EPTI advanced to Master League yesterday following 3 build orders against Z/P/T, which not only proved successful, but I won 15 out of my last 21 games using these build orders against high diamond and mostly master players.
The build orders are cheesy and requires no skill pulling off, but you must know when/how/what to engage/harass. It requires some training and some micro, and after you've perfected this cheesy way of playing, you can pretty much dominate everything in diamond and many players in masters, simply because they don't expect such lousy strategies to be pulled off.
Opponent: Protoss.
+ Show Spoiler +
Strategy: 6 pool
Why it works & How to counter:
As all other cheese strategies, people in Diamond and Master league rarely expect to see it, so they don't prepare/scout for it. Am I joking? No! The truth is, it's very hard to counter 6 pool unless you scout for it and get a forge up as soon as possible. Youtube commentators such as Force are giving people wrong counters against this, so here is what you want to do.
Scout at 6-10 supply (depending on the map size). If you see a low amount of drones do this:
1. Build a forge as soon as possible.
2. Build a gateway next to the forge to wall off completely.
3. Get a cannon up as soon as possible.
4. Watch the zerg players lose all his zerglings to your cannons or watch him/her pull their zerglings back.
At this point you'll be so far ahead that you can just go mass stalkers and end the game with ease. This is the only way I've lost to protos players when I was 6 pooling. People who try to counter by walling off with two Gateways lose 9 out of 10 times.
How to execute this strategy:
1. Make a spawning pool as soon as possible.
2. Make 2 drones (if you're playing a 4 player map, use the first drone to scout for his location).
3. When your spawning pool is finished you should have 7/10 supply, 150 minerals and 3xlarva. At this point you want to set your rally to your opponents base and pump out 3x2 zerglings.
4. As soon as you have your first 75 minerals you'll have 1 larva. Take 1 gas and make 1x2 zergling.
5. When you hit 75 minerals again do the same.
6. Cancel both extractors. You should be at 10/12 supply now.
7. As soon as you can make an overlord, so you can continue making zerglings.
When 6 pooling it's alpha omega that you engage his zealots as soon as you can get a surrounding. It's also very important you don't lose your zerglings to his probes, unless you can kill 2-3 probes for every zergling you lose. If he has blocked off with 2 gateways, time your attacks so both will get destroyed at the same time. What you want to attack first when entering his base, is always any spawning cannons, the Gateways and finally the Forge. Don't attack the pylons unless 1 pylon is powering 2 or more buildings.
Remember these are just guidelines, you must determine what the best thing to target is yourself depending on the situation.
Watch some of my replays and you'll get the idea.
Replays:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141906-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141911-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141910-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141909-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141908-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
Why it works & How to counter:
As all other cheese strategies, people in Diamond and Master league rarely expect to see it, so they don't prepare/scout for it. Am I joking? No! The truth is, it's very hard to counter 6 pool unless you scout for it and get a forge up as soon as possible. Youtube commentators such as Force are giving people wrong counters against this, so here is what you want to do.
Scout at 6-10 supply (depending on the map size). If you see a low amount of drones do this:
1. Build a forge as soon as possible.
2. Build a gateway next to the forge to wall off completely.
3. Get a cannon up as soon as possible.
4. Watch the zerg players lose all his zerglings to your cannons or watch him/her pull their zerglings back.
At this point you'll be so far ahead that you can just go mass stalkers and end the game with ease. This is the only way I've lost to protos players when I was 6 pooling. People who try to counter by walling off with two Gateways lose 9 out of 10 times.
How to execute this strategy:
1. Make a spawning pool as soon as possible.
2. Make 2 drones (if you're playing a 4 player map, use the first drone to scout for his location).
3. When your spawning pool is finished you should have 7/10 supply, 150 minerals and 3xlarva. At this point you want to set your rally to your opponents base and pump out 3x2 zerglings.
