By Stephanie Findlay and Nicholas Kohler | November 10th, 2010 | 9:55 am
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A term used in the U.S. to talk about racial imbalance at Ivy league schools is now being whispered on Canadian campuses.
When Alexandra and her friend Rachel, both graduates of Toronto’s Havergal College, an all-girls private school, were deciding which university to go to, they didn’t even bother considering the University of Toronto. “The only people from our school who went to U of T were Asian,” explains Alexandra, a second-year student who looks like a girl from an Aritzia billboard. “All the white kids,” she says, “go to Queen’s, Western and McGill.”
Alexandra eventually chose the University of Western Ontario. Her younger brother, now a high school senior deciding where he’d like to go, will head “either east, west or to McGill”—unusual academic options, but in keeping with what he wants from his university experience. “East would suit him because it’s chill, out west he could be a ski bum,” says Alexandra, who explains her little brother wants to study hard, but is also looking for a good time—which rules out U of T, a school with an academic reputation that can be a bit of a killjoy.
Or, as Alexandra puts it—she asked that her real name not be used in this article, and broached the topic of race at universities hesitantly—a “reputation of being Asian.”
Discussing the role that race plays in the self-selecting communities that more and more characterize university campuses makes many people uncomfortable. Still, an “Asian” school has come to mean one that is so academically focused that some students feel they can no longer compete or have fun. Indeed, Rachel, Alexandra and her brother belong to a growing cohort of student that’s eschewing some big-name schools over perceptions that they’re “too Asian.” It’s a term being used in some U.S. academic circles to describe a phenomenon that’s become such a cause for concern to university admissions officers and high school guidance counsellors that several elite universities to the south have faced scandals in recent years over limiting Asian applicants and keeping the numbers of white students artificially high.
Although university administrators here are loath to discuss the issue, students talk about it all the time. “Too Asian” is not about racism, say students like Alexandra: many white students simply believe that competing with Asians—both Asian Canadians and international students—requires a sacrifice of time and freedom they’re not willing to make. They complain that they can’t compete for spots in the best schools and can’t party as much as they’d like (too bad for them, most will say). Asian kids, meanwhile, say they are resented for taking the spots of white kids. “At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”
That Asian students work harder is a fact born out by hard data. They tend to be strivers, high achievers and single-minded in their approach to university. Stephen Hsu, a physics prof at the University of Oregon who has written about the often subtle forms of discrimination faced by Asian-American university applicants, describes them as doing “disproportionately well—they tend to have high SAT scores, good grades in high school, and a lot of them really want to go to top universities.” In Canada, say Canadian high school guidance counsellors, that means the top-tier post-secondary institutions with international profiles specializing in math, science and business: U of T, UBC and the University of Waterloo. White students, by contrast, are more likely to choose universities and build their school lives around social interaction, athletics and self-actualization—and, yes, alcohol. When the two styles collide, the result is separation rather than integration.
The dilemma is this: Canadian institutions operate as pure meritocracies when it comes to admissions, and admirably so. Privately, however, many in the education community worry that universities risk becoming too skewed one way, changing campus life—a debate that’s been more or less out in the open in the U.S. for years but remains muted here. And that puts Canadian universities in a quandary. If they openly address the issue of race they expose themselves to criticisms that they are profiling and committing an injustice. If they don’t, Canada’s universities, far from the cultural mosaics they’re supposed to be—oases of dialogue, mutual understanding and diversity—risk becoming places of many solitudes, deserts of non-communication. It’s a tough question to have to think about.
Asian-Canadian students are far more likely to talk about and assert their ethnic identities than white students. “I’m Asian,” going back to Confucius, of social mobility based on merit.” Demographics contribute to the high degree of academic success among Asian- Canadian students. “Our highly selective immigration process means that we get many highly educated parents, so they have similar aspirations for their children,” says Robert Sweet, a retired Lakehead University education prof who has studied the parenting styles of immigrants as they relate to education. Sweet’s latest study, “Post-high school pathways of immigrant youth,” released last month, found that more than 70 per cent of students in the Toronto District School Board who immigrated from East Asia went on to university, compared to 52 per cent of Europeans, the next highest group, and 12 per cent of Caribbean, the lowest. This is in contrast to English-speaking Toronto students born in Canada—of which just 42 per cent confirmed admission to university.
Diane Bondy, a recently retired Ottawa area guidance counsellor, notes that by the end of her 20-year career, competition among some Asian parents had reached a fever pitch. “Asian parents do their homework and the students are going to U of T or they’re going to Queen’s,” says Bondy, who points out that “Asians get more support from their parents financially and academically.” She also observed that the focus on academics was often to the exclusion of social interaction. “The kids were getting 98 per cent but they didn’t have other skills,” she says. “Their parents would come in and write in the resumé letters that they were in clubs. But the kids weren’t able to do anything in those clubs because they were academically focused.” says 21-year-old Susie Su, a third-year student at UBC’s Sauder School of Business. “I do have traditional Asian parents. I feel the pressure of finding a good job and raising a good family.” That pressure helps shape more than just the way Su handles study and school assignments; it shapes the way she interacts with her colleagues. “If I feel like it’s going to be an event where it’s all white people, I probably wouldn’t want to go,” she says. “There’s a lot of just drinking. It’s not that I don’t like white people. But you tend to hang out with people of the same race.”
Catherine Costigan, a psychology assistant prof at the University of Victoria, says it’s unsurprising that Asian students are segregated from “mainstream” campus life. She cites studies that show Chinese youth are bullied more than their non-Asian peers. As a so-called “model minority,” they are more frequently targeted because of being “too smart” and “teachers’ pets.” To counter peer ostracism and resentment, Costigan says Chinese students reaffirm their ethnicity.
The value of education has been drilled into Asian students by their parents, likely for cultural and socio-economic reasons. “It’s often described that Asians are the new Jews,” says Jon Reider, director of college counselling at San Francisco University High School and a former Stanford University admissions officer. “That in the face of discrimination, what you do is you study. And there’s a long tradition in Chinese culture, for example, going back to Confucius, of social mobility based on merit.”
Students can carry that narrow scope into university, where they risk alienating their more fun-loving peers. The division is perhaps most extreme at Waterloo, where students have dubbed the MC and DC buildings—the Mathematics & Computer Building and the William G. Davis Computer Research Centre, respectively—“mainland China” and “downtown China,” and where some students told Maclean’s they can go for days without speaking English. Writes one Waterloo mathematics graduate on an online forum: “I once had a tutorial session for the whole class where the TA got frustrated with speaking English and started giving the answer in Mandarin. A lot of the class understood his answer.”
“My dad said if you don’t go into engineering, I won’t pay your tuition,” says Jason Yin, a Taiwanese software engineering student at Waterloo. “They are very traditional. They believe school is about work, studying, go home and studying some more.” Hard-studying Waterloo lends itself particularly to those goals. “We had a problem getting students out of their bedrooms,” says Nikki Best, a former residence don who sits on Waterloo’s student government, who explains they “didn’t want to get behind in their grades because of coming out to social events.” [Nikki Best said her quote was taken out of context, she was referring to students in general not just Asian students]
That’s not to say Asian students form any sort of monolithic presence on Canadian campuses. “The mainland China group tends to stick together,” says Anthony Wong, 19, a Waterloo software engineering student. “We can talk to them,” says Jonathan Ing, also 19 and in Waterloo’s software engineering program, “but we don’t mingle.” Complains Waterloo student Simon Wang, a Chinese national who is frustrated by the segregation at Waterloo: “Why bother to come to Canada and pay five times as much to speak Chinese?” Meanwhile, Calgarian Joyce Chau identifies as “completely whitewashed,” a “banana”: “I look Asian but I’m white in all other respects.” Chau, a 19-year-old UBC business student, lived in residence her first year, where she met the majority of her (white) friends. “It’s harder to integrate into a group with Asians—you may or may not get introduced,” says Chau, who accepts the segregation as just “part of the university experience.”
Such balkanization is reflected in official student organizations: there is little Asian representation on student government, campus newspapers or college radio stations. At UBC, where the student body is roughly 40 per cent Asian, not one Asian sits on the student executive. Same goes for Waterloo. Asian students do, however, participate in organizations beyond the university mainstream, and long-standing cultural clubs function as a sort of ad hoc government. “After you graduate you won’t care about student government, but you’ll care about your club,” says Stan He, president of the Dragon Seed Connection, an on-campus Chinese club with over 300 members. (His business cards feature both dragon and robot motifs.) The Dragon Seed offers its members social functions, tutoring help, volunteer opportunities, poker and mah-jong tournaments, and special holiday parties—including at Halloween and Christmas. It even has an exclusive partnership with Solid Entertainment, a promotions and events-planning company that sponsors massive fundraising events and gives Dragon Seed exclusive selling rights on campus. He says that the dozen or so Asian clubs at UBC serve well over 4,000 students and cater to the whole spectrum of cultural identification— from “whitewashed” to “Honger,” a once pejorative term now adopted by students with Hong Kong backgrounds. The Dragon Seed lies somewhere in between—“We’re the middle ground,” He says. “We have international students, but we all speak English.”
Or take the Chinese Varsity Club. With upwards of 500 members, it’s the largest student social club at UBC. The executives say they’ve captured a niche market: Chinese commuter students from the outlying Richmond, Burnaby and North Vancouver communities who hope to find a social network at the big school. “Students from high school already hear about us from older brothers and sisters,” says Peter Yang, the 21-year-old accounting student who is the club’s VP external. “You want to break out of the cycle of studying and being lonely,” says Brian Cheung, its president.
The impact of high admissions rates for Asian students has been an issue for years in the U.S., where high school guidance counsellors have come to accept that it’s just more difficult to sell their Asian applicants to elite colleges. In 2006, at its annual meeting, the National Association for College Admission Counseling explored the issue in an expert panel discussion called “Too Asian?” One panellist, Rachel Cederberg—an Asian-American then working as an admissions official at Colorado College—described fellow admissions officers complaining of “yet another Asian student who wants to major in math and science and who plays the violin.” A Boston Globe article early this year asked, “Do colleges redline Asian-Americans?” and concluded there’s likely an “Asian ceiling” at elite U.S. universities. After California passed Proposition 209 in 1996 forbidding affirmative action in the state’s public dealings, Asians soared to 40 per cent of the population at public universities, even though they make up just 13 per cent of state residents. And U.S. studies suggest Ivy League schools have taken the issue of Asian academic prowess so seriously that they’ve operated with secret quotas for decades to maintain their WASP credentials.
In his 2009 book No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal, Princeton University sociologist Thomas Espenshade surveyed 10 elite U.S. universities and found that Asian applicants needed an extra 140 points on their SAT scores to be on equal footing with white applicants. Scandals over such unfair admissions practices have surfaced in recent years at Stanford, Harvard University, the University of California at Berkeley and elsewhere. Hsu, the Oregon physicist, draws a comparison between Asian-Americans and Jewish students who began arriving at the Ivy League in the first half of the last century. “You can find well-documented internal discussions at places like Harvard and Yale and Princeton about why we shouldn’t admit these people, they’re working so hard and they’re so obviously ambitious, but we want to keep our WASP [white anglo-saxon protestant] pedigree here.” To quell the influx of Jewish students, Ivy League schools abandoned their meritocratic admissions processes in favour of one that focused on the details of an applicant’s private life—questions about race, religion, even about the maiden name of an applicant’s mother. Schools also began looking at such intangibles as character, personality and leadership potential. Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don’t quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts. Likely that is a good thing. And yet, that meritocratic process results, especially in Canada’s elite university programs, in a concentration of Asian students.
The upshot is that race is defining Canadian university campuses in a way it did not 25 years ago. Diversity has enriched these schools, but it has also put them at risk of being increasingly fractured along ethnic lines. It’s a superficial form of multiculturalism that is expressed in the main through segregated, self-selecting, discrete communities. It would behoove the leadership of our universities to recognize these issues and take them seriously. And yet, that’s exactly what’s not happening. Indeed, discussions with Canada’s top university presidents reveal for the most part that they are in a state of denial.
“This is a non-issue,” wrote U of T president David Naylor in an email. “We’ve never had a student complain about this. In fact, this is a false stereotype, as we know that Asian students are fully engaged in extracurricular activities. So the whole concept is false.”
As Cheryl Misak, the U of T’s VP and provost, puts it: “We have a properly diverse mix, with no particular group extra prominent—we’re the rainbow nation and we’ve got every sort of student and everyone is on merit.” Waterloo president Feridun Hamdullahpur echoes a similar sentiment. “There is a great tendency in our society to learn more about other nations and other cultures,” he says. “Universities are the hotbed of these kind of activities. If you want to see more economic and political diversity, I think they star.”
These positions arguably represent a missed opportunity. Universities have the potential of establishing real cultural change. It makes sense that the head of the Canadian university with perhaps the highest number of Asian students is the most candid and the most concerned. Indeed, Stephen Toope has, since his arrival in 2006 as UBC president, made the issue central to his agenda—including outreach and newspaper op-ed pieces touting the importance of making the university campus a meeting place not only of diversity but also of dialogue.
Among Canadian universities, UBC is one of the few institutions that publishes the ethnic makeup of its student body. Toope says that the university’s Asian student population is not “widely out of whack with the community,” although the stats tell a slightly different story. According to a 2009 UBC report on direct undergraduate entrants, 43 per cent of its students self-identify as ethnically Chinese, Korean or Japanese, as compared to 38 per cent who self-identify as white. Although Vancouver is a richly diverse city, according to data from the 2006 census, just 21.5 per cent of its residents identify as a Chinese, Korean or Japanese visible minority.
Toope says drawing the various communities present on Canadian campuses into a common medium can be challenging. “Across Canada it isn’t always the case that you’re seeing as much engagement from the new communities as perhaps we should,” he says. Toope uses the experience of Turkish immigrants in Germany as a cautionary tale—“there are groups that never find a way to participate in the broader community.” Such circumstances persist precisely because the issue of race is not attacked head on. “I don’t want to pretend that just because you have people from different backgrounds they’re going to interact—they’re not,” Toope says. “We have to actually create mechanisms, programs and opportunities for people to interact. A university is one of the places that has the greatest capacity to work through demographic change.”
Toope points us in the right direction. It’s unfair to change the meritocratic entry system, so all universities can do—all they should do—is encourage groups to mingle. Though it’s true that universities—U of T and Waterloo included—do have diversity programs and policies for students, newer, fresher ways are needed to help pry the ethnic ghettos open so everyone hangs out together. Or at least they have the chance to. The white kids may not find it’s too Asian after all. Alexandra, who chose to go to Western for the party scene, found she “hated being away from home” and moved back to Toronto. In retrospect, she didn’t like the vibe. “Some people just want to drink 23 hours a day.” Alexandra says she still has friends at Western who live in an “all-blond house” and are “stick thin.” Rachel, Alexandra’s friend, says Western suits them—“they work hard, get good grades, then slap on their clubbing clothes.” But it didn’t suit Alexandra. She now studies at U of T.
I think this article both hits and misses. It's true that Asian students TEND to be higher achievers, that could be both the result of selective immigration picking educated parents and cultural values as stated in the article. I just think the stereotype that Asian students "aren't social" is really code for "don't do what we do". As they pointed out, Asian students TEND to dislike the drinking clubbing scene and favour playing table top games and likely video games at social events. How is this being anti-social? Since when is drinking and clubbing a requirement to be considered social, and since when was drinking and clubbing an essential part of the university culture that's being "lost" because of "too many Asians"?
The bit about Asians being the new Jews, and how bullshit "personality" admission criteria to strong academic programs are just excuses to secretly quota limit Asians struck me as obvious once I thought about it. I don't see how someone can be more "well rounded" because they play football instead of hosting LAN parties or Mah-Jong night, or why any of those things would affect how good an engineer or doctor you would be.
I think Macleans is overblowing the "too Asian" sentiment in Canada since we don't have the same level of anti-immigrant sentiment as the US. However, I do think that this thinking is starting to rise. The article does finally reach a good point about how universities should stick to merit-based admission and just encourage mingling between self-selecting groups on campus. However, mingling is something ALL groups need, not just Asian groups. It's not like Asian groups descriminate against whites, I know plenty of white people who are fully integrated into mostly Asian circles of friends simply because they value education and are a bit "nerdy" and they like to be with like-minded people.
I think the real question Macleans should be asking is not "how do we make Asians drink and club more" but instead "how do we make North American-born whites value education more than drinking and clubbing and sports".
On November 11 2010 11:43 Zzoram wrote: I think the real question Macleans should be asking is not "how do we make Asians drink and club more" but instead "how do we make North American-born whites value education more than drinking and clubbing and sports".
The problem I have with that is that people should be allowed to set their own personal values, even if they aren't the best and they make people lean towards poor choices, if you take away a persons ability to choose what they think is important you're taking away a large part of their personality. And while I have absoloutely nothing against Asian people, the fact remains that as Maclean's stated:
Our highly selective immigration process means that we get many highly educated parents, so they have similar aspirations for their children
and so some Asian parents choose to try and force their values onto their children, which I am opposed to.
I don't see why VALUING EDUCATION WHILE ATTENDING SCHOOL is considered such a bad thing, and why do asians need to be encouraged to drink and club more? They have social interactions, it's just they tend to more often play games and do nerdy stuff which apparently doesn't count as "social" to Macleans.
Attending university isn't about becoming and expert clubber, it's about learning, learning how to learn, and establishing good work ethic.
As for schools worried about getting "too asian", why are they purposely admitting students that have worse grades or who care more about drinking than learning for the sake of staying "white enough"? Canada is doing the right thing by only looking at transcripts when it comes to going to university. Giving points for hobbies that white students are more likely to do just to get more white students on campus is ridiculous.
On November 11 2010 11:55 MonsieurGrimm wrote: and so some Asian parents choose to try and force their values onto their children, which I am opposed to.
I thought the whole point of parenting was to try to ingrain some values onto your children.
On November 11 2010 11:56 Zzoram wrote: I don't see why VALUING EDUCATION WHILE ATTENDING SCHOOL is considered such a bad thing, and why do asians need to be encouraged to drink and club more? They have social interactions, it's just they tend to more often play games and do nerdy stuff which apparently doesn't count as "social" to Macleans.
Attending university isn't about becoming and expert clubber, it's about learning, learning how to learn, and establishing good work ethic.
That's really true, school is for learning.
But University is a lot more, it's about networking, branching out socially and having the best time of your life. And it's hard to say that Asian-groups branch out socially...
From my experience at Waterloo and U of T, Asian people stick together, creating an easy intimidating wall just by speaking a different language.
On November 11 2010 11:56 Zzoram wrote: I don't see why VALUING EDUCATION WHILE ATTENDING SCHOOL is considered such a bad thing, and why do asians need to be encouraged to drink and club more? They have social interactions, it's just they tend to more often play games and do nerdy stuff which apparently doesn't count as "social" to Macleans.
Attending university isn't about becoming and expert clubber, it's about learning, learning how to learn, and establishing good work ethic.
That's really true, school is for learning.
But University is a lot more, it's about networking, branching out socially and having the best time of your life. And it's hard to say that Asian-groups branch out socially...
From my experience at Waterloo and U of T, Asian people stick together, creating an easy intimidating wall just by speaking a different language.
But how is that not socializing? Just because they're socializing mostly with asian students doesn't mean they're not socializing. Should white students be discouraged from socializing with mostly English speaking whites? These groups may look intimidating but what about the white students who go to keggers together? Don't you think that looks intimidating to a nerdy asian kid? It's not like white students are trying to socialize with asian students and failing, it goes both ways.
Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
As a half-asian, I was encouraged by counselors and my parents to identify as "white" or at least "multi-racial" when applying for college, since applying as an asian could hurt my chances.
How can we make the smart kids stop making the stupider kids feel bad about being stupid?
That's really how it reads. Asian's work so much harder than westerners. Although that's a broad stereotype, it's just true most of the time. People who club and drink a lot do badly in school. Broad stereotype, usually true.
Why the people who best deserve places at learning establishments should be decided by anything other than personal ability I don't know.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
I don't see how drinking and clubbing equals more socializing than LAN parties and board game nights. If anything, LAN parties and board game nights are MORE social because you can actually hear each other talk and will remember the conversation the next day.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways.
Complains Waterloo student Simon Wang, a Chinese national who is frustrated by the segregation at Waterloo: “Why bother to come to Canada and pay five times as much to speak Chinese?”
...
They pay 5 times as much so they can get that Canadian degree which they use to go home and make more money. For international students why the hell WOULDN'T you want to hang out with people of your country of origin. It's probably a good idea to get them to interact with the native population but you can't fault them for wanting to hang out with people they can actually speak to without feeling embarrassed about their accent.
"Model minority" is a problem only if you want it to be a problem. Asian culture values education more highly than does Western culture, so it's natural that college achievement be higher in those cultures. The solution isn't to lock out good students, but rather to encourage higher overall performance in those that are underacheiving.
The article cites a lot of opinions. This article isn’t actually trying to say something. It’s implying that Asians are all cloistered, but to there are big issues in the opinions and themes in the article.
1) It is incredibly stereotypical. Not just “Asians study” but they take people’s opinions and then assume they are facts. Case in point + Show Spoiler +
"Their parents would come in and write in the resumé letters that they were in clubs. But the kids weren’t able to do anything in those clubs because they were academically focused.”
2) It confuses Canadian-Asians and International students. All right, I understand maybe Canadian-Asians study harder in high schools. But these students are not the ‘cloister immigrants that can only speak chinese’. High school students are pretty social. + Show Spoiler +
The division is perhaps most extreme at Waterloo, where students have dubbed the MC and DC buildings—the Mathematics & Computer Building and the William G. Davis Computer Research Centre, respectively—“mainland China” and “downtown China,” and where some students told Maclean’s they can go for days without speaking English.
3) It is decidedly anti-chinese. Canada is already a multiligual language. But somehow it’s not okay to speak Chinese if its your native language. + Show Spoiler +
Writes one Waterloo mathematics graduate on an online forum: “I once had a tutorial session for the whole class where the TA got frustrated with speaking English and started giving the answer in Mandarin. A lot of the class understood his answer.”
I find it strange that someone would say it’s not okay to use your native language to try to explain something that you can’t express. Your students could help you translate. This wouldn’t be a problem if someone spoke in French, so why is it a problem that he spoke in Chinese?
There is a downside to the type of single-minded over-achiever culture that dominates these competitive schools. I have heard this from recruiters first hand and some very reputable big-name companies (which I will not mention) are beginning to take note:
A lot of the over-achievers work very hard to get where they're at. This comes at a cost though most of the time: underdeveloped social skills and emotional maturity can make this type of person very undesirable to work with, and bottom line less productive in a real job environment despite the good grades and know-how.
This of course has nothing to do with someone being Asian or not as single-minded study monsters that overachieve throughout the education process can be of any race or creed. More so it is to say that the "big-name" schools, which people compete to get into so that they can study 24/7 to be able to keep up with their class, are not nearly as desirable as they are made out to be.
Especially today where an undergrad degree is pretty much as useful as a roll of toilet paper... what matters most is where you *finish*. IMO to anyone reading this considering university, go to a school that will be less competitive. Focus on doing well there but don't forget to develop your social skills and personal maturity through having meaningful life experiences that go beyond getting an A+ in chem 101 or being an 'executive member' at the law and society club. Make sure that the school you go to for your Masters/PHD (or law school/med school, etc.) has a good reputation and really put in the work there... but for gods sake you're wasting time if you think an undergrad degree at a reputable school where you have to enslave yourself to books is worth anything.
I went to UoT and my social life consisted of watching and playing Starcraft with other asians (and white folks that die horribly)...IS THAT WRONG? :mad:
American (and I guess, Canadian, judging by this article, although I have no experience with that) culture regarding education is all wrong. Why is athleticism and alcoholism considered the norm when they have no bearing on educational success, instead of intellect and work ethic?
This kind of bizarre reverse-affirmative action is just hilarious and further proof of the world passing America by. I personally hope Asian students never "mingle" and fully assimilate into this kind of culture and retain their ethnic behavior, Americans should be encouraged to catch up rather than told everyone should be like them.
I would say on some levels this article is right. The majority of asian students that I know will skip a party to finish homework/study, while the majority of white students I know will go to the party and not do the homework. It is blown out of proportion in the article, but there is definitely a difference in work ethics between the two groups.
On November 11 2010 11:48 qzmpwxno wrote: Affirmative action is wrong. That's all I have to say.
I suggest you at least skim the article and then edit your post so you look like less of a moron.
Did YOU read the article? What he said was completely relevant to one of the major points of the article, and that is, limiting the number of Asians--overtly or otherwise--admitted to schools in order to preserve a WASP identity.
What separates the category of Asians from past AA like low-income or underprivileged factors is that we are now solely talking about race as a determining factor. It's kind of sad really.
Universities are such bullshit. I go to UC Berkeley, and while there are a lot of Asians (California, hello), there are a ton of non-asians who are dumb as shit and still got in. It's starting to make me wonder.
Back when I was at Waterloo, a (white) guy I knew was upset about "Asians sticking together" and wrote a letter to the school newspaper to complain. Created a shitstorm in the letters section of the newspaper that lasted for weeks afterwards. As far as I can tell, people who make this complaint rarely take positive action on their own part, ie. going out of their way to meet people of other ethnicities. Personally, I met a lot of people of different ethnicities at school simply by being friendly and talking to people. Amazing how well it worked.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
oh yeah, in the past 2-3 years i've been in UofT my social life has definitely gone nowhere.
the thing about asian people choosing universities like uoft (im asian) is that, in asian places such as hong kong, you can get a job easily if you have a degree from a university thats known. no one in hong kong ever heard of university of western ontario, york and will probably assume it to be third rate when you present it on your resume, but when you're coming from toronto university, they'll think you're pretty smart (though i'm doing so bad lol)
fuck dis im asian and i think grades are pretty damn important but i have my fun im not always working i play Sc to relax after a test and just because im sober and prefer staying at home that makes me weird ill ltell u whats weird ppl telling me how to live my life fuck those assholes telling me i should be a drunk i like being at home
Then again, socializing can build great contacts. Having good friends and contact later in life can serve you more than other things. There is more to life than only academic education.
I'm currently in University, but I don't party much and avoid drinking. I'm not asian though :O I'm not particularly strong at studying and prefer to develop critical thinking on my own time. University classes are more akin to brain washing than development of the human intellect.
