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Active: 2169 users

Too Asian? - An Article on Universities

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Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-11 03:37:46
November 11 2010 02:43 GMT
#1
‘Too Asian’?

By Stephanie Findlay and Nicholas Kohler | November 10th, 2010 | 9:55 am

---

A term used in the U.S. to talk about racial imbalance at Ivy league schools is now being whispered on Canadian campuses.

When Alexandra and her friend Rachel, both graduates of Toronto’s Havergal College, an all-girls private school, were deciding which university to go to, they didn’t even bother considering the University of Toronto. “The only people from our school who went to U of T were Asian,” explains Alexandra, a second-year student who looks like a girl from an Aritzia billboard. “All the white kids,” she says, “go to Queen’s, Western and McGill.”

Alexandra eventually chose the University of Western Ontario. Her younger brother, now a high school senior deciding where he’d like to go, will head “either east, west or to McGill”—unusual academic options, but in keeping with what he wants from his university experience. “East would suit him because it’s chill, out west he could be a ski bum,” says Alexandra, who explains her little brother wants to study hard, but is also looking for a good time—which rules out U of T, a school with an academic reputation that can be a bit of a killjoy.

Or, as Alexandra puts it—she asked that her real name not be used in this article, and broached the topic of race at universities hesitantly—a “reputation of being Asian.”

Discussing the role that race plays in the self-selecting communities that more and more characterize university campuses makes many people uncomfortable. Still, an “Asian” school has come to mean one that is so academically focused that some students feel they can no longer compete or have fun. Indeed, Rachel, Alexandra and her brother belong to a growing cohort of student that’s eschewing some big-name schools over perceptions that they’re “too Asian.” It’s a term being used in some U.S. academic circles to describe a phenomenon that’s become such a cause for concern to university admissions officers and high school guidance counsellors that several elite universities to the south have faced scandals in recent years over limiting Asian applicants and keeping the numbers of white students artificially high.

Although university administrators here are loath to discuss the issue, students talk about it all the time. “Too Asian” is not about racism, say students like Alexandra: many white students simply believe that competing with Asians—both Asian Canadians and international students—requires a sacrifice of time and freedom they’re not willing to make. They complain that they can’t compete for spots in the best schools and can’t party as much as they’d like (too bad for them, most will say). Asian kids, meanwhile, say they are resented for taking the spots of white kids. “At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”

That Asian students work harder is a fact born out by hard data. They tend to be strivers, high achievers and single-minded in their approach to university. Stephen Hsu, a physics prof at the University of Oregon who has written about the often subtle forms of discrimination faced by Asian-American university applicants, describes them as doing “disproportionately well—they tend to have high SAT scores, good grades in high school, and a lot of them really want to go to top universities.” In Canada, say Canadian high school guidance counsellors, that means the top-tier post-secondary institutions with international profiles specializing in math, science and business: U of T, UBC and the University of Waterloo. White students, by contrast, are more likely to choose universities and build their school lives around social interaction, athletics and self-actualization—and, yes, alcohol. When the two styles collide, the result is separation rather than integration.

The dilemma is this: Canadian institutions operate as pure meritocracies when it comes to admissions, and admirably so. Privately, however, many in the education community worry that universities risk becoming too skewed one way, changing campus life—a debate that’s been more or less out in the open in the U.S. for years but remains muted here. And that puts Canadian universities in a quandary. If they openly address the issue of race they expose themselves to criticisms that they are profiling and committing an injustice. If they don’t, Canada’s universities, far from the cultural mosaics they’re supposed to be—oases of dialogue, mutual understanding and diversity—risk becoming places of many solitudes, deserts of non-communication. It’s a tough question to have to think about.

