EPTLet high templars able to be chronoboosted so their energy goes up faster
A Bit of Simple Khaydarin Amulet Math - Page 15
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skrzmark
United States1528 Posts
Let high templars able to be chronoboosted so their energy goes up faster | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
Let high templars able to be chronoboosted so their energy goes up faster Thats a really neat idea, for protoss casters in general. I doubt it'd be balanced at all, but it's certainly interesting enough that it gives protoss something to cboost later on when they're on 3+ bases, and could be tweaked later. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On top of that, you have a huge timing window every time you blow your storms. Fail to win a battle decisively? You better pray you hit him as good as he hit you otherwise you can kiss your expansions good bye. Even a small force of MMM is more than enough to handle gateway warpins. Zealots barely get a hit off and stalkers will never kill a unit being healed. Basically, if you make a single mistake with templars, you are fucked. | ||
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JerKy
Korea (South)3013 Posts
Protoss players want the amulet upgrade for the purpose of being able to warp in HT that can cast a storm right away. From what I have seen, during engagements, after a HT's energy has been depleted, it will be turned into an archon. You rarely see protoss players saving spent HT's, and waiting the time to refill them: why bother when you can use resources to warp in new ones (5 seconds + resources for a new one that can storm vs 133 seconds) | ||
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
A: Have to keep one at every expansion to deal with drops, as opposed to warping them in. B: REALLY make effort to spread out our templars when dealing with terran midgame pushes, now we won't be able to recover from that money EMP. (but I predict most will just go for colossus instead) C: have to load up warp prisms with high templars ahead of time. So, from now on, I will just make many colossi in PvZ and watch zergs cry about it (surprised it wasn't addressed in this patch). And I will concentrate on making a few phoenix in PvT because air superiority will be needed to protect my colossi. Yay colossi! | ||
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IreScath
Canada521 Posts
On February 27 2011 13:48 jester- wrote: I don't understand why it is difficult to understand that it takes 5 seconds to build a HT. If you need a HT, you press your gateway bind (or hit w), then you warp in the HT(s), which takes 5 seconds. You then have a 50 second cool down which you can chronoboost, but you still had the initial units in 5 seconds. I propose a race: Lets play a 1v1 and see who wins... you get a ghost, I'll get a HT.. first out wins. I know I should be less sarcastic, but c'mon. Part of the reason of the HT's potency is what it takes to GET to them, which is more so than ghosts, and, allows a pretty decent window for T while toss techs to HT. I have a question for terran players. If amulet is put back in, and instead there is a Collosus nerf of similar 'weight' to amulet being removed... will you be as satisfied in the overall powershift? | ||
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TheLink
Australia2725 Posts
"We have to go storm to beat Terran bio" "We have to go bio because we can't beat Protoss with mech" Surely the obvious answer there is to upgrade the mech part and not weaken the storm part. Of course I don't know what a straight Thor buff or something would do to TvZ but there has to be an answer in there somewhere. | ||
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Artanias
Denmark40 Posts
I think people are going the wrong way by putting Ghosts and HTs up against eachother, you simply can't do it that way. If your in a fight, and the T gets some brilliant EMPs off, your gateway army will get annihilated by the MMM and you can't really fight back until your newly built HTs have gathered some energy for storms. You also can't compare to BW cause well, MM didn't crush gateway armies back then. The real question is, why does Protoss tier 3 need to be nerfed so Terran can go tier 1 >.< | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10383 Posts
Because Terran works differently; they have 2 major lines of tech, excluding Air which is sort of a third. They have Bio and Mech. Bio is lower, Mech is higher. Also, T works differently because, unlike Protoss needing a Twilight Council for Gateway upgrades, T needs add-ons, which makes teching easier. Technically Stim and etc. are Tier 1 but within their race they are not. Also, Medivacs are Tier 3, or 2.5 depending how you look at it. MM with Medivacs is much much less useful, because after a couple stims they're almost dead, and their longetivity is so low that their cost efficiency isn't so great anymore. The Charge buff will help, because now you will be able to deal with MM with Charge alone instead of now where Charge helps but can't be completely relied on like Colossi or HTs. So anyways, Tier 3 vs Tier 1 is quite inaccurate and I hope you are just exagerating. After all it's not like the Protoss army is 100% HT/Colossi. Similarly, a MM army is not 100% MM. There are usually medivacs and tanks, and sometimes ghosts/thors/ravens/etc. Edit: You are talking about drops so the last paragraph doesn't make much sense, but even with MM drops they have a Medivac that comes with it. Also, Bio is mobile and strong in smaller numbers but weak against Protoss lategame in large numbers due to Colossi/HTs. Similar to how Mutalisks need to be used to harass to capitalize their mobility, Bio needs to harass a lot and drop a lot to capitalize on their mobility and strength in small numbers. | ||
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ampson