I'm going to have to voice the disdain of anti-asianness in admissions... it's just wrong. Asians aren't robots, they're people just like everybody else. There are just a lot of them, and a lot of them that happen to work really hard.
I have to say that I feel that my chances of getting into college were hampered by being half-asian.
On November 11 2010 12:09 Reason.SC2 wrote: Tangent:
There is a downside to the type of single-minded over-achiever culture that dominates these competitive schools. I have heard this from recruiters first hand and some very reputable big-name companies (which I will not mention) are beginning to take note:
A lot of the over-achievers work very hard to get where they're at. This comes at a cost though most of the time: underdeveloped social skills and emotional maturity can make this type of person very undesirable to work with, and bottom line less productive in a real job environment despite the good grades and know-how.
This of course has nothing to do with someone being Asian or not as single-minded study monsters that overachieve throughout the education process can be of any race or creed. More so it is to say that the "big-name" schools, which people compete to get into so that they can study 24/7 to be able to keep up with their class, are not nearly as desirable as they are made out to be.
Especially today where an undergrad degree is pretty much as useful as a roll of toilet paper... what matters most is where you *finish*. IMO to anyone reading this considering university, go to a school that will be less competitive. Focus on doing well there but don't forget to develop your social skills and personal maturity through having meaningful life experiences that go beyond getting an A+ in chem 101 or being an 'executive member' at the law and society club. Make sure that the school you go to for your Masters/PHD (or law school/med school, etc.) has a good reputation and really put in the work there... but for gods sake you're wasting time if you think an undergrad degree at a reputable school where you have to enslave yourself to books is worth anything.
It's pretty much a known fact all Asians go to class, go back, study, study, study some more. Its just the way asian parenting works, where you get drilled to have a good work ethic.
The article is quite true, but hey, why would you care so much about what they say or think? Sure they have fun, get the "social experience", party, drink, etc. Its fine if that's what they want to do, everyone's got a choice how they want to live.
But then asians spend time on their grades, because its the smart thing to do. sure you miss out on being social for a few years, but 10 years later when your living off 6 figures a year and on a yacht ballin' with other rich people you'll thank yourself and laugh at all the idiots you knew in university who got shit faced everyday.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways.
Hell yeah. Last friday we had a Hotwheels tournament.
People with a different cultural upbringing (i.e. international, Asian students) are going to 'stick together'. In fact, it's not just limited to Asians as a group. Koreans have their own cliques, as do Japanese and Chinese students. I went to an international school in China for high school, and it was exactly the same there. It's also largely due to the language barrier.
On November 11 2010 12:18 Arterial wrote: Well, its kinda different here in Melbourne (Australia), a lot of the asians here are clubbers partiers whilst being high achievers.
Hah, my last roommate was an exchange student from U of Melbourne and he was exactly as you describe. Apparently they party really hard over there. O_o
Maybe us Asians would like to finish our assignments a few days before the deadline or study a few days/week ahead of time for an impending exam, instead of partying/clubbing until the last minute to write/cram while smashed.
I think many Asians (not specifically Chinese) have been brought up to value their education and to work hard earlier on (up through the university stages and maybe post-grad) so that they can enjoy life later on after they have a steady job or have some form of income. It's not that Asians are unsocial at university/college/school, it's just perhaps the wrong time of their life to say anything critical about it.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario...
On November 11 2010 12:09 Reason.SC2 wrote: Tangent:
There is a downside...
Both of you raise basically the same point, in that social networking and social skills are integral to having a successful career in many fields, but that raises the fundamental problem with this dynamic:
You go to a university to learn. What happens at a university? You are educated. What is the measure of success at a university? Getting good marks. The fact that social skills are just as necessary is implied, never stated, this is a cultural difference. You're right that the social aspect is an important part of a university education, but this is of implied importance. Immigrants of any race don't know this, they think success is getting good marks.
If the social aspect is just as important, and universities want to provide a balanced education, then the social aspect should be taught, it shouldn't just be implicitly assumed that students will get it naturally through frats or clubbing or employment or whatnot.
On November 11 2010 12:14 Tdelamay wrote: Then again, socializing can build great contacts. Having good friends and contact later in life can serve you more than other things. There is more to life than only academic education.
I'm currently in University, but I don't party much and avoid drinking. I'm not asian though :O I'm not particularly strong at studying and prefer to develop critical thinking on my own time. University classes are more akin to brain washing than development of the human intellect.
What I'm trying to say is that socialization isn't uniquely drunken clubbing. Asian students socialize and network, they just do it sober and over a board game or starcraft instead of in a club where they can't hear their own voice.
On November 11 2010 12:10 Nagano wrote: Universities are such bullshit. I go to UC Berkeley, and while there are a lot of Asians (California, hello), there are a ton of non-asians who are dumb as shit and still got in. It's starting to make me wonder.
to be honest i felt the same way about USC sometimes.
i think out of my 4 years there i probably met less than 10 asians that i felt were "too stupid" to be at USC, whereas i definitely that way more often about non-asians.
I'm from U of T and while education is really important(they really really value that here), networking is as well. The peers I have now have be potential to be of assistance to me in the workforce post grad. Since many students at U of T are international, it would make sense for such individuals to mingle with the people from the same set. And honestly, I see people in my class go drinking the night before the midterm and then complain that the midterm was ridiculously hard and that Asians should stop pulling up the average so that the prof can curve marks. Like seriously, are you purposely thick? although I encourage these people not to drop, because they encourage the prof to curve. =)
Also, U of T is not a social life killer; just manage your time well.
On November 11 2010 12:18 Arterial wrote: Well, its kinda different here in Melbourne (Australia), a lot of the asians here are clubbers partiers whilst being high achievers.
That's true in Canada and I'm sure America as well. However there are also a lot of asians that are highly social in other ways like active members of interest clubs (board games, anime, starcraft) but apparently those don't count as being social because those activities aren't cool enough to meet the north american standard of socializing.
Being completely fluent in both english and cantonese, and attending one of the universities listed, I can ascertain that it's possible that the article itself is completely biased and even promotes some stereotypes. Yes I am one of those people who can count his white friends with fingers. Could I join a honger group if I wanted to? Probably. Do I want to join a honger group? No.
I am not surprised at the inherent racism that some of these american universities go through to maintain their precious WASP standard. Been to a few places in america where people are surprised to even see somebody with my skin colour, and it is something that is engrained so deeply into people's minds that they don't even conciously think about it. Just being different is already a reason for discrimination, regardless of who they are or what they do.
im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
On November 11 2010 12:18 ZoW wrote: It's pretty much a known fact all Asians go to class, go back, study, study, study some more. Its just the way asian parenting works, where you get drilled to have a good work ethic.
Don't say 'all Asians'. It's not a fact. I know just as many Asians who are smart as who are dumb. Don't pretend like we're one faceless entity who are programmed from birth to think, act, and talk the same way. I am constantly amazed that people can talk about Asians this way without getting called out for it.
About the article: If the other people value getting into university more than you, shouldn't they deserve to get in? Why should the university change its admissions rather than asking the other people why they don't change if getting in is so damned important to them?
University is more than just the marks, but in my opinion, learning should still be the priority, and the admissions process should be open and transparent and reflect the priorities of the university. If you want to have a certain racial distribution, then I'd like the university to come out and say the exact percentages that they're aiming for and anything else that they're considering. If they can't handle the press that they get from being completely open, then maybe they shouldn't do it.
also i think that half of this article isn't really applicable to koreans... all the different korean student organizations i've ever heard of, such as KASA/KSA/KISA, all party super hard.
the part about non-integration is still valid though.
On November 11 2010 12:30 Mykill wrote: i cant find it anymore from your source
LOL Macleans removed the article! All mention and links to it have been removed from their site. There are still tons of newspaper articles that talk about the article though, I'll link some of them.
I read the beginning of the article and have to agree with it to date. Asian students do work harder. Most white people in their senior year don't take it that seriously, then come back and complain they can't compete for spots when they have clearly not worked as hard for them. If you want a slot in a top university, wake up; you have to work hard for it.
On November 11 2010 11:55 MonsieurGrimm wrote: and so some Asian parents choose to try and force their values onto their children, which I am opposed to.
I thought the whole point of parenting was to try to ingrain some values onto your children.
While thats true to an extent, I'd rather think of it as ingraining values through being a role model, not putting horse blinders on your child so that they go into exactly what you want.
I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
On November 11 2010 11:55 MonsieurGrimm wrote: and so some Asian parents choose to try and force their values onto their children, which I am opposed to.
I thought the whole point of parenting was to try to ingrain some values onto your children.
While thats true to an extent, I'd rather think of it as ingraining values through being a role model, not putting horse blinders on your child so that they go into exactly what you want.
I don't know if that's how parents would think. Imo, kids are an investment(strictly speaking), and as a parent, you'd obviously want that investment to grow as much as possible. I dunno, if I had a kid, and he told me he wanted to go into a B.A. majoring in history of art, I wouldn't be very happy.
This is the problem with North America and complacency.
Try growing up in India instead; the likelihood of even being accepted into a University is less than 1/100th of what you currently have in North America.
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
The issue isn't a lack of hobbies or not socializing. It's that the way the asian kids socialize and the hobbies they have aren't valued as equal to the way white students socialize and their hobbies. Why does hockey or football make you more well rounded than anime and starcraft clubs? Why is clubbing and keggers more social than conversation at clubs or while playing board games or discussing school?
On November 11 2010 12:18 ZoW wrote: It's pretty much a known fact all Asians go to class, go back, study, study, study some more. Its just the way asian parenting works, where you get drilled to have a good work ethic.
Don't say 'all Asians'. It's not a fact. I know just as many Asians who are smart as who are dumb. Don't pretend like we're one faceless entity who are programmed from birth to think, act, and talk the same way. I am constantly amazed that people can talk about Asians this way without getting called out for it.
I'm asian too btw, and yeah i definitely could have worded that better. My bad if I offended you.
Its just the whole societal stigma I've grown up around i guess. it was always a competition between all my friends from elementary to junior high of who got better grades and did better in school. Our parents just raised us that way, where its like "OH WHY CANT YOU BE LIKE HIM? HE GOT A 100 AND YOU GOT A 97". Funny thing is I was the only one to get tired of it :\
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
Depends on what you mean by hobbies. Alot of the high achieving "asian" students are coming in with very good grades and tons of hobbies. Granted they might not all be sports, but the admissions committee would be discriminating against stuff like piano, yearbook club, executive at some student organization, etc.
Man I dont know who all these high achieving Asians are. I'm Vietnamese and I grew up with alot of retarded Asians with no drive for other than gambling, pho, and cigarettes.
On November 11 2010 12:33 LosingID8 wrote: also i think that half of this article isn't really applicable to koreans... all the different korean student organizations i've ever heard of, such as KASA/KSA/KISA, all party super hard.
the part about non-integration is still valid though.
But not all Koreans are part of Korean student organizations. The fact that a student is part of a student organization says that the he or she wants to interact with others. It's true that the article doesn't apply to ALL Koreans, but I'm sure that there exists Koreans who shut themselves in their rooms all day studying.
It always irked me how Canadians are so proud of the vaunted 'mosaic' rather than the 'melting pot'. So there's no explicitly 'Canadian' identity. So immigrants are encouraged to keep their old culture and be proud of it. Okay, but now you've got pieces which are different shapes, different sizes. What are you going to do? Canada is known for multiculturalism. This is it. This is multiculturalism. Take it or leave it.
While thats true to an extent, I'd rather think of it as ingraining values through being a role model, not putting horse blinders on your child so that they go into exactly what you want.
I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but every Asian parent (including mine) I know is a role model. They work as hard as they want you do. They'll work all the hours they need to send you to university. They'll make you study like they (wanted to, in a lot of cases) study. Their primary goal is to have their children 'succeed'. Do I like it? Of course not. It's stupid. It's pointless. It's a vicious circle, and it's hard to find where happiness and fulfillment fit in. But it's the way they live, and it's the way they want to live. If change is to happen, it will happen through persuasion. Go up to them. Talk to them. Teach them. There's no magic involved, no intrinsic magnetism pointing to UofT. It's just the way things are, the way things don't have to be.
I'm Taiwanese Mandarin (born in the United States), with ADHD and sleep Apnea, and I hate it when people generalize me as "smart" just because I am "Asian". I have such trouble in school that it's not funny. That being said, the university I go to is not half bad, but I do agree that people think that just because a person is of a race or physical trait, a person is more inclined to have this trait. I'm in two speech pathology classes, which I am the only guy in, lemme tell you it's a rather unique experience.
Anyways my teacher mentioned today that people do make stereotypes, like the saying "all men are pigs" or "all blonds are dumb" (most of my classmates are blond and smart, see how society has these negative sayings and connotations?) All my friends are non-Asian (2% Asian University), yet my friends don't drink when we hang out. We play nerdy games like Magic and watch Tv shows or Anime XD.
My parents, are the most supporting and loving "Asian" parents that I can ever want. They understand my difficulties, and their only requirement for me is that "I try my best". I know that there are many "Asian" parents that push their children, but it cannot be said the same for every "Asian".
On November 11 2010 12:28 flamewheel wrote: I'm Asian and damn proud of being so. No drinking no smoking no drugs no excessive partying. I like it like this.
That's ridiculous, to imply that no Asians drink, smoke, ect is complete garbage- just as equally as to say that all Caucasians drink, smoke, ect.
Maclean's tends to post a LOT of garbage articles every now and then, and I think this is one of them. Maybe McGill is way way different from these schools (which I highly doubt) but Asians are pretty similar to Caucasians in term of "extra curricular activities".
Argghh, I don't know how else to put it, but this article and most of the posts are sooo short sighted. A lot of these posts make me glad I came to McGill :p
EDIT:
Alright, I've come to accept that either:
1) McGill is radically different from UofT/Waterloo
2) Most people here have no idea how to compare the two populations. From what I've seen equal amounts of Asians and Caucasians are: involved in clubs, are closet nerds, party, are dumb, are smart, work hard, slack off, ect. Really, I mean remove the blinders people. Remarks like:
On November 11 2010 12:18 ZoW wrote: It's pretty much a known fact all Asians go to class, go back, study, study, study some more. Its just the way asian parenting works, where you get drilled to have a good work ethic.
The article is quite true, but hey, why would you care so much about what they say or think? Sure they have fun, get the "social experience", party, drink, etc. Its fine if that's what they want to do, everyone's got a choice how they want to live.
But then asians spend time on their grades, because its the smart thing to do. sure you miss out on being social for a few years, but 10 years later when your living off 6 figures a year and on a yacht ballin' with other rich people you'll thank yourself and laugh at all the idiots you knew in university who got shit faced everyday.
and "Asian parents actually teach values." are completely ridiculous. I think the fact that Asians are smarter/perform better is a dumb stereotype. A lot of Asians work hard and deserve the results, but some of the jumps you guys are making seem ridiculous.
Also, please don't take this as an attack on Asians- my opinion is that both groups are equal on pretty much all terms.
On November 11 2010 12:33 LosingID8 wrote: also i think that half of this article isn't really applicable to koreans... all the different korean student organizations i've ever heard of, such as KASA/KSA/KISA, all party super hard.
the part about non-integration is still valid though.
But not all Koreans are part of Korean student organizations. The fact that a student is part of a student organization says that the he or she wants to interact with others. It's true that the article doesn't apply to ALL Koreans, but I'm sure that there exists Koreans who shut themselves in their rooms all day studying.
of course they exist, but likewise there are caucasians who also shut themselves in their room studying all day long too. it's just my anecdotal evidence, but i have found that koreans in general (whether they were part of an org or not) tend to go out a decent amount. but that might just have been the result of our proximity to to koreatown.
The thing is that the in China, the unemployment rate is VERY high, relative to North American standards. They is a lot of fighting in China over jobs. My friend, an international student, basically said that I would not be able to survive in Hong Kong, as I would be taken advantage of. I am a nice guy, and work hard. However, the way he puts it, is that the most important thing in Hong Kong is success. The method in which success is achieved is not very important. For example, they will be willing to lie and basically downplay my work in a projected, and brag about their successes. A dog eat dog world. Maybe I am just naive, but I believe that does not occur, or maybe not occur as much in the North American workplace. Things in North America are more relaxed, and not as frantic.
There are some things that the articles do not mention, and have been somewhat mentioned by other Tlers. There are, in general, three type of Asians in university.
1) Asian Born in Canada 2) Rich International Students 3) Relatively Poor International Students
Typically, the rich international students will be the ones that are going to clubs. Please do understand this is a generalization, but it is however mostly true. They are the ones from Hong Kong who have rich parents and have been basically been sent to Canada as they are unable to easily secure spot in the university in Hong Kong.
The other two groups work fairly hard in school. However, most international students that are relatively poor will work very hard and will be able to pull out the straight A+s. The reason why is that they understand what it is like to be poor. And they want to move up. Furthermore, they understand that their parents have put a lot of money in them to have them move to North America, pay for their schooling and housing. They want to value their parent's trust. They do have a social life, but their value is in school success.
Students that are born in North America, are kinda of the average. This set of students will work hard, however, will and may put social values ahead of academic values. That being said, the parents instill a very high academic value on the children. I always joke that the most Asian kids are pushed to be engineers, doctors or lawyers. I guess business is now one of the 'wanted' jobs by the parents. Furthermore, there are a lot of childhood stories of hearing how life was back in China and seeing how bad it is. And how little they came to Canada with.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
I agree. Both the importance of uni's social aspect(not nec. partying) , and the fact that it isn't an "Asian thing". Also the OP's assessment of "hit and miss" I think summarizes my reaction to the article.
I feel like they took some real valid concerns (Asian and non-Asian ones) and molded it into a single narrative. Some of it is true, a lot is exaggerated, but it feels like it was all squeezed together to "tell a story", whether it was relevant or not.
It was annoying to read, but I'm glad it was published and featured prominently, as it will promote discussion. This is annoying narrative cropping up more and more these days.
Also, a lot of the comments just feel like thinly veiled "latent racism". Not the lynch and segregate kind, but more like the "not ready for a Black president" people polled. Maybe not classic racism, but more like xenophobia and paranoia of people that act/look different from oneself.
I don't encourage it, but if someone flat out just said, "They're different, it makes me uncomfortable, do not want to about surrounded by them," it would at least be honest. Let's not pretend like we give a shit about how "well-rounded" or are concerned for their social lives! It honestly just makes the issue harder to discuss if you throw layers of BS that can sidetrack people. Whenever I hear someone object to an Asian conversation, the objection is usually "I can't understand." (even if they're not being addressed) or "They could be saying bad things about me." Very rarely is the concern the missed opportunity to become well-rounded lol.
I want to stress that there are points in there that can be valid and interesting, just dont feel it was necessary to mash all under a polarizing "OMG TOO ASIAN" banner.
I think this thing all boils down to which group is being violated. Non-asian groups can argue that Asians are the ones that are stepping over their roles because they did not have the resources to reach the asian level in school. But Asians can argue, that they studied much harder than the other races and they deserve better, even if they have some resources others dont. As an asian tho, i personally feel that college admissions are unfair.
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
Depends on what you mean by hobbies. Alot of the high achieving "asian" students are coming in with very good grades and tons of hobbies. Granted they might not all be sports, but the admissions committee would be discriminating against stuff like piano, yearbook club, executive at some student organization, etc.
I see that you're Canadian, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpreted this snippet:
Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don’t quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts.
to mean Canadian universities do not consider anything but grades.
If they do consider extra-curriculars, I think it is okay to discriminate against over-represented activities. To consider a hyperbolic scenario, if 50% of the student body plays piano, would admitting a ton of new pianists add to the school?
On November 11 2010 11:55 MonsieurGrimm wrote: and so some Asian parents choose to try and force their values onto their children, which I am opposed to.
I thought the whole point of parenting was to try to ingrain some values onto your children.
While thats true to an extent, I'd rather think of it as ingraining values through being a role model, not putting horse blinders on your child so that they go into exactly what you want.
I don't know if that's how parents would think. Imo, kids are an investment(strictly speaking), and as a parent, you'd obviously want that investment to grow as much as possible. I dunno, if I had a kid, and he told me he wanted to go into a B.A. majoring in history of art, I wouldn't be very happy.
Yeah, I agree with that too. But really, if you're only thinking about the kid in just the investment sense, then you really shouldn't be a parent. The other factor that's in there is love for your child, wanting him/her to be happy in whatever they choose, even if that means being less "successful" in life. And I feel like, even though the investment side makes you unhappy about it, you deal with it because at the end of the day, if your son/daughter is happy then you've done your job.
Eik! This sounds like me in one year. Damn stereotypes!
But this has been public knowledge for a while now. I'm surprised it's taken this long for it to be published.
On November 11 2010 12:58 XinRan wrote: If they do consider extra-curriculars, I think it is okay to discriminate against over-represented activities. To consider a hyperbolic scenario, if 50% of the student body plays piano, would admitting a ton of new pianists add to the school?
But would it be morally correct to exclude those who would have made it in if they simply did not take piano, or mention piano, in their application?
Seriously, I don't see how this is a problem. There will always be a degree of racial segregation (in terms of socialising) at universities, just like in real life. People generally tend to hang out with others who are like them and share the same interests and values, and this isn't going to change.
I dunno about everyone else, but I would be the first in line to sign up for a university that had a reputation for being "too asian". It would certainly be a welcome break from the retarded "hurp durp let's get drunk every weekend and skate by with a C- average" mainstream culture of universities in NZ. I'm white but I can probably count the number of white friends I have on one hand. At uni me and my friends would often complain that university organised events were nothing but drinking and partying. Hell, the biggest student club at AU is the fucking "drinking club", I kid you not. By far the most fun events we attended were organised by the asian clubs or through groups of friends.
Will the percentage of Asians at universities continue to grow? Yes, because in general Asians have a better work ethic and will out-perform their white counterparts academically. Does this mean that the demographics and culture on campus will change? Of course it does. But is this a cause for concern? Hell no, I think it's a good thing if Asians raise the bar a little and create a desirable social alternative to the widely accepted university lifestyle of drinking, partying and not giving a fuck.
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
Depends on what you mean by hobbies. Alot of the high achieving "asian" students are coming in with very good grades and tons of hobbies. Granted they might not all be sports, but the admissions committee would be discriminating against stuff like piano, yearbook club, executive at some student organization, etc.
I see that you're Canadian, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpreted this snippet:
Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don’t quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts.
to mean Canadian universities do not consider anything but grades. If they do consider extra-curriculars, I think it is okay to discriminate against over-represented activities. To consider a hyperbolic scenario, if 50% of the student body plays piano, would admitting a ton of new pianists add to the school?
Extra-curriculars only matter for grad school and professional school.
Why would adding more hockey players benefit an academic institution over piano players? Favoring sports over other hobbies is just a sneaky way of affirmitive actioning more whites and blacks into university since asians aren't known for their athletic ability and have more cerebral hobbies.
The idea is that college is more than just about academics. Sure, they are important. But they arent everything. Im sure everyone has seen the kid in class who gets all A's, then gets up to talk and is a complete social retard. The basic idea is that by forcing yourself to go into unfamiliar situations- clubbing, parties with people you dont know, you build a set of social icebreaking techniques you can use for the rest of your life.
The idea isnt that playing games instead of mingling at a party isnt social. Its the fact you are refusing to leave your comfort zone and learning different sets of social skills.
Extreme bias and non-racial stereotyping ahead: I didn't read the whole article (was really long sorry), but as a white kid who grew up in the Toronto area, I knew that I never wanted to go to a Toronto school. Not only do you have to live at home the entire time you are at university instead of living in a dorm/your own place and doing new shit, meeting new people etc., Toronto universities tend to attract the type of kids who are perfectly fine with that. Not trying to differentiate by race at all here; you get lots of caucasians, east asians and south asians who go to Toronto schools. The nerd stereotype is the same, however. I ended up going to UW which I'm sure has the highest number of east asians per capita out of all Ontario schools, but it's different. A large fraction of the students here come from the Toronto area and probably had the same idea I did. Even if I thought UofT was a significantly better school than UW (which I didn't, UW is better), I still probably would have picked UW, Queen's or Western just because I'd hate to go to UofT and wallow in nerdiness with the rest of the UofT students. And being forced to live at home during my time as an 18-22 year old would be an absolute nightmare.
Also just read Chill's post, he must have forgotten that Laurier (whitest arts school in Ontario probably) is down the street. Waterloo is nowhere on the scale of Western or anything but it's still a damn good city for social life due to the fact that between 1/5 and 1/6 of the population is a university student.
I won't go into the validity of the points of the article or the posters. I see them as individual viewpoints that serve to provide information and stimulate interest so that a person can go "find out more".
To this end, I would like to help everyone "find out more". Let me start by stating the following observations:
-> Most of the "academically oriented" universities where I live, Sydney, have a disproportionate amount of Asian students. -> Most of said students don't hang out on campus -> Most of the said students associate with other asians and speak their respective mother languages (Mandarin, Cantonese, etc.), i.e. they don’t have very wide social networks -> Most of their conversations (and this is because I was a nerd who played starcraft and was allowed into an 'asian circle of friends') center around academic activities or some form of gaming.
Now, please, before you go ahead and say "you're generalising" I have this to say: YES I am. My sample allows me to put forward a generalisation based on observation. I KNOW THIS IS NOT TRUE IN EVERY CASE!!!!!! I know not all asians are like this, so I won't go on about that.
Having said all that (and this sets the premise for furher questions I want to ask) I would like to ask YOU (TL'ers) to ponder this simple question: Why do you go to university?
1-> Because you want to get a good job? 2-> Because you want to pursue further academia? 3-> Other?
Again, from conversations and generalizations (again they don't apply to everyone) most people go to university for point 1 above. If that is the case, then I would like to make you aware of certain consequences of the "asian universities" and the "asian way of socialising" in terms of employment (again generalisations drawn from experience that are not necessarily complete):
1-> Most asians coming out of universities have very poor communication skills. (I am a manager where I work and talk to other managers recruiting) Playing online games does not help you increase your vocabulary or set a very good example on the “way to socialise”. 2-> Most Asians are very good with well defined tasks but cannot -> make very many alternative suggestions -> work in an environment where ‘collaboration’ (i.e. talking to people and collecting consensus) lead to a solution. What I’m trying to say is they’re very much “give me a well defined task and leave me in the corner to work by myself” kind of workers. Before I say anything else, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! Every organisation needs people like this. They’re known as the “do’ers”. However, the do’ers aren’t necessarily the ones that “get paid the most”. People pay for ideas, decisions, ability to negotiate and ability to work in a ‘team environment’. If you are a good talker and an ideas man or make good decisions then you progress quickly up the corporate ladder (more $$$ if that’s your thing).