Asian-Canadian students are far more likely to talk about and assert their ethnic identities than white students. “I’m Asian,” going back to Confucius, of social mobility based on merit.” Demographics contribute to the high degree of academic success among Asian- Canadian students. “Our highly selective immigration process means that we get many highly educated parents, so they have similar aspirations for their children,” says Robert Sweet, a retired Lakehead University education prof who has studied the parenting styles of immigrants as they relate to education. Sweet’s latest study, “Post-high school pathways of immigrant youth,” released last month, found that more than 70 per cent of students in the Toronto District School Board who immigrated from East Asia went on to university, compared to 52 per cent of Europeans, the next highest group, and 12 per cent of Caribbean, the lowest. This is in contrast to English-speaking Toronto students born in Canada—of which just 42 per cent confirmed admission to university.

Diane Bondy, a recently retired Ottawa area guidance counsellor, notes that by the end of her 20-year career, competition among some Asian parents had reached a fever pitch. “Asian parents do their homework and the students are going to U of T or they’re going to Queen’s,” says Bondy, who points out that “Asians get more support from their parents financially and academically.” She also observed that the focus on academics was often to the exclusion of social interaction. “The kids were getting 98 per cent but they didn’t have other skills,” she says. “Their parents would come in and write in the resumé letters that they were in clubs. But the kids weren’t able to do anything in those clubs because they were academically focused.” says 21-year-old Susie Su, a third-year student at UBC’s Sauder School of Business. “I do have traditional Asian parents. I feel the pressure of finding a good job and raising a good family.” That pressure helps shape more than just the way Su handles study and school assignments; it shapes the way she interacts with her colleagues. “If I feel like it’s going to be an event where it’s all white people, I probably wouldn’t want to go,” she says. “There’s a lot of just drinking. It’s not that I don’t like white people. But you tend to hang out with people of the same race.”

Catherine Costigan, a psychology assistant prof at the University of Victoria, says it’s unsurprising that Asian students are segregated from “mainstream” campus life. She cites studies that show Chinese youth are bullied more than their non-Asian peers. As a so-called “model minority,” they are more frequently targeted because of being “too smart” and “teachers’ pets.” To counter peer ostracism and resentment, Costigan says Chinese students reaffirm their ethnicity.

The value of education has been drilled into Asian students by their parents, likely for cultural and socio-economic reasons. “It’s often described that Asians are the new Jews,” says Jon Reider, director of college counselling at San Francisco University High School and a former Stanford University admissions officer. “That in the face of discrimination, what you do is you study. And there’s a long tradition in Chinese culture, for example, going back to Confucius, of social mobility based on merit.”


Students can carry that narrow scope into university, where they risk alienating their more fun-loving peers. The division is perhaps most extreme at Waterloo, where students have dubbed the MC and DC buildings—the Mathematics & Computer Building and the William G. Davis Computer Research Centre, respectively—“mainland China” and “downtown China,” and where some students told Maclean’s they can go for days without speaking English. Writes one Waterloo mathematics graduate on an online forum: “I once had a tutorial session for the whole class where the TA got frustrated with speaking English and started giving the answer in Mandarin. A lot of the class understood his answer.”

“My dad said if you don’t go into engineering, I won’t pay your tuition,” says Jason Yin, a Taiwanese software engineering student at Waterloo. “They are very traditional. They believe school is about work, studying, go home and studying some more.” Hard-studying Waterloo lends itself particularly to those goals. “We had a problem getting students out of their bedrooms,” says Nikki Best, a former residence don who sits on Waterloo’s student government, who explains they “didn’t want to get behind in their grades because of coming out to social events.” [Nikki Best said her quote was taken out of context, she was referring to students in general not just Asian students]

That’s not to say Asian students form any sort of monolithic presence on Canadian campuses. “The mainland China group tends to stick together,” says Anthony Wong, 19, a Waterloo software engineering student. “We can talk to them,” says Jonathan Ing, also 19 and in Waterloo’s software engineering program, “but we don’t mingle.” Complains Waterloo student Simon Wang, a Chinese national who is frustrated by the segregation at Waterloo: “Why bother to come to Canada and pay five times as much to speak Chinese?” Meanwhile, Calgarian Joyce Chau identifies as “completely whitewashed,” a “banana”: “I look Asian but I’m white in all other respects.” Chau, a 19-year-old UBC business student, lived in residence her first year, where she met the majority of her (white) friends. “It’s harder to integrate into a group with Asians—you may or may not get introduced,” says Chau, who accepts the segregation as just “part of the university experience.”

