EPTA Bit of Simple Khaydarin Amulet Math - Page 18
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:10 Apolo wrote: That's the most ridiculous argument so far. You have totally disregarded cooldown, and the fact thal all gateway units have the same warp in time, whether they are tier 1 like zealots or tier 3 like dt's or ht's, and that by making Ht's which have a considerable cooldown, not many more units can be produced if needed. Also disregarded how each race works, and how toss needs it to be that way to be able to defend something they can't reciprocate on (terran drops). Also forgotten about how costly and long it is to tech to that unit, and how gas intensive it is, making it hard to make other kinds of gas costly units. I could also say terrible design is having a race that can go from 100 to 200 in less than 1 minute. But i won't because like you said to each, their own, and for each race they need their powerful aspects to be able to compete with the powerful aspects of the other 2 races. I could also say that it's terrible design that 1 thor can anyhilate several times its cost in mutas, but i won't because terran needs it that way, and thor was made to counter them. Same with tanks and banes, same with colossus and marines. And same with HT and bio. The stimmed marine and marauder are extreme units, because of their huge dps. They need a good counter, because they wreck havoc really fast as well, and the toss can't afford to dance back and force with their main armies, because the time it takes for that their robotics bay or their nexus wen't down. I'm not disputing that racial identity is a bad thing, but what happens when one such mechanic is clearly too strong? Should we just suck it up on the basis that its a part of the warpgate and hence balanced? I'm not arguing zealots and stalkers are overpowered, or the warpgate mechanic. But lategame protoss clearly is extremely strong right now, and most of that falls on the templar being an extremely easy way to defending from everything. Just because other races have their strong points does not mean imbalance cannot exist. Protoss do not need 5 second templars to kill bio. Storms will still be there, storms will kill bio, but they will act like any other higher tier unit: you will have to play proactively and use your few units smartly, instead of bruteforcing more and more templars and simply overwhelming your opponent. The way templars are now is not smart play, its not fun to watch, and it does not make sense from a balance point of view. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
Also to the above poster, protoss has the weakest low tier units and the fast ones (stalkers) are 100% countered by marauders. Zerg has creep to be mobile when defending against drops, terrans have mm with stim that do well too and without amulet protoss has warpin that do very bad against bio. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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mierin
United States4946 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:24 karpo wrote: Just watched sanZenith vs OGsEnsnare, and marauder drops would have won ensnare the game like 10 times if it wasn't for warp in storms. I'd argue that his warp-in DT's were much more effective in sending the marauders packing. ...and about the creep, that's kinda funny. I'd much rather be able to teleport a few roaches to any mineral line of my choosing rather than have my army halfway across the map get a speed bonus running back  | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:23 Bagi wrote: Protoss do not need 5 second templars to kill bio. Storms will still be there, storms will kill bio, but they will act like any other higher tier unit: you will have to play proactively and use your few units smartly, instead of bruteforcing more and more templars and simply overwhelming your opponent. The way templars are now is not smart play, its not fun to watch, and it does not make sense from a balance point of view. exactly. people act like this would break templars when infact their power is exactly the same in the vast majority of scenarios , you just have to play ,plan and manage better. it increases the skill involved which is a good thing and shuts down a very stupid part of the warpin mechanic (one is storm on demand, other is how it ignores rushdistance early game). it might be too much so some middle thing (like the bw like upgrade many have suggested) might be a better solution. but the ability to warpin storm whenever wherever needs to go. | ||
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GhostBusters
United States198 Posts
How many times have you heard Artosis go OMG THE STORMS?!!?!?!?! How many times have you heard him say OMG COLLOSI LASERS! i think storms add more excitement to the game you can tell the bio ball wants to run away from it ect. So if they are taking it out b/c of it being OP i'd just nerf storm in a way or something, IF that but imo i thought storm was fine. | ||
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Torumfroll
290 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:00 Bagi wrote: Most lategame units take 40sec or longer to build. Is that terrible game design? Why is HT so drastically different? To me, terrible game design is having an unit that can smash entire armies build in 5 seconds, when every other unit with such qualities takes 10 times as long to build. But each to their own, huh? You didnt even get the point. Yes late game units should take long time to build. I have never claimed otherwise. The Warp Gate making the HT gets a 45 second cooldown, plus the 5 seconds it takes to actually takes to warp in. Compare this to the Colossus. It has a 75 second build time, but listen to this; it can actually DO SOMETHING when its done. Meanwhile, your HT is picking flowers in your natural for 40 seconds while waiting for the energy for a single Psi Storm, only to get EMPd when its time to hit the battlefield. Thus making it a ~90 second build time unit that is EXTREMELY fragile and a terrible investment in both time and resources compared with the Colossus. And that is terrible game design Maybe you could name another unit that takes 90 seconds to "build" that is as fragile as the HT will be if this change goes live? | ||
