EPTHowever, the recent trend for tournaments posted on the Team Liquid SC2 Tournament forum is completely ridiculous. Almost every tournament that I have participated in so far, has a degree of 'invitational' in it.
I do understand, however, that its a free world out there, and if you had enough money and wanted to make a tournament exclusively for pro-scene and only wanted to exclusively watch those players play, nothing is stopping you. However, it shouldn't be a trend that the rest of the community should follow, because thats not how competition is born. Has anybody ever asked the obvious question here? How did these players get famous in the first place? Obviously, someone somewhere, gave them a chance, watched them participate in the beginning of SC1 or WC3 or whatever game they played at, got really good without the help of invitationals. I'm sure there were a few invitationals back in the day too, but the # has simply gone too large to notice that invitationals are now the norm, and not the exception (which they should be).
A couple examples: Gosu Gamers SC2 Invitational
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=130944
I'm currently competing in the Gosu Gamer SC2 Invitational. To get to the final Ro16, I need to "qualify" to reach there. I'm not knocking the people that are already auto-qualified, they are all fine playered and most are well mannered, but honestly, who qualified them? Results from tournaments that they won in the past in which they were invited to? Yeah, results are results, and winners are winners, however, I look on the ladder everyday and Idra's record is just as imperfect as the next person under him. He still has losses even though he is #1 Diamond (doesn't mean anything btw), he also plays 8 hours a day, something most players don't have the time for.
To say that those 12 players that are automatically qualified were the best players and better than anybody else that signed up for this massive tournament, would be an insult to all those who signed up and a false. This wasn't a statement made by the tournament organizers, but it is implying something.
SC2 tournaments should be 60-80% or even more non-invitational, meaning, completely open. Instead, we are seeing more tournaments than ever with reserved spots for players and very few tournaments that have all their spots given in a free-for-all. If you are going to have qualifiers for a tournament, thats fine... just make sure that everyone has to qualify for it, not just the "lowly unknown uninvited scrubs that should be thankful they even got a spot, but won't even be casted until the ro16 b/c apparently nobody gives a shit about them" <-- Really, that is the type of message that you are sending to the masses, at least that is what I hear.
Global Gamer Invitational Response:
+ Show Spoiler +
On July 13 2010 09:16 Saechiis wrote:
Well I guess I'll explain for my part how the Global Gamers Invitational became how it is today. Please note that it's the GGI, the GGI2 hasn't been announced yet
So, JMS and I both had some extra money and we wanted it to go into eSports. We both loved Starcraft 2 and so we decided to team up and start a tournament. We had seen a lot of the great US and EU players, but knowledge of the Asian scene was limited to the 17173 SC2 WC and Tester in the Altitude Invitational. So we decided upon doing a global tournament, hence the Global Gamers Invitational name.
Next step was deciding upon a format and we decided that in order to make a name for our tournament we would have to invite some great players. No-one would care about an unknown open tournament by two unknown people in the community. But then again, we were also hoping to give some no-name players a chance to prove themselves and so we invited 12 players and kept the remaining 4 spots open for qualifiers.
The qualifiers kept growing until we had 128 people, which in retrospect ofcourse is a lot for only 4 spots. But we weren't planning on excluding any players that might be the next TLO (so to speak).
The main purpose for new TO's like us is to make a name for ourselves and our tournament. If we had kept an all open tournament all the invited players probably wouldn't have participated, meaning our tournament would have created little buzz and would have died silently because no sponsor cares about tournaments that don't have huge buzz/ viewercounts. You have to realise that most tournaments aren't organised on behalf of the player, they are organised to give the viewers some spectacle. Viewers simply like seeing players that they know and most of these players have deserved it. The 12 invited players are all highly skilled SC2 players and I think all of them have a shot at winning. None of them got invited purely because they are a familiar face, they got invited because we think they are the best and will provide some epic matches.
That said, when our tournament runs smoothly and gets good viewercounts it will be MUCH easier for us to 1. get sponsors 2. get players 3. organise more of an open tournament. It's not just the players that have to get known before they can get things done
Seriously Paramore, the entire oGs team is playing in the qualifiers and we all know that at least half of them have a good chance at winning the whole thing. Even though they weren't seeded they said "ok" and are starting from step 1, just like you. If you manage to beat Cool in the Ro16 of the qualifiers, or even if you take 1 game off him, people will remember that and say "hmmm, he's pretty good, we should invite him for a showmatch". All our matches, even the qualifiers, are being commentated and distributed so you have a good chance of proving yourself.
Well I guess I'll explain for my part how the Global Gamers Invitational became how it is today. Please note that it's the GGI, the GGI2 hasn't been announced yet
So, JMS and I both had some extra money and we wanted it to go into eSports. We both loved Starcraft 2 and so we decided to team up and start a tournament. We had seen a lot of the great US and EU players, but knowledge of the Asian scene was limited to the 17173 SC2 WC and Tester in the Altitude Invitational. So we decided upon doing a global tournament, hence the Global Gamers Invitational name.
Next step was deciding upon a format and we decided that in order to make a name for our tournament we would have to invite some great players. No-one would care about an unknown open tournament by two unknown people in the community. But then again, we were also hoping to give some no-name players a chance to prove themselves and so we invited 12 players and kept the remaining 4 spots open for qualifiers.
The qualifiers kept growing until we had 128 people, which in retrospect ofcourse is a lot for only 4 spots. But we weren't planning on excluding any players that might be the next TLO (so to speak).