Such balkanization is reflected in official student organizations: there is little Asian representation on student government, campus newspapers or college radio stations. At UBC, where the student body is roughly 40 per cent Asian, not one Asian sits on the student executive. Same goes for Waterloo. Asian students do, however, participate in organizations beyond the university mainstream, and long-standing cultural clubs function as a sort of ad hoc government. “After you graduate you won’t care about student government, but you’ll care about your club,” says Stan He, president of the Dragon Seed Connection, an on-campus Chinese club with over 300 members. (His business cards feature both dragon and robot motifs.) The Dragon Seed offers its members social functions, tutoring help, volunteer opportunities, poker and mah-jong tournaments, and special holiday parties—including at Halloween and Christmas. It even has an exclusive partnership with Solid Entertainment, a promotions and events-planning company that sponsors massive fundraising events and gives Dragon Seed exclusive selling rights on campus. He says that the dozen or so Asian clubs at UBC serve well over 4,000 students and cater to the whole spectrum of cultural identification— from “whitewashed” to “Honger,” a once pejorative term now adopted by students with Hong Kong backgrounds. The Dragon Seed lies somewhere in between—“We’re the middle ground,” He says. “We have international students, but we all speak English.”

Or take the Chinese Varsity Club. With upwards of 500 members, it’s the largest student social club at UBC. The executives say they’ve captured a niche market: Chinese commuter students from the outlying Richmond, Burnaby and North Vancouver communities who hope to find a social network at the big school. “Students from high school already hear about us from older brothers and sisters,” says Peter Yang, the 21-year-old accounting student who is the club’s VP external. “You want to break out of the cycle of studying and being lonely,” says Brian Cheung, its president.

The impact of high admissions rates for Asian students has been an issue for years in the U.S., where high school guidance counsellors have come to accept that it’s just more difficult to sell their Asian applicants to elite colleges. In 2006, at its annual meeting, the National Association for College Admission Counseling explored the issue in an expert panel discussion called “Too Asian?” One panellist, Rachel Cederberg—an Asian-American then working as an admissions official at Colorado College—described fellow admissions officers complaining of “yet another Asian student who wants to major in math and science and who plays the violin.” A Boston Globe article early this year asked, “Do colleges redline Asian-Americans?” and concluded there’s likely an “Asian ceiling” at elite U.S. universities. After California passed Proposition 209 in 1996 forbidding affirmative action in the state’s public dealings, Asians soared to 40 per cent of the population at public universities, even though they make up just 13 per cent of state residents. And U.S. studies suggest Ivy League schools have taken the issue of Asian academic prowess so seriously that they’ve operated with secret quotas for decades to maintain their WASP credentials.


In his 2009 book No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal, Princeton University sociologist Thomas Espenshade surveyed 10 elite U.S. universities and found that Asian applicants needed an extra 140 points on their SAT scores to be on equal footing with white applicants. Scandals over such unfair admissions practices have surfaced in recent years at Stanford, Harvard University, the University of California at Berkeley and elsewhere. Hsu, the Oregon physicist, draws a comparison between Asian-Americans and Jewish students who began arriving at the Ivy League in the first half of the last century. “You can find well-documented internal discussions at places like Harvard and Yale and Princeton about why we shouldn’t admit these people, they’re working so hard and they’re so obviously ambitious, but we want to keep our WASP [white anglo-saxon protestant] pedigree here.”

To quell the influx of Jewish students, Ivy League schools abandoned their meritocratic admissions processes in favour of one that focused on the details of an applicant’s private life—questions about race, religion, even about the maiden name of an applicant’s mother. Schools also began looking at such intangibles as character, personality and leadership potential. Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don’t quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts. Likely that is a good thing. And yet, that meritocratic process results, especially in Canada’s elite university programs, in a concentration of Asian students.