4. As soon as you have your first 75 minerals you'll have 1 larva. Take 1 gas and make 1x2 zergling.
5. When you hit 75 minerals again do the same.
6. Cancel both extractors. You should be at 10/12 supply now.
7. As soon as you can make an overlord, so you can continue making zerglings.
When 6 pooling it's alpha omega that you engage his zealots as soon as you can get a surrounding. It's also very important you don't lose your zerglings to his probes, unless you can kill 2-3 probes for every zergling you lose. If he has blocked off with 2 gateways, time your attacks so both will get destroyed at the same time. What you want to attack first when entering his base, is always any spawning cannons, the Gateways and finally the Forge. Don't attack the pylons unless 1 pylon is powering 2 or more buildings.
Remember these are just guidelines, you must determine what the best thing to target is yourself depending on the situation.
Watch some of my replays and you'll get the idea.
Replays:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141906-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141911-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141910-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141909-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141908-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
Opponent: Terran.
+ Show Spoiler +
Strategy: 13-14 Pool Roaches.
Why it works & How to counter:
The typical Terran will go marines and tanks against zerg players. Some will try to reaper rush and others will go early banshee harassment. All these builds will lose to roach attack. However the counter is pretty easy and requires almost no effort.
The Terran players who were able to counter my attacks (forcing me to pull back and go into mid/late game) did the following.
1. Continous scouting for Roach Warden, meaning even when I killed or forced them to back off their first SCV they either sent more or scanned my base, which most don't since mules have such a huge impact on the terran economy.
2. Made marauders instantly (as soon as they saw my roach warden). Mix a few marauders with marines and roaches become worthless in an early push.
How to execute this strategy::
1. At 10 supply send a drone to scout/harass and make an overlord. Usually when you scout early, your opponent will feel more comfortable about preparing for mid game + harassing your opponents SCVs might mess up his/her timing and sometimes even build order.
2. At 13 or 14 supply make a spawning pool followed by an extractor.
3. At 15 supply make an overlord.
4. At 16 supply make a queen.
5. At 18-20 supply make 1x2 or 2x2 zerglings, to deny scouting and for map control.
6. At 20-22 supply, drop a Roach Warden and make an overlord.
7. Stop all drone/zergling production and pump out roaches as soon as you can in a continous stream. Remember to make overlords in order not to get supply blocked.
Here are 4 critical factors that are decisive and will make this strategy work most of the time:
1. Hide your Roach Warden for as long as possible! Don't allow the terran player to scout it.
2. Get an overlord near your opponents ramp, so you can target his/her units/structures without having to enter the ramp to get vision. Otherwise the marines will outnumber your roaches since only 3-4 of your roaches will be able to deal damage when engaged by the marines.
3. Attack as soon as you have 6-7 roaches. Otherwise tanks will come into play, which means you'll need to pull back and pray.
4. Keep pumping larva. The first wave of Roaches won't be able to end the game. It's important you don't get supply blocked so you can keep them coming!
Replays:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141912-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141914-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141915-1v1-terran-zerg-blistering-sands
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141917-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141918-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/142404-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
Opponent: Zerg.
+ Show Spoiler +
Strategy: 7 pool + 2 spine crawlers.
Why it works & How to counter:
I hate losing to this and so does a lot of Zerg players and it's so easy to counter if you scout early, but in ZvsZ most zerg players either try to finish the game by early banelings, early roaches or 14-15 hatch. This is why 7 pooling is so effective followed by 2 spine crawlers.
To counter this on 4 player maps, you can get away with 14 pooling. On 2 player maps I would recommend to scout at 8 supply and use the extractor trick to go 12 pool. However here is the most simple and safe way to deal with this.
1. Scout at 8 supply.
2. At 10 supply make a spawning pool.
3. At 10 supply make an overlord.
4. Get 3 zerglings and a queen as soon as possible.
5. Make 2 spine crawlers behind your base.
6. When your spine crawlers are done, move them to the front of your base, so they'll be in range of your opponents spine crawlers. You should have enough zerglings to match your opponents zerglings, plus you have a queen and at least 10 drones. Pull them all into the attack, and it's GG.
You could use your queen to get extra zerglings or to heal your spine crawlers. I would recommend extra zerglings. After you've destroyed his 2 spine crawlers, you'll have two spine crawlers in your own base, plus more drones, plus a queen, plus a few zerglings. Your opponent on the other hand will have nothing and it's GG.
