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On February 26 2011 17:25 numberThirtyOne wrote:
During the first game from tonight Nestea vs someone on Shakuras, Artosis said Amulet is the most powerful upgrade in the game and probably needs to be removed.
More and more I have less confidence that artosis actually knows what he is talking about. He only looks at things from a zerg perspective.
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On February 27 2011 04:10 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 04:07 Le BucheRON wrote:Would you rather they change HT warp-in time to their build time instead? That's more comparable to what you're complaining about. Perhaps the cool-down time for the HT be made the same? You REALLY can't compare warp-in to build time. P and T are completely different that way. Apples and Oranges. Now that's an idea... instead of having HT warp in with usual time let them warp in uniquely... start off red and turn orange yellow then blue and green and finally warp in... this process takes the build time of a HT and that way maybe they can feasibly keep their amulet upgrade But then the question becomes... do u want insta warp in for feedback? or do you want slow warp in for storms?
@ptb
High Templar already have a Buildtime of effectivly 50s+44s for them to get enough energy.
you need to invest 150Gas and 90s ingame time until you can do 80dmg over 8s.
if you get 3-4 HTs your you get like 3-4 storms, while your army is alot weaker due to tech and bound ressources. so going HT most likely is an all-in, cause if those storms fail to do decent dmg, you lose.
That is fine as long as you can reinforce with HTs to keep you safe, but this is now dead.
Now something else has to replace the Warp-in HTs to keep your army alive.
This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
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a lot of the whining sounds like a teenager trying to think of excuses to convince their parents to give them more money lol
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On February 27 2011 04:05 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 03:53 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:On February 27 2011 03:49 Dark-Storm wrote:
I dont like the fact that they'll take out the amulet so our HT can warp in to do a storm but they'll leave ghosts with their upgrade to emp right away. Not to mention a competent Terran will always EMP your HT befor you can feedback it because EMP outranges HT. Thats the thing i'm more pissed at because of the removal of the amulet people need to stop pulling that comparison. emp doesnt kill, is support, ghost has a quite long buildtime (warpin is what, 3 seconds?), is more expensive,very situational, ... etc More expensive ahhhhaaha. Seirously. Atleast make the attempt to respond to the statement. Emp destroys sentries and hts (their dps is trivial and their impact is negligible without their spells) in addition to significantly destroying immortal utility and instantly melting half the health of the rest of the army. Only thing situational about it is how amazingly powerful it is if you hit toss spell casters as opposed to the main force in which case it's only very strong. That's of course ignoring how resilient ghosts are and their lovely damage to light units all for 100 more minerals. Then we can talk about the ghost academy and instant emp as opposed to the torturous route to HTs. And I don't think most terrans understand how warp in works. The cooldown varies based on the previous unit warped in. Provided the slot is open and isn't on an excessive delay from whatever else you warped in, temps have to do damage or it's goin to take forever to warp in a new set of (oh so useful) reinforcements. Ravens and ghosts are so underrated by orders of magnitude.
From the perspective of a bad low league player i cant understand the amount of whine this change is getting. The amulet upgrade was absolutely game breaking for me. The problem is i was able to put extreme amounts of pressure with HT's for very little cost (because you reinforce army with archons afterwards). It got to the point i didnt even learn to 4 gate properly because it felt so hard to pull off in comparison. Now i feel HT has a bit risk/reward thing attached.
And crying about ghosts is just pathetic imo.
I feel this unit is the only thing between my deathball and total annihilation of any composition of terran units.
Again this is a perspective of low skill toss player.
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On February 27 2011 04:45 Basileus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 17:25 numberThirtyOne wrote:
During the first game from tonight Nestea vs someone on Shakuras, Artosis said Amulet is the most powerful upgrade in the game and probably needs to be removed. More and more I have less confidence that artosis actually knows what he is talking about. He only looks at things from a zerg perspective.
I think you shouldn't take 2nd hand sources. If you want to comment on Artosis's bias you should go and get the actual audio/footage and comment from there, not some post by a forum goer.