So, with all that said, I would like to use this thread to ask a few questions directed at the Asian community of TL.
What is your expectation of university? What is your expectation of your career? What obstacles do you face at work that are preventing progress? (career, $$$, etc.)
Again, I’m sampling here and I understand that the sample is skewed (towards gamers) but some information is better then absolutely none. I hope you’re not offended by my generalisations.
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
This is complete bullshit for one reason - incongruent cultures. If you live in a Western society you get all sorts of conflicting messages from an Asian family versus society at large. Asian culture tells you to study hard and get a well-paying job so you can support a family. Western culture tells you to pursue your individual dreams and damn everybody else.
In a Western country where Asian kids adopt Western values, immigrant Asian parents don't know how to handle their rebelliousness except by the way they were dealt with as unruly children - through means that Westerners would fear for getting child services called on them. In the end it only serves to reinforce the image of strict, uncaring, abusive Asian parents, and creates a tension between being filial and "being yourself."
The funny thing is that in an Asian country, parents treat their kids this way ALL the time - and guess what? They end up pretty well-adjusted, because there wasn't at least as much incongruency between parental values and societal values. They laugh about the times they were smacked around for being mischievous children WITH their parents.
So no, I don't think Asian parents are unloving cruel disciplinarians. It's just inherent of being an immigrant family that creates these problems.
I go to UW (one of the universities mentioned in the article), and yeah, being a white person makes me a minority in the math/cs faculty. Is that a problem? No way. If someone is better qualified, smarter and is willing to work harder to get in to a good university, it's their right to do so, regardless of what race they are. The article frames the problem as an admissions problem for the most part, which is completely off base.
If there's a problem, it's that on average, non-asians are not stepping up to the challenge of globalization. If people in other countries are working harder to become better learners, smarter students and more knowledeable engineers, computer scientists and mathematicians, then we need to either step up or accept that they're going to be more qualified for jobs than we are. Sure, I've heard people blame them for being mindless work-aholics, lacking in creativity, etc, but when you actually know people who've come from other countries and worked their way in to getting top marks in a hard program, they're just like every other top performer, except that there's more of them. Some universities put a primary focus on academics, and in my opinion, those universities shouldn't need to worry about whether or not the people they're admitting will go clubbing. If a university needs to rely on its social scene to be a draw, then that says something about the level of its academics
Lastly, it's not as bad as people like to think. Here in waterloo, asians do tend to dominate CS, actsci and to an extent engineering programs, but there are also tons of people of middle-eastern or indian origin who work just as hard, and in the very top levels (ie, top 40-60 of each year) it's actually pretty evenly distributed between races (though definitely not genders) So yeah, if white people are worried that their places are getting taken up by immigrants, they need to work harder or just get realistic about how smart they are.
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
Depends on what you mean by hobbies. Alot of the high achieving "asian" students are coming in with very good grades and tons of hobbies. Granted they might not all be sports, but the admissions committee would be discriminating against stuff like piano, yearbook club, executive at some student organization, etc.
I see that you're Canadian, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpreted this snippet:
Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don’t quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts.
to mean Canadian universities do not consider anything but grades.
If they do consider extra-curriculars, I think it is okay to discriminate against over-represented activities. To consider a hyperbolic scenario, if 50% of the student body plays piano, would admitting a ton of new pianists add to the school?
Ya I'm canadian. The point of putting something like piano on your transcript is not to show I am a very good piano player such that I can play for the school, its an attempt to show that you're well rounded and you do other things other than study.Honestly I don't think they give a shit whether you play the piano or violin or the flute. Honestly, a majority of people holding a executive position in a student club do not do it for personal enjoyment(at least not 100% complete enjoyment), they're there because it looks good on your resume. So ya, It would be wrong to not admit me based on the fact that I play piano, even when your school already contains a majority of piano players.
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
This is complete bullshit for one reason - incongruent cultures. If you live in a Western society you get all sorts of conflicting messages from an Asian family versus society at large. Asian culture tells you to study hard and get a well-paying job so you can support a family. Western culture tells you to pursue your individual dreams and damn everybody else.
In a Western country where Asian kids adopt Western values, immigrant Asian parents don't know how to handle their rebelliousness except by the way they were dealt with as unruly children - through means that Westerners would fear for getting child services called on them. In the end it only serves to reinforce the image of strict, uncaring, abusive Asian parents, and creates a tension between being filial and "being yourself."
The funny thing is that in an Asian country, parents treat their kids this way ALL the time - and guess what? They end up pretty well-adjusted, because there wasn't at least as much incongruency between parental values and societal values. They laugh about the times they were smacked around for being mischievous children WITH their parents.
So no, I don't think Asian parents are unloving cruel disciplinarians. It's just inherent of being an immigrant family that creates these problems.
ya child abuse is something to laugh about.
well adjusted? china has the highest crime rate of adults stabbing little pre schoolers, china is in a horrible state, there's a growing rate of child abduction and organ stealing, why? because abusive shitty hivemind mentality of "lets make more babies to live out an entire lifetime of poverty because i would be ruled as an outcast if i rebel"
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
The issue isn't a lack of hobbies or not socializing. It's that the way the asian kids socialize and the hobbies they have aren't valued as equal to the way white students socialize and their hobbies. Why does hockey or football make you more well rounded than anime and starcraft clubs? Why is clubbing and keggers more social than conversation at clubs or while playing board games or discussing school?
Yep, try putting "Starcraft clan co-leader - practice session leader (15hr per week)" and see how you do vs someone who (white or asian) knows the stereotypical, generally "white" hobbies and activities when you apply for basically anything.
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
This is complete bullshit for one reason - incongruent cultures. If you live in a Western society you get all sorts of conflicting messages from an Asian family versus society at large. Asian culture tells you to study hard and get a well-paying job so you can support a family. Western culture tells you to pursue your individual dreams and damn everybody else.
In a Western country where Asian kids adopt Western values, immigrant Asian parents don't know how to handle their rebelliousness except by the way they were dealt with as unruly children - through means that Westerners would fear for getting child services called on them. In the end it only serves to reinforce the image of strict, uncaring, abusive Asian parents, and creates a tension between being filial and "being yourself."
The funny thing is that in an Asian country, parents treat their kids this way ALL the time - and guess what? They end up pretty well-adjusted, because there wasn't at least as much incongruency between parental values and societal values. They laugh about the times they were smacked around for being mischievous children WITH their parents.
So no, I don't think Asian parents are unloving cruel disciplinarians. It's just inherent of being an immigrant family that creates these problems.
ya child abuse is something to laugh about
Strict asian parenting isn't always the case, it's also a stereotype.
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
This is complete bullshit for one reason - incongruent cultures. If you live in a Western society you get all sorts of conflicting messages from an Asian family versus society at large. Asian culture tells you to study hard and get a well-paying job so you can support a family. Western culture tells you to pursue your individual dreams and damn everybody else.
In a Western country where Asian kids adopt Western values, immigrant Asian parents don't know how to handle their rebelliousness except by the way they were dealt with as unruly children - through means that Westerners would fear for getting child services called on them. In the end it only serves to reinforce the image of strict, uncaring, abusive Asian parents, and creates a tension between being filial and "being yourself."
The funny thing is that in an Asian country, parents treat their kids this way ALL the time - and guess what? They end up pretty well-adjusted, because there wasn't at least as much incongruency between parental values and societal values. They laugh about the times they were smacked around for being mischievous children WITH their parents.
So no, I don't think Asian parents are unloving cruel disciplinarians. It's just inherent of being an immigrant family that creates these problems.
ya child abuse is something to laugh about
Strict asian parenting isn't always the case, it's also a stereotype.
This whole article is about overblown stereotypes.
In my opinion it's foolish to think that Asians have a limited "social life" compared to any other group, in the same way it's foolish to think that Asians are "smarter" than any other group.
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
The issue isn't a lack of hobbies or not socializing. It's that the way the asian kids socialize and the hobbies they have aren't valued as equal to the way white students socialize and their hobbies. Why does hockey or football make you more well rounded than anime and starcraft clubs? Why is clubbing and keggers more social than conversation at clubs or while playing board games or discussing school?
Yep, try putting "Starcraft clan co-leader - practice session leader (15hr per week)" and see how you do vs someone who (white or asian) knows the stereotypical, generally "white" hobbies and activities when you apply for basically anything.
Thats not how that would play out though. If I was president of a club that just played sc, I wouldn't call it SC club; I'd call it "brainwave" or something. I would host meetings where member would gather and discuss new advances in technology or enjoy a relaxing environment with individuals that share a similar interest. Something along those lines. Certainly wouldn't call it sc lan club.
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
This is complete bullshit for one reason - incongruent cultures. If you live in a Western society you get all sorts of conflicting messages from an Asian family versus society at large. Asian culture tells you to study hard and get a well-paying job so you can support a family. Western culture tells you to pursue your individual dreams and damn everybody else.
In a Western country where Asian kids adopt Western values, immigrant Asian parents don't know how to handle their rebelliousness except by the way they were dealt with as unruly children - through means that Westerners would fear for getting child services called on them. In the end it only serves to reinforce the image of strict, uncaring, abusive Asian parents, and creates a tension between being filial and "being yourself."
The funny thing is that in an Asian country, parents treat their kids this way ALL the time - and guess what? They end up pretty well-adjusted, because there wasn't at least as much incongruency between parental values and societal values. They laugh about the times they were smacked around for being mischievous children WITH their parents.
So no, I don't think Asian parents are unloving cruel disciplinarians. It's just inherent of being an immigrant family that creates these problems.
ya child abuse is something to laugh about.
well adjusted? china has the highest crime rate of adults stabbing little pre schoolers, china is in a horrible state, there's a growing rate of child abduction and organ stealing, why? because abusive shitty hivemind mentality of "lets make more babies to live out an entire lifetime of poverty because i would be ruled as an outcast if i rebel"
you're pretty uninformed dude, you should probably stop posting
On November 11 2010 12:58 Brutaxilos wrote: I think this thing all boils down to which group is being violated. Non-asian groups can argue that Asians are the ones that are stepping over their roles because they did not have the resources to reach the asian level in school. But Asians can argue, that they studied much harder than the other races and they deserve better, even if they have some resources others dont. As an asian tho, i personally feel that college admissions are unfair.
On November 11 2010 12:54 wunsun wrote: The thing is that the in China, the unemployment rate is VERY high, relative to North American standards. They is a lot of fighting in China over jobs. My friend, an international student, basically said that I would not be able to survive in Hong Kong, as I would be taken advantage of. I am a nice guy, and work hard. However, the way he puts it, is that the most important thing in Hong Kong is success. The method in which success is achieved is not very important. For example, they will be willing to lie and basically downplay my work in a projected, and brag about their successes. A dog eat dog world. Maybe I am just naive, but I believe that does not occur, or maybe not occur as much in the North American workplace. Things in North America are more relaxed, and not as frantic.
There are some things that the articles do not mention, and have been somewhat mentioned by other Tlers. There are, in general, three type of Asians in university.
1) Asian Born in Canada 2) Rich International Students 3) Relatively Poor International Students
Typically, the rich international students will be the ones that are going to clubs. Please do understand this is a generalization, but it is however mostly true. They are the ones from Hong Kong who have rich parents and have been basically been sent to Canada as they are unable to easily secure spot in the university in Hong Kong.
The other two groups work fairly hard in school. However, most international students that are relatively poor will work very hard and will be able to pull out the straight A+s. The reason why is that they understand what it is like to be poor. And they want to move up. Furthermore, they understand that their parents have put a lot of money in them to have them move to North America, pay for their schooling and housing. They want to value their parent's trust. They do have a social life, but their value is in school success.
Students that are born in North America, are kinda of the average. This set of students will work hard, however, will and may put social values ahead of academic values. That being said, the parents instill a very high academic value on the children. I always joke that the most Asian kids are pushed to be engineers, doctors or lawyers. I guess business is now one of the 'wanted' jobs by the parents. Furthermore, there are a lot of childhood stories of hearing how life was back in China and seeing how bad it is. And how little they came to Canada with.
I agree with some parts of your post, but most of it is way too generalized.
And there is no such thing as "Relatively Poor International Students"
International students have to pay triple of domestic student's tuition. If they're from China (Most of them are from China not Hong Kong), and they can afford plane tickets, 4-5 years of their child's rent/living expenses, and the tuition, they are anything but poor.
There are the CBCs, the fobs, and the super fobs, that's it. Income really has nothing to do with it. Some CBCs are rich, some are poor, some fobs are rich, some are poor. All super fobs (The international students) are rich.
As for partying/drinking, again, you can't just generalize them into groups. Some likes to party a lot, some rarely does it and some never.
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
This is complete bullshit for one reason - incongruent cultures. If you live in a Western society you get all sorts of conflicting messages from an Asian family versus society at large. Asian culture tells you to study hard and get a well-paying job so you can support a family. Western culture tells you to pursue your individual dreams and damn everybody else.
In a Western country where Asian kids adopt Western values, immigrant Asian parents don't know how to handle their rebelliousness except by the way they were dealt with as unruly children - through means that Westerners would fear for getting child services called on them. In the end it only serves to reinforce the image of strict, uncaring, abusive Asian parents, and creates a tension between being filial and "being yourself."
The funny thing is that in an Asian country, parents treat their kids this way ALL the time - and guess what? They end up pretty well-adjusted, because there wasn't at least as much incongruency between parental values and societal values. They laugh about the times they were smacked around for being mischievous children WITH their parents.
So no, I don't think Asian parents are unloving cruel disciplinarians. It's just inherent of being an immigrant family that creates these problems.
ya child abuse is something to laugh about
Strict asian parenting isn't always the case, it's also a stereotype.
This whole article is about overblown stereotypes.
In my opinion it's foolish to think that Asians have a limited "social life" compared to any other group, in the same way it's foolish to think that Asians are "smarter" than any other group.
Basically. The only reason it's an issue is because Asians do tend to work harder and value education more, hence the wildly disproportionate representation in unviersity campuses according to statistics, to the point that universities are quietly discriminating against Asians to keep their numbers down.
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
This is complete bullshit for one reason - incongruent cultures. If you live in a Western society you get all sorts of conflicting messages from an Asian family versus society at large. Asian culture tells you to study hard and get a well-paying job so you can support a family. Western culture tells you to pursue your individual dreams and damn everybody else.
In a Western country where Asian kids adopt Western values, immigrant Asian parents don't know how to handle their rebelliousness except by the way they were dealt with as unruly children - through means that Westerners would fear for getting child services called on them. In the end it only serves to reinforce the image of strict, uncaring, abusive Asian parents, and creates a tension between being filial and "being yourself."
The funny thing is that in an Asian country, parents treat their kids this way ALL the time - and guess what? They end up pretty well-adjusted, because there wasn't at least as much incongruency between parental values and societal values. They laugh about the times they were smacked around for being mischievous children WITH their parents.
So no, I don't think Asian parents are unloving cruel disciplinarians. It's just inherent of being an immigrant family that creates these problems.
ya child abuse is something to laugh about.
well adjusted? china has the highest crime rate of adults stabbing little pre schoolers, china is in a horrible state, there's a growing rate of child abduction and organ stealing, why? because abusive shitty hivemind mentality of "lets make more babies to live out an entire lifetime of poverty because i would be ruled as an outcast if i rebel"
you're pretty uninformed dude, you should probably stop posting
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
This is complete bullshit for one reason - incongruent cultures. If you live in a Western society you get all sorts of conflicting messages from an Asian family versus society at large. Asian culture tells you to study hard and get a well-paying job so you can support a family. Western culture tells you to pursue your individual dreams and damn everybody else.
In a Western country where Asian kids adopt Western values, immigrant Asian parents don't know how to handle their rebelliousness except by the way they were dealt with as unruly children - through means that Westerners would fear for getting child services called on them. In the end it only serves to reinforce the image of strict, uncaring, abusive Asian parents, and creates a tension between being filial and "being yourself."
The funny thing is that in an Asian country, parents treat their kids this way ALL the time - and guess what? They end up pretty well-adjusted, because there wasn't at least as much incongruency between parental values and societal values. They laugh about the times they were smacked around for being mischievous children WITH their parents.
So no, I don't think Asian parents are unloving cruel disciplinarians. It's just inherent of being an immigrant family that creates these problems.
ya child abuse is something to laugh about.
well adjusted? china has the highest crime rate of adults stabbing little pre schoolers, china is in a horrible state, there's a growing rate of child abduction and organ stealing, why? because abusive shitty hivemind mentality of "lets make more babies to live out an entire lifetime of poverty because i would be ruled as an outcast if i rebel"
you're pretty uninformed dude, you should probably stop posting
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
This is complete bullshit for one reason - incongruent cultures. If you live in a Western society you get all sorts of conflicting messages from an Asian family versus society at large. Asian culture tells you to study hard and get a well-paying job so you can support a family. Western culture tells you to pursue your individual dreams and damn everybody else.
In a Western country where Asian kids adopt Western values, immigrant Asian parents don't know how to handle their rebelliousness except by the way they were dealt with as unruly children - through means that Westerners would fear for getting child services called on them. In the end it only serves to reinforce the image of strict, uncaring, abusive Asian parents, and creates a tension between being filial and "being yourself."
The funny thing is that in an Asian country, parents treat their kids this way ALL the time - and guess what? They end up pretty well-adjusted, because there wasn't at least as much incongruency between parental values and societal values. They laugh about the times they were smacked around for being mischievous children WITH their parents.
So no, I don't think Asian parents are unloving cruel disciplinarians. It's just inherent of being an immigrant family that creates these problems.
ya child abuse is something to laugh about
Strict asian parenting isn't always the case, it's also a stereotype.
This whole article is about overblown stereotypes.
In my opinion it's foolish to think that Asians have a limited "social life" compared to any other group, in the same way it's foolish to think that Asians are "smarter" than any other group.
Basically. The only reason it's an issue is because Asians do tend to work harder and value education more, hence the wildly disproportionate representation in unviersity campuses, to the point that universities are quietly discriminating against Asians to keep their numbers down.
I think that this is true outside of University, however within University I don't think that's the case. Hence more Asian students (comparatively) get accepted, yet I would say that activity, both academic and otherwise, within University is pretty much the same across all groups.
Edit: When I say outside of University I mean high school, and even then I think it's overblown.
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
Depends on what you mean by hobbies. Alot of the high achieving "asian" students are coming in with very good grades and tons of hobbies. Granted they might not all be sports, but the admissions committee would be discriminating against stuff like piano, yearbook club, executive at some student organization, etc.
I see that you're Canadian, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpreted this snippet:
Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don’t quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts.
to mean Canadian universities do not consider anything but grades. If they do consider extra-curriculars, I think it is okay to discriminate against over-represented activities. To consider a hyperbolic scenario, if 50% of the student body plays piano, would admitting a ton of new pianists add to the school?
Extra-curriculars only matter for grad school and professional school.
Why would adding more hockey players benefit an academic institution over piano players? Favoring sports over other hobbies is just a sneaky way of affirmitive actioning more whites and blacks into university since asians aren't known for their athletic ability and have more cerebral hobbies.
Well if 50% of the student body plays hockey, adding more hockey players wouldn't benefit the institution. I'm not saying that some activities are in some way intrinsically superior to others. I just think there should be a diversity of activities so that students have more opportunities to participate in new activities and their respective social spaces, and college admission committees should admit students to promote diversity of activities.
You do bring up an interesting case of the favoritism shown to sports though. I think admission committees favor sports because they provide a shared value for the student body. When your school's hockey team faces off against another school's team, many people in your school is going to rally together and root for your school's team. A sports game is a pure spectacle where universities compete for superiority. If your school wins, it brings a sense of pride about the school.
I know not everyone cares about sports games, however, so my use of the second person implied a generality that I didn't intend. Not everyone feels a sense of community when watching sports games, but in American culture, which I am assuming is similar to Canadian culture, most people do feel that sense of community. Because most people feel that sense of community, admission committees make an effort to build strong sports teams. It all depends on the culture though. I'm sure the hypothetical Teamliquid University would make an effort to build strong Starcraft and Starcraft II teams.
Personally I feel neutral about admission committees favoring sports over other activities. I'm not the type to go crazy at home (American) football games, but school sports does give me something to talk about with my fellow students and the student-athletes I know are cool people. In the end, everything comes down to personal preference. If you don't like athletics and go wild at Starcraft clubs and piano concerts, then choose the school that favors those activities.
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
Depends on what you mean by hobbies. Alot of the high achieving "asian" students are coming in with very good grades and tons of hobbies. Granted they might not all be sports, but the admissions committee would be discriminating against stuff like piano, yearbook club, executive at some student organization, etc.
I see that you're Canadian, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpreted this snippet:
Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don’t quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts.
to mean Canadian universities do not consider anything but grades. If they do consider extra-curriculars, I think it is okay to discriminate against over-represented activities. To consider a hyperbolic scenario, if 50% of the student body plays piano, would admitting a ton of new pianists add to the school?
Extra-curriculars only matter for grad school and professional school.
Why would adding more hockey players benefit an academic institution over piano players? Favoring sports over other hobbies is just a sneaky way of affirmitive actioning more whites and blacks into university since asians aren't known for their athletic ability and have more cerebral hobbies.
Well if 50% of the student body plays hockey, adding more hockey players wouldn't benefit the institution. I'm not saying that some activities are in some way intrinsically superior to others. I just think there should be a diversity of activities so that students have more opportunities to participate in new activities and their respective social spaces, and college admission committees should admit students to promote diversity of activities.
You do bring up an interesting case of the favoritism shown to sports though. I think admission committees favor sports because they provide a shared value for the student body. When your school's hockey team faces off against another school's team, many people in your school is going to rally together and root for your school's team. A sports game is a pure spectacle where universities compete for superiority. If your school wins, it brings a sense of pride about the school.
I know not everyone cares about sports games, however, so my use of the second person implied a generality that I didn't intend. Not everyone feels a sense of community when watching sports games, but in American culture, which I am assuming is similar to Canadian culture, most people do feel that sense of community. Because most people feel that sense of community, admission committees make an effort to build strong sports teams. It all depends on the culture though. I'm sure the hypothetical Teamliquid University would make an effort to build strong Starcraft and Starcraft II teams.
Personally I feel neutral about admission committees favoring sports over other activities. I'm not the type to go crazy at home (American) football games, but school sports does give me something to talk about with my fellow students and the student-athletes I know are cool people. In the end, everything comes down to personal preference. If you don't like athletics and go wild at Starcraft clubs and piano concerts, then choose the school that favors those activities.
I'm actually a bit surprised that University of Waterloo doesn't favor Starcraft players over sports players given the student body. I'm surprised that UoT and UW don't have a big official Starcraft teams with a rivalry going on, since I bet they could get pretty huge crowds watching the games from both schools.
I shudder at the thought of universities limiting applicants based on their private lives. It sounds like everyone ELSE needs to work harder, or at the very least, decide what their priorities are.
On November 11 2010 13:34 alan25 wrote: you seem to know more, then prove it, just don't sit there saying "i know more you know less" prove me wrong, - stop being stereotypical asian
Since when was arrogance a stereotypical asian trait?
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
Damn, the white man's ways have taken root deep in you. I think your Asian daddy did not hit you hard enough!
On November 11 2010 13:34 alan25 wrote: you seem to know more, then prove it, just don't sit there saying "i know more you know less" prove me wrong, - stop being stereotypical asian
there isn't anything to prove wrong dude, you never really presented any facts to begin with.
and i'd like to know what your idea of a "stereotypical asian" is, and why i should stop being one.
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
Damn, the white man's ways have taken root deep in you. I think your Asian daddy did not hit you hard enough!
my great asian dad commited suicide when i was 5 ?^.^?
On November 11 2010 13:34 alan25 wrote: you seem to know more, then prove it, just don't sit there saying "i know more you know less" prove me wrong, - stop being stereotypical asian
stereotypical asian? looks like you are racist and ignorant which makes your posts above biased and therefore useless to the discussion that is happening here.
yeah sure child abuse happens in some immigrant homes, but are you seriously suggesting that stuff doesnt happen elsewhere?
EDIT: looool whoops missed a few posts above ok lemme rewrite this
EDIT2: ok so i misunderstood where you are coming from but there are problems being raised in an asian family and sure if you grew up in the wrong end that does not mean that EVERY family has this shit going on. for example if you grew up in the ghetto as a black child theres gangs and drugs does that mean all black families have this crap going on? same with the case of a white family where daddy beats his wife and kids, the man is scum but that does not mean you can say the whole race has that problem
On November 11 2010 12:59 FuRong wrote: Seriously, I don't see how this is a problem. There will always be a degree of racial segregation (in terms of socialising) at universities, just like in real life. People generally tend to hang out with others who are like them and share the same interests and values, and this isn't going to change.
I dunno about everyone else, but I would be the first in line to sign up for a university that had a reputation for being "too asian". It would certainly be a welcome break from the retarded "hurp durp let's get drunk every weekend and skate by with a C- average" mainstream culture of universities in NZ. I'm white but I can probably count the number of white friends I have on one hand. At uni me and my friends would often complain that university organised events were nothing but drinking and partying. Hell, the biggest student club at AU is the fucking "drinking club", I kid you not. By far the most fun events we attended were organised by the asian clubs or through groups of friends.
Will the percentage of Asians at universities continue to grow? Yes, because in general Asians have a better work ethic and will out-perform their white counterparts academically. Does this mean that the demographics and culture on campus will change? Of course it does. But is this a cause for concern? Hell no, I think it's a good thing if Asians raise the bar a little and create a desirable social alternative to the widely accepted university lifestyle of drinking, partying and not giving a fuck.
If you want people to do something other than drink, party and not give a fuck you have to make university mean something. Right now we have way too many people going to university because university is the new high school, you don't go there because you want or expect to learn something, you go there because it's a line item you're expected to have on your resume if you want to get a job. Why do you need it to get a job? Because everyone else going for the job went to university too, so you don't want to be the one who is thrown in the bin before even getting an interview.
Education isn't about learning, it's an arms race where everyone is trying to one up each other. Seems to me the people have realised this and know that getting that degree at the end is the only point and are at least determined to have a good time doing so (drinking and partying is what a lot of people enjoy, like it or not).