How to execute this strategy::
1. At 7 supply you make a spawning pool.
2. At 7 supply make an overlord.
3. Once your spawning pool is done you should be at 7/18 supply, have 3 larva and 150 minerals. You then proceed to make 3 zerglings and continue to make more. You set your rally point to the edge of your opponents base and as soon as your first 3 zerglings spawn, you move two drones to your opponents base and make spine crawlers while harassing with your zerglings.
Here are 4 critical factors that are decisive and will make this strategy work most of the time:
1. Do not lose your zerglings unless you can take out pretty much all of your opponents drones.
2. Don't let your spine crawlers die!
3. Harass his drones all the time.
4. When your opponent moves all of his units to defend against your attack, for the sake of god, micro and get a good surrounding on his zerglings. If you can do that, it's pretty much autowin for you 99 percent of the time.
Replays:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141921-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141920-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141919-1v1-zerg-blistering-sands
Why it works & How to counter:
I hate losing to this and so does a lot of Zerg players and it's so easy to counter if you scout early, but in ZvsZ most zerg players either try to finish the game by early banelings, early roaches or 14-15 hatch. This is why 7 pooling is so effective followed by 2 spine crawlers.
To counter this on 4 player maps, you can get away with 14 pooling. On 2 player maps I would recommend to scout at 8 supply and use the extractor trick to go 12 pool. However here is the most simple and safe way to deal with this.
1. Scout at 8 supply.
2. At 10 supply make a spawning pool.
3. At 10 supply make an overlord.
4. Get 3 zerglings and a queen as soon as possible.
5. Make 2 spine crawlers behind your base.
6. When your spine crawlers are done, move them to the front of your base, so they'll be in range of your opponents spine crawlers. You should have enough zerglings to match your opponents zerglings, plus you have a queen and at least 10 drones. Pull them all into the attack, and it's GG.
You could use your queen to get extra zerglings or to heal your spine crawlers. I would recommend extra zerglings. After you've destroyed his 2 spine crawlers, you'll have two spine crawlers in your own base, plus more drones, plus a queen, plus a few zerglings. Your opponent on the other hand will have nothing and it's GG.
How to execute this strategy::
1. At 7 supply you make a spawning pool.
2. At 7 supply make an overlord.
3. Once your spawning pool is done you should be at 7/18 supply, have 3 larva and 150 minerals. You then proceed to make 3 zerglings and continue to make more. You set your rally point to the edge of your opponents base and as soon as your first 3 zerglings spawn, you move two drones to your opponents base and make spine crawlers while harassing with your zerglings.
Here are 4 critical factors that are decisive and will make this strategy work most of the time:
1. Do not lose your zerglings unless you can take out pretty much all of your opponents drones.
2. Don't let your spine crawlers die!
3. Harass his drones all the time.
4. When your opponent moves all of his units to defend against your attack, for the sake of god, micro and get a good surrounding on his zerglings. If you can do that, it's pretty much autowin for you 99 percent of the time.
Replays:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141921-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141920-1v1-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/141919-1v1-zerg-blistering-sands
Closing comments:
The reason for this thread is not to encourage zerg players to cheese, quite the contrary. However if you do choose to cheese, by all means be my guest. I only did it because I figured it was the easiest and fastest way to get into Masters. Now that I'm here, I want to play my passive expanding style.
And for everyone who is about to whine or flame, please keep in mind that early scouting will prevent you from losing to cheese, so there is really nothing to whine/flame/complain about
If you have any replays where you counter cheese in an effective way or execute something similar, upload it here and I'll update/insert them in my main thread.
User uploaded replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
michaelhasanalias's ZvsZ builds:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192260
michaelhasanalias's ZvsT builds:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195296
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=192260
michaelhasanalias's ZvsT builds:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195296
User input:
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 21 2011 00:13 morimacil wrote:
Its worth noting that if you early pool against toss, you really want to take 2 drones with you along with the 6 lings.
A lot of protoss players dont realize that a full wallin is needed, and will try to hold off your lings with a hold position chronoboosted zealot. Having 2 drones allows you to phase through the zealot by clicking on the mineral line, and then attack him from behind with the drones, while the lings attack from the front. Thus you easily get a surround, get much more dps on the zealot, and it falls much faster.
Having an early drone scout hanging out at his choke blocking buildings from being placed there can also help a ton.
