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Beatus
Canada101 Posts
It's a huge hit for protoss but you can still cast feedback as soon as you warp in the templar so I think it is "ok-ish" Will see soon but protoss will have to be a lot more carefull about their templars and make sure they are really well spread so one ghost don't emp all of them at once. Thats why I think it is good for the game. It will force protoss to be better now. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On February 28 2011 05:24 Durp wrote: The baneling also decimates bio armies. In my opinion, the root of this problem is that using ghosts to combat high templars is harder than splitting marines vs banelings; and thus requires whining rather than trying to figure out how to beat it. Stimmed bio can avoid storms. Warp-in storms are very effective, yes, but one mis-storm or a well-dodged storm and suddenly Protoss can do nothing to those units until a. his army returns to the base b. another warp cycle. The amount of damage marauders can do in that time is ridiculous as well. Learn to micro away from storms rather than to whine at their imbalance. impossible to fully dodge wellplaced storm, running around means wasted stimtime, running around means less damage and free hits for the P units. not that it matters. storm is fine. storm evrywhere on demand is not. if you dont see how flawed storm on warpin is then really you should try to see the game as a whole instead of the limited "man this makes X harder. i call bullshit!" attitude. if P then suddenly is too weak lategame (which i doubt) without it then sure change stuff around. but the change is good for the game overall no matter how you look at it. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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Tyree
1508 Posts
How powerfull can the thing be, when the best Toss players in the world rather go Colossi, even if they know their opponnent will get Corruptors and Vikings? Its a bad change, if anything Blizzard should promote players going Templar path instead of the usual, boring Robo. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
If bliz did this to BW there would be no irradiate casting on friendly units and there would be no dark swarm. | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
EVEN worse is the fact that the Templar's defensive utility is pretty much GONE, seeing as yoou'd have to leave valuable, and vulnerable, spellcasters in seemingly random locations in an effort to defend them, while the main bulk of your army is worse for it. | ||
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danielsan
Romania399 Posts
On February 28 2011 05:02 Daralii wrote: 40 second warpgate cooldown + 5 second warp in time + 44 seconds to build enough energy. lol, careful there, you can literally break the universe and possibly make it implode with such stupid logic. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 28 2011 05:19 mishimaBeef wrote: I enjoy watching people disarm faulty logic. :D Zealots and stalkers take 0 minutes to build. OP! Stop trying to use the facade of logic to argue with the reality of protoss mechanics. Assuming you are keeping up on macro the legendary "warp in storm" is a fiction. The reality is that you probably just warped in a full load of stalkers/sentries/zealots and need to wait another 30, 40 seconds before warping in your templars. And do not compare a templar to other late game units. The reason that it is so "cheap" (50/150 vs. 300/200 of colossus) is because they are not just a glass cannon, they are realistically no more reusable than a baneling. After a HT casts storm its only realistic use in the future is as an archon. | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On February 28 2011 05:47 cLutZ wrote: Zealots and stalkers take 0 minutes to build. OP! Stop trying to use the facade of logic to argue with the reality of protoss mechanics. Assuming you are keeping up on macro the legendary "warp in storm" is a fiction. The reality is that you probably just warped in a full load of stalkers/sentries/zealots and need to wait another 30, 40 seconds before warping in your templars. And do not compare a templar to other late game units. The reason that it is so "cheap" (50/150 vs. 300/200 of colossus) is because they are not just a glass cannon, they are realistically no more reusable than a baneling. After a HT casts storm its only realistic use in the future is as an archon. and this is different from infestors and ghosts in what way? and please dont say now "but ghosts shoots!" since that is totally irrelevant and much less powerful then archons. also who cares about warpgate times or whatever. the problem is that you can instantly have storm anywhere. which is a bad mechanic and makes alot of stuff stupidly easy (and in some rare cases OP). | ||
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syrupychinadian
112 Posts
The other option(colossus) can AOE immediately, is infinitely reusable, and deals "guaranteed" damage. Without amulet, there is zero reason not to go colossus. And now there are zero options for a protoss to transition out of it. As the counter to colossus still counters carrier and mothership. Protoss matches will revolve around the colossus even more than it does now. One side throwing everything to kill the colo, while the protoss throws everything in front of his opponent's everything to protect the colo. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 28 2011 05:50 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: and this is different from infestors and ghosts in what way? and please dont say now "but ghosts shoots!" since that is totally irrelevant and much less powerful then archons. also who cares about warpgate times or whatever. the problem is that you can instantly have storm anywhere. which is a bad mechanic and makes alot of stuff stupidly easy (and in some rare cases OP). Templars are not like ghosts at all, they are like ghosts who's only ability was calling down nukes. Also, you feedback hawks are hilarious. When was the last time you saw a medivac with even 100 energy on it? Feedback was useful in PvT when you could thrash Thors, and the BC buff will have to be pretty huge for it to be useful again. | ||
