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On February 27 2011 05:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote:
This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor.
What do you mean, EMP's don't care about armor? EMP only hits shields. EMP's should be irrelevant, shouldn't they? Doesn't that mean upgrades will be even more beneficial, since the only hitpoints being effectively being "used" are the actual life, not shields, so armor applies to the unit completely?
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On February 27 2011 09:51 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 05:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote:
This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor. What do you mean, EMP's don't care about armor? EMP only hits shields. EMP's should be irrelevant, shouldn't they? Doesn't that mean upgrades will be even more beneficial, since the only hitpoints being effectively being "used" are the actual life, not shields, so armor applies to the unit completely?
EMP's take away the HT energy, so having armor upgrades does nothing to help the HT do its job if it gets EMP'd`
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won't the ghost upgrade be hugely overpowering in late game now.
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Was actually trying out some neat HT builds... but uh i guess im gonna stop now and go back to colossus play.
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On February 27 2011 10:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 09:51 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 27 2011 05:31 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On February 27 2011 04:45 freetgy wrote:
This will most likly lead to way more Colossus sentric play, all the interesting double forge builds will be alot less interesting, making P very predicable and boring.
double forge builds are infinitely better w/ colossus than w/ storm. it doesnt make sense to invest 1000's into upgrading and then have your main damage be storm, which receives no benefit from weapon upgrades, and is cast by HT's, which die fast when targeted whether they have armor or not, and are gonna be drawing out EMP's, which dont care about armor. What do you mean, EMP's don't care about armor? EMP only hits shields. EMP's should be irrelevant, shouldn't they? Doesn't that mean upgrades will be even more beneficial, since the only hitpoints being effectively being "used" are the actual life, not shields, so armor applies to the unit completely? EMP's take away the HT energy, so having armor upgrades does nothing to help the HT do its job if it gets EMP'd`
Wasn't aware you were talking about HT specifically. I just assumed, as I'm not a P player, that when you go Templar you'd have a much more gateway oriented army, as you'd also eventually get blink/charge sooner (I presume), thus benefitting more from the upgrades.
But merely an assumption.
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I think this nerf is fine, no race should be immune to late-game drop tactics with the insta-storm warp-in. Protoss are still able to warp in other gateway units to deal with drops, and they can still have cannons placed to buy time for other reinforcements. Good scouting is always #1 to prevent a drop; nothing annoys me more than seeing some scrubby protoss with poor map awareness warp-in ht+gateway and rape a drop which by all means should have done damage due to poor scouting on the toss's behalf.
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On February 27 2011 10:34 soullogik wrote:
won't the ghost upgrade be hugely overpowering in late game now.
Ghosts take 45 secs (or somewhere in that region) to build. HT's take 5 secs to warp in..........
Terrans have to plan to have ghosts out for a push timing, or keep them in their base ready to defend..... yes if a ghost pops out of the rax just at the right time it can EMP right away, but it started building the better part of a minute earlier.
If ghosts/infestors didn't have the upgrade, then they would take the build time plus the energy regen time to be ready.... thats a total of 1 minute 30 secs from build command to the spell being ready (in the case of a ghost) as apposed to 49 seconds for a HT. Thats a pretty huge difference.
This is all before you take into account that EMP isn't instant cast and only removes shields and energy, thus can't kill anything.
Have to agree with Jinro tho, perhaps +50% starting energy (63 instead of 50) would be perfect, however instant storms are simply too good, if you warp in your HT in time through good scouting you can still feedback the medivac and either hurt it severely or kill it, meaning warping in 1-2 stalkers at the same time will finish the medivac off before it can drop all its cargo. You could also just have a couple cannons there to hold the attack while you warp in units
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TL Open finals game 1 changing my opinion on the amulet...
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A Terran with good control should now be able to guarantee that he will not face a storm, ever. A probing ghost, or a probing medivac with a ghost in it would be able to pick off templars.
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On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50).
With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something.
P couldn't warp in units instantly in BW. If they gave them an energy upgrade, it would just make this change completely pointless, as you'd only have to wait a few seconds.