Either way I don't think there's any pro out there that thinks Amulet was good in it's current form. That being said complete removal without any compensation is a little silly. I could picture a massive storm buff and possible increase to feedback range as a very good addition to HT. Instant warp-in storms are just ridiculously silly. Another potential idea is a regen/movement speed upgrade.
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On February 26 2011 15:50 Basileus wrote:
I feel it's going to be incredibly difficult to deal with a good two base timing attack by terran if you choose the storm before colossus route without the amulet. Furthermore, its also going to be harder to deal with terran drops, since terran units are far more efficient in smaller numbers. Also you have to consider army trades bewteen terran and protoss. If the exchange is even and the majority of the armies are gone, the terran can remacro and attack again, while the protoss is going to have to wait for storm to charge up.
While instant storms on mineral lines might have been unfair, taking away amulet isn't the answer, perhaps just lowering the amount on how much energy the upgrade gives would be reasonable.
I think it's a huge nerf. Quote above sums it up well. Personally, I don't like the nerf at all.
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its funny when the game came out in beta and people realized u could warp in storm it was kinda like "oh... uhh... i guess you can do that lol"
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pretty much blizzard is just forcing protoss to play a certain way with the patch. no one is going to open storm any more. if you go ht the terran will just go thru your base with cloaked banshees and 3 shot the 60 energy hts
pretty terrible change imo. i would understand reducing the upgrade to +20 energy but without a change to ghosts (upgrade for emp or removal of their energy upgrade) their effectiveness is decimated.
and i don't understand people saying that emp is not comparable to storm.. it can easily do 1k damage INSTANTLY and essentially takes handfuls of sentries off the field at a time, and with cloak + good obs spotting/sniping, you can't just say ht's will just feedback every ghost before they get the emp off.
if this goes live every pvt is going to look exactly the same
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Either way I don't think there's any pro out there that thinks Amulet was good in it's current form. That being said complete removal without any compensation is a little silly. I could picture a massive storm buff and possible increase to feedback range as a very good addition to HT. Instant warp-in storms are just ridiculously silly. Another potential idea is a regen/movement speed upgrade.
Yeah, instastorms are a nightmare for T and Z I think everyone agrees, but just taking away amulet with no compensation buff makes HTs too weak, at least in comparison to collosi. I think that's the general consensus here.
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I think something to be considered is that the amulet by itself may not be that impressive, but the amulet+warp in is what makes it strong. Additionally, while it takes 44 seconds, you have to consider that the energy starts generating as soon as they are in.
I think it's not exactly fair to compare the caster units as apples to apples, but it's hard not to. Infestors (50sec) and ghosts(40) have a build time and then start generating energy. So whereas the templar is warped in 5 seconds and begins regenerated, by the time the cooldown is up you have the energy you might need. I think this is what they are basing this decision on, maybe if protoss used gateways (lolololololol) it wouldn't be removed. To say that it's a questionable decision I think is a little harsh, warp in already has a pretty good advantage with reinforcing and to reinforce with a storm already ready, is kind of strong.
I predicted something like this happening awhile back only I thought all 3 races would have their energy boosts removed.
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This argument about needing amulet warpin to defend drops is bogus.
How does T defend against mutas? How do good P defend against harass? By leaving fucking units there. You think he's patrolling with 20food, you leave 8 food/cannons at distant position and have your army camp the other position.
Instead you want to be able to rely on warpin to completely negate any harass. That's bullshit. No other race can on demand pull out a cycle of units wherever they want, yet they can all handle harass reasonably well with good scouting/positioning.
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On February 27 2011 04:45 Basileus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 17:25 numberThirtyOne wrote:
During the first game from tonight Nestea vs someone on Shakuras, Artosis said Amulet is the most powerful upgrade in the game and probably needs to be removed. More and more I have less confidence that artosis actually knows what he is talking about. He only looks at things from a zerg perspective.
Wrong my friend go watch that vod again at around 23:56 he said it is strong but it should be taken out pretty soon ACCORDING to what the patch notes are saying.
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On February 26 2011 17:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I think Protoss really needs something for Templars.
Think of it this way. For the gas cost of the amulet upgrade, Protoss can only make 1 HT extra. So while people can say to get HTs earlier, this is actually going to change builds, unit compositions, and expansion timings, due to balancing around the gas cost for earlier and/or more HT.