The upshot is that race is defining Canadian university campuses in a way it did not 25 years ago. Diversity has enriched these schools, but it has also put them at risk of being increasingly fractured along ethnic lines. It’s a superficial form of multiculturalism that is expressed in the main through segregated, self-selecting, discrete communities. It would behoove the leadership of our universities to recognize these issues and take them seriously. And yet, that’s exactly what’s not happening. Indeed, discussions with Canada’s top university presidents reveal for the most part that they are in a state of denial.

“This is a non-issue,” wrote U of T president David Naylor in an email. “We’ve never had a student complain about this. In fact, this is a false stereotype, as we know that Asian students are fully engaged in extracurricular activities. So the whole concept is false.”

As Cheryl Misak, the U of T’s VP and provost, puts it: “We have a properly diverse mix, with no particular group extra prominent—we’re the rainbow nation and we’ve got every sort of student and everyone is on merit.” Waterloo president Feridun Hamdullahpur echoes a similar sentiment. “There is a great tendency in our society to learn more about other nations and other cultures,” he says. “Universities are the hotbed of these kind of activities. If you want to see more economic and political diversity, I think they star.”

These positions arguably represent a missed opportunity. Universities have the potential of establishing real cultural change. It makes sense that the head of the Canadian university with perhaps the highest number of Asian students is the most candid and the most concerned. Indeed, Stephen Toope has, since his arrival in 2006 as UBC president, made the issue central to his agenda—including outreach and newspaper op-ed pieces touting the importance of making the university campus a meeting place not only of diversity but also of dialogue.

Among Canadian universities, UBC is one of the few institutions that publishes the ethnic makeup of its student body. Toope says that the university’s Asian student population is not “widely out of whack with the community,” although the stats tell a slightly different story. According to a 2009 UBC report on direct undergraduate entrants, 43 per cent of its students self-identify as ethnically Chinese, Korean or Japanese, as compared to 38 per cent who self-identify as white. Although Vancouver is a richly diverse city, according to data from the 2006 census, just 21.5 per cent of its residents identify as a Chinese, Korean or Japanese visible minority.

Toope says drawing the various communities present on Canadian campuses into a common medium can be challenging. “Across Canada it isn’t always the case that you’re seeing as much engagement from the new communities as perhaps we should,” he says. Toope uses the experience of Turkish immigrants in Germany as a cautionary tale—“there are groups that never find a way to participate in the broader community.” Such circumstances persist precisely because the issue of race is not attacked head on. “I don’t want to pretend that just because you have people from different backgrounds they’re going to interact—they’re not,” Toope says. “We have to actually create mechanisms, programs and opportunities for people to interact. A university is one of the places that has the greatest capacity to work through demographic change.”

Toope points us in the right direction. It’s unfair to change the meritocratic entry system, so all universities can do—all they should do—is encourage groups to mingle. Though it’s true that universities—U of T and Waterloo included—do have diversity programs and policies for students, newer, fresher ways are needed to help pry the ethnic ghettos open so everyone hangs out together. Or at least they have the chance to. The white kids may not find it’s too Asian after all. Alexandra, who chose to go to Western for the party scene, found she “hated being away from home” and moved back to Toronto. In retrospect, she didn’t like the vibe. “Some people just want to drink 23 hours a day.” Alexandra says she still has friends at Western who live in an “all-blond house” and are “stick thin.” Rachel, Alexandra’s friend, says Western suits them—“they work hard, get good grades, then slap on their clubbing clothes.” But it didn’t suit Alexandra. She now studies at U of T.


http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2010/11/10/too-asian/ ORIGINAL ARTICLE RETRACTED

Here is a news articles about the article:
http://www.torontolife.com/daily/informer/the-new-normal/2010/11/10/maclean’s-asks-if-u-of-t-is-“too-asian”/



---

I think this article both hits and misses. It's true that Asian students TEND to be higher achievers, that could be both the result of selective immigration picking educated parents and cultural values as stated in the article. I just think the stereotype that Asian students "aren't social" is really code for "don't do what we do". As they pointed out, Asian students TEND to dislike the drinking clubbing scene and favour playing table top games and likely video games at social events. How is this being anti-social? Since when is drinking and clubbing a requirement to be considered social, and since when was drinking and clubbing an essential part of the university culture that's being "lost" because of "too many Asians"?

