|
On February 27 2011 03:15 danielsan wrote:
Sorry, your arguments are ridiculous.
In your perfect world a colossi should never be hit by a marine or marauder because it has more range. A stalker should never take damage from a marine and a zealot becomes useless when 2 marines or more are out.
Im not saying they shouldnt take damage (maybe viking should take less as it is armored), but then again it doesnt really matter. I was pointing out HTs kill more than just mm hydra muta and ling, while they still soften anything else.
My point was that HTs are best against MM hydra muta which are the things that destroy the other units P could warp in. P can't warp in anything else that will be truly effective against them.
I was just saying that your point (that storm hurts other things too) was less relevant because of range/speed/unit use making it less effective. Yes storm is still good against them, but not so good that instastorm was unfair. And the reason P needs instastorm has much less to do with those units, but rather because of the MM/Hydra/Muta.
|
aww so sad that now again there actually have to be an idle templar at any toss base that could be dropped (he will have 2 storms probably and will save you 50/150 for doing the same thing (a dt under the dropship is way cooler anyway, drop slash drop slash *g*)), and will have to use a warp prism now that actually is filled with something.
Anyway that makes hts now more a support unit for colossi and a feedback unit and archon afterwards (which is quiet strong).
But i would also go for the oldschool mechanic for templars + give the same upgrade to raven *-* for more seeker use.
|
I dont like the fact that they'll take out the amulet so our HT can warp in to do a storm but they'll leave ghosts with their upgrade to emp right away. Not to mention a competent Terran will always EMP your HT befor you can feedback it because EMP outranges HT. Thats the thing i'm more pissed at because of the removal of the amulet
|
On February 27 2011 03:49 Dark-Storm wrote:
I dont like the fact that they'll take out the amulet so our HT can warp in to do a storm but they'll leave ghosts with their upgrade to emp right away. Not to mention a competent Terran will always EMP your HT befor you can feedback it because EMP outranges HT. Thats the thing i'm more pissed at because of the removal of the amulet
people need to stop pulling that comparison.
emp doesnt kill, is support, ghost has a quite long buildtime (warpin is what, 3 seconds?), is more expensive,very situational, ... etc
|
On February 27 2011 03:49 Dark-Storm wrote:
I dont like the fact that they'll take out the amulet so our HT can warp in to do a storm but they'll leave ghosts with their upgrade to emp right away. Not to mention a competent Terran will always EMP your HT befor you can feedback it because EMP outranges HT. Thats the thing i'm more pissed at because of the removal of the amulet
Would you rather they change HT warp-in time to their build time instead? That's more comparable to what you're complaining about.
|
with the ht drop they become neglected by ghosts.. so for it to be fair.. ghost should start with less energy so they can't instant-emp a protoss.. considering the fact that a single emp does 500+ damage easy against protoss.. and emp/ghosts aren't used against zerg makes would make it fair to make ghosts worse if you make the HT worse..the instant storm is only good vs terran drops cause protoss army are so incedebly immobile.. and 1 warpin of zealots/stalkers won't kill 1 dropship full of marines/marauders with the heal they get from the dropship.
this will make drops so effective that they will kill the game.. cause protoss won't be able to go more then 3 bases without making 200 canons to prevent drops.. which is ridiculous..
|
As a P player, I can understand the amulet change. I think initially removing it on the PTR is ok to gauge PvT lategame changes.
Though i think the stim nerf is not enough, 30s is not much gametime. I think stim should be a mid/late game upgrade and require a factory or armory.
|
On February 27 2011 04:03 VenerableSpace wrote:
As a P player, I can understand the amulet change. I think initially removing it on the PTR is ok to gauge PvT lategame changes.
Though i think the stim nerf is not enough, 30s is not much gametime. I think stim should be a mid/late game upgrade and require a factory or armory.