In terms of storms, you will have to make Templar much in advance to be effective. While this is not bad per se, it does make the ghost much more devastating. If the protoss is hit by EMPs in such a way that they lose all their HT energy, then that opens up a 44.4 second timing window for Terran to attack or drop without fear of storms.
This also makes the decision to feedback much harder. To replenish the energy spent from a feedback, it will take 88.9 seconds. This means that you can feedback off newly made HTs, but if you feedback with older HTs, then they either cannot storm, or they must have been alive for 133.3 seconds already, to be able to afford a feedback and then a storm. What I think this will result in, is an overproduction of HTs, so that you can afford to feedback ghosts, but still have storm on other HTs. This also greatly reduces the efficiency of HTs stopping drops, as they must already be around, in order to be in position and have a storm ready.
I feel this also opens too many windows for the opponent to attack after any engagement with storms. If the opponent realizes that the protoss has spent all Templar energy, then he knows that he has a 44.4 second window to attack without there being any storms. This seems huge for drops and timing pushes, as it takes out any uncertainty in the threat of storms.
Personally, I don't think this is a good decision, and that some compromise should be made, both for these reasons, and others.
So I'm gonna bring this up again, because I don't think many people have seen it or mentioned anything similar recently.
My question is, what do people think of the fact that if all HT energy is used on a Terran/Zerg, he gets an assured window to attack the protoss before storm can be up again? This seems pretty huge to me, as say against a Terran, after a major engagement where all storms are used, he has a window where he can perform multiple drops without there being any storms.
I also think that this is going to make storm-baiting a lot more common, and will force the protoss to ball up his units more, so that he can deal with smaller forces easily without having to use storms.
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I think this will make PvT lot more one dimensional, but who knows.
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i would be ok with this nerf except for EMP. it makes your current templar worthless and we need some reinforcement so we can get off a storm. if EMP was nerfed i would be ok with this chnage or make it give 70 energy so you haev to wait a little bit but toss needs to be able to reinforce with HT against bio
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As a protoss I am really really sad to see to this go.
And I am having a hard to understanding how Blizz can justify it.
Protoss spends the entire game thinking of ways to handle stim MMM. Be it collusus or this, and as a player who absolutly despises the colussus for how quickly it dies to mass viking(which it cannot fight back against) I modeled my PvT around templar tech only, HTs can fight their enemies(ghosts) with some feedbackan. But now that won't be as viable, no terran is going to respect my storm tech, and you can no longer save a few gateways to warp in storms if the terran lands a money emp( Yes I spread my templars but sometimes shit happens ). 1 emp can now change the entire game.
Why is this happening is my real question? Protoss techs all the way to tier 3 and blizzard nerfs them so Terran tier 1 units are still viable. Why don't you tech too terran? Hmmmm? You have other units and last I checked storm isn't viable against a mass siege line. Stop trying to all-in me, secure some bases and start teching to your fancier units damn it.
/rant.
R.I.P Amulet. Never Forget.
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8751 Posts
On February 27 2011 04:45 Basileus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 17:25 numberThirtyOne wrote:
During the first game from tonight Nestea vs someone on Shakuras, Artosis said Amulet is the most powerful upgrade in the game and probably needs to be removed. More and more I have less confidence that artosis actually knows what he is talking about. He only looks at things from a zerg perspective.
but he plays protoss :o
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but he plays protoss :o
I think he plays Protoss ironically. 
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On February 27 2011 05:27 Le BucheRON wrote:I think he plays Protoss ironically.
That`s why he was being serious. Artosis switched to Protoss, so it`s stupid to say he only looks at things from a Zerg`s point of view.
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Bad change but I'm not sure what they could have to changed to fix it since a change is obviously needed.
However, in terms of defense, Protoss need these storms because the Terran player is able to drop at will while Protoss hardly ever drop because of Vikings patrolling the whole map. Any drop that a Protoss attempts will inevitably result in a dead Warp Prism and other huge losses of resources from the units destroyed. Whereas a Terran can always do guerilla warfare attacks in and out of the Protoss base without as much risk. I think this update will make the matchup even more stale.
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EPT