The bit about Asians being the new Jews, and how bullshit "personality" admission criteria to strong academic programs are just excuses to secretly quota limit Asians struck me as obvious once I thought about it. I don't see how someone can be more "well rounded" because they play football instead of hosting LAN parties or Mah-Jong night, or why any of those things would affect how good an engineer or doctor you would be.

I think Macleans is overblowing the "too Asian" sentiment in Canada since we don't have the same level of anti-immigrant sentiment as the US. However, I do think that this thinking is starting to rise. The article does finally reach a good point about how universities should stick to merit-based admission and just encourage mingling between self-selecting groups on campus. However, mingling is something ALL groups need, not just Asian groups. It's not like Asian groups descriminate against whites, I know plenty of white people who are fully integrated into mostly Asian circles of friends simply because they value education and are a bit "nerdy" and they like to be with like-minded people.

I think the real question Macleans should be asking is not "how do we make Asians drink and club more" but instead "how do we make North American-born whites value education more than drinking and clubbing and sports".
qzmpwxno
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Papua New Guinea152 Posts
November 11 2010 02:48 GMT
#2
Affirmative action is wrong.
That's all I have to say.

User was temp banned for this post.
Stand on one block but own the whole street~
gogogadgetflow
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2583 Posts
November 11 2010 02:51 GMT
#3
On November 11 2010 11:48 qzmpwxno wrote:
Affirmative action is wrong.
That's all I have to say.


I suggest you at least skim the article and then edit your post so you look like less of a moron.
MonsieurGrimm
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada2441 Posts
November 11 2010 02:55 GMT
#4
On November 11 2010 11:43 Zzoram wrote:
I think the real question Macleans should be asking is not "how do we make Asians drink and club more" but instead "how do we make North American-born whites value education more than drinking and clubbing and sports".


The problem I have with that is that people should be allowed to set their own personal values, even if they aren't the best and they make people lean towards poor choices, if you take away a persons ability to choose what they think is important you're taking away a large part of their personality. And while I have absoloutely nothing against Asian people, the fact remains that as Maclean's stated:
Our highly selective immigration process means that we get many highly educated parents, so they have similar aspirations for their children
and so some Asian parents choose to try and force their values onto their children, which I am opposed to.
"60% of the time, it works - every time" - Brian Fantana on Double Reactors All The Way // "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-11 03:01:22
November 11 2010 02:56 GMT
#5
I don't see why VALUING EDUCATION WHILE ATTENDING SCHOOL is considered such a bad thing, and why do asians need to be encouraged to drink and club more? They have social interactions, it's just they tend to more often play games and do nerdy stuff which apparently doesn't count as "social" to Macleans.

Attending university isn't about becoming and expert clubber, it's about learning, learning how to learn, and establishing good work ethic.

As for schools worried about getting "too asian", why are they purposely admitting students that have worse grades or who care more about drinking than learning for the sake of staying "white enough"? Canada is doing the right thing by only looking at transcripts when it comes to going to university. Giving points for hobbies that white students are more likely to do just to get more white students on campus is ridiculous.
blagoonga123
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States2068 Posts
November 11 2010 02:57 GMT
#6
On November 11 2010 11:55 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
and so some Asian parents choose to try and force their values onto their children, which I am opposed to.


I thought the whole point of parenting was to try to ingrain some values onto your children.
FOOL! Pain is my friend! Now let me introduce you to it!
Tensai176
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Canada2061 Posts
November 11 2010 02:59 GMT
#7
On November 11 2010 11:56 Zzoram wrote:
I don't see why VALUING EDUCATION WHILE ATTENDING SCHOOL is considered such a bad thing, and why do asians need to be encouraged to drink and club more? They have social interactions, it's just they tend to more often play games and do nerdy stuff which apparently doesn't count as "social" to Macleans.

