|
8751 Posts
On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote:
This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor.
|
I don't think that Blizz could possibly go through with this exact change. Similar to the original Infestor nerf a patch ago, it will be removed in PTR for being too drastic. However, I do feel they will try to nerf it some other way. Whatever that will be, I do not know. But I am doubting at this point the change will make it to the actual game.
|
Probably testing an extreme, to better find where the middle optimal ground is, not sure.
Makes sense, I guess. May be I'm just thinking too hard and they are just testing this in the purest form of the word, for kicks and giggles.
|
I think it needed to be changed, but completely removing it with no compensation is pretty extreme.
|
On February 27 2011 05:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote:
This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor.
Tyler hitten em wit da gospel... where'd i put my popcornz
|
I've thought about it more... and if warp-in storms vs workers is the reason for the nerf then I think I'm even more against it. Here's why:
If you don't see a HT drop (or any threatening worker harass from any race) you will lose a ton of workers. That's a given, and that is part of the game, right? You deserve to lose workers. If you let 20 zerglings in your base, you are losing your workers. Mutas over your workers with no stalkers in sight? Losing workers. Bio drop that you never saw coming? Bye bye workers.
BUT IF you see an incoming HT or three soon enough (5 seconds?), you can move your workers away and potentially lose zero workers. HT are slow, phase prisms die easily, etc. You even have options to attack with a couple of workers if HT is unescorted b/c HT has no basic attack. Or just run workers away until you have a small group of units to defend (as few as 1-2 marauders, 1-2 hellion, 1-2 roach, handfull of lings, etc.). So there are options for ZERO workers lost IF you see them incoming. The hatchery and command center of whatever variety is 100% safe from HT damage as well as other buildings. Protoss has to bring a large gateway army or immortals to be scary vs buildings... and orbitals fly so even that's not always a problem for T.
Now if you see a bio drop incoming, you will usually lose some workers because you can't outrun stimmed bio. Or let's say you see it coming a mile away you can run your workers away, but you still lose your nexus/hatch which is still bad.
Hellions with blueflames? No, you are guaranteed to lose many workers unless you have a big ground force or tons of cannons/sunkens/forcefields/etc. Buildings fairly safe though.
Mutas or banshees? Similar options as a bio drop. Can kill orbitals, nexus, hatch. Usually guaranteed a few kills at least b/c faster than medivacs.
So in my eyes, the decision should not be about worker harass at all. It had better be about some inherent army vs army problem.
|
On February 27 2011 05:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote:
This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor.
I don't like Colossus in Design. Also Storm benefits alot from Zealot surrounds.
Colossus in my eyes need to long to deal their damage (unless you have decent numbers)
2-3 Storms to negate the Medivacs healing, and your ground army deals great damage while you can easily reinforce with Zealots (trading Minerals against Mineral/Gas Units is always good in my eyes)
As long as you have enough Sentry Energy for GS Warpgate Army is ok.
But Double Forge Builds needs AoE when Medivacs kick in, thats my experiance.
Templar in my Eyes is way more viable cause you will have TC because you need it for the +2/+2upgrades.
Colossus in that equation takes too long.
Storm nerf would force me to deviate my build into getting Colossus. (don't like that)
|
My main concern as a protoss is with how this affects mobility for protoss. Protoss armies moreso than other races seem to really need to be together to be effective. Its going to be even easier for the other races to split your army up and reduce your effectiveness at key moments.
Kind of funny that everyone skipped over Jinro's post on the first page when hes playing at a higher level than probably anyone who has read this thread. I like the idea of all casters starting with 63 energy and just removing the upgrades. At least that way if you spot a drop coming you can react without spliting your entire army up. A terran can send 400 minerals worth of marines and be more than fine vs. a drop, zerg has a queen there already and extremely fast units to get to the drop location, but protoss will have a very tough time defending them on equal resouces, if its even possible. I hate the fact that In order to be really safe I have to kind of hope im not using all of my gateways.
Solution is probably just build a ton of observers, which obviously leads to some other problems when you're looking down and at your army and seeing 2 or 3 less colo/immortals.
Change is pretty extreme.
|
On February 27 2011 05:08 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 17:34 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I think Protoss really needs something for Templars.
Think of it this way. For the gas cost of the amulet upgrade, Protoss can only make 1 HT extra. So while people can say to get HTs earlier, this is actually going to change builds, unit compositions, and expansion timings, due to balancing around the gas cost for earlier and/or more HT.