On November 11 2010 12:59 FuRong wrote: Seriously, I don't see how this is a problem. There will always be a degree of racial segregation (in terms of socialising) at universities, just like in real life. People generally tend to hang out with others who are like them and share the same interests and values, and this isn't going to change.
I dunno about everyone else, but I would be the first in line to sign up for a university that had a reputation for being "too asian". It would certainly be a welcome break from the retarded "hurp durp let's get drunk every weekend and skate by with a C- average" mainstream culture of universities in NZ. I'm white but I can probably count the number of white friends I have on one hand. At uni me and my friends would often complain that university organised events were nothing but drinking and partying. Hell, the biggest student club at AU is the fucking "drinking club", I kid you not. By far the most fun events we attended were organised by the asian clubs or through groups of friends.
Will the percentage of Asians at universities continue to grow? Yes, because in general Asians have a better work ethic and will out-perform their white counterparts academically. Does this mean that the demographics and culture on campus will change? Of course it does. But is this a cause for concern? Hell no, I think it's a good thing if Asians raise the bar a little and create a desirable social alternative to the widely accepted university lifestyle of drinking, partying and not giving a fuck.
If you want people to do something other than drink, party and not give a fuck you have to make university mean something. Right now we have way too many people going to university because university is the new high school, you don't go there because you want or expect to learn something, you go there because it's a line item you're expected to have on your resume if you want to get a job. Why do you need it to get a job? Because everyone else going for the job went to university too, so you don't want to be the one who is thrown in the bin before even getting an interview.
Education isn't about learning, it's an arms race where everyone is trying to one up each other. Seems to me the people have realised this and know that getting that degree at the end is the only point and are at least determined to have a good time doing so (drinking and partying is what a lot of people enjoy, like it or not).
That's why grad school and professional school is the new higher education, while undergrads have lost a lot of value. However, getting into those requires people who actually care enough to get good marks in school.
i really think it's a broad stereotype that the author uses. not all asians are study everyday all day, i'm asian canadian and tbh i act just like a white guy. there are 2 kinds of asians, the kind that has been in the us/canada for a while, speaks perfect english, and the other kind whose parents beat them/etc to make sure they get good grades.
not sure about how i feel about the article, a little stereotypical but somewhat right. i haven't had the problem of choosing universities so i don't really know at this point
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
The issue isn't a lack of hobbies or not socializing. It's that the way the asian kids socialize and the hobbies they have aren't valued as equal to the way white students socialize and their hobbies. Why does hockey or football make you more well rounded than anime and starcraft clubs? Why is clubbing and keggers more social than conversation at clubs or while playing board games or discussing school?
Yep, try putting "Starcraft clan co-leader - practice session leader (15hr per week)" and see how you do vs someone who (white or asian) knows the stereotypical, generally "white" hobbies and activities when you apply for basically anything.
Thats not how that would play out though. If I was president of a club that just played sc, I wouldn't call it SC club; I'd call it "brainwave" or something. I would host meetings where member would gather and discuss new advances in technology or enjoy a relaxing environment with individuals that share a similar interest. Something along those lines. Certainly wouldn't call it sc lan club.
There are also "Asians" who are neither beat by their parents or have to act "White". That would be me. Thank you. @ the guy below me Yes, introducing variety without playing the race or ethnicity card would be great, it is/and will, take a while but I do hope they start doing it more widespread now. Yea, the drinking culture is indeed too widespread in America. They have all the rights to poison their body, but it's just not healthy, and stupid stuff happens a lot because of drinking.
I think it is a good article to raise discussion about university admissions and what administrators want to shape the campus culture into.
I think drinking and partying and sports have become way too prominant a part of the university experience. Making asian kids do more of those things so white kids can keep doing too much of those things doesn't seem like a good idea.
On November 11 2010 13:50 Zzoram wrote: Asians aside, I think it is a good article to raise discussion about university admissions and what administrators want to shape the campus culture into.
I think it's a bit twisted that administrators want to "shape" campus culture. I can understand stopping the use of drugs and cultivating a culture of scholarship and discourse, but I think all this emphasis on athletics, school spirit, and greek society is kind of bullshit. It's basically saying, we condone casual sex and inebriation and want to make that a strong part of our university.
Oh well, mainstream American culture at its finest...
-I know the article is about Canada, but this happens in America too. And the college culture here is pretty god awful in terms of socialization. It's almost exclusively drinking and frat/sorority parties. Or it's little wannabe parties that want to be like the frat/sors. Or it's really geeked out. Or you go party with the real animals, aka the dropouts who all work as waiters/waitresses/bartenders/cocktail/club dancers. They are the ones that really party, aka threesomes snorting coke off each other's asses. Yeah, this is why I stay home and ladder on SC2.
On November 11 2010 13:47 shawster wrote: i really think it's a broad stereotype that the author uses. not all asians are study everyday all day, i'm asian canadian and tbh i act just like a white guy. there are 2 kinds of asians, the kind that has been in the us/canada for a while, speaks perfect english, and the other kind whose parents beat them/etc to make sure they get good grades.
not sure about how i feel about the article, a little stereotypical but somewhat right. i haven't had the problem of choosing universities so i don't really know at this point
It's kinda amusing that you open with a comment on stereotypes then follow up with "I act just like a white guy"
On November 11 2010 13:50 Zzoram wrote: Asians aside, I think it is a good article to raise discussion about university admissions and what administrators want to shape the campus culture into.
I think it's a bit twisted that administrators want to "shape" campus culture. I can understand stopping the use of drugs and cultivating a culture of scholarship and discourse, but I think all this emphasis on athletics, school spirit, and greek society is kind of bullshit. It's basically saying, we condone casual sex and inebriation and want to make that a strong part of our university.
Oh well, mainstream American culture at its finest...
Yes, it's a huge cultural problem when students are picking universities for the party scene instead of academic quality like the girl and her brother in the beginning of the article. The brother even admitted he wanted to coast through university and party, and asians are supposed to be more like that?
k i'll explain myself instead of coming off as a prick. yeah, there were several instances of stabbings of kids in china. but you present it as if that has anything to do with discipline as it relates to asian parents and children motivated by the 'rod.'
the post to which you'd responded, which describes an incongruency between certain eastern and western cultures has very little to do with what you're describing when you say "china is in a horrible state, there's a growing rate of child abduction and organ stealing." then you say more stuff about china's hivemind (or something).
the fact is most of what you say has nothing to do with the quote to which you responded.
I want news sites and papers to report on this article and how Maclean's pulled it in less than a day. Why did they pull it? I want to hear discussion about the contents of the article from other news sources.
k i'll explain myself instead of coming off as a prick. there were several instances of stabbings of kids in china. but you say "highest crime rates of adults stabbing preschoolers" as if that has anything to do with discipline as it relates to asian parents and children motivated by the 'rod.'
the post to which you'd responded, which describes an incongruency between certain eastern and western cultures has very little to do with what you're describing when you say "china is in a horrible state, there's a growing rate of child abduction and organ stealing." then you say more stuff about china's hivemind (or something).
the fact is most of what you say has nothing to do with the quote to which you responded.
The reason you hear about stabbings in China is because people don't have guns. In the US it would be shootings
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways.
I'm sure they do to; That wasn't the point of my post.
I'm Korean. I grew up in the states. I went to a pretty decent school in the midwest. I tended to socialize more with white friends tho.. did a lot of drinking and clubbing.. and mild drugs in my freshman and sophomore years. Mostly because I thought of myself as more white than Korean, and because I had this misconception (even though I'm Korean) that all asian students study instead of partying. (My parents.. even tho they were 100% old school Korean.. were actually really laid back about studying which is probably why I ended up in that situation)
What I found was that I had somehow segregated myself from the Korean community at large and was labelled as a "banana".. I went joined the Korean army .. came back and tried my best to enjoy the best of both worlds... and I found that it wasn't too hard. I still went to clubs and bars.. but I also enjoyed going to 노래방 with my Korean friends and drinking overpriced soju as well. I actually introduced some of my more outgoing Korean friends to my white american friends and we had a great time.. so ......um
Err I guess what I want to say is.. I don't care if you're white, asian or whatever. People of different ethnicities are going to tend to stick together.. that's a fact. But if you want integration you have to apply yourself.. sitting back and hoping others do it for you is never going to work.
I think this article both hits and misses. It's true that Asian students TEND to be higher achievers, that could be both the result of selective immigration picking educated parents and cultural values as stated in the article. I just think the stereotype that Asian students "aren't social" is really code for "don't do what we do". As they pointed out, Asian students TEND to dislike the drinking clubbing scene and favour playing table top games and likely video games at social events. How is this being anti-social? Since when is drinking and clubbing a requirement to be considered social, and since when was drinking and clubbing an essential part of the university culture that's being "lost" because of "too many Asians"?
A few years ago I taught at a school in China. Just like teachers everywhere I had a few amazing students, many great/okay students and a handful of awful ones. One day I was asked to proctor a grade 11 mathematics exam of about 40 students. With only a few minutes into the test I counted five awful students with their head on the desk sleeping.
On November 11 2010 13:50 Zzoram wrote: Asians aside, I think it is a good article to raise discussion about university admissions and what administrators want to shape the campus culture into.
I think it's a bit twisted that administrators want to "shape" campus culture. I can understand stopping the use of drugs and cultivating a culture of scholarship and discourse, but I think all this emphasis on athletics, school spirit, and greek society is kind of bullshit. It's basically saying, we condone casual sex and inebriation and want to make that a strong part of our university.
Oh well, mainstream American culture at its finest...
I don't understand how the "emphasis on athletics, school spirit, and greek society" is "bascially saying, we condone casual sex and inebriation and want to make that a strong part of our university." And in what way is the administrators' desire to shape campus culture twisted? Isn't campus culture a significant enough part of an institution to pay attention to?
Damn, this article stereotypes so hard. Just because I wasn't born with intense Asian parents doesn't mean I party and drink/smoke or drink/smoke/party in place of hard studying. On a side note, I don't really get what it means to act white, isn't being white just the absence of culture, its not like theres a white heritage club of counsel of white engineers or smt; we're just white, we don't wrap are selves in some kind of nationalistic identity
On November 11 2010 12:37 XinRan wrote: I think Canadian colleges shouldn't establish grades as the primary criterion for admission. If they take more of a holistic approach and consider all aspects of an applicant's character, then they can achieve a student body that is both social and high-achieving. I say think twice about admitting a student with good grades but lacking hobbies, regardless of race.
Depends on what you mean by hobbies. Alot of the high achieving "asian" students are coming in with very good grades and tons of hobbies. Granted they might not all be sports, but the admissions committee would be discriminating against stuff like piano, yearbook club, executive at some student organization, etc.
I see that you're Canadian, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpreted this snippet:
Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don’t quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts.
to mean Canadian universities do not consider anything but grades. If they do consider extra-curriculars, I think it is okay to discriminate against over-represented activities. To consider a hyperbolic scenario, if 50% of the student body plays piano, would admitting a ton of new pianists add to the school?
Extra-curriculars only matter for grad school and professional school.
Why would adding more hockey players benefit an academic institution over piano players? Favoring sports over other hobbies is just a sneaky way of affirmitive actioning more whites and blacks into university since asians aren't known for their athletic ability and have more cerebral hobbies.
Well if 50% of the student body plays hockey, adding more hockey players wouldn't benefit the institution. I'm not saying that some activities are in some way intrinsically superior to others. I just think there should be a diversity of activities so that students have more opportunities to participate in new activities and their respective social spaces, and college admission committees should admit students to promote diversity of activities.
You do bring up an interesting case of the favoritism shown to sports though. I think admission committees favor sports because they provide a shared value for the student body. When your school's hockey team faces off against another school's team, many people in your school is going to rally together and root for your school's team. A sports game is a pure spectacle where universities compete for superiority. If your school wins, it brings a sense of pride about the school.
I know not everyone cares about sports games, however, so my use of the second person implied a generality that I didn't intend. Not everyone feels a sense of community when watching sports games, but in American culture, which I am assuming is similar to Canadian culture, most people do feel that sense of community. Because most people feel that sense of community, admission committees make an effort to build strong sports teams. It all depends on the culture though. I'm sure the hypothetical Teamliquid University would make an effort to build strong Starcraft and Starcraft II teams.
Personally I feel neutral about admission committees favoring sports over other activities. I'm not the type to go crazy at home (American) football games, but school sports does give me something to talk about with my fellow students and the student-athletes I know are cool people. In the end, everything comes down to personal preference. If you don't like athletics and go wild at Starcraft clubs and piano concerts, then choose the school that favors those activities.
I found this article kinda interesting, but nothing unexpected. I just thought I would point out quickly why (I believe) sport is favoured over, for example, piano:
Let me start by quickly pointing out a friend of mine applied to study Medicine in Sydney but was rejected because of her interview - I'm unsure how acceptance is decided outside of Sydney, but here we have 3 things you need. 1) Good marks. 2) A good score on the "GAMSAT" or "UMAT" test - tests designed to show general aptitude and a basic understanding of biology/chemistry/physics. and 3) A good interview.
Now in her interview my friend did not convince the interviewer she had good "people skills" which is deemed very important in the line of work she wanted to pursue. The interviewer told her - paraphrased slightly since this is a second re-telling (ie she told me, I'm telling you) - that she couldn't expect to help her patients or their families, and she would have no way of sympathising with them when delivering news about serious conditions/illness. The interviewer placed this value so highly that she was rejected because of this. Do you know what he recommended she should do to improve this skill? Play team sports.
Now I think this outlines a lot of the reason sport is preferred over piano. I am not going to say the interviewer was right or wrong, nor whether I think that sport would improve my friends interview. I am just trying to suggest that this is what some people, in admission positions, see in regards to the sport vs piano debate. I played a lot of team sports as I grew up (at least 2 per season), and also played musical instuments - piano and flute. I did find it true that the music was a lot more individual than sport, as you may expect. And sport probably did help me socially a lot more than my music did. That said, I can't say how social I would be if I had just done music because... Well, I didn't do that
Anyway, slightly longer post than I was planning but those are the reasons from my experience people prefer sport vs music. Hope that might provide interesting discussion if nothing else
This is a very interesting article. I enjoyed reading it.
I must agree with what the article says. It is a problem that different ethnicities don't mingle together well at all. I am a Korean Canadian in UofT engineering and I see chinese with chinese, koreans with koreans, browns with browns, whites with whites and etc.
As a former absolute banana (white washed), I turned a total fob after attending univ. But you know, i think the reasons are becuz you get more aid and help from your type of people and club, they make you feel more home, and of course, generally share similar interests. Also it is more appealing, as I would never hang out with brown people, not to be racist, but they just don't go along with what I am.
I don't know what kind of 'strategy' will mingle everyone. Every ethnic group has different interests. Different languages and cultures. Koreans drink a LOT, just different style compared to whites. We don't go keggers, or house parties, but in a big group at a bar, or smaller groups at a bar. We drink different stuff, and drinking culture is different too. We prolly won't enjoy beer pong and whatnot, but more korean drinknig games. And mingling whites or other race into this, they will definitely not have fun.. I've drank with 2nd gen koreans before and they would mingle better with whites and whatnot, but they were too white as well. I personally don't see how this can work out, people are just different
On November 11 2010 13:59 n.DieJokes wrote: Damn, this article stereotypes so hard. Just because I wasn't born with intense Asian parents doesn't mean I party and drink/smoke or drink/smoke/party in place of hard studying. On a side note, I don't really get what it means to act white, isn't being white just the absence of culture, its not like theres a white heritage club of counsel of white engineers or smt; we're just white, we don't wrap are selves in some kind of nationalistic identity
Get outside of a white country sometime and you'll notice how white you really are. What you take for granted, many people in the world would consider bizarre and exotic.
As an American-born Chinese I run into some similar cultural issues, and I was even born in a Chinese household. There's definitely a ton of unique aspects to being white. It's not an absence of culture -_-. The concept of good, evil, Christianity, feminism, racism, the social contract, freedom, inalienable rights etc these are all very Western notions.
I think this article both hits and misses. It's true that Asian students TEND to be higher achievers, that could be both the result of selective immigration picking educated parents and cultural values as stated in the article. I just think the stereotype that Asian students "aren't social" is really code for "don't do what we do". As they pointed out, Asian students TEND to dislike the drinking clubbing scene and favour playing table top games and likely video games at social events. How is this being anti-social? Since when is drinking and clubbing a requirement to be considered social, and since when was drinking and clubbing an essential part of the university culture that's being "lost" because of "too many Asians"?
A few years ago I taught at a school in China. Just like teachers everywhere I had a few amazing students, many great/okay students and a handful of awful ones. One day I was asked to proctor a grade 11 mathematics exam of about 40 students. With only a few minutes into the test I counted five awful students with their head on the desk sleeping.
Yes, in China. The asian students in North America are statistically better students on average, but that's because immigration usually selects for better quality people. We prefer not to let in the dregs of other countries.
Damn, so many replies. I don't want to spend 2 hours reading through all this shit. Instead, I'll just post my 2 cents.
Sure, you will sacrifice good academic grades and education if you go out and party, instead of sitting in your room or the library buried inside your books and notes.
But, don't think for one single fucking second that working so hard to get good grades does not come with a sacrifice of its own. You could die tomorrow. You might say, "But college only lasts for a few years, compared to working in a career." Sure, but just how important is that college degree to your career choice? There are many self-made millionaires who never attended a single day of college in their life. Flukes? I somehow doubt it. Attitude wins out over any simple diploma (It's just a piece of paper with your college's stamp of approval over your name.)
There's a huge irony in the idea of having higher education makes life easier down the road. The irony is that life becomes much harder in the present. It's a trade off.
When you spend your whole life working hard, only to end up on a death bed eventually, you're going to ask yourself what all that hard work was for.
Suffice it to say, what do you value? Going out and having a good meaningful time? Or sitting in your room worrying and stressing about grades? The thought of spending hours and hours of doing homework doesn't seem natural to me. Spending so much time converting information from a textbook/website into handwritten text is fucking boring as shit.
People learn by DOING, not by writing about it all day long.
From my point of view, I see white vs asian as minimalism vs elitism. A typical white student will realize that getting a 4.0 GPA gets you the same degree as a 2.5 GPA, and after your first job, your GPA won't even matter anymore. They spend just the amount of time working to get the 2.5 GPA and spend the rest of their time doing things they enjoy. A typical asian will do well just for the sake of doing well. In the asian culture, achieving high standards means a lot, even if nothing comes out of it. That's why a lot of asian parents make their kids practice piano 1-2 hours a day and tell them never to be a musician. It's just the idea of being better for the sake of being better. I suppose high achievements are what fulfills asians, equivalent to partying and drinking for white people.
On November 11 2010 14:01 midgettoes wrote: Now in her interview my friend did not convince the interviewer she had good "people skills" which is deemed very important in the line of work she wanted to pursue. The interviewer told her - paraphrased slightly since this is a second re-telling (ie she told me, I'm telling you) - that she couldn't expect to help her patients or their families, and she would have no way of sympathising with them when delivering news about serious conditions/illness. The interviewer placed this value so highly that she was rejected because of this. Do you know what he recommended she should do to improve this skill? Play team sports.
You Aussies are pretty serious about your team sports. I think this is just cultural bias.
And people make snap judgments about other people on anything!
Wow long article, couldn't finish it all. But yeah interesting. I've lived in toronto and I remember how many asians there were in Toronto, with specific communities (cantonese chinese, japanese, etc.) But I haven't heard of the "only asians go to University of Toronto". Is that an overstatement?
That's why a lot of asian parents make their kids practice piano 1-2 hours a day and tell them never to be a musician. It's just the idea of being better for the sake of being better. I suppose high achievements are what fulfills asians, equivalent to partying and drinking for white people.
Wow this is so true. And sad. I come from an asian family and I totally relate to this. They will support me for playing piano, but then if I were to bring up being a musician, they would literally blow up and go crazy, saying extreme things like "you're going to be poor and work at mcdonalds and you won't be happy". Which is extremely offensive. Who cares if I work at mcdonalds if I enjoy my life? Money is NOT the answer to happiness.
And I would really like to add. If you have indeed been "forced" or pressured into studying music a lot, seriously consider taking it as your career. I myself have chosen to do something I love even if I don't make $50k+ yearly. I regret not having practiced piano more than I could have. If I have then I would seriously be pro by now (barely practice yet almost the same level as what would be "good" at my age). Do what you love in life! ( ok may be starcraft is too extreme )
And in high school it is also quite a nuisance. They don't believe in you having control of your life. They believe they are absolutely correct, that studying 24/7 is the only and best way to go, and that I will "regret" if I don't. Psh, I'll show them... oh wait I can't, I have no control -.- They let you watch TV and use the internet, but no games. How does that make sense? And even then they contradict themselves... my dad sent me a HATE email (i guess it's similar to someone flaming someone) accusing me of being "distracted by games and other activities" and for "joining too many extricurriculars". Ok first of all I can't help being distracted by games, even though I can't play. It's not like a choice... it's similar to being tempted to rape someone. You can't really not be tempted, although you'll most likely choose not to. And it's funny that I join lots of extricurriculars for resume but they discourage it, thinking I'm just joining them to have fun.
Also their reasoning for no games but yes to internet is that games make you addictive and not focus on school. Well, you could say the same, they are more fun and therefore you will have more to look forward too if you have good discipline and it also saves time as it takes less time to be satisfied by playing, for example starcraft, than surfing the internet all day (like now xD).
Sort of rant-ish but wanted to share with how ridiculous asian life can be. The parents' conservatism and closed-minds, that is.
On November 11 2010 14:07 Chairman Ray wrote: From my point of view, I see white vs asian as minimalism vs elitism. A typical white student will realize that getting a 4.0 GPA gets you the same degree as a 2.5 GPA, and after your first job, your GPA won't even matter anymore. They spend just the amount of time working to get the 2.5 GPA and spend the rest of their time doing things they enjoy. A typical asian will do well just for the sake of doing well. In the asian culture, achieving high standards means a lot, even if nothing comes out of it. That's why a lot of asian parents make their kids practice piano 1-2 hours a day and tell them never to be a musician. It's just the idea of being better for the sake of being better. I suppose high achievements are what fulfills asians, equivalent to partying and drinking for white people.
While somewhat true on the GPA thing, GPA definitely matters if you want to do grad school or professional school. Also, many co-op programs when you're in a placement interview they look at your transcript.
On November 11 2010 14:09 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Wow long article, couldn't finish it all. But yeah interesting. I've lived in toronto and I remember how many asians there were in Toronto, with specific communities (cantonese chinese, japanese, etc.) But I haven't heard of the "only asians go to University of Toronto". Is that an overstatement?
Yes. Toronto has a lot more asians than other schools, but it's still got a huge white population.
On November 11 2010 14:07 Chairman Ray wrote: From my point of view, I see white vs asian as minimalism vs elitism. A typical white student will realize that getting a 4.0 GPA gets you the same degree as a 2.5 GPA, and after your first job, your GPA won't even matter anymore. They spend just the amount of time working to get the 2.5 GPA and spend the rest of their time doing things they enjoy. A typical asian will do well just for the sake of doing well. In the asian culture, achieving high standards means a lot, even if nothing comes out of it. That's why a lot of asian parents make their kids practice piano 1-2 hours a day and tell them never to be a musician. It's just the idea of being better for the sake of being better. I suppose high achievements are what fulfills asians, equivalent to partying and drinking for white people.
While somewhat true on the GPA thing, GPA definitely matters if you want to do grad school or professional school. Also, many co-op programs when you're in a placement interview they look at your transcript.
I think it's sad that people go to school just for the piece of paper. Very few people seem to genuinely want to learn anymore . Or at least, learn academic subjects. When I was in college, I didn't study that much, but I did pay attention in class and understood the material, which led to easy A's. Maybe it's because I actually gave a shit? I spent most of my time reading and learning other subjects on my own outside of class as well... Guess I'm an odd monkey though. Seems like most people are just obsessed with making money or sleeping with people .
In fact, I think that's the big difference between Asian and white culture. It's not minimalism vs elitism. It's money vs sex.
On November 11 2010 13:59 n.DieJokes wrote: Damn, this article stereotypes so hard. Just because I wasn't born with intense Asian parents doesn't mean I party and drink/smoke or drink/smoke/party in place of hard studying. On a side note, I don't really get what it means to act white, isn't being white just the absence of culture, its not like theres a white heritage club of counsel of white engineers or smt; we're just white, we don't wrap are selves in some kind of nationalistic identity
Get outside of a white country sometime and you'll notice how white you really are. What you take for granted, many people in the world would consider bizarre and exotic.
As an American-born Chinese I run into some similar cultural issues, and I was even born in a Chinese household. There's definitely a ton of unique aspects to being white. It's not an absence of culture -_-. The concept of good, evil, Christianity, feminism, racism, the social contract, freedom, inalienable rights etc these are all very Western notions.
Interesting... pretty insular of me but I never thought about it that way
On November 11 2010 13:59 n.DieJokes wrote: Damn, this article stereotypes so hard. Just because I wasn't born with intense Asian parents doesn't mean I party and drink/smoke or drink/smoke/party in place of hard studying. On a side note, I don't really get what it means to act white, isn't being white just the absence of culture, its not like theres a white heritage club of counsel of white engineers or smt; we're just white, we don't wrap are selves in some kind of nationalistic identity
White people who go to majority Asian countries behave surprisingly like Asian people who go to majority white countries. You know, speak their own language, eat their own food, hand out with their little clique of people, listen to their own music, have their own hobbies, follow their own sports.
There's no "absense of culture" in being white, it's just that if you're white and live in America then your culture is the culture being blasted right back at you in the media every day. You're just so used to white being treated as the default that everything else is a variation on you can't even see it.
On November 11 2010 12:59 FuRong wrote: Seriously, I don't see how this is a problem. There will always be a degree of racial segregation (in terms of socialising) at universities, just like in real life. People generally tend to hang out with others who are like them and share the same interests and values, and this isn't going to change.
I dunno about everyone else, but I would be the first in line to sign up for a university that had a reputation for being "too asian". It would certainly be a welcome break from the retarded "hurp durp let's get drunk every weekend and skate by with a C- average" mainstream culture of universities in NZ. I'm white but I can probably count the number of white friends I have on one hand. At uni me and my friends would often complain that university organised events were nothing but drinking and partying. Hell, the biggest student club at AU is the fucking "drinking club", I kid you not. By far the most fun events we attended were organised by the asian clubs or through groups of friends.
