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On February 27 2011 15:39 Tyrant0 wrote:Thats a really neat idea, for protoss casters in general. I doubt it'd be balanced at all, but it's certainly interesting enough that it gives protoss something to cboost later on when they're on 3+ bases, and could be tweaked later.
+1 to chronoboosting high templar to speed up energy gathering, although there's no way this would actually happen 
I find it odd that people think that "better reaction time" is a good argument for the templar nerf. It's not a matter of being slow. It's a matter of wasting all your gas way ahead of time when you could be using it on stuff that could actually be immediately useful. "Oh, I see bio! Better get high templar now just in case they attack me in two minutes!" What? In the heat of battle, there is absolutely no reason to get high templar (without the amulet upgrade) because they will be useless for that skirmish. If you're getting attacked, would you rather warp-in units that are useless (high templar) or warp-in units that can actually do damage? It has nothing to do with reaction time.
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i'd say the nerf is substantial given that many protoss players rely on the warp-in storm vs terran bio-balls and their mobility between expansions. warp-in storms allow protoss players to defend a bio-terran in the very late stages of the game. this reduces the defense option to mass warp-in zealot/stalker/dt vs for example a triple medivac drop.
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the thing i see is that all cryed for imba colosse and just a FEW player played ht, now after ht nerf nearly EVERYONE will play colossi who wasnt nerfed so .. i cant see the reason pushing everyone to use colossi
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On February 27 2011 18:25 rS.Sinatra wrote:
i'd say the nerf is substantial given that many protoss players rely on the warp-in storm vs terran bio-balls and their mobility between expansions. warp-in storms allow protoss players to defend a bio-terran in the very late stages of the game. this reduces the defense option to mass warp-in zealot/stalker/dt vs for example a triple medivac drop.
the nerf does NOT make sense because it makes one of the most expensive and hardest to get units literary worthless. templar tech costs more gas than pretty much any other tech in the game, high templars are the 3rd slowest unit in the game and they have no physical attack. they have one ability that does considerable damage, but getting enough mana to cast it takes FIFTY SECONDS without the amulet. Noone in their right mind is going to make high templars post-patch, because its the biggest waste of gas you can think of.
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On February 26 2011 16:05 avilo wrote:Completely agree with the amulet change. Yes, it's coming from a Terran. But it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many games where protoss can turtle infinitely in the late game versus bio+viking simply because wherever they place a pylon, there is a storm. This would be like me being able to warp-in ghosts and nukes for defense...great change imo, I'm sure other Terrans are happy about this. Templar will still be 1 million times effective vs bio, it's just now protoss has to plan just like the rest of us...instead of, "oh, I can warp in and stop you from attacking in 4 places at once."  and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins. As for the maps though...yeah...
Lol.. "collosus + phoenix + stalker ball" ?
Lets see the tech path for that... min 4 gateways, robotics facility and bay... thermal lance. starport.
I want to see your effectively get all that in time to counter early mm ball... we have to plan like the rest of you? I have a 90% chance of seeing a standard bio opening from terran which is not in anyway all in because base terran always has MMs and support units later on in the game. You dont even NEED emp to handle hts, we NEED hts, zlot run speed and armor upgrades and we STILL have trouble with your mm balls. Ive went down a HT tech path with zlot speed armor ups sentries for ff and still lost cause a "speed upgrade" has a cooldown time which requires 1 stim and 1 apm move control+A to counter... im done
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If blizzard really wants amulet to go, i think they should compensate by giving templars storm by default (no longer upgrade-requirement)
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The problem I think is, that many people don't seem to get the huge differences between storm-tech in SC2 and storm-tech in BW - which is why the amulet was important in the first place:
1.) In BW you could get BOTH DTs and HTs after you've constructed the archives. This means, the gas-investment allowed you also to get some crucial harassment done. Also your opponent never really knows if you will get DTs after all. Really a strong tech. In SC2 however, you are 100% committed to storm, the archives actually has no other use than supporting HTs.
2.) In BW you didn't have to face EMPs so early. In SC2 ghosts are extremely easy to get compared to the vessles in BW.
Both of these storm-tech-"nerfs" were perfectly justified considering that with the super-strong amulet you had something that really made the templar tech worth it.
If amulet gets removed for good, then all that remains is a much higher commitment when throwing down the archives (no DTs to make the tech pay for itself beforehand) and a much easier way to counter them compared to BW.
Incontrol also said on his stream, that probably ghosts/EMPs also need a nerf when the amulet gets removed. And I completely agree, now there remains no justification whatsoever for "instant" EMPs when the amulet is gone.