In terms of storms, you will have to make Templar much in advance to be effective. While this is not bad per se, it does make the ghost much more devastating. If the protoss is hit by EMPs in such a way that they lose all their HT energy, then that opens up a 44.4 second timing window for Terran to attack or drop without fear of storms.
This also makes the decision to feedback much harder. To replenish the energy spent from a feedback, it will take 88.9 seconds. This means that you can feedback off newly made HTs, but if you feedback with older HTs, then they either cannot storm, or they must have been alive for 133.3 seconds already, to be able to afford a feedback and then a storm. What I think this will result in, is an overproduction of HTs, so that you can afford to feedback ghosts, but still have storm on other HTs. This also greatly reduces the efficiency of HTs stopping drops, as they must already be around, in order to be in position and have a storm ready.
I feel this also opens too many windows for the opponent to attack after any engagement with storms. If the opponent realizes that the protoss has spent all Templar energy, then he knows that he has a 44.4 second window to attack without there being any storms. This seems huge for drops and timing pushes, as it takes out any uncertainty in the threat of storms.
Personally, I don't think this is a good decision, and that some compromise should be made, both for these reasons, and others. So I'm gonna bring this up again, because I don't think many people have seen it or mentioned anything similar recently. My question is, what do people think of the fact that if all HT energy is used on a Terran/Zerg, he gets an assured window to attack the protoss before storm can be up again? This seems pretty huge to me, as say against a Terran, after a major engagement where all storms are used, he has a window where he can perform multiple drops without there being any storms. I also think that this is going to make storm-baiting a lot more common, and will force the protoss to ball up his units more, so that he can deal with smaller forces easily without having to use storms.
This change means Protoss will have to be more careful about how they use their storms, for sure, but there won't be time intervals when they don't have any storms unless they warp in all their templars at the same time and use all their storms at once. Plus they can just leave HT at their expos to steadily charge up energy like most did in BW; that way they can even have multiple storms. Still not sure how I feel about this change.
|
Unless I missed something, Psionic Storm was nerfed badly since BW (reduced area and damage) because warp-in + amulet allow Protoss to have many more castings (if they pony up the cash) and made it much less viable to try to snipe out Protoss's storms before he used them.
If Warp-in Storm is removed, then please give Protoss back a non-gimped Storm. It used to be we could save up three storms per templar, and each one was at least half-again as strong as the current psionic storm...
|
On February 27 2011 06:21 Severedevil wrote:
Unless I missed something, Psionic Storm was nerfed badly since BW (reduced area and damage) because warp-in + amulet allow Protoss to have many more castings (if they pony up the cash) and made it much less viable to try to snipe out Protoss's storms before he used them.
If Warp-in Storm is removed, then please give Protoss back a non-gimped Storm. It used to be we could save up three storms per templar, and each one was at least half-again as strong as the current psionic storm...
You are missing something. Psionic Storm had its area reduced because units naturally clump more in SC2 than in BW, not because warp-in + amulet. Also, while the duration of the Psionic Storm spell was shortened the DPS was increased, so a storm does the same damage. I believe this was done because units moving more fluidly in the new engine were too easily dodging the storms before significant damage was dealt. These two things are not nerfs, they were basically just trying to make Psionic Storm work well in the new SC2 engine.
Edit: accidentally wrote "now" instead of "not."
|
On February 27 2011 07:03 Carmine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 06:21 Severedevil wrote:
Unless I missed something, Psionic Storm was nerfed badly since BW (reduced area and damage) because warp-in + amulet allow Protoss to have many more castings (if they pony up the cash) and made it much less viable to try to snipe out Protoss's storms before he used them.
If Warp-in Storm is removed, then please give Protoss back a non-gimped Storm. It used to be we could save up three storms per templar, and each one was at least half-again as strong as the current psionic storm... You are missing something. Psionic Storm had its area reduced because units naturally clump more in SC2 than in BW, not because warp-in + amulet. Also, while the duration of the Psionic Storm spell was shortened the DPS was increased, so a storm does the same damage. I believe this was done because units moving more fluidly in the new engine were too easily dodging the storms before significant damage was dealt. These two things are not nerfs, they were basically just trying to make Psionic Storm work well in the new SC2 engine.
Players had to manually declump their units in BW to deal with from Psionic Storm as well, so I don't see the unfairness in expecting the same in SC2.