Will the percentage of Asians at universities continue to grow? Yes, because in general Asians have a better work ethic and will out-perform their white counterparts academically. Does this mean that the demographics and culture on campus will change? Of course it does. But is this a cause for concern? Hell no, I think it's a good thing if Asians raise the bar a little and create a desirable social alternative to the widely accepted university lifestyle of drinking, partying and not giving a fuck.
If you want people to do something other than drink, party and not give a fuck you have to make university mean something. Right now we have way too many people going to university because university is the new high school, you don't go there because you want or expect to learn something, you go there because it's a line item you're expected to have on your resume if you want to get a job. Why do you need it to get a job? Because everyone else going for the job went to university too, so you don't want to be the one who is thrown in the bin before even getting an interview.
Education isn't about learning, it's an arms race where everyone is trying to one up each other. Seems to me the people have realised this and know that getting that degree at the end is the only point and are at least determined to have a good time doing so (drinking and partying is what a lot of people enjoy, like it or not).
I completely agree with you, but entrance standards and the value of a university education is probably material for another new thread entirely. I don't know that much about entrance standards in Australia, but university entrance in NZ is a joke.
To clarify, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with drinking and partying. If you wanna do that then that's great, more power to you, no-one is stopping you. But at the same time, if you're NOT into that scene then that's cool too. The article in the OP seems to be lamenting the fact that Asians don't contribute anything to university culture because they don't drink and party as much. My point is that they DO socialise and contribute, but just in different ways, and I like the fact that it provides an alternative social scene for non-asians like me who don't really enjoy drinking and clubbing that much.
I also go to U of T, St George and to be honest; I don't really relate well to like Asian fobs.
I'm not gonna lie. If it weren't for the Drama program that I'm in where I can meet and greet people who aren't all Asian, I'd definitely go crazy. I mean, Canada is about diversity but I'm surrounded by Asians lol. That's not diverse to me; that's Too Asian lol.
Seriously though; I don't know what it is but there is definitely some kinda barrier when it comes to extra curricular activities at the University. I can't explain exactly but there's some kinda barrier.
I can't lie; Sometimes I wish I did go to University of Western Ontario or... heck, even Queens or something.
On November 11 2010 14:17 jjun212 wrote: I'm Asian but born and raised in Canada.
I also go to U of T, St George and to be honest; I don't really relate well to like Asian fobs.
I'm not gonna lie. If it weren't for the Drama program that I'm in where I can meet and greet people who aren't all Asian, I'd definitely go crazy. I mean, Canada is about diversity but I'm surrounded by Asians lol. That's not diverse to me; that's Too Asian lol.
Seriously though; I don't know what it is but there is definitely some kinda barrier when it comes to extra curricular activities at the University. I can't explain exactly but there's some kinda barrier.
I can't lie; Sometimes I wish I did go to University of Western Ontario or... heck, even Queens or something.
On November 11 2010 14:01 midgettoes wrote: Now in her interview my friend did not convince the interviewer she had good "people skills" which is deemed very important in the line of work she wanted to pursue. The interviewer told her - paraphrased slightly since this is a second re-telling (ie she told me, I'm telling you) - that she couldn't expect to help her patients or their families, and she would have no way of sympathising with them when delivering news about serious conditions/illness. The interviewer placed this value so highly that she was rejected because of this. Do you know what he recommended she should do to improve this skill? Play team sports.
You Aussies are pretty serious about your team sports. I think this is just cultural bias.
And people make snap judgments about other people on anything!
I think midgettoes has a very good point though. Team sports does help a lot with improving social skills. At least, if I didn't do swimming in high school, right now I wouldn't have the social skills to meet new people without feeling extremely awkward and shy.
On November 11 2010 14:17 jjun212 wrote: I'm Asian but born and raised in Canada.
I also go to U of T, St George and to be honest; I don't really relate well to like Asian fobs.
I'm not gonna lie. If it weren't for the Drama program that I'm in where I can meet and greet people who aren't all Asian, I'd definitely go crazy. I mean, Canada is about diversity but I'm surrounded by Asians lol. That's not diverse to me; that's Too Asian lol.
Seriously though; I don't know what it is but there is definitely some kinda barrier when it comes to extra curricular activities at the University. I can't explain exactly but there's some kinda barrier.
I can't lie; Sometimes I wish I did go to University of Western Ontario or... heck, even Queens or something.
It's been common knowledge that many selective colleges discriminate against Asians because there are already so many in attendance. As long as it's a private college, and most selective colleges are, they really have the right to shape their university. But what is misleading is that colleges aren't trying to make colleges more "white". They want greater cultural diversity; they don't want too many students of any race, be it Asian or white. This is certainly a reasonable view for any college because diversity contributes to intellectual growth; different cultures naturally approach things differently and having different viewpoints available is always beneficial. .
I really like the fact that admission in Canada is mostly merit-based; it's almost impossible to get into a good school in the States if you are Asian-American.
Also, UT got nothing on UW in terms of "Asian"-ness... lol...
Meh.. same with UBC. In fact, UBC has been dubbed University of Billions Chinese but obviously the reason why UBC/UofT have such a large Asian population is due to these University being well-known internationally and excel in certain faculties.
Pardon my stereotype but as an Asian myself, I observed a general pattern: 1. Asians tend to choose Commerce or Engineering/Science as their first choice. 2. Those who don't make it into their first choice end up in Arts. 3. UBC/UofT are ranked one of the best in Engineering/Commerce in Canada.
To summarize: Most Asian apply to UBC/UofT for their commerce/engineering program. Those who don't make it still end up in UBC/UofT's Arts faculty. Therefore, UBC/UofT is overflowed with Asians.
On November 11 2010 14:29 FishForThought wrote: Meh.. same with UBC. In fact, UBC has been dubbed University of Billions Chinese but obviously the reason why UBC/UofT have such a large Asian population is due to these University being well-known internationally and excel in certain faculties.
Pardon my stereotype but as an Asian myself, I observed a general pattern: 1. Asians tend to choose Commerce or Engineering/Science as their first choice. 2. Those who don't make it into their first choice end up in Arts. 3. UBC/UofT are ranked one of the best in Engineering/Commerce in Canada.
To summarize: Most Asian apply to UBC/UofT for their commerce/engineering program. Those who don't make it still end up in UBC/UofT's Arts faculty. Therefore, UBC/UofT is overflowed with Asians.
The question is "is this a bad thing?" Doing more to promote socialization with non-Asians sounds fine to me. Changing university admissions to de-emphasize academics to increase diversity sounds retarded (unsurprisingly the USA does that).
On November 11 2010 12:30 alan25 wrote: im asian, im not saying all asians are like this but if you notice how an asian immigrant parent treats their kids its pretty abusive, mostly you see this at a very young age, the kids have to yell to get any attention, you're basically emotionally damaged/distant from the beginning, this goes into the stereotype of "blank face asians" its not because asians are born like that, its because a lot of parents are very abusive and to them (the victims), feeling anything (emotions) is very difficult for anyone who has abusive parents.
"ya but i thought all parents know how to raise their kids with love" this isn't true for asian parents (they literally ignore it or forgotten what love is), i wouldn't call them cowards, but its a very a long cycle that has gone on for centuries, hitting/disciplining is just way a of life for asians (at least to poorer less educated which is a majority) to be shitty and unforgiving.
from what i've seen with my younger cousin (he's 4 now), it seems like he doesn't have much of a grounding (a strong emotionally/happy mother/father to look up to) so the child acts very ill tempered which reflects their own parents. So in turn for the child acting in such a bad manner his parents do hit him on occasion, his mother even talks to mine about i'm actually quoting "you need to bring the child indoors so white people don't see you hitting him", from what i've seen its just another case of a new born loving child confused about why the fuck is everyone around him so shitty i.e "unfun". its just fear over love, im sure a lot of people might have the same issues of trusting someone with your emotions.
as time progresses the child either becomes like his parents (distant emotionally, ignorant), or he can stop being like that and say "fuck it, ill run around naked to prove fearlessness like a raised by love white man" =p
This is complete bullshit for one reason - incongruent cultures. If you live in a Western society you get all sorts of conflicting messages from an Asian family versus society at large. Asian culture tells you to study hard and get a well-paying job so you can support a family. Western culture tells you to pursue your individual dreams and damn everybody else.
In a Western country where Asian kids adopt Western values, immigrant Asian parents don't know how to handle their rebelliousness except by the way they were dealt with as unruly children - through means that Westerners would fear for getting child services called on them. In the end it only serves to reinforce the image of strict, uncaring, abusive Asian parents, and creates a tension between being filial and "being yourself."
The funny thing is that in an Asian country, parents treat their kids this way ALL the time - and guess what? They end up pretty well-adjusted, because there wasn't at least as much incongruency between parental values and societal values. They laugh about the times they were smacked around for being mischievous children WITH their parents.
So no, I don't think Asian parents are unloving cruel disciplinarians. It's just inherent of being an immigrant family that creates these problems.
ya child abuse is something to laugh about.
well adjusted? china has the highest crime rate of adults stabbing little pre schoolers, china is in a horrible state, there's a growing rate of child abduction and organ stealing, why? because abusive shitty hivemind mentality of "lets make more babies to live out an entire lifetime of poverty because i would be ruled as an outcast if i rebel"
you're pretty uninformed dude, you should probably stop posting
That like rarely happens anyways and they still have tons of fun in school...
High schools in Indian teach Integration in their last years, and then they go on to take Diffy Q and Multivariable, LA, Topology, QM,...
On November 11 2010 12:59 FuRong wrote: Seriously, I don't see how this is a problem. There will always be a degree of racial segregation (in terms of socialising) at universities, just like in real life. People generally tend to hang out with others who are like them and share the same interests and values, and this isn't going to change.
I dunno about everyone else, but I would be the first in line to sign up for a university that had a reputation for being "too asian". It would certainly be a welcome break from the retarded "hurp durp let's get drunk every weekend and skate by with a C- average" mainstream culture of universities in NZ. I'm white but I can probably count the number of white friends I have on one hand. At uni me and my friends would often complain that university organised events were nothing but drinking and partying. Hell, the biggest student club at AU is the fucking "drinking club", I kid you not. By far the most fun events we attended were organised by the asian clubs or through groups of friends.
Will the percentage of Asians at universities continue to grow? Yes, because in general Asians have a better work ethic and will out-perform their white counterparts academically. Does this mean that the demographics and culture on campus will change? Of course it does. But is this a cause for concern? Hell no, I think it's a good thing if Asians raise the bar a little and create a desirable social alternative to the widely accepted university lifestyle of drinking, partying and not giving a fuck.
If you want people to do something other than drink, party and not give a fuck you have to make university mean something. Right now we have way too many people going to university because university is the new high school, you don't go there because you want or expect to learn something, you go there because it's a line item you're expected to have on your resume if you want to get a job. Why do you need it to get a job? Because everyone else going for the job went to university too, so you don't want to be the one who is thrown in the bin before even getting an interview.
Education isn't about learning, it's an arms race where everyone is trying to one up each other. Seems to me the people have realised this and know that getting that degree at the end is the only point and are at least determined to have a good time doing so (drinking and partying is what a lot of people enjoy, like it or not).
I completely agree with you, but entrance standards and the value of a university education is probably material for another new thread entirely. I don't know that much about entrance standards in Australia, but university entrance in NZ is a joke.
To clarify, I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with drinking and partying. If you wanna do that then that's great, more power to you, no-one is stopping you. But at the same time, if you're NOT into that scene then that's cool too. The article in the OP seems to be lamenting the fact that Asians don't contribute anything to university culture because they don't drink and party as much. My point is that they DO socialise and contribute, but just in different ways, and I like the fact that it provides an alternative social scene for non-asians like me who don't really enjoy drinking and clubbing that much.
Nah the standards in Australia are pretty low too, the government is always under pressure for more university places to look like they're doing something for education, so that basically means that anyone who wants to go to university can get in somewhere.
Maybe I'm just an old fart and not in touch with modern university culture (when I went was over a decade ago now) but I don't really feel like there was a massive drinking culture that the Asian groups were the only alternative to. Then again I can't recall it being a case of Asians keeping to themselves either. I guess it depends on which university you go to and which groups you hang out with?
On November 11 2010 14:07 Chairman Ray wrote: From my point of view, I see white vs asian as minimalism vs elitism. A typical white student will realize that getting a 4.0 GPA gets you the same degree as a 2.5 GPA, and after your first job, your GPA won't even matter anymore. They spend just the amount of time working to get the 2.5 GPA and spend the rest of their time doing things they enjoy. A typical asian will do well just for the sake of doing well. In the asian culture, achieving high standards means a lot, even if nothing comes out of it. That's why a lot of asian parents make their kids practice piano 1-2 hours a day and tell them never to be a musician. It's just the idea of being better for the sake of being better. I suppose high achievements are what fulfills asians, equivalent to partying and drinking for white people.
I agree. I am also asian and we just have different values. While it is not true for everyone, facts are that asians tend to have different values than others when it comes to school. I can relate to most of my friends (white), whose parents kick them out of the house at 18 years old so they learn by themselves. On the other hand, my others friends (asian) and myself, our parents would never kick us out at 18 for no reason. They would allow us to stay home, until wefinish school, or even have a great career before moving out. We just have different values.
For us, school matters more than interacting (although many exceptions, i myself dont have super high grades and socialize more), but my parents taught me piano when i was young, made me do karate until black belt to learn determination, perseverance etc. Its just about parents values. Us parents come from a different background. Most of us parents lived war and poverty, then moved to Canada. They have learned that school and money can bring you far in life, which is why they are trying to put that into our mind. The parents of my white friends, although i might be just stereotyping, probably came from wealthier in nature, did not have to fight poverty/war, and did not have to move to a new country and adapt. Although i might be stereotyping, i believe that culture and values from canadians are different than asians.
PS: to all asians: How bad would it be in your asian entourage if you got a divorce? just a proof of different values from different people
On November 11 2010 14:07 Chairman Ray wrote: It's just the idea of being better for the sake of being better. I suppose high achievements are what fulfills asians, equivalent to partying and drinking for white people.
Nailed it. I've read some posts lambasting students who sacrifice the fun opportunities in the present and that in the end they'll wonder why they did. But bettering yourself is what makes some people happy in the present.
that article is laughable, or, maybe, it is THAT bad in us/canada??XDD here in europe i have seen many hardworking asians students, as well as ALOT of hardworking(read: give up party to do study/do homework) white/caucasians students. general consensus is that local student will always dominate the top students portion in the class, and then followed by above average oversea students(chinese, indian/middle easterner, caucasians from us etc) and then maybe some average local+oversea mix.
and if you are talking about drinking culture. hehe. come ireland. and you will realise how big the students drinking issues there.
I'm korean (moved from Seoul when I was two) and was told all my life to study hard to go to a good school. I remember the first time I got a "B" in middle school my parents were very upset, and I was upset that they got so upset. I grew up in a predominantly non-asian area in the Tampa, Florida area and it felt unfair to be treated so "harshly" relative to my peers for "only" B's.
In the end, I am grateful. For the younger ones on this forum, Trust me, getting a damn good education and a damn good job does more for your social life after college than all the socializing in high school is ever going to do, unless you plan on living near your high school all your life....
On November 11 2010 12:02 Flakes wrote: As a half-asian, I was encouraged by counselors and my parents to identify as "white" or at least "multi-racial" when applying for college, since applying as an asian could hurt my chances.
Well putting Asian would be silly anyway because (I assume) you've grown up in a Western country.
Half Asians never look Asian anyways. Most half Asians can pass off as being Caucasian.
On November 11 2010 14:56 BurningSera wrote: that article is laughable, or, maybe, it is THAT bad in us/canada??XDD here in europe i have seen many hardworking asians students, as well as ALOT of hardworking(read: give up party to do study/do homework) white/caucasians students. general consensus is that local student will always dominate the top students portion in the class, and then followed by above average oversea students(chinese, indian/middle easterner, caucasians from us etc) and then maybe some average local+oversea mix.
and if you are talking about drinking culture. hehe. come ireland. and you will realise how big the students drinking issues there.
I dont think its that bad. Its the same at my university.
While I don't have complete liberty to speak on behalf of Asians in general, being white and all, but I will say this. Real or not, the preconceived notion of different admissions standards definitely had my girl freaked out when she was looking into law school. I tried to coach her through it since I'm a 2L and had just gone through the process a year earlier at that time. But obviously there was a different concern than I went through. Even if a lot of it is mental the stress it causes is pretty real.
“At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”
This is the most level-headed thing in the whole article and it's spot-on.
On November 11 2010 13:27 jstar wrote: I agree with some parts of your post, but most of it is way too generalized.
And there is no such thing as "Relatively Poor International Students"
International students have to pay triple of domestic student's tuition. If they're from China (Most of them are from China not Hong Kong), and they can afford plane tickets, 4-5 years of their child's rent/living expenses, and the tuition, they are anything but poor.
There are the CBCs, the fobs, and the super fobs, that's it. Income really has nothing to do with it. Some CBCs are rich, some are poor, some fobs are rich, some are poor. All super fobs (The international students) are rich.
As for partying/drinking, again, you can't just generalize them into groups. Some likes to party a lot, some rarely does it and some never.
At my University, about I would say about 60% are from HK, and 40% from China. I don't know why it works out that way, cause I do know that most international students are from mainland.
Some of them are relatively poor, as in, most of their parent's money, if not all of their parent's money are going toward tuition and housing. Yes, they can afford it. But at what cost? From what I know, some of my friends are rich and are living here comfortable. Others, are scraping by. Why? Because their parent's want their children to not be in China/HK.
Yes, I did generalize. (May be to much so?) However, I did state that as my defense and most of this is from my own experience.
“At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”
This is the most level-headed thing in the whole article and it's spot-on.
It could also mean that
???? Her son failed to do good enough in high school so he was able to get a job.
They could always go to a college and transfer later or even in their final year and it'll show as getting a degree from said university...
On November 11 2010 13:27 jstar wrote: I agree with some parts of your post, but most of it is way too generalized.
And there is no such thing as "Relatively Poor International Students"
International students have to pay triple of domestic student's tuition. If they're from China (Most of them are from China not Hong Kong), and they can afford plane tickets, 4-5 years of their child's rent/living expenses, and the tuition, they are anything but poor.
There are the CBCs, the fobs, and the super fobs, that's it. Income really has nothing to do with it. Some CBCs are rich, some are poor, some fobs are rich, some are poor. All super fobs (The international students) are rich.
As for partying/drinking, again, you can't just generalize them into groups. Some likes to party a lot, some rarely does it and some never.
At my University, about I would say about 60% are from HK, and 40% from China. I don't know why it works out that way, cause I do know that most international students are from mainland.
Some of them are relatively poor, as in, most of their parent's money, if not all of their parent's money are going toward tuition and housing. Yes, they can afford it. But at what cost? From what I know, some of my friends are rich and are living here comfortable. Others, are scraping by. Why? Because their parent's want their children to not be in China/HK.
Yes, I did generalize. (May be to much so?) However, I did state that as my defense and most of this is from my own experience.
Don't they also want their children to learn English, too?
in Differentiation course in high school, all the kids were Asians and they're pretty social save only three white people of which two were guys and one white girl
On November 11 2010 12:10 yoplate wrote: I would say on some levels this article is right. The majority of asian students that I know will skip a party to finish homework/study, while the majority of white students I know will go to the party and not do the homework. It is blown out of proportion in the article, but there is definitely a difference in work ethics between the two groups.
I for a fact know this to be true. I mean, Asians to tend to do better in school... legit, too This article focuses way to hard on the Asians.. I mean, if I get turned down for a job because of people who went to school, did the 4 years of hard work, and got the grades, then so be it, they deserve it. What bothers me is when, and this is not to change to subject, there are other minorities that attend school, cheat their ways through, then find jobs in Canada using their ill-gotten degrees they scammed as bartering chips.
Yeah man, I'm Asian and I can't compete with the others. Doesn't mean I whine about it, I just try harder. If I can't be a Hollywood actor because all the white guys have the spots, I'm not going to QQ about it. Instead, I will focus on what else I am good at, and unfortunately, that is not SC2. -_-
I think another reason is that asians are very competitive within friends and family. As a Korean, many parents of my friends would talk with each other about how their kids were doing and it would usually be a 1-up fest. So my parents were very stern about me getting straight A's,and would get pissed off if I got a B, and the same was for all of my friends as we would talk about it. I always thought it was sort of BS because I knew a bunch of "white" kids that would get rewards if they got better grades like money and Xbox's and whatever but I never got anything. Then over winter breaks and summer vacation I wasn't even allowed to go on the computer or watch tv unless I read books for like 4 hours before. It sucks being Asian sometimes =(
On November 11 2010 12:03 Piy wrote: Lol, you can boil the article down to:
How can we make the smart kids stop making the stupider kids feel bad about being stupid?
Yeah essentially. I think this whole article misses the point when they were talking about Asians being less likely to socialize. Anyone in math/sciences is probably less likely to socialize, and Asians are more likely to go into math and science intensive degrees. I for one welcome having Asians be overrepresented in universities, because god knows we need less dumb women's studies/ethnic studies/sociologist/humanities retards running around draining resources and not actually learning anything useful. At least the Asians, more often than not, choose to gain skills our society collectively actually needs.
On November 11 2010 14:25 Enervate wrote: This is certainly a reasonable view for any college because diversity contributes to intellectual growth; different cultures naturally approach things differently and having different viewpoints available is always beneficial. .
From a purely anectodal standpoint, I think this is total bullshit. I'm a black/Latin man, and I doubt my mere presence enhances anyone's intellectual growth. I don't feel being around asian/white/native american/whatever students changes the way I think about anything either.
It'd be difficult to examine this from a statistical standpoint, but I'd wager that racial homogenization with a lot of Asians and Jews is what "magically" makes a university perform better academically. Just use the original article for instance; the schools with a lot of Asians are held to a higher academic standard. I highly doubt you could find evidence to support the notion that ethnic diversity in university's is correlated with a high level of academic and intellectual performance, all else constant.
On November 11 2010 13:27 jstar wrote: I agree with some parts of your post, but most of it is way too generalized.
And there is no such thing as "Relatively Poor International Students"
International students have to pay triple of domestic student's tuition. If they're from China (Most of them are from China not Hong Kong), and they can afford plane tickets, 4-5 years of their child's rent/living expenses, and the tuition, they are anything but poor.
There are the CBCs, the fobs, and the super fobs, that's it. Income really has nothing to do with it. Some CBCs are rich, some are poor, some fobs are rich, some are poor. All super fobs (The international students) are rich.
As for partying/drinking, again, you can't just generalize them into groups. Some likes to party a lot, some rarely does it and some never.
At my University, about I would say about 60% are from HK, and 40% from China. I don't know why it works out that way, cause I do know that most international students are from mainland.
Some of them are relatively poor, as in, most of their parent's money, if not all of their parent's money are going toward tuition and housing. Yes, they can afford it. But at what cost? From what I know, some of my friends are rich and are living here comfortable. Others, are scraping by. Why? Because their parent's want their children to not be in China/HK.
Yes, I did generalize. (May be to much so?) However, I did state that as my defense and most of this is from my own experience.
Don't they also want their children to learn English, too?
in Differentiation course in high school, all the kids were Asians and they're pretty social save only three white people of which two were guys and one white girl
I was responding to his response to me?
If you are wondering if the international students want to learn English... I want to say yes, but also want to say no. They do teach English there, so most students (at least the ones I know) have at least a English background, as in they can read relatively well. Speaking, not so much.
The best way to learn English is basically surround yourself with people who speak English. I am born in Canada, but I can speak Cantonese fairly well. We tend to resort to speaking Cantonese cause I am more comfortable speaking Cantonese then they are speaking English. I'm in a engineering program, so maybe we are more math oriented and they do not require as much English immersion?
On November 11 2010 12:18 ZoW wrote: It's pretty much a known fact all Asians go to class, go back, study, study, study some more. Its just the way asian parenting works, where you get drilled to have a good work ethic.
The article is quite true, but hey, why would you care so much about what they say or think? Sure they have fun, get the "social experience", party, drink, etc. Its fine if that's what they want to do, everyone's got a choice how they want to live.
But then asians spend time on their grades, because its the smart thing to do. sure you miss out on being social for a few years, but 10 years later when your living off 6 figures a year and on a yacht ballin' with other rich people you'll thank yourself and laugh at all the idiots you knew in university who got shit faced everyday.
Listen kid, I appreciate that youre trying to say that its ok to be very devoted to your studies. I agree, its ok to study a lot, its ok to be a nerd, and whatnot. But it is NOT a fact that "all Asians go to class, go back, study, study, study some more." I think its fucking ridiculous that in 2010 people still think its ok to generalize an entire race.
I'm Asian, I don't do that. Yea, I believe that my studies are very important. I have a 3.7 in my masters program for accounting. I study and work a part time job outside of class. In my free time, I b-boy 2 or 3 times a week and I work out in between those days 3 times a week. On the weekends I kick it with my friends by either going to bars, hittin the clubs, or just playing SC2.
A lot of my friends are Asian and don't do that. One of them finished his Aeronautics and Astronautics degree and is working at Boeing now. He plays basketball and goes out drinking a lot in his free time. At the same time I have Asian friends who do study a lot and play a lot of video games.
My point is, it is not a known fact that all Asians are the same. I cant believe you actually spout that nonsense.
EDIT: nevermind, my bad. Just read your next post regarding bad wording in your above post.
On November 11 2010 12:18 ZoW wrote: It's pretty much a known fact all Asians go to class, go back, study, study, study some more. Its just the way asian parenting works, where you get drilled to have a good work ethic.
Don't say 'all Asians'. It's not a fact. I know just as many Asians who are smart as who are dumb. Don't pretend like we're one faceless entity who are programmed from birth to think, act, and talk the same way. I am constantly amazed that people can talk about Asians this way without getting called out for it.
I'm asian too btw, and yeah i definitely could have worded that better. My bad if I offended you.
Its just the whole societal stigma I've grown up around i guess. it was always a competition between all my friends from elementary to junior high of who got better grades and did better in school. Our parents just raised us that way, where its like "OH WHY CANT YOU BE LIKE HIM? HE GOT A 100 AND YOU GOT A 97". Funny thing is I was the only one to get tired of it :\
I feel ya man. I was always being compared to other super smart kids. My dad always tried to use shame and punishment to motivate rather than encouragement. I definitely was pretty messed in the head growing up. Eventually, like you, I got fed up with that shit. I still strive for good grades, but I do other things. Still, Im definitely a little bitter about not having the social skills to have friends for more than half my life.