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On February 27 2011 18:36 KingReaz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 16:05 avilo wrote:Completely agree with the amulet change. Yes, it's coming from a Terran. But it's absolutely ridiculous that there are so many games where protoss can turtle infinitely in the late game versus bio+viking simply because wherever they place a pylon, there is a storm. This would be like me being able to warp-in ghosts and nukes for defense...great change imo, I'm sure other Terrans are happy about this. Templar will still be 1 million times effective vs bio, it's just now protoss has to plan just like the rest of us...instead of, "oh, I can warp in and stop you from attacking in 4 places at once." and guys, guess what? Protoss still have collosus+phoenix+stalker ball, which a large majority of the time is better than high templar anyways...now it's just you can't get that ball PLUS high templar storm immediately from warp-ins. As for the maps though...yeah... Lol.. "collosus + phoenix + stalker ball" ? Lets see the tech path for that... min 4 gateways, robotics facility and bay... thermal lance. starport. I want to see your effectively get all that in time to counter early mm ball... we have to plan like the rest of you? I have a 90% chance of seeing a standard bio opening from terran which is not in anyway all in because base terran always has MMs and support units later on in the game. You dont even NEED emp to handle hts, we NEED hts, zlot run speed and armor upgrades and we STILL have trouble with your mm balls. Ive went down a HT tech path with zlot speed armor ups sentries for ff and still lost cause a "speed upgrade" has a cooldown time which requires 1 stim and 1 apm move control+A to counter... im done
All you need to counter early MM Ball is 3 Gate Robo or 1 gate Robo FE depending on how well you can pull it off.
Why would you need a Starport you defend against early MM?. The only time a Protoss will make a Stargate unless they plan on using it for units besides the Phoenix, is when they're up against MMM+ Vikings, so that you can absorb the vikings shots and Damage them as well allowing the colossus to deal out more damage since they live longer.
If you went HT tech with chargelots and sentries to FF and still lost to a sole MMM army, then you obviously didn't micro well enough, or you're leaving out parts from your story.
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Well this thread made me run over to the patch notes and im not too happy. Everything else is fine and this is the only problem. Like jinro said HT's do need SOMETHING, not just complete removal of an energy upgrade.
What im mostly worried about, and am already, is this makes it so i go colossus. And by go colossus, i mean go colossus every. single. game. I already feel toss is forced to go colossus every match-up or lose to some degree; this just seals the deal. (Obviously its not always the case, but 9 times out of 10, the first tech you see from a toss is colossus. If its not then its voidray, and then colossus, at least thats how it feels imo.)
The time invested into getting high temps, and now the time invested into getting high temps, storm, and waiting to be able to storm once is just a tad too much.
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On February 27 2011 18:54 KonohaFlash wrote:
If you went HT tech with chargelots and sentries to FF and still lost to a sole MMM army, then you obviously didn't micro well enough, or you're leaving out parts from your story.
Mass marauder medievac can actually beat chargelot sentry HT if you micro really well. Storm is not really a hard counter to marauders unless you let them stand there and take the full damage.
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On February 27 2011 18:17 bennyaus wrote:
Point 2 : I am pretty sure that Stalkers cost effectively beat BCs, and Zealots cost effectively beat Thors. Protoss has no complaint about their Tier 1, only zerg does as they don't have anti-air although.... Queen cost effectively beat BC, and Zergling or Roach cost effectively beats Thor.
Point 4: Terran Tier 1 + Medviacs is the same as Protoss Tier 1 + Support T2/3 unit. What a ridiculous point. Similarly, Terran Tier 1 + Ghosts is the same as Protoss T1+ Support T2/3 unit.
Point 5: Whilst Blink and Charge are required to beat an upgraded T1 army with only T1 units as P, the Terran T2-3 units are weaker compared to the Protoss equivalents.
Point 2: The only place you are correct is the Zerglings cost effectively beating Thors, and the Queens beating BCs only with energy.
Point 4: Maybe the comparison is bad considering the tech trees work differently for the two races. And even if i am to agree that it is the same tech wise, point still stands that the Protoss is building a counter to the army you are producing, not to mention Ghosts can cloak, and if you are worried about observers, bring 2-3 vikings, scan and snipe the damn thing, if he keeps it in the back of his army, Great! They wont be able to spot the cloaked ghosts in time before the HTs are EMP'd. This dynamic simply comes down to who has the best unit control.
I saw a PvT in the GSL where the Terran went for Ghosts, but continually got his shit sniped by blink stalkers, that is just awful unit control and he deserved to get punished for it, its not like we run in a HT alone to storm your army then complain our counter is bad cause it got EMP'd before it could reach the damn target.
Point 5: The funny thing is Blink and Charge actually arent required to beat an upgraded T1 Terran army, if you got Storm or Colossi you don't NEED any of those upgrades, they are just really nice to have as it adds to the effectiveness of your army. However without Storm or Colossi our gateway army simply dies to your MM with stim, charge or not(this could potentially change with the upcoming patch).
Don't wanna comment on Protoss v Terran T2/3 cause its hard to argue exactly what units are what tier for each race.