Attending university isn't about becoming and expert clubber, it's about learning, learning how to learn, and establishing good work ethic.

That's really true, school is for learning.

But University is a lot more, it's about networking, branching out socially and having the best time of your life. And it's hard to say that Asian-groups branch out socially...

From my experience at Waterloo and U of T, Asian people stick together, creating an easy intimidating wall just by speaking a different language.
We see things they'll never see
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-11 03:03:43
November 11 2010 03:02 GMT
#8
On November 11 2010 11:59 Tensai176 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2010 11:56 Zzoram wrote:
I don't see why VALUING EDUCATION WHILE ATTENDING SCHOOL is considered such a bad thing, and why do asians need to be encouraged to drink and club more? They have social interactions, it's just they tend to more often play games and do nerdy stuff which apparently doesn't count as "social" to Macleans.

Attending university isn't about becoming and expert clubber, it's about learning, learning how to learn, and establishing good work ethic.

That's really true, school is for learning.

But University is a lot more, it's about networking, branching out socially and having the best time of your life. And it's hard to say that Asian-groups branch out socially...

From my experience at Waterloo and U of T, Asian people stick together, creating an easy intimidating wall just by speaking a different language.


But how is that not socializing? Just because they're socializing mostly with asian students doesn't mean they're not socializing. Should white students be discouraged from socializing with mostly English speaking whites? These groups may look intimidating but what about the white students who go to keggers together? Don't you think that looks intimidating to a nerdy asian kid? It's not like white students are trying to socialize with asian students and failing, it goes both ways.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25995 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-11 03:03:33
November 11 2010 03:02 GMT
#9
Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).

It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.

Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
Moderator
Flakes
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States3125 Posts
November 11 2010 03:02 GMT
#10
As a half-asian, I was encouraged by counselors and my parents to identify as "white" or at least "multi-racial" when applying for college, since applying as an asian could hurt my chances.
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
November 11 2010 03:03 GMT
#11
Lol, you can boil the article down to:

How can we make the smart kids stop making the stupider kids feel bad about being stupid?

That's really how it reads. Asian's work so much harder than westerners. Although that's a broad stereotype, it's just true most of the time. People who club and drink a lot do badly in school. Broad stereotype, usually true.

Why the people who best deserve places at learning establishments should be decided by anything other than personal ability I don't know.
My. Copy. Is. Here.
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
November 11 2010 03:05 GMT
#12
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote:
Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).

It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.

Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.


I don't see how drinking and clubbing equals more socializing than LAN parties and board game nights. If anything, LAN parties and board game nights are MORE social because you can actually hear each other talk and will remember the conversation the next day.
chenchen
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1136 Posts
November 11 2010 03:05 GMT
#13
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote:
Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).

It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.

Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.


Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways.
powerade = dragoon blood
ZeaL.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5955 Posts
November 11 2010 03:06 GMT
#14
Complains Waterloo student Simon Wang, a Chinese national who is frustrated by the segregation at Waterloo: “Why bother to come to Canada and pay five times as much to speak Chinese?”


...

They pay 5 times as much so they can get that Canadian degree which they use to go home and make more money. For international students why the hell WOULDN'T you want to hang out with people of your country of origin. It's probably a good idea to get them to interact with the native population but you can't fault them for wanting to hang out with people they can actually speak to without feeling embarrassed about their accent.
MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
November 11 2010 03:07 GMT
#15
"Model minority" is a problem only if you want it to be a problem. Asian culture values education more highly than does Western culture, so it's natural that college achievement be higher in those cultures. The solution isn't to lock out good students, but rather to encourage higher overall performance in those that are underacheiving.
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
November 11 2010 03:09 GMT
#16
The article cites a lot of opinions. This article isn’t actually trying to say something. It’s implying that Asians are all cloistered, but to there are big issues in the opinions and themes in the article.