What's the deal with people thinking that college should be"the best time of your life"?
Maybe it's just cause I'm a science major but now is the time too work hard. I'm learning the knowledge that will be required for my future career/the rest of my life. Are you telling me everything after college is going to be worse? Boy people have low aspirations.
So people are complaining that Asians are too smart and so white kids cant compete? And that the Asians dont drink/party enough. That is one of the stupidest things i have ever read.
Why not just complain that you are too stupid? I really don't get this article.
What's up with people thinking university is about drinking and socializing? You could do that outside of university, makes no sense.
I'm Chinese and have fairly traditional Asian parents, although they're probably way more liberal than most other asian parents I know. I've always tried to balance the appearance of a social life (when I was in high school) between my parents and my friends. Mostly I just got by with a lot of lying and deception, while still maintaining good grades/studying a lot. Honestly, it's one of the most frustrating things to have to deal with, having to maintain a double identity most of the time, but I've always felt it made me stronger socially -- being able to fine-tune balance my different social circles.
It's also somewhat frustrating dealing with people who later think you're cool because you participate in 'x activity', while still excelling in academics.
It does also really piss me off when my parents guilt trip me (comparing me to my cousins in China or their Cultural Revolution days), probably why I cannot identify very well with a lot of Asians who seem to be fairly oblivious socially.
On November 11 2010 16:51 Deadlyfish wrote: So people are complaining that Asians are too smart and so white kids cant compete? And that the Asians dont drink/party enough. That is one of the stupidest things i have ever read.
Why not just complain that you are too stupid? I really don't get this article.
What's up with people thinking university is about drinking and socializing? You could do that outside of university, makes no sense.
not if none of your friends were smart enough to get into the same university and 99% of everyone you meet while in school will have zero interest in anything that isn't studying.
some of these kids are under so much pressure that once they complete school, they don't have any clue how to integrate into the real world. developing more advanced social skills (i don't mean binge drinking) and especially networking with as many people as you can is easily the most underrated part of higher education.
On November 11 2010 16:51 Deadlyfish wrote: So people are complaining that Asians are too smart and so white kids cant compete? And that the Asians dont drink/party enough. That is one of the stupidest things i have ever read.
Why not just complain that you are too stupid? I really don't get this article.
What's up with people thinking university is about drinking and socializing? You could do that outside of university, makes no sense.
not if none of your friends were smart enough to get into the same university and 99% of everyone you meet while in school will have zero interest in anything that isn't studying.
some of these kids are under so much pressure that once they complete school, they don't have any clue how to integrate into the real world. developing more advanced social skills (i don't mean binge drinking) and especially networking with as many people as you can is easily the most underrated part of higher education.
I'm pretty sure that's the extreme minority. I know tons of asians with good grades but none of them are anti-social or under that much pressure.
I think the point of the article is to highlight the idea of how much is too much.
Much of the article concerns itself with Asian work ethic when it comes to schooling, while admirably hey perform better than their peers, they sacrifice social skills and interaction to do so. Is this really worth it, is probably the question.
It isn't pointing out that we HAVE to go to clubs and drink at universities, it's that while it's normal to do this occasionally in a university setting, Asian students are completely abolishing the experience of university social life for the sake of studying. At the same time, they are indirectly affecting the mindset of those who are also shooting for higher level education with their university choice, by skewing demographics.
It also references that much of it has to do with parents. I'm Taiwanese, and I can tell you, that as an Asian student, your parents have a RIDICULOUS impact on what you do, both socially and educationally. It's not uncommon to say a school is a good school on the grounds of the demographic being predominantly Asian.
Go to U of T myself =) it's true that chinese cliques are abundant (but sadly quite exclusive) at least in the STG campus (although the same can be said for many cultural or ethnic groups). I'm Chinese (HK) myself, but I consider myself lucky to not have joined those Chinese clubs and have a diverse core of friends instead. Stuck around other HKers and fobs in first semester first year, HATED it, ditched, found better friends I was raised in a strict family setting too, stereotypical study all day practice piano all night upbringing; it's just a general cultural work ethic I suppose. Many immigrant students know how much it takes to move and survive in a new setting (not just in terms of financial risk) and are taught to work hard and maximize their educational opportunities. I'm glad that university admissions in Canada are based solely(?) on merit
On November 11 2010 17:06 piroko139 wrote: I think the point of the article is to highlight the idea of how much is too much.
Much of the article concerns itself with Asian work ethic when it comes to schooling, while admirably hey perform better than their peers, they sacrifice social skills and interaction to do so. Is this really worth it, is probably the question.
It isn't pointing out that we HAVE to go to clubs and drink at universities, it's that while it's normal to do this occasionally in a university setting, Asian students are completely abolishing the experience of university social life for the sake of studying. At the same time, they are indirectly affecting the mindset of those who are also shooting for higher level education with their university choice, by skewing demographics.
It also references that much of it has to do with parents. I'm Taiwanese, and I can tell you, that as an Asian student, your parents have a RIDICULOUS impact on what you do, both socially and educationally. It's not uncommon to say a school is a good school on the grounds of the demographic being predominantly Asian.
Extreme pressure on asian kids isn't the norm, it's an extreme example like the white parents who put pressure on their kids to be tennis stars training them from childhood. Sure the average asian parents care more about school, but that doesn't mean they're mostly crazy oppressive.
I don't understand how can people bash others for having good grades. Last time I checked hard work was something good, not something to be scorned at, laughed at, or ridiculed for. Sure, some people will argue, "Hey having a GPA of 4.0 is no different than a 2.0 in real life LOLOL." How true this is, I don't know.
But it isn't about the bloody grade, its about the work ethic that you develop when you tried to achieve good grades. University is about character building - some people come out of their shells and become more sociable, others discover their passions, or find the love of their life, etc. It isn't about partying, drinking, or any of that bullshit. And really, is that the definition of 'white' culture? To party and drink? They do that everywhere, especially from where I'm from.
For those of you that are contempt of simply passing university to get a degree, more power to you. Personally, I see it as a challenge and if I miss out on all the drinking or partying, fuck I have my entire left to get wasted later on. As a foreign student mysef, if I wanted to fucking party and drink I'd stay at home. Shit is cheaper. People talking shit about how asians are 'brain washed' to work hard are really ignorant, stop trying to justify your reasons for not working hard.
Honestly, I fail to see the problem here. Only two things could be happening here: A) They are selecting the better students to be in college, where a large number happen to be asian. B) There is a flaw in the current system of meritocracy and they are not selecting the better students.
So either school grades do not describe a student's potential, or non-asian students don't work as hard. Likely, its a combination of these two, but the articles tangents into social life etc. borderline on whining. And if college is supposed to be more than academics, they mentioned that only certain colleges (waterloo, etc) were having this problem whereas the other colleges were more balanced. And if that's what they want out of a college education, so be it. If others want a heavily academically focused education, let them do that too. The only people who seem pissed are the people who wanted to say "My kid/I go to X school, that means I'm smart and therefore a better person than you!" when they didn't really earn it.
I disagree with alot of stuff mentioned in this article.
1. Asians do have a very active social life in college (maybe not to "white" standards). Most college Asian college students party alot and is very involved. 2. White people has the same, if not a better, chance of getting admitted into the same college. The only problem is that white people tend to devote less time towards their education and now they are complaining about Asians taking their spot. This is just an excuse. Do you want a Asian doctor that spent 2000 hours studying health or a white doctor that only spent 1000 hours studying? 3. I think it is the most unfair for Asians because they have to work harder to achieve the same social standards.
I laugh at the fact that drinking has been accepted into society. Drinking is an very unhealthy habit and this article seems to portray it in a positive light. I can't help but feel that society is backtracking their progress that they made towards tolerance. I'm glad I live in a predominately minority society that I don't have to deal with this.
I have never been more repulsed by this article than any other article in my life. Its kind of depressing to read that social still functions on ethic distinction.
So either school grades do not describe a student's potential, or non-asian students don't work as hard. Likely, its a combination of these two, but the articles tangents into social life etc. borderline on whining. And if college is supposed to be more than academics, they mentioned that only certain colleges (waterloo, etc) were having this problem whereas the other colleges were more balanced. And if that's what they want out of a college education, so be it. If others want a heavily academically focused education, let them do that too. The only people who seem pissed are the people who wanted to say "My kid/I go to X school, that means I'm smart and therefore a better person than you!" when they didn't really earn it.
I agree. This might mean that a less intelligent individual gets accepted over a more intelligent individual. But this factor doesn't really matter if the more intelligent individual lacks a work ethic.
Consider this scenario: An less intelligent individual devotes all their time and learn all the information. An more intelligent individual devotes less time and only learns some information even though they could probably accomplish the same amount of studying as the less intelligent individual in 2/3th of the time.
The more intelligent individual shows that they lack a work ethic and they are unreliable unlike the less intelligent individual. As a result, you would trust the more determined, less intelligent person over your life than the lazy, intelligent individual.
I currently go to a high schools in Sydney, Australia. Being an Asian myself, I do socialise, and many of my friends socialise, we end up playing Starcraft / Warcraft III, and we do go out. The racial stereotype thing where white parents tell you that you stopped their child from getting into certain selective schools is fairly prevalent here. For example, the top 4/5 high schools here have Asian populations exceeding 95%, literally. My schools has 1200 people with at least 1100 of them being Asian, not necessarily yellow skinned but including Indians, etc.
You can still get good grades & socialise, I myself score decent, not brilliant marks, but manage to go out every week + fit in 10 odd hours of games all the time. There may be some people who don't socialise a lot, but this percentage is overblown from like 5% to the state where it becomes a stereotype. The white people in this school have changed into more 'Asian' styles of socialising, playing Starcraft & whatnot, while many Asians here are rather decent at sports. State champions for both basketball + volleyball.
Asians like to have good marks, they do care about their marks, many white people do as well. White people strive for a solid mark, while Asians like to overachieve, getting their straight A's etc. But thats not always the case, there's a Russian, who consistently scores very well and manages to find time to spend 15 hrs a week to play L4D/Halo/CoD and other games.
I don't understand why the mother think her son is more entitled just because he's white. If it was me I would straight told her the reason, it's because you failed as a parent.
Seriously, de-academic University admission? If you can't get decent grades in High school, you will definitely flunk out/go on probation after the first year of University.
Personal Anecdote: I graduated from UBC Engineering and lets see..
1st year, we had 7-8 courses per term, I get up at 6:30am just so I can get to my 8:00 class on time, I have class straight till 4:30pm, I get home around 5:30 ish, eat dinner, do my assignments (which counts for grades) then sleep.
2nd year, I was in this project-oriented program. For each project during crunch time, I had to stay overnight at school and be awake for over 30+ hours and we had 4 projects throughout the semester. Not to mention there was normal course work and exams too.
3rd -4th year. Co-op/Internship mixed with 3rd/4th year course work. Actually these two years wasn't that bad, probably because we already gotten used to heavy course work in the 1st/2nd year but had to use my summer to take courses so I don't spend a decade to graduate.
You really think a low academic student can survive this course load when he could barely do well with High school load?
This article felt like it wanted to state something that we might see on an extremely broad and general scale. Being in medical school in AZ, it is jarring to see the disproportionate amount of Asians in my class compared to how many Asians that actually live in this state.
The underlined part is also true for med school admissions. They'll ask about leadership, social activities, and other things besides the MCAT and gpa. I don't know what middle ground they're looking for, but it will stop eventually.
One example would be residencies for physicians. The initial filter for interviewees is very strict, almost purely a 'meritocracy' as the article states over and over. Obviously, you want the best residents to be the most capable right? Well, after that, you're pretty much in the clear. It's all about personality from there.
I wish this article had a solution or something, rather than state some anomalous generalizations about Asians (which, from personal experience of being Asian, is true in terms of tradition).
Asian kids, meanwhile, say they are resented for taking the spots of white kids. “At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”
Probably a blessing in disguise. Canadian kid who missed out on arts school has more chance getting a non-arts related jobs than an arts one (if he achieved the arts degree) not to mention the debt load of getting the arts degree (did i mention theres hardly any jobs at the end of that degree?)
Doesn't matter a fuck what colour and race you are. Dumb shit is dumb shit. I'm sure alot of Asian students don't bother even lifting a pen and get into better uni's than whites. Take me for an example. I didn't do shit in Year 12 and I got into a competitive course in Australia. And i'm proabbly hte laziest cunt in my year right now.
Asian kids, meanwhile, say they are resented for taking the spots of white kids. “At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”
Probably a blessing in disguise. Canadian kid who missed out on arts school has more chance getting a non-arts related jobs than an arts one (if he achieved the arts degree) not to mention the debt load of getting the arts degree (did i mention theres hardly any jobs at the end of that degree?)
Yeah, I saw that. Then again, there are plenty of useless degrees to go around and if kids go into undergrad merely for the 'experience' of it, I really hope they're not surprised in the end.
I remember posting on another TL thread about going for your dreams and the eventual topic of degree value came up. This article kind of went into it with engineering but not so much.
After sharing it with some people on Facebook and re-reading it, I do understand why they retracted it. It was simply too blunt and many of the comments on it are calling it flat out racist.
On November 11 2010 18:38 nihoh wrote: Doesn't matter a fuck what colour and race you are. Dumb shit is dumb shit. I'm sure alot of Asian students don't bother even lifting a pen and get into better uni's than whites. Take me for an example. I didn't do shit in Year 12 and I got into a competitive course in Australia. And i'm proabbly hte laziest cunt in my year right now.
I didn;t study at all and went hardcore CS gaming all my high school life. Now im in a top 40 school in a top course that requires 97 UAI/ATAR whatever they call it now. How the hell did that happen, we will never know lol.
As the United States progresses towards decadent meritocracy, it should come as no surprise that the oriental thrives in the environment, for it so nearly replicates the rigid and impersonal Confucian bureaucracy of his ancestors.
It is a world to which all his native instincts are drawn. All the ancient Confucian attitudes about the supremacy of education, en rote learning, familial obligation, hierarchal intellectual authority, can be comfortably translated to modern America in a clean and tidy way. Like his ancestor, perhaps a prodigal son of ancient peasantry who connived through education to become an Imperial Mandarin, so does he now, son of hard-nosed immigrants, connive through the same to the same purpose. His rustic blood commands his instincts towards a comfortable mediocrity, and there he is content to stay.
An overripe and effete civilization works for him.
Two centuries ago, he would have made a poor frontiersman. Two centuries from now, he will have trouble adapting to new chaotic conditions which the future will bring. All fortune to him for having been born here and now!
Wow, maybe things are different in the US where the Asian demographics tend to be different (i.e. more Koreans and Taiwanese, less mainlanders and hongers, percentage-wise), but I knew plenty of Asians in college who went by the mantra "work hard, play hard." Of course, in high school, it's mostly just "work hard" given the intense pressure to do well to get to college, but for most Asians, college is the final destination as far as education goes.
edit: FYI, Canadians, "college" also refers to university in the US.
While I don't have complete liberty to speak on behalf of Asians in general, being white and all, but I will say this. Real or not, the preconceived notion of different admissions standards definitely had my girl freaked out when she was looking into law school. I tried to coach her through it since I'm a 2L and had just gone through the process a year earlier at that time. But obviously there was a different concern than I went through. Even if a lot of it is mental the stress it causes is pretty real.
Law school admission standards for Asians are, I believe, the same level as for Whites. You do get a huge boost for being Black or Latino, though.
For undergrad, I recall you effectively get a 100 point SAT penalty for being Asian rather than white. It's especially odd that a school like Yale (which has affirmative action) has something like 15% Asians while a school like Berkeley (which doesn't) is closer to 50%. The private elite schools refuse to go by pure merit essentially because of the fear of "Asianization." It sucks, and I'm sad Asians don't make more of a stink about it (though we have very little political pressure), but that's the way it is.
I respect certain cultures if they are worthy of respect. Asian cultures prioritize hard work and achievement over other things and i really wish from the bottom of my heart that other cultures would follow suite.
Personally, think Asians are mocked for the same reasons Jews are; simple insecurity and jealousy. Both cultures have demonstrated that they put success over other bullshit and I hold that in high esteem. The West could learn a lot from them.
Asians are awesome. During my foreign study the nicest people are asians.. korean, chinese.. I have yet to meet japanese. Also my Australian friend is cool. Some other people from europe just suck, are messy, and have too high ego. Asians are humble and tidy. Ah, I should've been born in Asia..
I'm Asian, so the majority of my family friends are Asians also. I have to say, I hate the holiday season simply because I must integrate myself with some of the most vapid people I have ever met in my life. The parties are horrible, all the parents do is brag about their child's academic achievements, and all the children do, whether they be 5, 15, or 20, is sit in a corner and escape into the electronic worlds of their iPod, Laptop, Xbox, etc.
Valuing an education is fine, same with the belief that clubbing all day is non conducive to the preparation of a college student to become an adult. But the overvaluing of education, just like drug dependency is non conducive to the adult world as well. Because of Asian households, I have witnessed two types of kids arise. The ones who cracked under the pressure of their academically demanding parents and now do MDMA on an bidaily basis, or those who complaisantly followed their parents orders and have become complaisant college students who's only purpose in life is to be their parents trophy child when we all get together for Thanksgiving or Christmas.
On November 11 2010 18:38 nihoh wrote: Doesn't matter a fuck what colour and race you are. Dumb shit is dumb shit. I'm sure alot of Asian students don't bother even lifting a pen and get into better uni's than whites. Take me for an example. I didn't do shit in Year 12 and I got into a competitive course in Australia. And i'm proabbly hte laziest cunt in my year right now.
I didn;t study at all and went hardcore CS gaming all my high school life. Now im in a top 40 school in a top course that requires 97 UAI/ATAR whatever they call it now. How the hell did that happen, we will never know lol.
actually it's all genetics, with some luck knowing the right people etc.
I think the real question Macleans should be asking is not "how do we make Asians drink and club more" but instead "how do we make North American-born whites value education more than drinking and clubbing and sports".
This is where the issue lies. When they are not willing to give up partying for studying, they clearly don't value education more than "social events". Tracing back to high school, or even middle school years, when has a straight-A student been more popular than a basketball star, QB, or cheerleader captain?
We can also agree that the education systems between Eastern Asia and North America regions are very different, with the Eastern Asia region being focused on studying rather than social events. When you have the best of them immigrate to NA, how do you expect the students in NA education environment to compete academically? Those Asians have many years of "head-start" in this rigorous and stressful academic situation.
If you can't beat them at their own game, then beat them in my own turf. Instead of breaking their head trying to study harder than Asians, they focus on building social network, which will help immensely in finding a job in NA.
On November 11 2010 12:09 Reason.SC2 wrote: Tangent:
There is a downside to the type of single-minded over-achiever culture that dominates these competitive schools. I have heard this from recruiters first hand and some very reputable big-name companies (which I will not mention) are beginning to take note:
A lot of the over-achievers work very hard to get where they're at. This comes at a cost though most of the time: underdeveloped social skills and emotional maturity can make this type of person very undesirable to work with, and bottom line less productive in a real job environment despite the good grades and know-how.
This of course has nothing to do with someone being Asian or not as single-minded study monsters that overachieve throughout the education process can be of any race or creed. More so it is to say that the "big-name" schools, which people compete to get into so that they can study 24/7 to be able to keep up with their class, are not nearly as desirable as they are made out to be.
Especially today where an undergrad degree is pretty much as useful as a roll of toilet paper... what matters most is where you *finish*. IMO to anyone reading this considering university, go to a school that will be less competitive. Focus on doing well there but don't forget to develop your social skills and personal maturity through having meaningful life experiences that go beyond getting an A+ in chem 101 or being an 'executive member' at the law and society club. Make sure that the school you go to for your Masters/PHD (or law school/med school, etc.) has a good reputation and really put in the work there... but for gods sake you're wasting time if you think an undergrad degree at a reputable school where you have to enslave yourself to books is worth anything.
You cannot deny the reputation of the university has a great impact in graduate school or job applications.
My dad is a doctor and one of his partners is korean. The man's mother died so he went back to Korea for the funeral. When he came back he asked him how he was doing and about the funeral and the first thing he said was "pressure's off." I admire the hard work of many asian students and wish I could do what they do, but to me something like this is just sad for someone who has long since left their home. The pressure to succeed seems almost unbearable to me.
White people are often lazy and want to take credit for things they haven't done.
"What, you mean I have to work harder now ?"
User was warned for this post
Edit: I didn't mean to be racist at all by this remark, although the way it was written it does appear quite racist. I do apologise. I'm just referring to situations like the one quoted in the OP:
“At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”
On November 12 2010 04:25 nosliw wrote: You cannot deny the reputation of the university has a great impact in graduate school or job applications.
Reading a biography about a famous Oxford grad who assures that the degree itself didn't help him much, but that the experience and connections and friendships he made there did. I've also had people apply to entry level jobs technician/assistant with ivy league educations and no experience, and not hiring them based on lack of experience and what a colleague feels is "flight risk".
I think that reputation only matters if you went to a place like Oxford or Harvard, and even then not so much. I think that Grad schools differ based on type. Medical schools I applied to were mostly interested in extra curricular stuff and personality (once you're past the MCAT and GPA thing). Master's level and PhD science programs seemed to ask mostly about my research experience and ideas about what I wanted to do.
I'd be curious to hear what Law Schools ask potential students about? Any law students doing interviews right now? 'Tis the season
I think one of the bigger things to look at with university is that grades don't matter as long as you pass. If you pass with 55% or with 95% you still only have say a BCom(or BA or BCS, etc...) on your resume. The real question is did the 55% student do other things with high time at university? Work, Co-op, volunteering, student associations, clubs, sports, etc...
So what is happening is your having students who come to university, get 95% and leave with nothing else. This reflects poorly on the student (no employer is going to ask "so what grade did you get in ADM 1104?"), and it reflects poorly on the school.
How does it reflect poorly on the school? Well businesses recruit from schools (for example RBC exclusively recruits from the University of Ottawa), if a school cannot put out students that are both book smart and street smart then what use is that educational institution?
Its great and all to get 90's but if you have no social life, that detracts from your eligibility as an employee as well as your desirability as a student. So they fudge numbers, they get less Asians in, and they get a more diverse student body, which means the school can offer a more diverse set of students to employers and can get them nice recruitment contracts because their students offered are of a higher quality.
The only times that grades matter in school is if you want to get into grad studies (med school, law school, Masters degree, etc...) and even then, once you are in, everything after that depends on your social skills.
A more sociable doctor is less likely to be sued
A more charismatic lawyer is more likely to win their case
A more confident business person is more likely to seal a deal
Knowledge is only part of the reason you go to university, the rest is to learn life skills to be a productive member of society. If you don't do both then you aren't as strong of a member of society as many other students that do get social skills as well as knowledge even if their CGPA is 30% lower than yours.
I mean heck for me, I'm a Finance student, 99.999999999% of everything I learn in University is 100% useless. Every formula they force me to memorize there is a computer program that does it. Is there any point in my life that I'm ever going to need to calculate a NPV, beta, CI, etc... by hand? Hell no. You learn it simply to say that you can.
The paper you come out with says "this person can learn stuffs" it doesn't matter how well you can memorize a text book, that is what intranets, the internet, and computer programs are for.
But if you cannot talk to another human being, if you cannot be sociable at a restaurant meeting, or at the bar/club after wards then you wont get very far...
On November 12 2010 04:41 Zorkmid wrote: I'd be curious to hear what Law Schools ask potential students about? Any law students doing interviews right now? 'Tis the season
Law schools don't do interviews. They only care about two things:
- LSAT - GPA (weighted by school, so an average GPA at Harvard/Princeton/Yale >> average GPA at some no-name school)
Sometimes they care a bit about any post-undergrad experience.
I don't know anyone with good marks who can't talk to people. Sometimes I think it's a myth that those people exist. In my experience people can have 90s and a social life of some kind, and be approachable and comfortable speaking to random people in and around school.
On November 12 2010 04:54 Insanious wrote: I think one of the bigger things to look at with university is that grades don't matter as long as you pass. If you pass with 55% or with 95% you still only have say a BCom(or BA or BCS, etc...) on your resume. The real question is did the 55% student do other things with high time at university? Work, Co-op, volunteering, student associations, clubs, sports, etc...
So what is happening is your having students who come to university, get 95% and leave with nothing else. This reflects poorly on the student (no employer is going to ask "so what grade did you get in ADM 1104?"), and it reflects poorly on the school.
How does it reflect poorly on the school? Well businesses recruit from schools (for example RBC exclusively recruits from the University of Ottawa), if a school cannot put out students that are both book smart and street smart then what use is that educational institution?
Its great and all to get 90's but if you have no social life, that detracts from your eligibility as an employee as well as your desirability as a student. So they fudge numbers, they get less Asians in, and they get a more diverse student body, which means the school can offer a more diverse set of students to employers and can get them nice recruitment contracts because their students offered are of a higher quality.
The only times that grades matter in school is if you want to get into grad studies (med school, law school, Masters degree, etc...) and even then, once you are in, everything after that depends on your social skills.
A more sociable doctor is less likely to be sued
A more charismatic lawyer is more likely to win their case
A more confident business person is more likely to seal a deal
Knowledge is only part of the reason you go to university, the rest is to learn life skills to be a productive member of society. If you don't do both then you aren't as strong of a member of society as many other students that do get social skills as well as knowledge even if their CGPA is 30% lower than yours.
I mean heck for me, I'm a Finance student, 99.999999999% of everything I learn in University is 100% useless. Every formula they force me to memorize there is a computer program that does it. Is there any point in my life that I'm ever going to need to calculate a NPV, beta, CI, etc... by hand? Hell no. You learn it simply to say that you can.
The paper you come out with says "this person can learn stuffs" it doesn't matter how well you can memorize a text book, that is what intranets, the internet, and computer programs are for.
But if you cannot talk to another human being, if you cannot be sociable at a restaurant meeting, or at the bar/club after wards then you wont get very far...
Actually I get asked a lot about my GPA and Engineering course marks when I was interviewing for graduate jobs. It is even more important to have good grades, if you are looking for co-op jobs as well unless you think you can compete without co-op or any work experience.
On November 12 2010 05:04 FishForThought wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On November 12 2010 04:54 Insanious wrote: I think one of the bigger things to look at with university is that grades don't matter as long as you pass. If you pass with 55% or with 95% you still only have say a BCom(or BA or BCS, etc...) on your resume. The real question is did the 55% student do other things with high time at university? Work, Co-op, volunteering, student associations, clubs, sports, etc...