I think 1 base void ray is too dominant if u push stim upgrade too far back
|
On February 27 2011 03:53 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 03:49 Dark-Storm wrote:
I dont like the fact that they'll take out the amulet so our HT can warp in to do a storm but they'll leave ghosts with their upgrade to emp right away. Not to mention a competent Terran will always EMP your HT befor you can feedback it because EMP outranges HT. Thats the thing i'm more pissed at because of the removal of the amulet people need to stop pulling that comparison. emp doesnt kill, is support, ghost has a quite long buildtime (warpin is what, 3 seconds?), is more expensive,very situational, ... etc
More expensive ahhhhaaha. Seirously. Atleast make the attempt to respond to the statement.
Emp destroys sentries and hts (their dps is trivial and their impact is negligible without their spells) in addition to significantly destroying immortal utility and instantly melting half the health of the rest of the army. Only thing situational about it is how amazingly powerful it is if you hit toss spell casters as opposed to the main force in which case it's only very strong.
That's of course ignoring how resilient ghosts are and their lovely damage to light units all for 100 more minerals.
Then we can talk about the ghost academy and instant emp as opposed to the torturous route to HTs. And I don't think most terrans understand how warp in works. The cooldown varies based on the previous unit warped in. Provided the slot is open and isn't on an excessive delay from whatever else you warped in, temps have to do damage or it's goin to take forever to warp in a new set of (oh so useful) reinforcements.
Ravens and ghosts are so underrated by orders of magnitude.
|
Would you rather they change HT warp-in time to their build time instead? That's more comparable to what you're complaining about.
Perhaps the cool-down time for the HT be made the same? You REALLY can't compare warp-in to build time. P and T are completely different that way. Apples and Oranges.
|
On February 27 2011 04:07 Le BucheRON wrote:Show nested quote +Would you rather they change HT warp-in time to their build time instead? That's more comparable to what you're complaining about. Perhaps the cool-down time for the HT be made the same? You REALLY can't compare warp-in to build time. P and T are completely different that way. Apples and Oranges.
Now that's an idea... instead of having HT warp in with usual time let them warp in uniquely... start off red and turn orange yellow then blue and green and finally warp in... this process takes the build time of a HT and that way maybe they can feasibly keep their amulet upgrade
But then the question becomes... do u want insta warp in for feedback? or do you want slow warp in for storms?
|
Removing amulet completely is just wrong. Storm warps obviously were too good but I guess if amulet would add only like this 12,5 starting energy mentioned before, it would be fine. It wouldn't allow to "in-battle" storm warps so I guess it would work. Well terrans do still have mineral lane wrecking blue flame hellions drops and there is no sign of removing this upgrade, nor do I feel like it should be removed. Just like amulet should not be.
|
Now that's an idea... instead of having HT warp in with usual time let them warp in uniquely... start off red and turn orange yellow then blue and green and finally warp in... this process takes the build time of a HT and that way maybe they can feasibly keep their amulet upgrade
that's not what I meant. I mean after warping in a HT (regular time) the length of time before you can warp in anything else (cooldown) on that warpgate be the same as a ghost.
|
Thank goodness as a Terran I can instantly warp in a sieged tank anywhere. It would be impossible to defend all this lategame harass without it.
|
Dominican Republic913 Posts
On February 26 2011 16:05 avilo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Completely agree with the amulet change. Yes, it's coming from a Terran. But it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many games where protoss can turtle infinitely in the late game versus bio+viking simply because wherever they place a pylon, there is a storm.
This would be like me being able to warp-in ghosts and nukes for defense...great change imo, I'm sure other Terrans are happy about this.
Templar will still be 1 million times effective vs bio, it's just now protoss has to plan just like the rest of us...instead of, "oh, I can warp in and stop you from attacking in 4 places at once."  and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins. As for the maps though...yeah...
Why are u complaining if collosus+phoenix+stalker ball is better than HT?
I have already seen enough high level protosses lose a clear advantage due to multi-pronged drops sniping vital tech buildings and nexii to know this is going to be very, VERY hard to deal with.
|
Guys, don't forget that HTs actually got buffed too, although indirectly.