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pluvos
39 Posts
On February 28 2011 05:50 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: and this is different from infestors and ghosts in what way? and please dont say now "but ghosts shoots!" since that is totally irrelevant and much less powerful then archons. also who cares about warpgate times or whatever. the problem is that you can instantly have storm anywhere. which is a bad mechanic and makes alot of stuff stupidly easy (and in some rare cases OP). can u stop perpetuating the LIE that protoss can "instantly have storm anywhere", its such a crock of shit and you either know it or are ignorant. first of all its only the first wave that gets created fast (and its not instant its 5 seconds ) becuase warpgate actually have cooldown so the production in the end is the same as any other structure. secondly warping in requires either a pylon wich requires a probe, or a warp prism. IE its basicly a drop mechanic of sorts that every race has in different ways, and since most race drops are unique they both have advantages and disadvantages (terran for example gets a free medic with it making the drop stronger than the supply it carries). and a blueflame hellion drop is not only cheaper but arguably more effective than storm. if storm was so imba with amulet why is 90% of all games when protoss needs aoe based on colossus play? the truth is that amu storm required the terran to actually counter and pay attention instead of 1a with bio the entire fucking game, and to me thats a good thing. | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On February 28 2011 05:50 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: and this is different from infestors and ghosts in what way? and please dont say now "but ghosts shoots!" since that is totally irrelevant and much less powerful then archons. also who cares about warpgate times or whatever. the problem is that you can instantly have storm anywhere. which is a bad mechanic and makes alot of stuff stupidly easy (and in some rare cases OP). Ghosts can run back after you EMP, you can load them into medivacs and escape if your battle doesn't go well. The problem with retreating HT is that they are slow at 1.87 speed. Secondly, retreating as Protoss is usually not an option because of concussive shells + stim. You can lose 10+ units on a retreat because concussive will snare that many units in a decent sized battle. So once the battle starts, you see it through the end because retreating results in the same number of losses for the Protoss player but almost none for the Terran. Terran should realize how stupid powerful factory units are. You think maruader vs stalker is a joke? Try out thors vs stalkers. A single thor can take out 3 stalkers easy. Thors 3-shot stalkers. Add in some upgrades and a couple SCVs repairing and you can easily take out 7 stalkers. Strike Cannons means you can wipe out the supposed counter in immortals. The biggest thing I fear in late-game PvT is 6-7 Thors backing up an MMM ball. Storm is worthless against thors since it takes more than 5 to kill even one. With some meat in front, such as marauders, zealots are crap. 1on1, an immortal barely beats a thor in a straight up fight. As the battles get bigger, the immortal gets worse because thors fire faster, have longer range and have strike cannons. Mech is an underappreciated aspect of Terran play. Hell, I don't even see sensor towers in 80% of my PvTs and that thing is a fucking legal map hack. You know why? There's no real pressure to innovate as Terran. MMM works 95% of the time, except when the game drags on to the point where Protoss is fielding two T3 units with full upgrades. I mean, the core composition is at T1.5 against T1.5 counters and Terran can still hang with that. That's how ridiculous PvT can be. On February 28 2011 05:33 Tyree wrote: Set aside everything as a NON Protoss player, if the Amulet upgrade is the most powerfull upgrade in the game, then how come in 10 games, Protoss would go Colossi in 8 of them against any given opponnent? How powerfull can the thing be, when the best Toss players in the world rather go Colossi, even if they know their opponnent will get Corruptors and Vikings? Its a bad change, if anything Blizzard should promote players going Templar path instead of the usual, boring Robo. There's no way to get storm off 2 gas or even 4 gas and still be safe from any one of the instant-win builds Terran can do. Just getting a single storm out is close to half a geyser in investment before you see any pay-off. And even then, if you don't win engagements decisively, you are super behind because 150/templar gets expensive. Templar really shine when you have 6+ gas supporting it. | ||
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Ghost Prototype
United States20 Posts
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MojoJojo
Canada20 Posts