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On February 27 2011 19:01 dark fury wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2011 18:54 KonohaFlash wrote:
If you went HT tech with chargelots and sentries to FF and still lost to a sole MMM army, then you obviously didn't micro well enough, or you're leaving out parts from your story.
Mass marauder medievac can actually beat chargelot sentry HT if you micro really well. Storm is not really a hard counter to marauders unless you let them stand there and take the full damage.
He said he used forcefields though, so I'm assuming that the Terran's army would be blocked from retreating/microing/kiting. I've had this done to me on several occasions and done it to terrans as well.
Would be nice if he gave a bit more insight on the engagement he lost.
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i think this change is too much. i do not think it'll eventually make it into the patch 1.3. you just can't defend against drops if thats so. temps already have a hard time against emp as it is.
my friend who loves the amulet upgrade is saddened by this but i do not think it makes final patch.
nice numbers i will take your numbers into account.
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Maybe they should make it so you get can upgrade and get +23/22 energy. This would mean a HT would warp in at around 73/72 and then you would wait about 2-4 seconds in real time till you can cast a storm.
That means if an opponent see s your HT warping in, he has the time to run his drones immediately. those 2-3 seconds also gives him enough time to notice that something just popped up at his base or whatever and give him enough time to move units.
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The point still stands that we are building the counter to YOUR unit composition, why does our counter need a nerf then? I mean its not like i complain about mass tanks if i went Stalkers/Colossi.
Yup it does, but I just want to get it out there that Terran naturally can tech ridiculously fast so their Tiers can't quite be compared to Protoss's.
You say that Bio needs to be mobile to stay on top of Protoss lategame, just like Mutas for Zerg. The thing is tho Zerg doesn't use Muta/Ling through the entire game, they use the Muta/Ling to gain map control and resources to switch to Brood Lords or Ultras, and use those to finish the game somehow. So if we are to follow that comparison you are basically asking your the Terrans equivalent to Muta/Ling to somehow defeat the Protoss lategame army? Or maybe i am missing something here.
True, but just because Zerg doesn't use Muta/Ling through the entire game doesn't mean Terran can't go Bio all game. May be it does suck, it seems like it does suck right now against P unless you have really good apm and can keep up very good harassment and drops, but idk, i don't actually play Terran as my main .
Forgot one thing, to people in general: You claim that Storm drops are insane and does a fuckton of damage, well have you ever been on the recieving end of a Blue Flame hellion drop? It is way more effective and not as costly as going for a storm drop. Considering theres a big chance you want that medivac anyway, while a Warp Prism is something Protoss don't always go for, not to mention it mostly has that single use ONLY, harrasment, while a Medivac obviously is used for keeping your MM army alive.
Omg Blue Flame Hellion drops are so friggin deadly. Soooo friggin deadly. And they can get away too!
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Protoss lack the harrassing ability really bad to start with and they srtuggle when harrassed and HT was lie the only viable option Protoss had along with a few chargelots. Without warp in storm it'll be hell to deal with drops and stuff when you know your army is simply shit when not grouped together
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Yup it does, but I just want to get it out there that Terran naturally can tech ridiculously fast so their Tiers can't quite be compared to Protoss's.
I agree completely, not much else to say 
True, but just because Zerg doesn't use Muta/Ling through the entire game doesn't mean Terran can't go Bio all game. May be it does suck, it seems like it does suck right now against P unless you have really good apm and can keep up very good harassment and drops, but idk, i don't actually play Terran as my main .
Yea you could be right, they are different races after all, just think it seems a bit outrageous that Terran wants the army with mobility and harras possibilities to beat our army that is designed for a straight up fight.
Omg Blue Flame Hellion drops are so friggin deadly. Soooo friggin deadly. And they can get away too!
Seriously can't tell if your being sarcastic or not 
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Incontrol also said on his stream, that probably ghosts/EMPs also need a nerf when the amulet gets removed. And I completely agree, now there remains no justification whatsoever for "instant" EMPs when the amulet is gone.
I can agree with removing the mobius reactor if amulet is removed. Its only fair.
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On February 28 2011 02:42 -Mav- wrote:Show nested quote +
Incontrol also said on his stream, that probably ghosts/EMPs also need a nerf when the amulet gets removed. And I completely agree, now there remains no justification whatsoever for "instant" EMPs when the amulet is gone.
I can agree with removing the mobius reactor if amulet is removed. Its only fair.
Ghost build time: 40sec.
HT time to build and get 75 energy: 44 + 5 = 49sec.
If the ghosts had this upgrade removed, it would take 84 seconds to have an EMP after you start training a ghost. Is that really "only fair"?
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I like this change and play random, constantly warping in templar to constant storm an MMM army in an equal skill level game is way too strong. The delicate balance between EMP and storm is incredibly delicate and dynamic, and the fact of the matter was that you could warp in and storm much faster than a terran could get a ghost all the way over to the battle and EMP. I think with this change it will really come down to in game micro rather than easy mode for protoss late game.
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EPT
