|
On February 28 2011 02:55 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 02:42 -Mav- wrote:
Incontrol also said on his stream, that probably ghosts/EMPs also need a nerf when the amulet gets removed. And I completely agree, now there remains no justification whatsoever for "instant" EMPs when the amulet is gone.
I can agree with removing the mobius reactor if amulet is removed. Its only fair. Ghost build time: 40sec. HT time to build and get 75 energy: 44 + 5 = 49sec. If the ghosts had this upgrade removed, it would take 84 seconds to have an EMP after you start training a ghost. Is that really "only fair"?
considering the tech investment, it's fair as fuck.
|
To make this balanced, Ghost actually has to be cheaper. Take EMP off and make it an upgrade. Make Khadryian different as opposed to completely removed (Either up to 250 energy or start with 63). Boom balanced. BW strikes again.
|
On February 28 2011 03:01 0mar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 02:55 Bagi wrote:On February 28 2011 02:42 -Mav- wrote:
Incontrol also said on his stream, that probably ghosts/EMPs also need a nerf when the amulet gets removed. And I completely agree, now there remains no justification whatsoever for "instant" EMPs when the amulet is gone.
I can agree with removing the mobius reactor if amulet is removed. Its only fair. Ghost build time: 40sec. HT time to build and get 75 energy: 44 + 5 = 49sec. If the ghosts had this upgrade removed, it would take 84 seconds to have an EMP after you start training a ghost. Is that really "only fair"? considering the tech investment, it's fair as fuck.
Snide comments aside, I really think this is the way blizzard is looking at it. Both units take roughly the same amount of time to get their spell out, the other just builds faster and has to regenerate its energy instead. Both are forced to plan and play more proactively instead of just countering the enemy army with an unit that takes 5 seconds to build.
|
considering the tech investment, it's fair as fuck.
Ghosts costs 100 minerals more.....
|
Removing Khydarin might be a good idea, but I think HT starting energy should be slightly higher, like 65, or something like that. Storms would still be viable, but would have to wait 15 seconds before using them.
|
Just have to think more positive.
If this goes through, I'm thinking of making a staging area for HT's in my base and leave them out of my main army while they are getting energy. Works only when you are not in panic mode and have time to wait.
You can think of it as warp in time + 45 secs = new build time for High Templars.
What if your base gets attacked when HT's are chilling at the staging area? Well.. morph to archons I guess.
|
I'm less for removing the Amulet, and more for just adding a cooldown to Psi Storm upon HT warp-in. This would actually let Blizzard have fun with numbers for future balancing purposes. Heck, we could even go nuts and let HTs warping in from a chrono boosted warp gate have their storm cooldown sped up, but that's just getting complicated.
|
Thoughts:
There's only two places where the amulet matters... defensive reinforcement vs drops or dying units AND head on army collisions. To handle drops, it forces some resource re-allocation away from the main army, specifically:
1) leave that templar there / or phoenixes patrolling to flag down medivacs
2) DTs/zealots for warp in instead
food for thought is: to what extent will the charge upgrade (for hitting fleeing units) reduce the effectiveness of MM in small numbers? maybe that will help
as everyone else here is mentioning, there absolutely needs to be a templar buff of some sort relative to 50 energy. either it costs less to cast or there's a starting energy upgrade.
i'm in favor of keeping the khaydarin amulet, but changing it so that it BRINGS DOWN THE COST of storm from 75 to 60.
you STILL can't warp them in instantly, but in head-on army collisions you should have the same # of storms per templar (i.e. 2-3). of course, this does mean the theoretical maximum number of storms per templar is higher with 3 instead of 2.
and because of the lower cost of cating, EMP becomes less of a big deal and doesn't require a nerf.
|
On February 28 2011 03:29 SeanH wrote:
I'm less for removing the Amulet, and more for just adding a cooldown to Psi Storm upon HT warp-in. This would actually let Blizzard have fun with numbers for future balancing purposes. Heck, we could even go nuts and let HTs warping in from a chrono boosted warp gate have their storm cooldown sped up, but that's just getting complicated.
this works too accomplishing the same thing.
|
On February 28 2011 03:28 Siwa wrote:
Just have to think more positive.
If this goes through, I'm thinking of making a staging area for HT's in my base and leave them out of my main army while they are getting energy. Works only when you are not in panic mode and have time to wait.
You can think of it as warp in time + 45 secs = new build time for High Templars.
What if your base gets attacked when HT's are chilling at the staging area? Well.. morph to archons I guess.
The problem with this is that it would make it extremely easy for a decent terran to load up a medivac, drop your base, snipe the templar, load up his units and fly away before you can respond. You'd need to have units off the front lines and sitting in your base for the sole purpose of guarding your templar for 44 ingame seconds so that they can use storm once. Morphing them to archons or building several cannons would be a solution I suppose, but it's still a fair amount of resources dedicated to making sure already expensive units(accounting for the cost of the templar, the archives, storm, and the time investment) that may or may not be rendered relatively useless by an EMP.
|
with no amulet, templar will be terrible. blizzard has already hurt protoss enough with the new maps (slag pits? more like lol pits.) maps aside, I can see where they are coming from wanting to make a change, as protoss tends to be the strongest race in late game, but completely killing one of the power units is too much. they should lower how much energy you get off of amulet. If it was +15 instead of +25 energy, you could warp in, and not have to wait an eternity to storm, but also not immediate. HTs will be like reapers after the nitro pack nerf. basically useless
|
It's funny how people are still comparing HT with Ghosts when clearly their roles have nothing to do with one another. Have you ever seen a terran have a ghost for defense at his base?