I mean, this makes toss go collosi every single MU. It makes econ harass limited to dts which are costly as fuck for the amount of damage they do. It makes controlling high templar really fucking hard cause ghosts will rape the shit out of a high templar-based toss army. If blizzard really sticks with this nerf, that's fucked... High templar are the SLOWEST ground units. Taking off the upgrade makes them immobile beyond belief | ||
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Sworn
Canada920 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Not having storm warp in anymore makes templar WAY more vulnerable to EMP. Now only the templars you bring in the beginning of a fight can storm and any reinforcement templars are useless for the fight itself. Templars are already a bit narrow to the point they only see real usage in PvT but now that will be even less. Even worse is that one of the few harass options possible for P, storm dropping, is now no longer an effective tool as you have to wait way too long. I'm fine with a small templar nerf or even a colossi nerf or anything that will make P lategame less imbalanced but just do NOT touch amulet please. It provides for more fun and more possible options instead of being forced to build up a colossus ball all the time. Balance is one thing but keeping FUN things in the game is even more important. If storm and amulet are truly that imbalanced just make templar slightly more expensive or even change storm to do damage slightly slower but just don't take away amulet. Instead of taking away fun and good upgrades, get rid of the crap blizzard like the raven upgrades or medivac energy upgrade! | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:23 Bagi wrote: I'm not disputing that racial identity is a bad thing, but what happens when one such mechanic is clearly too strong? Should we just suck it up on the basis that its a part of the warpgate and hence balanced? I'm not arguing zealots and stalkers are overpowered, or the warpgate mechanic. But lategame protoss clearly is extremely strong right now, and most of that falls on the templar being an extremely easy way to defending from everything. Just because other races have their strong points does not mean imbalance cannot exist. Protoss do not need 5 second templars to kill bio. Storms will still be there, storms will kill bio, but they will act like any other higher tier unit: you will have to play proactively and use your few units smartly, instead of bruteforcing more and more templars and simply overwhelming your opponent. The way templars are now is not smart play, its not fun to watch, and it does not make sense from a balance point of view. Not fun to watch? Are you serious? Storms are so great to watch, energizes the crowd much better than colossus 1a'ing. I will give you some insight into higher level PvT, maybe you will understand a bit better what the situation is. The protoss NEEDS to get storms off, or gateway army melts so fast. And how this usually plays out is a standoff between ghosts and templar, each trying to feedback/emp the other. There is an obvious defender's advantage here because they can spread out their units much better. But the amulet upgrade allows protoss to be aggressive. Most if not all high temps will be EMP'ed in the attack, but new ones warped in will have enough energy for storm. Now that this is impossible and defending drops harder, we are likely to see a turtle fest, obviously a pain to watch. So playing "proactively and smartly" is just a euphemism for camping your expos and chokes for 50minutes. PvT is a balanced match up. Late game currently looks like it favors the templar-tech protoss, but maybe terrans just need to change up and learn new counters instead of staying bio all game. Terrans have whined about phoenix colossus before, but it was eventually figured out without the need of a nerf. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
This way toss can still have storm a bit faster(but not instantly), if they upgrade it and keeping templars alive is rewarded. | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:39 Torumfroll wrote: You didnt even get the point. Yes late game units should take long time to build. I have never claimed otherwise. The Warp Gate making the HT gets a 45 second cooldown, plus the 5 seconds it takes to actually takes to warp in. Compare this to the Colossus. It has a 75 second build time, but listen to this; it can actually DO SOMETHING when its done. Meanwhile, your HT is picking flowers in your natural for 40 seconds while waiting for the energy for a single Psi Storm, only to get EMPd when its time to hit the battlefield. Thus making it a ~90 second build time unit that is EXTREMELY fragile and a terrible investment in both time and resources compared with the Colossus. And that is terrible game design Maybe you could name another unit that takes 90 seconds to "build" that is as fragile as the HT will be if this change goes live? Ok i am going to ignore that you said HTs are less useless because they are just going to get insta-EMPd .. Insta-storm was obviously seen as a problem by Blizzard; they felt it didn't fit with the design they had in mind - but just blanky removing the Amulet and assuming that would fix things is a little underthought. I agree the cooldown plus energy regen rate seems a bit slow to get storm out; there needs to be some form of upgrade. But you are forgetting that the 45 second cool down on the Warp Gate only occurs AFTER you warp in a HT. So there is no cooldown on that initial HT which was the problem with the insta-storm. I agree the regen rate upgrade sounds pretty cool and would have the future benefits like other upgrades.. Back to the drawing board.. | ||
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