The main purpose for new TO's like us is to make a name for ourselves and our tournament. If we had kept an all open tournament all the invited players probably wouldn't have participated, meaning our tournament would have created little buzz and would have died silently because no sponsor cares about tournaments that don't have huge buzz/ viewercounts. You have to realise that most tournaments aren't organised on behalf of the player, they are organised to give the viewers some spectacle. Viewers simply like seeing players that they know and most of these players have deserved it. The 12 invited players are all highly skilled SC2 players and I think all of them have a shot at winning. None of them got invited purely because they are a familiar face, they got invited because we think they are the best and will provide some epic matches.
That said, when our tournament runs smoothly and gets good viewercounts it will be MUCH easier for us to 1. get sponsors 2. get players 3. organise more of an open tournament. It's not just the players that have to get known before they can get things done
Seriously Paramore, the entire oGs team is playing in the qualifiers and we all know that at least half of them have a good chance at winning the whole thing. Even though they weren't seeded they said "ok" and are starting from step 1, just like you. If you manage to beat Cool in the Ro16 of the qualifiers, or even if you take 1 game off him, people will remember that and say "hmmm, he's pretty good, we should invite him for a showmatch". All our matches, even the qualifiers, are being commentated and distributed so you have a good chance of proving yourself.
Example 2: Wolf Cup 2
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=133169
I talked to the organizer of this tournament. He's a really nice guy and hell, I'd even say we were friends after a few conversations. His tournament, is not very wide known, certainly not as large as GosuGamers SC2 invitational and only had a $50 prize pool out of his own pocket as opposed to a $1500 with t-shirts and hardware sponsors etc....
Even then, he still reserved the last few spots for well-knowns and put a "star" beside the names of those that "deserved" it. I have no hard-feelings, I didn't even get a star beside my name until I pmed him... I really didn't care whether or not I had a star or not, to be honest, I think every single person that signed up for that tournament deserved a star...
If this is the trend that is going to be for the new SC2 scene, its going to be alot harder for really talented players to become competitive. After a grueling ro128 I will face in Gosu Gamer SC2, if I somehow make it to the ro4 which qualifies me, I have to face another ro16. Its like I basically fought ro 256 or ro 512, it really makes no difference since I have to face that many more opponents. Meanwhile, the comfortable 12, get to sit back... and when the time comes, will fight ro16 from ro16 without ever having to go through the trouble of organizing with other players, casting their own games or finding casters willing to cast them or lifting a finger to work hard to become "known" or "good". They didn't ask to be invited, but yeah, they were just invited, and that was that...
I'm not saying invitationals are bad, but too many are not good for the community and do more harm than good. This can't be the norm and shouldn't be. Competition is born from grass-roots, not from the top-down. People that aren't known, deserve a fair chance.
Anybody that plays poker, which this site obviously is dedicated to, knows that its alot harder to win a 10 million player tournament than it is to win 10-handed right off the start. Event he world-series of poker doesn't save seats for the "pros", they have to tirelessly work themselves up every single year. Its no different when it comes to SC2. If I have to play ro512 (or its equivalent, because playing Ro128--> ro4 and then reverting back to ro16 is actually the exact same amount of opponents as starting off the whole tournament ro512, my chances are basically 1/512 to win the tournament. As opposed to the player that started at ro16 being invited, his chances were 1/16. Its not complete luck, and SC2 has less deviation of odds than poker does, but the concept is the same. Skill can only take you so far sometimes, you need a little luck, whether its in poker or SC2.
Not to name drop to those that I beat in Wolf Cup, but the only person I lost to in that tournament was Morrow, who won that tournament. On my way to defeat, I defeated someone who was invited to Gosu Gamers SC2. Does that mean I should have been invited instead? No. Who decides? No matter how you put it, its not how good you are, its who you know. This is wrong.
What does the community think? Should invitationals be the exception or should they be the norm? How should we define our competition? Should they fight for it, or should they be spoon fed? Those that aren't known would have to fight so much harder.
Poll: Invitationals
The Exception (289)
85%
The Norm (50)
15%
339 total votes
The Norm (50)
339 total votes
Your vote: Invitationals
EDIT: I know how this thread can sound, that I'm just another player who is jealous of the pro-scene and whining about it, however, that is not what this is about. This is about there being too many invitationals. Like I said, nothing wrong with invitationals, they exist, fine, just don't let them be the main part of our community. I'll openly admit right now, I'm envious of those that don't have to fight it out in a huge tournament just to get "qualified" among a peer of "better known" players. I really wish I had that edge on opponents, I'd definitely win more tournaments on average. Wouldn't you?
I can say this because I have held my own against "well-known" players. Being well-known has nothing to do with how good you are at this game and I hope people continue to try hard so that they become well-known the harder way, cause those are the players that are worth cheering for.
As mentioned in this thread, HuK made his way up like that, but not many others did, yet are still invited.
EDIT 2: I'm really glad that this thread happened and that there was discussion for both sides of the point. Obviously I'm on the side that there shouldn't be as many invitationals (not that they shouldn't exist). We've learned alot of for and against for tournament organizers and our community:
Invitational/Reserve Pros
Easy to make and saves time
Viewers care more
Draws sponsorship (well, honestly, big tournaments draw sponsorships... PERIOD)
Prestige
Cons
Blocks out competition,
Odds are stacked against non-invitees and decent players kind of get shafted
Elitism and skewed beliefs about skill levels
Non-systematic decisions on who is invited
Unfair/Non-equal opportunity