1) It is incredibly stereotypical. Not just “Asians study” but they take people’s opinions and then assume they are facts. Case in point
+ Show Spoiler +
"Their parents would come in and write in the resumé letters that they were in clubs. But the kids weren’t able to do anything in those clubs because they were academically focused.”


2) It confuses Canadian-Asians and International students. All right, I understand maybe Canadian-Asians study harder in high schools. But these students are not the ‘cloister immigrants that can only speak chinese’. High school students are pretty social.
+ Show Spoiler +
The division is perhaps most extreme at Waterloo, where students have dubbed the MC and DC buildings—the Mathematics & Computer Building and the William G. Davis Computer Research Centre, respectively—“mainland China” and “downtown China,” and where some students told Maclean’s they can go for days without speaking English.


3) It is decidedly anti-chinese. Canada is already a multiligual language. But somehow it’s not okay to speak Chinese if its your native language.
+ Show Spoiler +
Writes one Waterloo mathematics graduate on an online forum: “I once had a tutorial session for the whole class where the TA got frustrated with speaking English and started giving the answer in Mandarin. A lot of the class understood his answer.”
I find it strange that someone would say it’s not okay to use your native language to try to explain something that you can’t express. Your students could help you translate. This wouldn’t be a problem if someone spoke in French, so why is it a problem that he spoke in Chinese?


Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
Reason.SC2
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1047 Posts
November 11 2010 03:09 GMT
#17
Tangent:

There is a downside to the type of single-minded over-achiever culture that dominates these competitive schools. I have heard this from recruiters first hand and some very reputable big-name companies (which I will not mention) are beginning to take note:

A lot of the over-achievers work very hard to get where they're at. This comes at a cost though most of the time: underdeveloped social skills and emotional maturity can make this type of person very undesirable to work with, and bottom line less productive in a real job environment despite the good grades and know-how.

This of course has nothing to do with someone being Asian or not as single-minded study monsters that overachieve throughout the education process can be of any race or creed. More so it is to say that the "big-name" schools, which people compete to get into so that they can study 24/7 to be able to keep up with their class, are not nearly as desirable as they are made out to be.

Especially today where an undergrad degree is pretty much as useful as a roll of toilet paper... what matters most is where you *finish*. IMO to anyone reading this considering university, go to a school that will be less competitive. Focus on doing well there but don't forget to develop your social skills and personal maturity through having meaningful life experiences that go beyond getting an A+ in chem 101 or being an 'executive member' at the law and society club. Make sure that the school you go to for your Masters/PHD (or law school/med school, etc.) has a good reputation and really put in the work there... but for gods sake you're wasting time if you think an undergrad degree at a reputable school where you have to enslave yourself to books is worth anything.
SWPIGWANG
Profile Joined June 2008
Canada482 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-11 03:12:14
November 11 2010 03:09 GMT
#18
I went to UoT and my social life consisted of watching and playing Starcraft with other asians (and white folks that die horribly)...IS THAT WRONG? :mad:

Starcraft: better than drinking
Krigwin
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1130 Posts
November 11 2010 03:09 GMT
#19
American (and I guess, Canadian, judging by this article, although I have no experience with that) culture regarding education is all wrong. Why is athleticism and alcoholism considered the norm when they have no bearing on educational success, instead of intellect and work ethic?

This kind of bizarre reverse-affirmative action is just hilarious and further proof of the world passing America by. I personally hope Asian students never "mingle" and fully assimilate into this kind of culture and retain their ethnic behavior, Americans should be encouraged to catch up rather than told everyone should be like them.
yoplate
Profile Joined August 2010
United States332 Posts
November 11 2010 03:10 GMT
#20
I would say on some levels this article is right. The majority of asian students that I know will skip a party to finish homework/study, while the majority of white students I know will go to the party and not do the homework. It is blown out of proportion in the article, but there is definitely a difference in work ethics between the two groups.
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