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ExoD
United States37 Posts
but seriously, warp-in storm was the main reason people bothered with HT. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
 Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that? + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://art.edoom.de/images/Lustiges/my%20brain%20is%20full%20of%20fuck.jpg) | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
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danielsan
Romania399 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:39 Torumfroll wrote: You didnt even get the point. Yes late game units should take long time to build. I have never claimed otherwise. The Warp Gate making the HT gets a 45 second cooldown, plus the 5 seconds it takes to actually takes to warp in. coincidentally, that's how long it takes a ghost to train and have him somewhere in the field. | ||
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CurLy[]
United States759 Posts
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Snorkle
United States1648 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:48 danielsan wrote: coincidentally, that's how long it takes a ghost to train and have him somewhere in the field. Also please note the respective places a ghost academy and Templar Archives fit into the races respective tech trees. Ghosts come out much much earlier in a game than HT. If protoss could reasonably have HT within 8 minutes I would say yes, its fine that we have to wait 40 seconds after we build them to have a storm ready but as things will stand after the patch, DT's will be the new "warp in defense" of choice imo. note: I am pretty sure ghosts can be out much before 8 minutes (see TLOwnage where he goes rax>ghost academy by 23 food). Imagine if protoss could have HT at 23 food into the game? I will gladly trade my amulet for that ability. | ||
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Torumfroll
290 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now? Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that? + Show Spoiler + Way to ignore 99% of my post smartass. My point still stands, there is NO CHANCE IN HELL that using HTs instead of Colossus against a heavy bio army is worth the trouble of teching up to a unit that is worthless for 40 seconds on the battlefield. | ||
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:43 Bagi wrote: 90 second build time? Really now? Oh man... I don't know where even to begin. How about this: if you have one warpgate constantly churning out templars, you get a new storm every 45sec. How do you get 90 seconds from that? + Show Spoiler + 40 second warpgate cooldown + 5 second warp in time + 44 seconds to build enough energy. | ||
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42x10
United States62 Posts
On February 28 2011 04:46 0mar wrote: The problem is that gateway units SUCK. I'm all for a colossus/HT nerf if gateway units can actually deal with MMM or Roach/Hydra. Right now, if you don't have Tier 3, you lose against a decent sized MM ball. You don't even need medivacs. Medivacs just ensure that you lose like 5 units total. Pretty much this. I guess terran players have never had to fight a full medivac drop in their base with the terrible T1 Protoss units. It basically goes like this: Dedicate half of your army to it, or lose. No matter how many units you warp in (unless you have like 20 warpgates) the marines/marauders can rape them while healing. Normally they don't even lose any units if you send less than 10/12 units at them because those drops are incredibly strong. And then once they kill all your warped in units they can rape any building of their choice in just a couple seconds and fly away again. If you leave templars sitting in your expansions, it just makes your army that much weaker. Not only in supply but because of the fact that you only have so much gas and allocating it to bases that may not even need it only means the giant terran tank/marine/marauder/thor ball rolls you that much faster. Warp in storms were pretty much the only thing, short of like ten cannons or 3/4 stalkers + 3/4 zealots chilling in your mineral line that could stop a Terran drop. If you take warp-in storms out, why not make Protoss t1 stronger? I just don't see the rationale behind making us rely solely on t3 units for any effective way to kill the T army and then nerfing the t3 units into oblivion. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 28 2011 05:02 Daralii wrote: 40 second warpgate cooldown + 5 second warp in time + 44 seconds to build enough energy. If your warpgate is on a 40sec cooldown, you must've already made a templar at the start. That means you have 2 templars with storm after that time is up. Sorry, but there is no logic behind that argument. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On February 28 2011 05:09 Bagi wrote: If your warpgate is on a 40sec cooldown, you must've already made a templar at the start. That means you have 2 templars with storm after that time is up. Sorry, but there is no logic behind that argument. I enjoy watching people disarm faulty logic. :D | ||
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
In my opinion, the root of this problem is that using ghosts to combat high templars is harder than splitting marines vs banelings; and thus requires whining rather than trying to figure out how else to micro-intensively. + Show Spoiler + Terrans: "we already need to split against banelings, now we need to micro vs storms too?" Answer: Yes. If you think dealing with storms are bad, for some perspective try playing as zerg and controlling a muta flock around potential thors or any ground unit and siege tanks. Stimmed bio can avoid storms. Warp-in storms are very effective, yes, but one mis-storm or a well-dodged storm and suddenly Protoss can do nothing to those units until a. his army returns to the base b. another warp cycle. The amount of damage marauders can do in that time is ridiculous as well. Learn to micro away from storms rather than to whine at their imbalance. | ||
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