United States2355 Posts
On February 27 2011 17:04 TheLink wrote: Rather than taking away the amulet can't we just strengthen other terran strategies? "We have to go storm to beat Terran bio" "We have to go bio because we can't beat Protoss with mech" Surely the obvious answer there is to upgrade the mech part and not weaken the storm part. Of course I don't know what a straight Thor buff or something would do to TvZ but there has to be an answer in there somewhere. I don't get why people are making this argument. Terran mech is actually awesome and a major headache for any protoss player to deal with. The thor push is still pretty strong even with the scv repair nerf, hellions are just deadly to mineral lines and zealots, tanks make ground sad, thors are pretty good for just straight killing stuff and defending your tanks from phoenix. Plus, banshees are GG if you went for a non-templar build and don't have any cannons built. Terran mech is quite strong vs protoss. | ||
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dark fury
Sweden426 Posts
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On February 26 2011 16:06 Ponyo wrote: Now its like having a ghost. Really doesn't seem as powerful lol. Think they should up its energy regen rate. But yea was a needed update, warping in storms was too powerful. ghosts do have the 25 energy upgrade though allowing them to come out of the barracks and immediatly beable to drop an emp | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On February 27 2011 17:34 dark fury wrote: if this goes live its going to make high templar the worst possible tech choice in the game for sure. One of the most gas heavy tech routes in the game for a unit who cannnot attack, is slower than almost all other units in the game and has to wait for 50 seconds to do damage. Who is gonna build this unit? so frusterating, maybe if we complain enough it wont go live, like when zergs started a huge ruckus because of fungal growth not being able to hit air ( wich was far more minor than this in my opinion) Templar tech tree is already not used nearly as often as it could be adding this nerf wich just make it not viable for most people as 1 good emp will ensure that the tech path you chose is useless, not everyone has the perfect micro to always keep their ht's spread out to avoid emp's. I was already weary of going high templar simply because of emp i thought it was too strong vs protoss in many cases, now its guaranteed that most people will just stick with collosus builds, how boring. | ||
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kochujang
Germany1226 Posts
On February 27 2011 17:40 willeesmalls wrote: Suggestion: Nerf the cast range of psi storm instead - problem solved? Lol, thats even worse. | ||
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cheesemaster
Canada1975 Posts
On February 26 2011 15:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I think this change is gonna be too big, P needs at least the old BW upgrade back (+50 mana, starts with 63 mana instead of 50). With HTs starting at 50, its like you cant even warp them in in advance vs units in the middle of the map. Its a bit extreme that you can just warp them in as you spot the dropship unloading in your base, but they need something. Jinro my terran idol! also that is a great idea 250 energy 63 mana would be totally reasonable and negate insta storms and leave a bigger mana pool for more storms possibly 3 storms from one HT im sold. I also think that taking away yet another upgrade from a protoss building leaves protoss with by far the least upgrades in the game wich means we have the least amount of ways to improve our existing units and that just sucks =( as the secret girls say, Jinro FIGHTING! | ||
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FlamingTurd
United States1059 Posts
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TheGiz
Canada708 Posts
Terran is so massively overpowered already, so much so that they can afford to build a production structure and actually float it around the map as a high-HP scout because they DON'T NEED IT. Terran tier 1 units are also able to compete against all tier 3 units in the game with upgrades and Medivac support. Let's also not ignore the MULE problem, which allows a down and out Terran with half the harvesters I have to bounce back and nearly win thanks to the insane mining power of these bastards. Protoss units on the other hand are slower and have less accessible upgrades that take longer to research (Blink/Charge). This is just so they can compete fairly against Terran tier 1. Protoss then requires tier 2 and 3 units in order to survive and potentially win, or else, basically Terran tier 1 + Medivacs will beat them. So why is it up to Blizzard to assist Terran in maintaining their boring strategy? How about some imagination besides MMM + Ghost (a rare addition in lower leagues)? | ||
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Artanias
Denmark40 Posts