All this means is that P needs to manage their gas better and make templars earlier. As the maps get bigger, you can definitely warp templars in advance as you see them in the middle of the map.
And this isn't just about PvT, this is PvZ too. When the 2 races are having a near impossible time dealing with a certain unit, that's a red flag.
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I just had an idea, maybe they could change the upgrade to one where the HT receives additional energy for each pylon field it is warped in, ie. if you warp in an area with a lot of overlapping power-fields, you have the benefit of more templar energy available for use. This limits the abuse of insta-storms from proxied pylons, and rewards good base planning.
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the nerf is too huge, i like the idea jinro had with bw 63mana insstead of 75 then you cant do the instant warp in storm and you dont have to warp in so far ahead and just let them stand there useless...
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On February 27 2011 10:54 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 10:34 soullogik wrote:
won't the ghost upgrade be hugely overpowering in late game now. Ghosts take 45 secs (or somewhere in that region) to build. HT's take 5 secs to warp in..........
Ghosts can also pew pew.
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What people dont get is that when you start production of HT w/o upgrade and Ghost w/ upgrade at the same time, when Ghost is finished in T base and has 75 energy HT is already where is needed and has 72,5 energy. Same with Infestor (I dont remember production time here).
This will balance casters, as Protoss have Warp-In which is basically energy upgrade + teleport.
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On February 27 2011 11:56 Sek-Kuar wrote:
What people dont get is that when you start production of HT w/o upgrade and Ghost w/ upgrade at the same time, when Ghost is finished in T base and has 75 energy HT is already where is needed and has 72,5 energy. Same with Infestor (I dont remember production time here).
This will balance casters, as Protoss have Warp-In which is basically energy upgrade + teleport.
this man sees through the lies
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On February 27 2011 10:54 emythrel wrote:
Ghosts take 45 secs (or somewhere in that region) to build. HT's take 5 secs to warp in..........
No, HTs take 55 seconds to build, plus five seconds to warp-in. Thanks, try again.
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should probably buff storm dps or increase duration...
I really don't mind amulet being removed, but at least compensate toss in some way that doesn't let tiny MM balls take down entire expansions (MM and roach balls being entirely amazing in that respect).
Or fulfill my one wish since beta and give archons "frenzy," so they can't be slowed..
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On February 27 2011 12:01 lowercase wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 10:54 emythrel wrote:
Ghosts take 45 secs (or somewhere in that region) to build. HT's take 5 secs to warp in..........
No, HTs take 55 seconds to build, plus five seconds to warp-in. Thanks, try again.
Yeah and Thor's 250mm Strike Cannons have 8 DPS because it takes 2 sec to set, then 6 sec to deal 500 dmg and then 2 sec to unset and then there is 50 sec cooldown, so its weakest ability in game with 500 dmg over 60 sec...
And thus Thors are weakest units in game and need serious buff.
Seriously guys, start using brain, cooldown after Warp-In affect production rate, but not production time. It takes 5 seconds to make HT.
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Something people tend to forget when doing this whole ghosts vs HT discussion is the mineral sink.
Ghosts and HTs are both insanely expensive on gas which leaves a ton of minerals to be spend. Terran has to spend these minerals on marine which are 55 HP vs a 80dmg storm while protoss are spending theirs on zealots which are the best unit vs EMP due to the fact it has so little shield.
Ofc situations vary and you will often see terrans having the gas to spend all of their minerals on marauders due to be on 3 bases mining minerals and 4 mining gas etc.
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*Why not just reduce the damage of storm? Or increase the duration of it, but keeping the damage output the same?
Don't know if this has been suggested yet, but why doesn't Blizzard just make Khaydarin the way it was in BW? That is, it increases the maximum energy from 200 to 250 and casters start with 62 energy instead of 50. Hell you could even nix the first part of that. This way templars get an energy boost, yet still aren't able to warp in with storm, but still have less time to get to their first storm.
Why do they have to remove it completely? Did they forget how to balance their game? Why are they so quick to throw up the white flag and essentially admit that they wasted 6+ months of release time having us play with upgrades that they consider to be superfluous?
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EPT