In a zealot HT army, which are the dps units? - HT. Zealots mostly mineral sink and tanking. What about Ghost MMM ? All of them except medivacs.
Which of T or P has drops with potential, and usually do, to doing more damage? Terran --> which means toss needs to be able to defend those in some way or compensate in another.
Stop comparing those two units. If you want races to be balanced you have to look at them as a whole, and those units' roles for the race, not doing pointless comparisons like that. Ghost doesn't have a defensive importance at all, whereas a lot of toss defense aggainst drops rely on wasting minerals on zealots while they die to dropped MM and a HT or two to kill the units in the drop as fast as possible, or they will have a lot of buildings go down really fast.
Terran doesn't have this problem, because you can lift up buildings, stalkers dps suck, zealots can be run away from, and will probably never return to the warp prism when dropped as they are melee and have to run away from safe distance to deal damage, same being with dt's, which are usually warped in to do damage and die. Terrans can and usually drop, do damage, if they see units coming, they pop up, and run away with free damage. How is that fair? It isn't. Thats why the warp in balances it out, since the terran then still does damage, but also pays a price as it should.
In this sense, toss without the amulet is just asking to be freely dropped, with few consequences to the dropper, since the can attack, do some damage and go back with only damage from stim, which will be readily reverted back by the medivacs once they drop the units to their main army again.
|
I think this change is completely retarded and if this change goes live PvX is going to be a colossifest.
Templar is already a difficult and expensive thing to tech up to in PvT since you're forced to get a robo unless you feel like risking a BO loss.
Whats the point of risking such an investment in going Templar, if it takes over half a minute before you can even use them ONCE, then they are spent and you morph them into an Archon, which is a terrible unit. The people comparing the HT with Ghost is really not making a fair comparison, because the actual mechanics of the units are very different, as well as the tech path to get either unit.
I agree that the ability to warp in HTs anywhere on the map is very powerful, and Protoss late game in general is very strong. However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
A better change would be to either reduce the damage of Psi Storm or reduce the amount of energy gained by the Khaydarin Amulet upgrade to 20 or something. Removing it completely is way overnerfing it.
|
On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote:
However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone.
Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different?
To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
|
On February 28 2011 04:00 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote:
However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone. Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different? To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
Because other lategame units don't need to sit in your base or in the middle of your army while they construct, during which they're completely vulnerable? You also seem to be overlooking that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, and you have a second to move out before it actually starts doing damage.
|
has anyone noticed that blizzard's latest policy has become: it's too hard to balance, remove it entirely. >.<
i 100% agree that the amulet should be reverted to its broodwar state (a slight increase in overall starting energy, with maxed energy increased to 250). This gives an incentive to build them early so their energy builds up and we wouldn't have to wait so long to storm once we make them. Though storms were so much more powerful in bw 
|
On February 28 2011 04:03 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 04:00 Bagi wrote:On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote:
However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone. Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different? To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh? Because other lategame units don't need to sit in your base or in the middle of your army while they construct, during which they're completely vulnerable? You also seem to be overlooking that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, and you have a second to move out before it actually starts doing damage.
That can also be a good thing, since you can always use the HT for a feedback or turn in them into archons if necessary. If you were building ghosts, you'd have nothing.
And please, dont start calling storm weak when obviously its not. Its not even relevant to the argument.
|
Okay, so warp in storm doesn't just affect drops, now comming from a Terran player here, but, I find it extremely hard to push against a toss lategame. I can out macro, out micro and out play a toss player but I cant push because of the fact that the toss player will have 5 storms waiting for me right when i start to go and im out of EMP energy, because I waste all of it in the battle. Yes I agree that this nerf is a bit harsh, but it is necesarry the lategame TvP is broken right now.
|
On February 28 2011 04:00 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote:
However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone. Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different? To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh?
That's the most ridiculous argument so far. You have totally disregarded cooldown, and the fact thal all gateway units have the same warp in time, whether they are tier 1 like zealots or tier 3 like dt's or ht's, and that by making Ht's which have a considerable cooldown, not many more units can be produced if needed. Also disregarded how each race works, and how toss needs it to be that way to be able to defend something they can't reciprocate on (terran drops). Also forgotten about how costly and long it is to tech to that unit, and how gas intensive it is, making it hard to make other kinds of gas costly units.
I could also say terrible design is having a race that can go from 100 to 200 in less than 1 minute. But i won't because like you said to each, their own, and for each race they need their powerful aspects to be able to compete with the powerful aspects of the other 2 races.
I could also say that it's terrible design that 1 thor can anyhilate several times its cost in mutas, but i won't because terran needs it that way, and thor was made to counter them. Same with tanks and banes, same with colossus and marines. And same with HT and bio. The stimmed marine and marauder are extreme units, because of their huge dps. They need a good counter, because they wreck havoc really fast as well, and the toss can't afford to dance back and force with their main armies, because the time it takes for that their robotics bay or their nexus wen't down.
|
On February 28 2011 04:07 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 04:03 Daralii wrote:On February 28 2011 04:00 Bagi wrote:On February 28 2011 03:57 Torumfroll wrote:
However, this change will make the matchups incredibly boring, because having HTs waiting around in your base for 40 sec until they can actually use their storm is a terrible game design and is hardly fun for anyone. Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different? To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh? Because other lategame units don't need to sit in your base or in the middle of your army while they construct, during which they're completely vulnerable? You also seem to be overlooking that storm only does 80 damage over 4 seconds, and you have a second to move out before it actually starts doing damage. That can also be a good thing, since you can always use the HT for a feedback or turn in them into archons if necessary. If you were building ghosts, you'd have nothing. And please, dont start calling storm weak when obviously its not. Its not even relevant to the argument.
Fair enough.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