On February 27 2011 17:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: @Artanias Because Terran works differently; they have 2 major lines of tech, excluding Air which is sort of a third. They have Bio and Mech. Bio is lower, Mech is higher. Also, T works differently because, unlike Protoss needing a Twilight Council for Gateway upgrades, T needs add-ons, which makes teching easier. Technically Stim and etc. are Tier 1 but within their race they are not. Also, Medivacs are Tier 3, or 2.5 depending how you look at it. MM with Medivacs is much much less useful, because after a couple stims they're almost dead, and their longetivity is so low that their cost efficiency isn't so great anymore. The Charge buff will help, because now you will be able to deal with MM with Charge alone instead of now where Charge helps but can't be completely relied on like Colossi or HTs. So anyways, Tier 3 vs Tier 1 is quite inaccurate and I hope you are just exagerating. After all it's not like the Protoss army is 100% HT/Colossi. Similarly, a MM army is not 100% MM. There are usually medivacs and tanks, and sometimes ghosts/thors/ravens/etc. Edit: You are talking about drops so the last paragraph doesn't make much sense, but even with MM drops they have a Medivac that comes with it. Also, Bio is mobile and strong in smaller numbers but weak against Protoss lategame in large numbers due to Colossi/HTs. Similar to how Mutalisks need to be used to harass to capitalize their mobility, Bio needs to harass a lot and drop a lot to capitalize on their mobility and strength in small numbers. @ Yoshi Kirishima Alright then lets say the tier 3 units are the support units. I'd even go so far enough to agreeing that technically, Medivacs are tier 3 which is insane considering how easy they are to get compared to Colossi and HTs The point still stands that we are building the counter to YOUR unit composition, why does our counter need a nerf then? I mean its not like i complain about mass tanks if i went Stalkers/Colossi. The charge buff will help, but there is no way we can reliably use that alone to defeat MMM, i've had a mass gateway army with upgrades, charge, force fields and guardian shield get annihilated by my enemy who just went MMM and stimmed his way to victory, guy didn't even have to kite. The dps from stimmed Marines and Marauders combined with Medivacs healing is simply too much to handle without Storm or Colossi, there is no way around that. And why is no one considering simply going Mech? I might be forgetting a ton of stuff but it seems very few people even consider going this route, a friend of mine has been doing this against me, and i pretty much had to abandon a lot of storms in favor of Mass Chargelots/Immortals, only bringing 3-4 HTs with me just to add a bit of AE to the clumped up tanks, and in this instance it wasn't the storms that were the deciding factor, but the Immortals/Chargelots. Same thing if you look at the Mvp v Squirtle game, the reason Mvps heavy mech died later on wasn't the storms, it was the Chargelots and the Immortals. Maybe I'm not high level enough(about low Diamond, granted my bonus pool is gigantic and i keep facing 2800-3000 Diamonds so i figure I'm supposed to be up there) to even talk about this. You say that Bio needs to be mobile to stay on top of Protoss lategame, just like Mutas for Zerg. The thing is tho Zerg doesn't use Muta/Ling through the entire game, they use the Muta/Ling to gain map control and resources to switch to Brood Lords or Ultras, and use those to finish the game somehow. So if we are to follow that comparison you are basically asking your the Terrans equivalent to Muta/Ling to somehow defeat the Protoss lategame army? Or maybe i am missing something here. EDIT: Forgot one thing, to people in general: You claim that Storm drops are insane and does a fuckton of damage, well have you ever been on the recieving end of a Blue Flame hellion drop? It is way more effective and not as costly as going for a storm drop. Considering theres a big chance you want that medivac anyway, while a Warp Prism is something Protoss don't always go for, not to mention it mostly has that single use ONLY, harrasment, while a Medivac obviously is used for keeping your MM army alive. | ||
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bennyaus
Australia1833 Posts
On February 27 2011 17:59 TheGiz wrote: I don't understand this nerf at all. Terran is so massively overpowered already, so much so that they can afford to build a production structure and actually float it around the map as a high-HP scout because they DON'T NEED IT. Terran tier 1 units are also able to compete against all tier 3 units in the game with upgrades and Medivac support. Let's also not ignore the MULE problem, which allows a down and out Terran with half the harvesters I have to bounce back and nearly win thanks to the insane mining power of these bastards. Protoss units on the other hand are slower and have less accessible upgrades that take longer to research (Blink/Charge). This is just so they can compete fairly against Terran tier 1. Protoss then requires tier 2 and 3 units in order to survive and potentially win, or else, basically Terran tier 1 + Medivacs will beat them. So why is it up to Blizzard to assist Terran in maintaining their boring strategy? How about some imagination besides MMM + Ghost (a rare addition in lower leagues)? I'm a random player, and you're biased. Point 1: We float the structure cause we need it for the starport, but most of the time choose not to use the units out of it as they are incredibly hard-countered by immortals (robo is common in games), or void rays. Point 2 : I am pretty sure that Stalkers cost effectively beat BCs, and Zealots cost effectively beat Thors. Protoss has no complaint about their Tier 1, only zerg does as they don't have anti-air although.... Queen cost effectively beat BC, and Zergling or Roach cost effectively beats Thor. Point 3 : Protoss can chrono-boost probes and gain a worker advantage, which puts them even with a Muled Terran economy. In addition, chrono-boost serves other purposes such as speeding up production of your army (which you failed to mention that Terran is actually terribly slow at doing) or upgrades. Point 4: Terran Tier 1 + Medviacs is the same as Protoss Tier 1 + Support T2/3 unit. What a ridiculous point. Similarly, Terran Tier 1 + Ghosts is the same as Protoss T1+ Support T2/3 unit. Point 5: Whilst Blink and Charge are required to beat an upgraded T1 army with only T1 units as P, the Terran T2-3 units are weaker compared to the Protoss equivalents. Relax, Protoss is actually fine and maybe even overpowered in PvT. | ||
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