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Consider that not only are warp in storms no longer available, but you're also at the mercy of when your warpgates are available, and your gas. Trying to time out enough gas per warp cycle, in advance of a potential push (so you have your storms ready just in case) will prove much more difficult to manage with colossus production. Especially given that you can not bank on warping HTs last second for a single storm if you're caught off guard by a push.
On February 26 2011 15:38 thethingexe wrote:
*Why not just reduce the damage of storm? Or increase the duration of it, but keeping the damage output the same?
I really like this suggestion. Zerg units on creep or stimmed bio would be able to run out of the storms much easier. The counter to this would be that forcefields will still stop them in their place, but in my opinion, if you're forcefielding units into place and then storming spot on, you have earned the domination you put on your opponent. + Show Spoiler +No more devastating than fungal growth + banelings to bio balls
I feel like EMP will be exponentially more devastating to protoss, as if you ever get an HT clump EMP'd you're done.
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I agree with Jinro. This change is probably necessary, but just removing the upgrade is not the optimal thing to do. Either nerf it so that it only gives +20/15 starting energy, or else make it so that it increases Templar regen rate, max energy, or something of that type.
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I feel that the nerf is unnecessary. I agree that warp in storms are a little ridiculous but removing amulet is just gonna make protoss play more collosus centered plays. I agree with Jinro, reverting HTs to something like BW where amulet would give you near warp in storms but still have to wait a little.
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I don't get the argument that terran is supposed to always win with a huge T1 army with minimal T2 support. How does it ever begin to make sense that every other race has to struggle managing a proper mix of every different techtier to just not lose against terran T1?
As a terran, you scout a templar archives going up, or being finished with a handy scan, during one of your usual drops, doing banshee harass etc. Then why the hell should it be possible to keep massing the same units that the templar archives is supposed to basically hardcounter and still win?
Instawarp-in storm was pretty dumb, but with every protoss T3 unit pretty much out of the picture now it doesn't exactly make for a more interesting or fun game. Terran can just blindly go reactored starports now since they know collossus will be what they have to kill.
If they decide to go through, then at least they should strongly consider buffing carriers, archons or some other shit to compensate.
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So a ghost gets starting energy but a templar doesnt? COOL!
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On the bright side, the charge fix kindof makes double forge as potent as ever against terran. I guess.
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People are angry at the thought of HTs being able to warp in and Storm/Feedback a Terran bio drop.
1) If it is unfair that bio drops are ineffective atm, why isn't it unfair that Protoss Warp Prism (using T1) harassment is ineffective (seeing as it is used far less frequently by pros and has far more drawbacks than bio drops)?
2) Warp-in HTs are pretty much the only cost-effective way of stopping bio drops. Without them, you either have to spam cannons, overwhelm with mass warp in of regular Warp Gate units (very inefficient vs drops) or draw your whole army back to engage. While drawing army back to engage is okay for Zerg (speedlings/mutalisks especially) because of the speed, Protoss armies are very slow and require engagement with all units at once to be effective (synergy, deathball-style, whatever).
3) Surely HTs SHOULD be effective vs bio drops, seeing as HTs are built specifically for the purpose of killing bio? If you scout HTs and still decide to drop with bio, that is your own fault, surely? An alternative would be a different type of harassment (see: Thor drops, Hellion run-bys, Tank drops on high ground etc) once HTs are out.
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I think this change will shift the P metagame a bit, instead of colossi->ht tech off 3 base we might see more and more archons being used as another unit to add to the death ball. Most P simply say they suck and that's that, but imo they haven't really been tested enough by most players to consider them void.
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its better to nerf a "underused" unit than to nerf the collossi (overused)
If they nerfed the collossi they would break protoss
so be thankful its just PTR and its the HT not collossi
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What will probably end up happening is people will open colossi and when the time comes where they would begin HT tech, they just spend their gas on air units to preserve the colossi's usefulness and prevent harass.
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I honestly believe that this is just growing pains for toss. There are institutions in the toss tech tree that blizzard has been very hesitant to change the character of and they are the collo and the HT. Since up to this point blizzard has been unwilling to compromise them, the rest of the toss army has been nerfed to oblivion around them. Sure if they proceed to nerf Collo or warpgate toss win ratios will plummet (and they may already drop quite a bit from this) but once these changes are made they will be able to buff stalkers and zealots to be on par with marines and marauders. Then the game will be far more standardized and balanced.
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Yeah this is pretty much bullshit. I agree that storm warpins on mineral lines were probably too strong, but that's not a reason to nerf an already underused techtree this hard. People are saying "Oh well, P will just have to warp them in earlier and wait. They can still warp them in anywhere on the map, what's the problem?"
Firstly, P can only warp in where there's power. Yeah, obvious I know. But then if you don't want P warping in at a location, then just don't let them get power there. Sensor towers for T, or leaving an infestor at base for Z (much more tricky but then it's T that is doing the majority of the complaining). P can get extra observers and spread them around, I guess. Hooray, storm drops are immediately less effective. It's not like blueflame hellion drops or stim marauder drops aren't just as scary anyway.
Second, warping in at their army and insta-storming bioballs. What does storm destroy? MM, hydra and mass muta are the things that come to mind for me. Coincidentally, these are all things that warping in other gateway units against will be next to useless. The reason P needs the ability to insta-reinforce with high tech units is because their core gateway units will lose an equal food battle with T and Z core units. Lategame P play revolves around the high tier units and keeping them alive long enough to do damage. HTs hanging around waiting for storm energy is going to result in the rest of the P army melting. If you're fighting P where he has power, then he has a defensive position to warp in powerful stuff. Not a big difference from setting up siege or having good creep spread there.