So what is happening is your having students who come to university, get 95% and leave with nothing else. This reflects poorly on the student (no employer is going to ask "so what grade did you get in ADM 1104?"), and it reflects poorly on the school.
How does it reflect poorly on the school? Well businesses recruit from schools (for example RBC exclusively recruits from the University of Ottawa), if a school cannot put out students that are both book smart and street smart then what use is that educational institution?
Its great and all to get 90's but if you have no social life, that detracts from your eligibility as an employee as well as your desirability as a student. So they fudge numbers, they get less Asians in, and they get a more diverse student body, which means the school can offer a more diverse set of students to employers and can get them nice recruitment contracts because their students offered are of a higher quality.
The only times that grades matter in school is if you want to get into grad studies (med school, law school, Masters degree, etc...) and even then, once you are in, everything after that depends on your social skills.
A more sociable doctor is less likely to be sued
A more charismatic lawyer is more likely to win their case
A more confident business person is more likely to seal a deal
Knowledge is only part of the reason you go to university, the rest is to learn life skills to be a productive member of society. If you don't do both then you aren't as strong of a member of society as many other students that do get social skills as well as knowledge even if their CGPA is 30% lower than yours.
I mean heck for me, I'm a Finance student, 99.999999999% of everything I learn in University is 100% useless. Every formula they force me to memorize there is a computer program that does it. Is there any point in my life that I'm ever going to need to calculate a NPV, beta, CI, etc... by hand? Hell no. You learn it simply to say that you can.
The paper you come out with says "this person can learn stuffs" it doesn't matter how well you can memorize a text book, that is what intranets, the internet, and computer programs are for.
But if you cannot talk to another human being, if you cannot be sociable at a restaurant meeting, or at the bar/club after wards then you wont get very far...
Actually I get asked a lot about my GPA and Engineering course marks when I was interviewing for graduate jobs. It is even more important to have good grades, if you are looking for co-op jobs as well unless you think you can compete without co-op or any work experience.
I'm in co-op in my school. My grades are not amazing, but I still have a job and others do not simply because I have previous work experience and have social skills.
But ya grades are important if you choose to continue your academic career. But for example If i interview at say Investors Group as a financial assistant. They will never know my grades and will never ask them. So if I got a 55% or a 95% it doesn't really matter it will be based more off my co-op and previous work history, my extracurricular activities and how sociable I am.
Although I'm generalizing this, there are probably some fields that are different (I assume most things in the maths/sciences/engi departments might have some sort of a "what kind of grades did you get" but no commerce, arts, social studies, etc... positions will ask you what you got in university.
Actually thinking about it now... if I were to say be a sciences/engi/maths student and interview at say ALCan or Dupont they wont care what my grades are, they will care if I have any previous experience working in the field and who I know personally...
On November 12 2010 05:04 FishForThought wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On November 12 2010 04:54 Insanious wrote: I think one of the bigger things to look at with university is that grades don't matter as long as you pass. If you pass with 55% or with 95% you still only have say a BCom(or BA or BCS, etc...) on your resume. The real question is did the 55% student do other things with high time at university? Work, Co-op, volunteering, student associations, clubs, sports, etc...
So what is happening is your having students who come to university, get 95% and leave with nothing else. This reflects poorly on the student (no employer is going to ask "so what grade did you get in ADM 1104?"), and it reflects poorly on the school.
How does it reflect poorly on the school? Well businesses recruit from schools (for example RBC exclusively recruits from the University of Ottawa), if a school cannot put out students that are both book smart and street smart then what use is that educational institution?
Its great and all to get 90's but if you have no social life, that detracts from your eligibility as an employee as well as your desirability as a student. So they fudge numbers, they get less Asians in, and they get a more diverse student body, which means the school can offer a more diverse set of students to employers and can get them nice recruitment contracts because their students offered are of a higher quality.
The only times that grades matter in school is if you want to get into grad studies (med school, law school, Masters degree, etc...) and even then, once you are in, everything after that depends on your social skills.
A more sociable doctor is less likely to be sued
A more charismatic lawyer is more likely to win their case
A more confident business person is more likely to seal a deal
Knowledge is only part of the reason you go to university, the rest is to learn life skills to be a productive member of society. If you don't do both then you aren't as strong of a member of society as many other students that do get social skills as well as knowledge even if their CGPA is 30% lower than yours.
I mean heck for me, I'm a Finance student, 99.999999999% of everything I learn in University is 100% useless. Every formula they force me to memorize there is a computer program that does it. Is there any point in my life that I'm ever going to need to calculate a NPV, beta, CI, etc... by hand? Hell no. You learn it simply to say that you can.
The paper you come out with says "this person can learn stuffs" it doesn't matter how well you can memorize a text book, that is what intranets, the internet, and computer programs are for.
But if you cannot talk to another human being, if you cannot be sociable at a restaurant meeting, or at the bar/club after wards then you wont get very far...
Actually I get asked a lot about my GPA and Engineering course marks when I was interviewing for graduate jobs. It is even more important to have good grades, if you are looking for co-op jobs as well unless you think you can compete without co-op or any work experience.
I'm in co-op in my school. My grades are not amazing, but I still have a job and others do not simply because I have previous work experience and have social skills.
But ya grades are important if you choose to continue your academic career. But for example If i interview at say Investors Group as a financial assistant. They will never know my grades and will never ask them. So if I got a 55% or a 95% it doesn't really matter it will be based more off my co-op and previous work history, my extracurricular activities and how sociable I am.
Although I'm generalizing this, there are probably some fields that are different (I assume most things in the maths/sciences/engi departments might have some sort of a "what kind of grades did you get" but no commerce, arts, social studies, etc... positions will ask you what you got in university.
Actually thinking about it now... if I were to say be a sciences/engi/maths student and interview at say ALCan or Dupont they wont care what my grades are, they will care if I have any previous experience working in the field and who I know personally...
Yeah.. problem is that you probably don't have hands-on experience working in the field when you are fresh out of University, so the only thing they can look at are your course projects and they will definitely ask you how well you did on those courses.
Grades are not everything, but they certainly contribute to your competitiveness in the job market. Even if they don't ask you about your grades, if you can brag about them in an interview, it would give them more reasons to hire you.
I did my genetics undergrad at UofT, as well as a pharmacology masters. I'm Italian (white) and can tell you that asians are in no way "smarter" than the rest. While true that UofT houses a considerable asian student population, that says nothing about their intelligence. This is my personal impression based on 6 years at UofT: Asians are as intelligent as any other demographic. They may have a SLIGHTLY better work ethic, however, I have encountered enough asian slackers throughout my career to disprove this. I think the important thing to remember is that since Asians represent a larger population, there will inevitably be a larger proportion of them who are intelligent or have greater ethic. This in no way makes them "smarter" as a people, its just simple statistics.
My impression is that while some asians are quite intelligent and have great work ethic, they sometimes lack the stress-management or coping skills that are a necessity for many careers. For example, I started my life science degree with a predominantly asian student population all wanting to become physicians. Now that I am in med school, I have seen few asians among most Med classes. This could be explained by admission demographics on behalf of the universities, OR it could simply be fewer successful asian applicants.
I just want to point out that I am in no way prejudice towards asians or anything of the sort. Im just not fond of the mentality that many non-asian students have wherein they feel they will never be able to compete. It is not true. Success is determined on the individual basis, not by demographics. If you want to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, then chase that dream. Saying that you can't compete with asians is a cop-out.
On November 12 2010 06:44 Tempest186 wrote: This is crap...utter and complete crap.
I did my genetics undergrad at UofT, as well as a pharmacology masters. I'm Italian (white) and can tell you that asians are in no way "smarter" than the rest. While true that UofT houses a considerable asian student population, that says nothing about their intelligence. This is my personal impression based on 6 years at UofT: Asians are as intelligent as any other demographic. They may have a SLIGHTLY better work ethic, however, I have encountered enough asian slackers throughout my career to disprove this. I think the important thing to remember is that since Asians represent a larger population, there will inevitably be a larger proportion of them who are intelligent or have greater ethic. This in no way makes them "smarter" as a people, its just simple statistics.
My impression is that while some asians are quite intelligent and have great work ethic, they sometimes lack the stress-management or coping skills that are a necessity for many careers. For example, I started my life science degree with a predominantly asian student population all wanting to become physicians. Now that I am in med school, I have seen few asians among most Med classes. This could be explained by admission demographics on behalf of the universities, OR it could simply be fewer successful asian applicants.
I just want to point out that I am in no way prejudice towards asians or anything of the sort. Im just not fond of the mentality that many non-asian students have wherein they feel they will never be able to compete. It is not true. Success is determined on the individual basis, not by demographics. If you want to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, then chase that dream. Saying that you can't compete with asians is a cop-out.
I hope this helps, I'll welcome any discussion.
PEACE
Hmm I had to read your post a couple times to figure out your tone. It starts off rather antagonistic, but I can ignore that. I will agree with your last two sentences...but wow.
On November 12 2010 04:41 Zorkmid wrote: I'd be curious to hear what Law Schools ask potential students about? Any law students doing interviews right now? 'Tis the season
Law schools don't do interviews. They only care about two things:
- LSAT - GPA (weighted by school, so an average GPA at Harvard/Princeton/Yale >> average GPA at some no-name school)
Sometimes they care a bit about any post-undergrad experience.
GPA is not weighted by school, although they are slightly impressed by HPY. They do however give Engineering GPAs a very slight boost. This is how I got into a top10 law school with a bottom 5% undergrad gpa without being a beneficiary of affirmative action.
(being asian) I have to say that asian parents largely have no idea what they are doing these days. A large part of their emphasis on academics is driven by conformity (ie they are doing it because other asian parents are doing it, and no one wants to look like they have a 'dumb' kid), so they usually put little rational thought into this issue. Once the educational part of their children's life finishes (ie they graduate from university), a lot of these parents are at a loss as to how to relate to their kids.
A part of the issue for mainland Chinese is that the parents of people who are in university today had to go through the Cultural Revolution (in the 70s) where there was widespread anti-intellectualism (schools were closed and teachers were attacked). So the ironic fact is that a lot of these parents who push their kids to be academic are actually not that well educated themselves. So the situation you have is literally one where idiots are trying to force OTHER people to be "smart", and there are obviously inherent problems with this.
On November 12 2010 06:56 Mykill wrote: I'm at Waterloo. It's pretty Asian and being in Mathematics/Chartered Accountancy. It's SUPERAsian. 3 Caucasian's in the whole class of 70ish kids.
That's because it's Waterloo though. The only people there are Asians or nerdy white guys. The demographics differ really wildly sometimes within the universities in Ontario.
my parents are white as shit and never pushed me. It took me literally 20 years to get my shit together and start acting like I cared, and in the end it payed off. I guess.
I think I have mentioned this in another thread, but my program is more than half Chinese citizens. Many others are from South Korea. I don't mind it that much, except it sure would be nice if it wasnt so cliquish.
Anyway, my personal observation is that most of the students in the program (which is a top 25 graduate program) who are foreign residents of south east asian countries have little in the way of personality or individuality. I want to say that I think this is not at all a race issue, because the "americanized" asian students do not suffer from this same problem nearly as much.
I try very hard to be open and talk with these students but often they will let you talk at them for 10 or 15 minutes at a time with no replies longer than a few words no matter how much you invite them to talk.
When we had the big department meet and greet, I had to ask people where they were from, what they thought of the city, did they like the food, what were their expectations constantly and it was a fight to get anything out of them.
I have to say that to me life is about learning but studying is not the same thing as learning. There are many, many things to learn and I think one day a lot of these kids will wake up and realize they havent really learned anything important. I know I havent, and Ive spent my time learning about things I actually like and care about instead of sitting in the library studying for a stupid exam.
On November 12 2010 06:44 Tempest186 wrote: This is crap...utter and complete crap.
I did my genetics undergrad at UofT, as well as a pharmacology masters. I'm Italian (white) and can tell you that asians are in no way "smarter" than the rest. While true that UofT houses a considerable asian student population, that says nothing about their intelligence. This is my personal impression based on 6 years at UofT: Asians are as intelligent as any other demographic. They may have a SLIGHTLY better work ethic, however, I have encountered enough asian slackers throughout my career to disprove this. I think the important thing to remember is that since Asians represent a larger population, there will inevitably be a larger proportion of them who are intelligent or have greater ethic. This in no way makes them "smarter" as a people, its just simple statistics.
My impression is that while some asians are quite intelligent and have great work ethic, they sometimes lack the stress-management or coping skills that are a necessity for many careers. For example, I started my life science degree with a predominantly asian student population all wanting to become physicians. Now that I am in med school, I have seen few asians among most Med classes. This could be explained by admission demographics on behalf of the universities, OR it could simply be fewer successful asian applicants.
I just want to point out that I am in no way prejudice towards asians or anything of the sort. Im just not fond of the mentality that many non-asian students have wherein they feel they will never be able to compete. It is not true. Success is determined on the individual basis, not by demographics. If you want to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, then chase that dream. Saying that you can't compete with asians is a cop-out.
This quote pretty much sums up that article; "... many white students simply believe that competing with Asians—both Asian Canadians and international students—requires a sacrifice of time and freedom they’re not willing to make. They complain that they can’t compete for spots in the best schools and can’t party as much as they’d like". I do have to say though, my pharmacy course is pretty much 90%+ Asian.
the problem is that grades are definitely NOT the best evaluation of the quality of the students. There are many other intangible qualities, but none of those can be measured in a fair/unbiased fashion. So as a result grade ends up being the predominant metric and it is so easy to get good grades if you have the slightest idea how to study. Asians have the grade thing figured out back to front. Dunno about other countries, China has it figured out.
Let me make an example: I was sent back to China over one summer of 2006? To study for the SAT. Now why would I study SAT in China? Because there's this school in China, called "New Oriental" which destroys all U.S. college entrance tests. They have instructors who purposefully take the GRE multiple times, failing them, just to memorize the exam questions. There is an entire floor worth of library devoted to the standardized tests. The school hosts many cases, from TOFL to LSAT, with a very centralized goal of getting its students into the top U.S. schools.
So as a culture, we understands how the tests are being done, we know how to get good grades. That being said, Chinese are no better at theory nor practice nor anything, its just they get good grades.
This problem is worse in China, where all the Chinese top universities admission is taken up by people who only knew how to take tests, but does not know how to do anything else.
On November 12 2010 11:58 evanthebouncy! wrote: the problem is that grades are definitely NOT the best evaluation of the quality of the students. There are many other intangible qualities, but none of those can be measured in a fair/unbiased fashion. So as a result grade ends up being the predominant metric and it is so easy to get good grades if you have the slightest idea how to study. Asians have the grade thing figured out back to front. Dunno about other countries, China has it figured out.
Let me make an example: I was sent back to China over one summer of 2006? To study for the SAT. Now why would I study SAT in China? Because there's this school in China, called "New Oriental" which destroys all U.S. college entrance tests. They have instructors who purposefully take the GRE multiple times, failing them, just to memorize the exam questions. There is an entire floor worth of library devoted to the standardized tests. The school hosts many cases, from TOFL to LSAT, with a very centralized goal of getting its students into the top U.S. schools.
So as a culture, we understands how the tests are being done, we know how to get good grades. That being said, Chinese are no better at theory nor practice nor anything, its just they get good grades.
This problem is worse in China, where all the Chinese top universities admission is taken up by people who only knew how to take tests, but does not know how to do anything else.
Sad, really.
Very doubtful about this. We are not talking about China, and I do not know one Asian person who has spent a significant amount of time in the west who does this. Have you never considered that if this was true, they'd drop out of said universities very quickly?
Even assuming it is true, it would be the fault of the universities. This is like having an unstoppable 6pool in SC2, and when all the Koreans start 6pooling saying that all Koreans know how to do is 6pool.
All I have to say is that anyone who thinks or says that Asians never party or club or drink and only study... know no Asians.
I am Asian-American. The vast majority of my friends are either fobs or Asian-Americans. I have friends who only party/drink. I have friends that never party/drink. I have friends that study and party/drink. It's just the same as every other race.
Also, U of T is not a social life killer; just manage your time well.
really? which stream you in? if you're in ENG SCI, MECH ENG or ECE ENG, you will not have time for social life.
and anyways, i forgot to mention. universities like UBC shoot asian kids down. you need like a B in grade 12 english or toefl or other really good english qualifications, or to get 30/40 on this english essay test.
i got 26/40 on that test, so i declined to go to UBC and went to UofT
“At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”
This is the most level-headed thing in the whole article and it's spot-on.
It could also mean that
???? Her son failed to do good enough in high school so he was able to get a job.
They could always go to a college and transfer later or even in their final year and it'll show as getting a degree from said university...
I think you might have completely misunderstood me. That kid worked hard for what he did and the other parent assumed it was because of his race. I was talking about the "but fuck, I worked hard for it" being level-headed. The white mother's fucking retarded to go up to some random asian KID and tell him he's the cause of her problems.
On November 12 2010 12:45 vOdToasT wrote: So asians are, on average, better students than the lazy ass white americans.
OH NO!!!!! FUCKING ASIANS, THEY TOOK 'R SPOTS!!!
If this isn't racism, I don't know what is.
Getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I know from personal experience that many Asians at the schools I've attended are shy, emotionally suppressive, and cocky when it comes to academic competitions.
People, you're going to be the best at whatever your time is invested in. If you spend all your time doing homework and studying, then that means you spent none of your time developing other skills.
There's a reason why America is one of the most powerful nations in the world, and why many desire to live here. You think whites are lazy? All of our founding fathers were white. Don't try and give me any shit about how America isn't "only white", and how it's success is because of its diverse racial mix...it isn't. According to Wiki's demographics for the US, white people make up 78.4% of the population. The rest of the percentages are split up between African American, Asian, Indian, and many others.
Consider this : Many countries have to build walls to keep people IN. The USA has to build walls to keep people OUT. You KNOW what I'm talking about. Illegal immigration is a huge issue over here as of right now.
Anyone hating on my country has no justifiable right to. Jealous bastards.
I think that schools shouldn't recruit students internationally. These traditional Chinese immigrants are only going to take these skills back with them, create a China-centric prejudice in the business world, and probably try to get a job in China or other developing country for an international corporation.
This is where wage workers get paid equivelent to 100 dollars a month working 40 hours a day.
It's anti Chinese in reality, to support this cannibalistic, oppressive system. We should allow them to make a living for themselves.
It's neo-fuedalism, with the fuedal overlords bartering the labor of the infitessimally poor serfs below them. China needs a change.
It really talks to you when people like Savior decline visitng China for the Olympics because of human rights. Sure we have alot of things we need to do as well, Americans and Westerners are just as complicit in the abuse of the poor workers as the regional overlords and business leaders.
The hilarious part is 2 years ago they were complaining about too many girls dominating the sats and flooding some courses with some universitys having lower entrance scores for men. Now they complain that theres too many asians in the system. So they raise it?
On November 12 2010 12:45 vOdToasT wrote: So asians are, on average, better students than the lazy ass white americans.
OH NO!!!!! FUCKING ASIANS, THEY TOOK 'R SPOTS!!!
If this isn't racism, I don't know what is.
Getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I know from personal experience that many Asians at the schools I've attended are shy, emotionally suppressive, and cocky when it comes to academic competitions.
People, you're going to be the best at whatever your time is invested in. If you spend all your time doing homework and studying, then that means you spent none of your time developing other skills.
There's a reason why America is one of the most powerful nations in the world, and why many desire to live here. You think whites are lazy? All of our founding fathers were white. Don't try and give me any shit about how America isn't "only white", and how it's success is because of its diverse racial mix...it isn't. According to Wiki's demographics for the US, white people make up 78.4% of the population. The rest of the percentages are split up between African American, Asian, Indian, and many others.
Consider this : Many countries have to build walls to keep people IN. The USA has to build walls to keep people OUT. You KNOW what I'm talking about. Illegal immigration is a huge issue over here as of right now.
Anyone hating on my country has no justifiable right to. Jealous bastards.
Yeah I'm really jealous that the majority of white people in the states have been brainwashed into believing in a magic man in the sky, believe that all life on earth just magically appeared because of god and are dumb enough to take fox news seriously enough to make it the most watched news station. Yeah, real jealous...
Getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I know from personal experience that many Asians at the schools I've attended are shy, emotionally suppressive, and cocky when it comes to academic competitions.
Okay, I don't see why many people say getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I'm Asian, I am getting pretty good grades in university and I still go out Fridays and Saturdays. Sure, I don't get completely wasted like the the rest of my friends, both white and Asian...but it doesn't mean I can't socially interact with other people. Yeah there are a lot of Asians who can't interact socially with other people but you know what? There are a ton of white people who can't either! A Caucasian friend of mine who's completely brilliant did nothing but solve math problems during our prom. Apparently, this isn't as big of an issue compared to some Asian who is too shy to talk at a social gathering.
Also, U of T is not a social life killer; just manage your time well.
really? which stream you in? if you're in ENG SCI, MECH ENG or ECE ENG, you will not have time for social life.
and anyways, i forgot to mention. universities like UBC shoot asian kids down. you need like a B in grade 12 english or toefl or other really good english qualifications, or to get 30/40 on this english essay test.
i got 26/40 on that test, so i declined to go to UBC and went to UofT
You seriously think a B in english 12 is hard to get? How is requiring students to have a basic level of english profiency = shooting asian kids down? Have you been to UBC? I go there, and there's a shitton of asians. In science, I'd say 2/3 are asian. In my program, asians are 80%+.
On November 12 2010 14:33 EndlessRain wrote: Yeah I'm really jealous that the majority of white people in the states have been brainwashed into believing in a magic man in the sky, believe that all life on earth just magically appeared because of god and are dumb enough to take fox news seriously enough to make it the most watched news station. Yeah, real jealous...
Oh, like Americas' the only country that supports religion? How convenient of you to forget about Arab countries (Mohammed), Indians (Hindu), Buddhists, and many, many more.
I don't watch Fox news. Fucking moot point you have there.
Getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I know from personal experience that many Asians at the schools I've attended are shy, emotionally suppressive, and cocky when it comes to academic competitions.
Okay, I don't see why many people say getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I'm Asian, I am getting pretty good grades in university and I still go out Fridays and Saturdays. Sure, I don't get completely wasted like the the rest of my friends, both white and Asian...but it doesn't mean I can't socially interact with other people. Yeah there are a lot of Asians who can't interact socially with other people but you know what? There are a ton of white people who can't either! A Caucasian friend of mine who's completely brilliant did nothing but solve math problems during our prom. Apparently, this isn't as big of an issue compared to some Asian who is too shy to talk at a social gathering.
Because, like I said in my post, spending all your time studying means not spending all your time interacting. Ever hear of the concept of a trade-off?
Getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I know from personal experience that many Asians at the schools I've attended are shy, emotionally suppressive, and cocky when it comes to academic competitions.
Okay, I don't see why many people say getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I'm Asian, I am getting pretty good grades in university and I still go out Fridays and Saturdays. Sure, I don't get completely wasted like the the rest of my friends, both white and Asian...but it doesn't mean I can't socially interact with other people. Yeah there are a lot of Asians who can't interact socially with other people but you know what? There are a ton of white people who can't either! A Caucasian friend of mine who's completely brilliant did nothing but solve math problems during our prom. Apparently, this isn't as big of an issue compared to some Asian who is too shy to talk at a social gathering.
Because, like I said in my post, spending all your time studying means not spending all your time interacting. Ever hear of the concept of a trade-off?
Ever heard of a euphemism? Not everyone spends ALL their time studying. Yeah there are the extremes who study in the library 24/7 while taking like 3 minute breaks to inhale their food and rush back to studying. But there are also people who compromise and allot a percentage of time for studying and partying.
On November 12 2010 12:45 vOdToasT wrote: So asians are, on average, better students than the lazy ass white americans.
OH NO!!!!! FUCKING ASIANS, THEY TOOK 'R SPOTS!!!
If this isn't racism, I don't know what is.
Also, unless I'm the only one who found his post sarcastic (which I'm not btw, my roommate just told me it's a South Park reference)... does this mean you are Romanian ?
On November 12 2010 12:45 vOdToasT wrote: So asians are, on average, better students than the lazy ass white americans.
OH NO!!!!! FUCKING ASIANS, THEY TOOK 'R SPOTS!!!
If this isn't racism, I don't know what is.
Getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I know from personal experience that many Asians at the schools I've attended are shy, emotionally suppressive, and cocky when it comes to academic competitions.
People, you're going to be the best at whatever your time is invested in. If you spend all your time doing homework and studying, then that means you spent none of your time developing other skills.
There's a reason why America is one of the most powerful nations in the world, and why many desire to live here. You think whites are lazy? All of our founding fathers were white. Don't try and give me any shit about how America isn't "only white", and how it's success is because of its diverse racial mix...it isn't. According to Wiki's demographics for the US, white people make up 78.4% of the population. The rest of the percentages are split up between African American, Asian, Indian, and many others.
Consider this : Many countries have to build walls to keep people IN. The USA has to build walls to keep people OUT. You KNOW what I'm talking about. Illegal immigration is a huge issue over here as of right now.
Anyone hating on my country has no justifiable right to. Jealous bastards.
Where do you live? I'm from Hawaii and the majority of our population is asian (over 50%) and we have just as many well-adjusted and socially apt kids who get good grades as anywhere else. Your generalization of a couple of asian introverts to the entire asian population is quite offensive to me as a completely normal (but still asian) person. Like there's never been a nerdy white kid in your life? Think about it in a bigger context please.
On November 12 2010 14:33 EndlessRain wrote: Yeah I'm really jealous that the majority of white people in the states have been brainwashed into believing in a magic man in the sky, believe that all life on earth just magically appeared because of god and are dumb enough to take fox news seriously enough to make it the most watched news station. Yeah, real jealous...
Oh, like Americas' the only country that supports religion? How convenient of you to forget about Arab countries (Mohammed), Indians (Hindu), Buddhists, and many, many more.
I don't watch Fox news. Fucking moot point you have there.
Yeah and I think all the Arab countries are full of brainwashed people too.
How is it a moot point? I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking the people in your country. And fox news is the most watched news station by far in the united states.
On November 12 2010 14:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Where do you live? I'm from Hawaii and the majority of our population is asian (over 50%) and we have just as many well-adjusted and socially apt kids who get good grades as anywhere else.