Chargelots will now always get at least 1 hit in. We all know that Zealots are very good, especially against MMM in a straight up fight. Charge allows them to continue fighting MMM that's kiting, but previously many hits would "miss" because Charge doesn't guarantee at least 1 hit per Charge. However, now with this change, Chargelots by themselves will be very very good against MMM (they always were good but they'll be even better now). And because of this, it will be much easier to survive that long period of time before you get your HTs up (and you can get your HTs earlier now that you don't need to research the Amulet upgrade).
Thoughts? Did I miss something?
And again I still haven't seen one reason why as to why they don't just increase the HT warp-in time (NOT cooldown), or even reduce the Amulet upgrade or something like Jinro said. Can anyone think of even the slightest reason why?
|
On February 27 2011 04:18 Carmine wrote:
Thank goodness as a Terran I can instantly warp in a sieged tank anywhere. It would be impossible to defend all this lategame harass without it.
Yeh, those warp prisms full of ranged high dps units going around really bother us!
On February 27 2011 04:29 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Guys, don't forget that HTs actually got buffed too, although indirectly.
Chargelots will now always get at least 1 hit in. We all know that Zealots are very good, especially against MMM in a straight up fight. Charge allows them to continue fighting MMM that's kiting, but previously many hits would "miss" because Charge doesn't guarantee at least 1 hit per Charge. However, now with this change, Chargelots by themselves will be very very good against MMM (they always were good but they'll be even better now). And because of this, it will be much easier to survive that long period of time before you get your HTs up (and you can get your HTs earlier now that you don't need to research the Amulet upgrade).
Thoughts? Did I miss something?
And again I still haven't seen one reason why as to why they don't just increase the HT warp-in time (NOT cooldown), or even reduce the Amulet upgrade or something like Jinro said. Can anyone think of even the slightest reason why?
Probably testing an extreme, to better find where the middle optimal ground is, not sure.
|
Yeah that's true zealots are practically ranged units in a way now on the ground thanks to the charge buff
|
I am quite surprised there are so many people here who still insist on describing EMP as instant damage and comparing it to storm.
EMP is a powerfull ability there is no doubt about it, but no matter how much you twist and turn it is a SUPPORT ability. It cannot kill a single unit (not even an archon who is almost nothing except shields) by itself.
Yes 3-4 clutch EMPs can remove the shields from an entire protoss ball but by itself that is no damage.
A Proper Storm carpet laid down means the Terran army HAS to disengage or die. No other choices available (and even if they do turn around immediatly chances are you won't a decent amount of marines out alive anyway). If you try to "run through" and press the Protoss army will cut them to pieces.
What was the usual situation before this change (If both players were playing about equally macrowise)? Usually the battle came down to 2 questions: Do my emps land before his storms go off or the other way around and the second question: If i have EMPed perfectly can i catch his entire army before he gets reinforced.
With forcefields as a tool to cover their retreat i have seen quite a few protoss retreat successfully if the Terran EMPs well. 20s later they will have a new round of templars and a few Archons and go for it again. The Terran on the other hand will now have maybe 1 more EMP left, because even if he immediatly ordered new Ghosts they won't be anywhere near finished (never mind in the correct position on the map).
How can that be fair in any way? Frankly i am completly fine with the warpgate mechanic and the "normal" units (stalker, sentry, zealot). Even if those units can be upgraded to remain very usefull into the very late game, it's one of the differences between races which makes the game fun.
The ability to instantly warp in 6 High Tech units anywhere you want with their spells ready for use on the other hand has always annoyed the stuffing out of me, because it makes beating protoss in the very lategame almost impossible.
Frankly i welcome this change, mostly because i can maybe start to play proper macro games against protoss again.
|
THIS SUKS how can protoss defend drops the only think i can think of is rlly fast warp in an ht feedback and then while ht is warpin get 2 stalkers and snipe it before the medivac drops but would take rlly rlly fast reaction time
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