HTs are slow. If you don't move them with your army or warp them in where you need them, they are sitting ducks. HTs are useless without energy, you use them for their ability (storm, feedback) and then morph them to archons. The speed of getting the ability you need is key. P doesn't want to leave slow, vulnerable HTs lying around for longer than he has to. You need multiple clutch HTs to deal with drops anyway which is forcing expense, its not like one storm is going to kill it, and if you're warping in time to feedback then the amulet makes no difference.
Blah I forget if I was going to say anything else. More collosi in every matchup, yaaaay. I'm sleep deprived and annoyed about losing a viable tech tree as P. Oh and DISCLAIMER: I PLAY RANDOM, so this isn't just P butthurt whining. At the very least it's R butthurt whining 
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On February 27 2011 01:32 Cha1R wrote:
So a ghost gets starting energy but a templar doesnt? COOL!
u forgot that emp is free
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On February 27 2011 02:06 Hexaflex wrote:
Second, warping in at their army and insta-storming bioballs. What does storm destroy? MM, hydra and mass muta are the things that come to mind for me. Coincidentally, these are all things that warping in other gateway units against will be next to useless.
coincidentally they destroy vikings, the only real counter to colossi. and hellions. and banshees, and they're not too shabby against sieges also.
ling baneling are squishy to storms too.
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YAY!
=D
The one awesome toss unit that vikings can't counter finally gets nerfed!
Maybe this is blizzard's way of trying to make carriers popular.
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On February 27 2011 02:31 danielsan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 02:06 Hexaflex wrote:
Second, warping in at their army and insta-storming bioballs. What does storm destroy? MM, hydra and mass muta are the things that come to mind for me. Coincidentally, these are all things that warping in other gateway units against will be next to useless.
coincidentally they destroy vikings, the only real counter to colossi. and hellions. and banshees, and they're not too shabby against sieges also. ling baneling are squishy to storms too.
If the vikings are in range to get stormed, that is. Range 9 for all involved, with collosi and vikings being much faster than HTs, and with vikings being able to fire a volley, pull back and fire again. If the collosi pull back the vikings have done their job anyway, and a decent number of vikings will take down collosi quickly despite having to micro back and forth.
If you're gonna storm hellions you'd better be carpeting the whole area or blocking them with FF. Siege only really gets stormed when T is pulling back and they can't unsiege quickly enough because otherwise the T army is up ahead. In that situation the siege is going to be vulnerable to the P army anyway, storm or not.
Banshees I'll give you.
Lings are terrible at fighting a lategame P army anyway because of surface area and/or zealots. Used for surrounding or backstabbing they have the speed/are in close enough to P that storms are less effective. Blings on creep will still need to be FF'd to keep them away. Other than that, yeah storms are good vs blings. Why shouldn't they be?
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Sorry, your arguments are ridiculous.
In your perfect world a colossi should never be hit by a marine or marauder because it has more range. A stalker should never take damage from a marine and a zealot becomes useless when 2 marines or more are out.
Im not saying they shouldnt take damage (maybe viking should take less as it is armored), but then again it doesnt really matter. I was pointing out HTs kill more than just mm hydra muta and ling, while they still soften anything else.
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I think if this change goes through it needs to be accompanied by an EMP change. I'm fine with not having instant warp in storms if the HTs I *have* been saving up energy on aren't so easily negated by ghosts. Right now it's rather easy for a late game terran bioball to have 4+ ghosts and trivialize HTs. Without the ability to warp in new HTs with 75 energy it will be very difficult for P in late game.
Personally I would love it if they changed EMP to either only take out shields or only remove energy, but perhaps that is wishful thinking.
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Well i am not worried about the nerf itself, but the implications it will have to the matchups. The most worrying of them all is that terran and zerg can now go straight into vikings/corruptors + their favorite mix of ground units without scouting, as the only viable option for toss now is going to be colossi. That is actually a 'nerf' and not 'buff' for colossus play as protoss has to make them in order to stay alive - so if you think about it its a double nerf (to hts and colossus as well). It may seem to you a little bit stretched out but thats what is going to happen once the changes settle and terrans/zergs fully understand the new situation.
I guess from now on we are going to see more new strategies such as 6gate double forge, but thats a strat that requires way way more skill in comparison to MMM. Also, Colossus/Phoenix wont be viable anymore as all terran has to do is get out a single Thor and you can kiss goodbye your phoenixes - not only leaving colossus undefended but more importantly negating a whole tech tree toss chose to follow instead of getting more ground units.
Sure, warp-in storms was kind of strong but toss doesnt have the mobility of the other races in order to deal with simultaneous drops in the late game. Anyway, I think the best option for Blizzard is either Jinro's suggestion (63 energy) or make KA just give higher regenation rate instead of +25.
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I think Jinro's suggestion of less than 75 energy makes sense as that prevents storm warp-ins which are the only reason HTs are ridiculous right now. If someone has HTs for warp-in time + 5 seconds in your base without you realising, then you deserve to lose all your workers.
Storm is really cost inefficient vs drops because you have to use 1-2 HTs plus supporting units just to kill 1 drop of a couple of MM.
As for main army battles, it doesn't seem like an issue if MMM is not cost efficient against a late-game protoss army. Terran should be required to transition out of MMM by the lategame just like zerg cannot go roach hydra all game and expect to win or protoss cannot go blink stalker, sentry, chargelot
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EPT
