops anymore? instead of warping them in you could build them and leave them behind to defend - i dont see the big problem there.
The reason they removed it is most likely the one big problem they didnt solve yet - warpgate technology, i agree that the amulet isnt too strong but because you can have your hightemplars instant everywhere, thats what makes them too powerful. You can basically reeinforce archons that do a ton splashdamage before they become archons. Also lategame PvZ you couldnt really harass anymore because even if the protoss was totally undefended at his 6th base he could just warp in a single unit and be fine.
On the other hand its stupid that blizzard trys to nerf everything untill there is only one possibility left to play a certain matchup. Well iam not really sure if the amulet would change anything in the way i play PvZ, but it probably changes PvT alot and rushing for storm probably wont be viable anymore.
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On February 26 2011 22:54 ilikeLIONZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 22:42 andrewwiggin wrote:On February 26 2011 22:35 ilikeLIONZ wrote:
they removed the kaydarian amulet but the emp still doesn't need to be researched and does INSTANT damage compared to the so overpowered storm? the matchup will be pretty screwed, as you have to rely even more on the colossus now, so the terran can go for vikings blindly which shouldnt be the case, right?
i also don't see a good and reasonable way to deal with a double marauder drop now, when the terran is abusing his army's mobility to the maximum. in combination with the bigger maps this is gonna be mortal for protoss as marauders take down buildings in no time.. shall we build 8 canons per expo now, just to deal with a possible marauder drop? i'm confused, really.. the templar was the only effective way to deal with it!
all i hope is that they don't keep the balance changes as they are now, i wish i could test them instead of theory crafting..
just copied and pasted my post from the PTR thread after i read this thread. i think it fits here a lot better! lol you never saw ghost emps totally decimating protoss armies. HTs on the other hand.. you can't be serious here, sorry.. drooL i agree, there must be something that evens it out a bit..
I also consider Jinro's post interesting.
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
But we will see how it's going to pan out in the end. Let's play around with templar first and then start qqing eventually. :>
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I don't mean to compare bw to sc2 but in bw you had to actually wait for the templar to build and save up energy if you saw units in the middle of the map coming to you... now we at least can warp them in and wait... albeit we wait for 50-->75 instead of 63-->75 but i think if u take into account the build time and fact that you can have it anywhere in pylon power its good...
all that assuming that storm is as necessary and useful in bw as it is here (i.e. same functional necessity)
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Terran drops are the most powerful drops in the game.If your army isn't home, HTs with the amulet were the most efficient way of dealing with these drops. MMM drops can level a base very quickly, nothing in the protoss army aside from storm can deal with them cost effectively. The removal of the upgrade is bad, it would make sense if storms were actually very powerful, but they're not, Storms aren't powerful at all. With the amulet they seemed powerful because 5 HT + Warp in = 5 insta storms, but that's still 5 HTs.
In BW Storms were very powerful, this nerf makes sense only if storms do the damage to justify it, which they don't.
I have seen HT before colossus builds against MMM. And these builds aren't as effective as going colossus first. And the reason is, if you get EMPed that's 5 HTs that could have been actual attack units, or if your storms miss, then you have 5 useless units taking up food in your army. That's why colossus was and is still the stronger option. The amulet was a bit insane with warp in, but it made sense in that storms are weaker but come in numbers.
It's not our fault Terrans keep going bio all the way to late game. The nerf isn't well thought out at all.
If we're going back to the old BW HTs, that have to build up their storm energy, can we get a buff to storm damage to justify it? Otherwise, colossus first then eventually templar tech every time.
And archon toilet gets removed.
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Every HT we warp in without KA makes, every Templar we warp in less useful. So the more the Templars you warp the more or you feel the hit of not having KA. I think the nerf on the PTR will be a little too strong, but a step in the right direction, especially with a change to Stim as well.
And I'd rather get Carrier HT/ than Colossus HT.^^^
Edit; Thx Jinro and any other Pro who decided to comment ^__________^
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Pretty important 44 seconds when you're trying to defend from a drop or from mutalisk harras, don't you think?
Or trying to support on the battlefield. Have you ever made a brood lord and was like "Oh, ok, now I just have to wait 44 seconds for me to attack with this thing ONCE and then never use it again anymore" lol
It also took out a big mineral line harrass option we had.
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On February 26 2011 23:13 KingAce wrote:
Terran drops are the most powerful drops in the game.If your army isn't home, HTs with the amulet were the most efficient way of dealing with these drops. MMM drops can level a base very quickly, nothing in the protoss army aside from storm can deal with them cost effectively. The removal of the upgrade is bad, it would make sense if storms were actually very powerful, but they're not, Storms aren't powerful at all. With the amulet they seemed powerful because 5 HT + Warp in = 5 insta storms, but that's still 5 HTs.
In BW Storms were very powerful, this nerf makes sense only if storms do the damage to justify it, which they don't.
I have seen HT before colossus builds against MMM. And these builds aren't as effective as going colossus first. And the reason is, if you get EMPed that's 5 HTs that could have been actual attack units, or if your storms miss, then you have 5 useless units taking up food in your army. That's why colossus was and is still the stronger option. The amulet was a bit insane with warp in, but it made sense in that storms are weaker but come in numbers.
It's not our fault Terrans keep going bio all the way to late game. The nerf isn't well thought out at all.
If we're going back to the old BW HTs, that have to build up their storm energy, can we get a buff to storm damage to justify it? Otherwise, colossus first then eventually templar tech every time.
And archon toilet gets removed.
This. Seriously this.
If they're going to balance the HT like Brood War storms need to be worth something.
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Yes it is still a huge nerf. You have to warp in the HT 50 seconds before it can use the storm. Good luck with that.
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On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote:
How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless.
Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback, you have the only defensive structure that shoots both air and ground but you still feel it's impossible.
I suggest you change the game maybe.
@op I was expecting this amulet removal in the other patches as well, it was one of the most obvious game balance issues.
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On February 26 2011 23:24 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 19:27 Maskedsatyr wrote:
How are toss going to deal with drops in late game now? 2 dropships worth of units will be able to own almost any amount of warped in units without HTs. Its going to be impossible to defend multipronged attacks on 4-5 bases unless you expect us to camp a colo at each outlaying base.
In addition the speed of the HTs make it impossible to really attack now even if you win an engagement unless you completely crush it as terran reinforcements are usually enough to kill gateway armies without support. The only way HTs are going to be viable now is through warp prisms I imagine, warping them in at a corner and ferrying them around. This might be the evolution but I don't really see it happening with vikings having such range.
HTs definitely needed a nerf but I feel this is too big of a nerf, makes HTs completely useless. Protoss is the arcade race when it comes to dealing with drops, and you still complain. You can literally summon units wherever the drop occurs, you can still 1 shot medivacs with feedback but you still feel it's impossible. I suggest you change the game maybe.
Troll much? Have you ever watched 16 stimmed marines and 2 dropships go through a base without cannons? He could have 8 gateways and warp in units, if his army was somewhere else he would probably still lose and lose a considerable amount of his base before dealing with only 16 freaking marines. Sprinkle in some Rauders or a Tank and its a much bigger problem that destroys buildings in a heartbeat. Warpgate is mainly use to reinforce armies or sneak units into someone elses base and yeah I guess if you have some cannons you can defend with them too. But all unit producing structures can be used to defend to a certain extent -_-'.
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EPT