Its worth noting that if you early pool against toss, you really want to take 2 drones with you along with the 6 lings.
A lot of protoss players dont realize that a full wallin is needed, and will try to hold off your lings with a hold position chronoboosted zealot. Having 2 drones allows you to phase through the zealot by clicking on the mineral line, and then attack him from behind with the drones, while the lings attack from the front. Thus you easily get a surround, get much more dps on the zealot, and it falls much faster.
Having an early drone scout hanging out at his choke blocking buildings from being placed there can also help a ton.
On February 23 2011 03:15 xixecal wrote:
You actually don't have to wall-off to defend against a 6/7-pool. You can place a cannon that covers all your structures and your mineral line and sim city. This way your cannon is super safe because your probes can protect it. What you can do is build the first plyon close, then wall off with Cyber + Quick 2nd gate against speedling expand, delaying the 2nd gas a little bit.
Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8.
Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner.
You actually don't have to wall-off to defend against a 6/7-pool. You can place a cannon that covers all your structures and your mineral line and sim city. This way your cannon is super safe because your probes can protect it. What you can do is build the first plyon close, then wall off with Cyber + Quick 2nd gate against speedling expand, delaying the 2nd gas a little bit.
Doing this completely shuts down the stupid bring drone to block the wall then all-in version, as cannon+probes > lings + drones. This is pretty much the best way to deal with 6/7-pool on scrap unless you scout at 8.
Master League/Pro players lose to cheese because we are greedy/lazy/drunk and expect our opponents to be upstanding citizens of the Starcraft community, upholding the noble tradition of macro games and good manner.
On March 13 2011 12:44 proxY_ wrote:
I'll just say that the 3rr into mass speedling cheese is much better than a 6 pool against p. Most Ps at lower levels are actively afraid of a 6 pool and will scout on like 9 against it. If they see it and know to throw up a forge you're screwed. Read Travis's thread on the 3rr into mass speedlings, stopping it requires some really precise micro. Much harder than stopping a 6 pool.
The 7rr works on a terran that does a pretty blind two rax into expand gasless build (close to the most popular build you see in in zvt) but generally the terran should scout it and they should be able to deal with it (any terran worth anything will see that you haven't expanded and prepare for an all-in with bunkers). A much better build is a July-esque 2 base mass speedling baneling attack. It's a later all-in but it's a lot harder for the terran to scout it. You can hit a weird timing window where the terran will have likely expanded and probably won't have siege tanks yet. If they haven't expanded then you can probably play a straight up game and beat them as you'll have your natural running already, you just have to defend the likely all-in.
The 7 pool with 2 spines against z is a good cheese though, I have to question the people saying it's easy to stop with a 14 pool. It requires some really precise drone micro and frankly really superb execution. Certainly much easier to execute than to stop.
I'll just say that the 3rr into mass speedling cheese is much better than a 6 pool against p. Most Ps at lower levels are actively afraid of a 6 pool and will scout on like 9 against it. If they see it and know to throw up a forge you're screwed. Read Travis's thread on the 3rr into mass speedlings, stopping it requires some really precise micro. Much harder than stopping a 6 pool.
The 7rr works on a terran that does a pretty blind two rax into expand gasless build (close to the most popular build you see in in zvt) but generally the terran should scout it and they should be able to deal with it (any terran worth anything will see that you haven't expanded and prepare for an all-in with bunkers). A much better build is a July-esque 2 base mass speedling baneling attack. It's a later all-in but it's a lot harder for the terran to scout it. You can hit a weird timing window where the terran will have likely expanded and probably won't have siege tanks yet. If they haven't expanded then you can probably play a straight up game and beat them as you'll have your natural running already, you just have to defend the likely all-in.
The 7 pool with 2 spines against z is a good cheese though, I have to question the people saying it's easy to stop with a 14 pool. It requires some really precise drone micro and frankly really superb execution. Certainly much easier to execute than to stop.
Edit: New Terran video added
Edit: New ZvsZ strategy added (see User uploaded replays)
Edit: New Protoss Counter vs 6 pool added (see User input)
Edit: New ZvsT strategy added (see User uploaded replays)
Edit: Constructive critique and alternative strategies added (see User input)