And no, Psionic Storm did not do only 80 damage per casting in Brood War. The total damage was 112 in Brood War.
|
I've noticed a few people mentioning the idea of HTs having a defiler-like energy steal from their own units. If they incorporated this instead of the amulet upgrade, I'd be happy. Instant storms would still be greatly reduced, and would require more skill to operate properly.
I'm a toss player, and I'm saddened to see a slight nerf that encourages me to get the most boring of all my goddamn units, the colossus. Neither of the other races HAVE to build a certain unit to win, but it's rapidly looking like Blizzard want protoss v x. matches to revolve around building / preventing colossi.
P.S. I heard Terrans can build fun shit and win (2port opener, fast hellions into mech, Bio play). What happened to Toss having variety? (reavers, DTs, arbiters, archon spells and all this whilst having a BRUTAL high templar storm spell)
|
Another person made a valid point a while ago. Storm is supposed to counter bio-balls, so why are all the Terran players complaining when, in the late game, Protoss has Colossi and HTs, and they keep making goddamn MM? That makes absolutely no sense to me. The prevailing excuse to this phenomenon is "Oh, Mech simply isn't viable against Toss so we NEED to go bio!"
Well, why not buff Terran Mech instead? I'm being generous with the assumption that Terran players actually have indeed experimented far and wide with various Mech compositions in the lategame and have found no solution, although I am skeptical of this because the masses are always predisposed to whining prematurely. Seems like the philosophy Blizzard has here is, "Oh, Protoss's T3 warp-in storms are too powerful against a T1 Terran composition! Let's nerf storms so that Terran T1 can actually viably go up against Protoss T3 in the lategame!"
That makes absolutely no sense to me. Why should Terran be allowed to constantly go bio all the way into the lategame, then whine when Protoss's T3 storms completely demolish the bioballs? I would be far more welcoming of experimenting with Terran mech buffs than simply nerfing HTs and keeping the late-game one-dimensional by encouraging the continuation of bio-balls vs Protoss T3 rather than encouraging Mech play against late-game Protoss.
|
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
instead of that i would rather have the ghost version removed and medivacs slightly nerfed
|
On February 27 2011 07:42 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 07:03 Carmine wrote:On February 27 2011 06:21 Severedevil wrote:
Unless I missed something, Psionic Storm was nerfed badly since BW (reduced area and damage) because warp-in + amulet allow Protoss to have many more castings (if they pony up the cash) and made it much less viable to try to snipe out Protoss's storms before he used them.
If Warp-in Storm is removed, then please give Protoss back a non-gimped Storm. It used to be we could save up three storms per templar, and each one was at least half-again as strong as the current psionic storm... You are missing something. Psionic Storm had its area reduced because units naturally clump more in SC2 than in BW, not because warp-in + amulet. Also, while the duration of the Psionic Storm spell was shortened the DPS was increased, so a storm does the same damage. I believe this was done because units moving more fluidly in the new engine were too easily dodging the storms before significant damage was dealt. These two things are not nerfs, they were basically just trying to make Psionic Storm work well in the new SC2 engine. Players had to manually declump their units in BW to deal with from Psionic Storm as well, so I don't see the unfairness in expecting the same in SC2. And no, Psionic Storm did not do only 80 damage per casting in Brood War. The total damage was 112 in Brood War.
I believe that comparing the statistics directly and saying," PS was nerfed badly to make up for OP upgrades" is underestimating the amount and importance of factors involved.
|
as i already said and as you said it, i think that the fact they did this clearly shows there is something broken with storm, so why not either reducing the damage of storm,or making it more dodgable.
|
its a very significant nerf
mind you that most pvts that result in ht vs ghost battles
the ghost is able to emp most of the hts at some point in time making them entirely useless
but hey if you get amulet you can make a couple of hts to have a chance to survive the push
that is slowly reaching your base -not anymore
|
This is a huge nerf, because it delays templar tech even more. Lategame P relies on being able to warp in HTs for defense. For a player admirably intent on sticking with the HT tech, it means that to defend with HTs they have to hold back charged HTs in their base for defense, This will delay the ability of players to incorporate HTs into their pushes by minutes, especially when you factor in the fact that the HTs in the push will have needed to charge before it can begin. HT already takes forever to enter the field -- this nerf is going to make them all but impossible to use and basically spells the end of HT play IMO.
|
On February 27 2011 05:42 uSnAmplified wrote:
I think it needed to be changed, but completely removing it with no compensation is pretty extreme.
If they buffed archons I wouldn't only be fine with this change but love it. I want my archons ;>
Harass defense will be harder lategame now too btw. More cannons at each expand + main I guess.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