According to you, you're surrounded by mostly Asians. How are you going to know the difference?
Your generalization of a couple of asian introverts to the entire asian population is quite offensive to me as a completely normal (but still asian) person. Like there's never been a nerdy white kid in your life? Think about it in a bigger context please.
I don't live in Hawaii, and I was speaking from personal experience (like I said in my post).
Getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I know from personal experience that many Asians at the schools I've attended are shy, emotionally suppressive, and cocky when it comes to academic competitions.
Okay, I don't see why many people say getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I'm Asian, I am getting pretty good grades in university and I still go out Fridays and Saturdays. Sure, I don't get completely wasted like the the rest of my friends, both white and Asian...but it doesn't mean I can't socially interact with other people. Yeah there are a lot of Asians who can't interact socially with other people but you know what? There are a ton of white people who can't either! A Caucasian friend of mine who's completely brilliant did nothing but solve math problems during our prom. Apparently, this isn't as big of an issue compared to some Asian who is too shy to talk at a social gathering.
Because, like I said in my post, spending all your time studying means not spending all your time interacting. Ever hear of the concept of a trade-off?
This is the problem, you automatically assume that everyone who got good grades had to spend all their time studying hard for it. The students who got the best grades when I was in university were the people who barely even studied because they internalized the concepts to the point where they understood them and then stopped, while the majority of the 60%-90% students did the "time spent=effectiveness of study" route and ended up with perfectly mediocre grades.
On November 12 2010 14:58 EndlessRain wrote: Yeah and I think all the Arab countries are full of brainwashed people too.
Then you're free to think whatever you want. Doesn't make it true.
How is it a moot point? I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking the people in your country. And fox news is the most watched news station by far in the united states.
Because I LIVE in that country you're talking about. I'M ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.
Also, U of T is not a social life killer; just manage your time well.
really? which stream you in? if you're in ENG SCI, MECH ENG or ECE ENG, you will not have time for social life.
and anyways, i forgot to mention. universities like UBC shoot asian kids down. you need like a B in grade 12 english or toefl or other really good english qualifications, or to get 30/40 on this english essay test.
i got 26/40 on that test, so i declined to go to UBC and went to UofT
You seriously think a B in english 12 is hard to get? How is requiring students to have a basic level of english profiency = shooting asian kids down? Have you been to UBC? I go there, and there's a shitton of asians. In science, I'd say 2/3 are asian. In my program, asians are 80%+.
uh.. UofT only required a C in grade 11 english, so comparatively yeah, UBC has high english standards. I had a B, and I could say confidently that my english was better than 95% of the other asians in my year in high school. But then again, there are some crazy asians that can learn english from scratch within 6 months
At UofT, i'd say 1/4 of my program (mechanical engineering) were white kids, another 1/4 would be arabs and the other half would be chinese/korean. In arts and science programs, white kids are 95%.
How is it a moot point? I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking the people in your country. And fox news is the most watched news station by far in the united states.
Because I LIVE in that country you're talking about. I'M ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.
Are you retarded? Do you think the fact that you don't watch fox news somehow disproves the fact that fox news is the most watched news station in the united states?
person A: Hey man, sc2 is the most played strategy game right now. person B: well I play civ4 so your point is moot!! lolol
that's basically what you sound like right now.
Anyways, that's my last post on this subject, too much thread derail.
On November 12 2010 14:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Where do you live? I'm from Hawaii and the majority of our population is asian (over 50%) and we have just as many well-adjusted and socially apt kids who get good grades as anywhere else.
According to you, you're surrounded by mostly Asians. How are you going to know the difference?
Your generalization of a couple of asian introverts to the entire asian population is quite offensive to me as a completely normal (but still asian) person. Like there's never been a nerdy white kid in your life? Think about it in a bigger context please.
I don't live in Hawaii, and I was speaking from personal experience (like I said in my post).
I've lived in many places over the US in my lifetime and in other countries like Japan. Currently I'm in Korea teaching English. I can clearly see the differences and similarities between school in Hawaii and school in, for example, Oregon. Regardless of the demographic, we have well-adjusted and socially inept kids and they're basically evenly spread through the population based on demographics. I've known a lot of nerdy white kids in my life but I don't think that all white kids are nerdy. I've known a lot of smart asians who study hard in my life but I don't automatically assume that all asians are incapable of socializing or spend all their time studying. What I have noticed is that the ones that get good marks and are successful are GENERALLY quite apt at socializing. Of course you have the one introverted dude who sits in the back and has no social skills but that has nothing to do with their race. It's sad that the asians in your... state? suck so much. Come to Hawaii, meet some cool asians, change your perspective.
Although this article is incredibly skewed it makes me a little bit sad.
Because it reminds me of my friend (and yes hes Asian) currently we are both in grade 12. We have been good friends since grade 7 but as the school years progress we grew further and further apart not because of changing personalities but increasing importance of the school work. While I (and my parents) were satisfied with an 80 average, his were not. After grade 9 when his average was something like 86 he basically lost all of his social life because of pressure at home. He was put on suicide watch nearing the end of the grade 11 school year. Right now he is averaging a 97%, but he can't come out to the LAN parties my other friends put together and can't go to FNM and has no time to build or play any magic. It is especially so now as this is grade 12 before he could come out to the odd few but now between him maintaining a 97+ average, his martial arts, his piano lessons, and his parents insisting he graduates with 150+ credits. He has not been able to hang out with us since summer, and the course load right now in classes is only moderate, I can only guess as to what will happen come this may when finals prep is crammed down our throats. It really makes me sad. There is also a lot of pressure coming from the teachers as well, each of them insisting each course should get it's own 90 minute study period a night plus homework.
There is only 24 hrs in a day; generally people need to sleep 6-8 of them. And to see some people max out in studying and forced extra curricular, leaving them no time to socialize, whether it be a LAN party, a kegger, or whatever your preferred method of socialization, is sad. For the most part people aren't machines and one is forced to be one it is sad.
Of course this is just one Asian child in the world of many, but I think the point of this article should be that kids should be taught balance.
EDIT: Societies, parents and children alike should be taught balance.
I mean my big thing is that assuming all asians are nerdy geniuses incapable of socializing because they spend all their time studying is pretty much the same thing as assuming all black men are violent crack-smoking felons or that all white people are rich prejudiced jackasses.
On November 12 2010 14:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Where do you live? I'm from Hawaii and the majority of our population is asian (over 50%) and we have just as many well-adjusted and socially apt kids who get good grades as anywhere else.
According to you, you're surrounded by mostly Asians. How are you going to know the difference?
Your generalization of a couple of asian introverts to the entire asian population is quite offensive to me as a completely normal (but still asian) person. Like there's never been a nerdy white kid in your life? Think about it in a bigger context please.
I don't live in Hawaii, and I was speaking from personal experience (like I said in my post).
I've lived in many places over the US in my lifetime and in other countries like Japan. Currently I'm in Korea teaching English. I can clearly see the differences and similarities between school in Hawaii and school in, for example, Oregon. Regardless of the demographic, we have well-adjusted and socially inept kids and they're basically evenly spread through the population based on demographics. I've known a lot of nerdy white kids in my life but I don't think that all white kids are nerdy. I've known a lot of smart asians who study hard in my life but I don't automatically assume that all asians are incapable of socializing or spend all their time studying. What I have noticed is that the ones that get good marks and are successful are GENERALLY quite apt at socializing. Of course you have the one introverted dude who sits in the back and has no social skills but that has nothing to do with their race. It's sad that the asians in your... state? suck so much. Come to Hawaii, meet some cool asians, change your perspective.
the asian community knit tightly. the less intelligent asians are usually more active, and will always aim to socialise with the more intelligent asians for learning advantages, and the more intelligent asians, who are usually more introvert, will accept these friendships.
most of the asians in my program mech eng is pretty introvert toward the white guys in our class; they are uncomfortable in approaching these guys but then again the white guys are also uncomfortable approaching the asians; its harder for asians to notice since *everything* revolves around the perspective on a white guy
On November 12 2010 15:07 EndlessRain wrote: Are you retarded? Do you think the fact that you don't watch fox news somehow disproves the fact that fox news is the most watched news station in the united states?
Does the fact that it's the most watched news station make it relevant to anything? People could be watching it for the sports and weather, for all you know. And even if IT DID influence people's ideas about their country, then it's not the stations fault, it's their own damn fault for choosing to believe anything the station might tell them.
On November 12 2010 15:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I mean my big thing is that assuming all asians are nerdy geniuses incapable of socializing because they spend all their time studying is pretty much the same thing as assuming all black men are violent crack-smoking felons or that all white people are rich prejudiced jackasses.
So... stereotypes. The fact remains that there's truth in stereotypes, but of course they become an issue when people actually believe that stereotypes apply to all people.
On November 12 2010 14:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Also getting good grades absolutely does NOT cost anything.
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You actually believe yourself?
Are you effectively insinuating that because I spend all my time playing SC2, the good grade I get... doesn't exist?
Also, you seem to forget that some people are actually, you know, intelligent. An attribute you seem to be lacking, good sir.
PFFT It's true, the good grade you get.. wait..what good grade?
Also, getting good grades does not cost your social life. Many people take courses they are interested and good at in university. This usually results in achieving well and taking less time to do so.
ACROSS the United States, at elite private and public universities, Asian enrollment is near an all-time high. Asian-Americans make up less than 5 percent of the population but typically make up 10 to 30 percent of students at the nation’s best colleges:in 2005, the last year with across-the-board numbers, Asians made up 24 percent of the undergraduate population at Carnegie Mellon and at Stanford, 27 percent at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 14 percent at Yale and 13 percent at Princeton.
And according to advocates of race-neutral admissions policies, those numbers should be even higher.
And Asian-Americans are many times more likely than other groups to graduate at the top of their high-school classes. At Cal, many Asian-American students attribute their academic success to family pressure and, in some cases, an immigrant mind-set. "There's such a push to succeed," says Marian Liu, a fifth-year student at Cal whose father was a Chinese immigrant. Ward Connerly, a UC regent who is one of the most vocal opponents of affirmative action, says that before 209, Asian-American students were discriminated against. "There was this fear that without the use of race, the whole campus would become Asian," he says.
btw, I'm a first gen Asian American like so many of these students. I'm proud of us guys and gals. And I hate Cal I went to Stanford
This reminds me alot of my highschool. I live in perth australia and attended a high ranking public school. It even won australian school of the year awhile back so it was a great school! But while attending this school i noticed a few things. 1. Because this school was a public school with a very promising standard lots of asian parents were sending their kids there. Because it was a good school. 2. Because all of the asian parents were buying into the area and sending their kids there this started a circle. the school itself was a shithole. There was nothing in the way of classrooms. Over half of them were "demountables" or portable classrooms that were meant for a use of 3years, 10years ago. While all these asian kids were still pouring in, their parents forced them to study extremely hard. in order to get a good grade and do medicine at university. This pressure meant that we had alot of very high achieveing kids, which then meant that the school was known as a high achieveing school. Which leads to more people attending.
Another example of the "asian-white" demographic was evident at this school. There was no racism from the white people to the asians. But often there would be racism the other way, in the forms of calling us "ghosts" or swearing at us in chinese. I am a non-racist white person and if i come across as racist it is due to my poor writing skills.
Racism can go both ways and although i am a trusting nice person. It has become very hard for me to socialize with chinese born people because of those experiences.
On November 12 2010 14:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Also getting good grades absolutely does NOT cost anything.
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You actually believe yourself?
Are you effectively insinuating that because I spend all my time playing SC2, the good grade I get... doesn't exist?
Also, you seem to forget that some people are actually, you know, intelligent. An attribute you seem to be lacking, good sir.
you korean? because koreans are effectively the only race of people that can play computer games all day and still get a gpa of 4.0
Korean at heart.
On-topic: The article is very interesting. Yes, there are groups of antisocial asian students at most every good school. Is there a problem with that? No.
a) The main desire an institute of higher learning is not just to educate, but to have graduates who become extraordinary figures in society, so that the reputation of the university is improved by their association with these people.
The primary motivation of an admittance office is to identify the people who have the innate talent to become the movers and shakers of society.
b) Historically, the main method that has been used to identify those with the potential to become an extraordinary figure is through the traditional admittance process - standardized test scores, past academic performance, and analysis of "intangibles" that translate into displays of independent thought and leadership qualities.
c) Race, ethnicity, or gender do not equate with the innate potential to become an extraordinary figure. All people are equally likely to possess the potential to become an extraordinary figure.
d) This identification process has been so thoroughly mapped out that parents of children who desire to see them admitted into top-flight universities push their children into "emulating" this potential, whether or not the child may or may not possess the innate desire or abilities of an extraordinary individual.
e) Asian cultures traditionally hold certain values higher than Western Cultures, and Western Cultures traditionally hold certain values higher than Asian cultures.
f) The values of Asian cultures contribute to a systematic increase in "measured" potential among children raised with those values using traditional methods of identification - standardized tests, academic GPA, and "intangibles" which supposedly reflect independent thought and leadership.
g) This systematic increase in measured potential to become an extraordinary figure does not correlate with actual potential to become an extraordinary figure. (see postulate c)
f) Therefore, the measurement system is flawed.
h) A new system of measurement being yet unproven or unfeasible due to the scale of university education, admissions officers must attempt to "correct" for this error, or suffer reduced efficiency in identifying future extraordinary figures.
On November 12 2010 14:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Where do you live? I'm from Hawaii and the majority of our population is asian (over 50%) and we have just as many well-adjusted and socially apt kids who get good grades as anywhere else.
According to you, you're surrounded by mostly Asians. How are you going to know the difference?
Pathetic. This means that you believe that different races innately have different levels of social intelligence. It doesnt matter if theyre White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, or whatever. If someone is shy, reclusive, and/or makes awkward comments whenever he or she speaks, THAT is what makes them socially inept. You dont have to be of a particular race to be able to see when someone is lackin in social skills. But for some reason, because ZERG_RUSSIAN lives in a community where Asians are the majority, that means their Asian social ineptitude is the norm for social interaction and that he can't tell the difference? Thats ridiculous.
On November 12 2010 14:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Also getting good grades absolutely does NOT cost anything.
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You actually believe yourself?
User was temp banned for this post.
I stated it before, Ill state it again. I currently have 3.7 in my graduate accounting degree. Its no 4.0 but I consider that pretty good. In my free time, i bboy with friends, lift weights on those off days. On weekends, I go out to bars or clubs with my friends, or house parties when theres somethin goin down. I have friends who, like me, are Asian who have comparable or better grades, are at least as athletic and at least as social. I know white people who have great grades and are very social people.
I think this "Asians only have good grades because they sacrifice social abilities" is a stupid rationalization by lazy/jealous people. I hate calling people jealous because usually its not true, but there is just so much evidence showing that Good Grades does not automatically lead to Bad Social Skills that it leads me to believe that people who continue to propagate this idea are those people who dont get good grades and want to feel better about themselves.
I'd say that the more you study the less chance is it that your grades reflects what you have understood/learned. According to that it would be good to discriminate against those who studies harder but gets the same grades, but since there is no way to check that they invented all the other checks. Also since Asians on average studies harder they also gets hit by this.
You want people who are creative and understands what they are doing. Academia isn't about working hard even though many seems to think so. The only reason grades are used is because there is no better metric even though it have quite bad correlation with qualities you want from students mainly because some commits way too much time for it.
On November 12 2010 14:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Also getting good grades absolutely does NOT cost anything.
Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You actually believe yourself?
User was temp banned for this post.
I stated it before, Ill state it again. I currently have 3.7 in my graduate accounting degree. Its no 4.0 but I consider that pretty good. In my free time, i bboy with friends, lift weights on those off days. On weekends, I go out to bars or clubs with my friends, or house parties when theres somethin goin down. I have friends who, like me, are Asian who have comparable or better grades, are at least as athletic and at least as social. I know white people who have great grades and are very social people.
I think this "Asians only have good grades because they sacrifice social abilities" is a stupid rationalization by lazy/jealous people. I hate calling people jealous because usually its not true, but there is just so much evidence showing that Good Grades does not automatically lead to Bad Social Skills that it leads me to believe that people who continue to propagate this idea are those people who dont get good grades and want to feel better about themselves.
Correct, but I think he meant out of the perspective of a single person. For a person to get higher grades he generally needs to spend more time with it and thus needs to do less other things. It isn't true when you compare two different persons but I don't think that it is what he was talking about.
It's all a matter of culture. In asia it's quite common for parents to pressure and force their kids to study extremely hard.
In america and I imagine similarly in canada there isn't as much pressure like that.
Obviously if one culture forces people to study more, those people will be more well-studied. And may do better in academics.
But studying hard and getting good grades is not a sign of intellect, so I hope this thread doesn't deteriorate into that.
The true genius is the one that studies minimally and still is able to understand and apply everything they learn. And it doesn't really matter what background you come from, you either got that or you don't.
On November 12 2010 11:58 evanthebouncy! wrote: the problem is that grades are definitely NOT the best evaluation of the quality of the students. There are many other intangible qualities, but none of those can be measured in a fair/unbiased fashion. So as a result grade ends up being the predominant metric and it is so easy to get good grades if you have the slightest idea how to study. Asians have the grade thing figured out back to front. Dunno about other countries, China has it figured out.
Let me make an example: I was sent back to China over one summer of 2006? To study for the SAT. Now why would I study SAT in China? Because there's this school in China, called "New Oriental" which destroys all U.S. college entrance tests. They have instructors who purposefully take the GRE multiple times, failing them, just to memorize the exam questions. There is an entire floor worth of library devoted to the standardized tests. The school hosts many cases, from TOFL to LSAT, with a very centralized goal of getting its students into the top U.S. schools.
So as a culture, we understands how the tests are being done, we know how to get good grades. That being said, Chinese are no better at theory nor practice nor anything, its just they get good grades.
This problem is worse in China, where all the Chinese top universities admission is taken up by people who only knew how to take tests, but does not know how to do anything else.
Sad, really.
Very doubtful about this. We are not talking about China, and I do not know one Asian person who has spent a significant amount of time in the west who does this. Have you never considered that if this was true, they'd drop out of said universities very quickly?
Even assuming it is true, it would be the fault of the universities. This is like having an unstoppable 6pool in SC2, and when all the Koreans start 6pooling saying that all Koreans know how to do is 6pool.
I am not saying the point he makes is correct or anything, but schools that train students to pass standardized tests are pretty common in both China and Vietnam. There are also schools that took gifted students and train them into what my dad likes to call "fighting peacocks" (basically specialist in the subjects that they're gifted at, usually just 1 or 2) to compete with other schools, and those kids basically have nothing else besides their specialties. Schools don't drop them because they're pretty much academic athletes.
And raw grades are pretty important over there btw, which may explain why no Asian parents (especially the 1st gen. or those who never go to college in the West) like to see anything below a 3.8 in their kids' transcripts. My mom was like that before she went nursing school, and now she wants me to have a social activity in school as well as a 3.8 - 4.0 GPA. FML.
I do agree with you in that i don't see any other Asians in the west doing this either (me included). Most I've seen are pretty well rounded and socialized.
On November 12 2010 16:32 Klockan3 wrote: Academia isn't about working hard even though many seems to think so.
even though this is somewhat offtopic, i'm really troubled by this approach to academia. regardless of whether you're a genius or not, you'll always be more successful if you work hard.
i've noticed that some people find some sort of value in getting good grades without studying, as if achieving through less effort is somehow more admirable than achieving through a lot of effort. i have to say that in any sort of competitive environment most of those that think this way will be outdone.
On November 12 2010 16:32 Klockan3 wrote: Academia isn't about working hard even though many seems to think so.
even though this is somewhat offtopic, i'm really troubled by this approach to academia. regardless of whether you're a genius or not, you'll always be more successful if you work hard.
i've noticed that some people find some sort of value in getting good grades without studying, as if achieving through less effort is somehow more admirable than achieving through a lot of effort. i have to say that in any sort of competition most of those that think this way will be outdone.
It's not that it is more admirable one way or the other, it's a matter of efficiency.
If someone can do work that takes you 4 hours, but only takes them 30 minutes, there is something to be said for that.
It's not good to be intelligent with a terrible work ethic, but also you could have the best work ethic in the world but you are still limited by your mind/body.
You cannot deny the reputation of the university has a great impact in graduate school or job applications.
Sure I can. Looking at where someone did their undergrad when they have a PHD, law or medical degree is like asking a university grad where they went to high school. Nobody gives a f*ck.
School reputation can help you get into grad school, but honestly... If you're trying to get into grad school and you can't... you just haven't really been trying (some exceptions may exist here if you're competing for spots in ivy league schools, etc.).
You cannot deny the reputation of the university has a great impact in graduate school or job applications.
Sure I can. Looking at where someone did their undergrad when they have a PHD, law or medical degree is like asking a university grad where they went to high school. Nobody gives a f*ck.
School reputation can help you get into grad school, but honestly... If you're trying to get into grad school and you can't... you just haven't really been trying (some exceptions may exist here if you're competing for spots in ivy league schools, etc.).
This is true. From my personal experience, once you're in medical school, everything you did in the past is essentially erased. It starts all over and you have to build up your resume again for it to count. This ritualistic purging happens again once you get into a residency. No one cares where you went if you got the spot.
As the only Chinese in the whole high school in a city in Canada. I think differently then the others because of my culture and how my parents raise me so I behave different then the other's. Loneliness made me more "mature", so I hang out with my friend "a nerd" because I feel like nerd are "more mature" generally more then the others, because I hang out with "nerd" i try to work hard at school. When i was younger, I was in another city where there is a lot of Chinese, When I was going to my Chinese school to learn mandarin on Saturday. I was the worst student because the other Chinese student was recently immigrate or they parent didn't live in Canada for long. In conclusion it mean that their is different way an Asian can be a "nerd" or unsocial it could be direct or undirect from the parents.
Second thing I'm annoy by Chinese are good in math and they like math, because I am born to be good in Math and generally other Chinese just work hard, pressure by parent/future/money/career or just like math, stereotypically smart people think Chinese do a lot of math. I HATE MATH but I'm born to be good in Math, I do advance math then the other, people and Chinese think I like math.
On November 12 2010 16:32 Klockan3 wrote: Academia isn't about working hard even though many seems to think so.
even though this is somewhat offtopic, i'm really troubled by this approach to academia. regardless of whether you're a genius or not, you'll always be more successful if you work hard.
i've noticed that some people find some sort of value in getting good grades without studying, as if achieving through less effort is somehow more admirable than achieving through a lot of effort. i have to say that in any sort of competitive environment most of those that think this way will be outdone.
Working hard and spending time on something are two different things. Just because you don't spend time on something doesn't mean you don't put effort into it. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who can ace a course by studying for a few hours that doesn't put a large amount of effort into those few hours--whereas if you compare the quality of his study time to the large majority of people who do the typical "study as long as possible in preparation" I think you'll find that the one who spends less time on it but still achieves the grade has typically gained more from his or her studying in a much shorter period of time.
Studying hard and being a "work drone" with "serious" hobbies does not make you more mature. Not in the least.
I have some friends with hobbies like: Skateboarding, BMX'ing, extrem Snowboarding, Motocross and they never studied hard, they know to and often do party hard, they have 08/15 Jobs.
Are they not mature because their hobbies and their live is more set around "having a good time/fun"?
If you think that, you probably are not that mature yourself. It's about living an enjoyable live on your own cash... Not about being "srs bznz!"
Some people here seem to think that you get to a certain age and suddenly become "grown up"... Doesn't happen, it just doesn't.
On November 12 2010 12:45 vOdToasT wrote: So asians are, on average, better students than the lazy ass white americans.
OH NO!!!!! FUCKING ASIANS, THEY TOOK 'R SPOTS!!!
If this isn't racism, I don't know what is.
Getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I know from personal experience that many Asians at the schools I've attended are shy, emotionally suppressive, and cocky when it comes to academic competitions.
People, you're going to be the best at whatever your time is invested in. If you spend all your time doing homework and studying, then that means you spent none of your time developing other skills.
There's a reason why America is one of the most powerful nations in the world, and why many desire to live here. You think whites are lazy? All of our founding fathers were white. Don't try and give me any shit about how America isn't "only white", and how it's success is because of its diverse racial mix...it isn't. According to Wiki's demographics for the US, white people make up 78.4% of the population. The rest of the percentages are split up between African American, Asian, Indian, and many others.
Consider this : Many countries have to build walls to keep people IN. The USA has to build walls to keep people OUT. You KNOW what I'm talking about. Illegal immigration is a huge issue over here as of right now.
Anyone hating on my country has no justifiable right to. Jealous bastards.
Because anyone that "hates" America is "jealous" of it. They hate us for our freedom! Why do you hate freedom?
In my experience the people who seem like they only study all the time don't I've the highest grades. They're usually just kids who struggle with school so they need to put in more time to not do horrible.
We are all hurt by the unfair expectations of others to some degree; regardless of whether they are positive or negative. do your best to ignore them and live your life the way you want.
As a general comment:
I think the one thing that is getting glossed over, and Im assuming this is because Canada has a smaller population of disadvantaged minorities, is that if you eliminate affirmative action you will probably have underrepresentation of those minorities.
I have heard some people say they hate affirmative action. Well I guess I can understand where that comes from; no one wants to lose their university spot to someone with worse marks, worse test scores and the like. But here in America, at least, the programs are extremely important because they are really the only chance ethnic minorities who arent physically gifted AND are poor AND went to a school where they never had the opportunities are going to get to go to the big public university.
And I can already here the criticism; "they should just work harder". I wonder though, those of you who would say that, have you been to a really poor school? One of the dangerous places in the inner city or maybe a poor rural school?
Because I have, and my judgment is that those environments are so bad that it seriously impedes the abilities of students to succeed. Giving the kids who do they best they can at those schools a chance, even at the expense of a student with better credentials from a much better school, is probably the only chance many of these kids have at social mobility.
Now, do I think Asian students should be denied entrance into a university because of their race? Obviously not, but that may very well be the consequence of a program that really is there for a good reason.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
I can't agree with this more. Half my graduating class from highschool went to UT and they echo similar sentiments as this. Most of their friends are the ones they made in highschool already. Everyone at UT is so fiercely competitive. Undergrad programs in different universities don't differ that greatly from one another so there really isn't a point in going to a certain school for prestige or whatever. I'd rather go to a school with smaller class sizes so I can really pick my professors' brains apart and a school that encourages social interaction. The drunken orgies and binge drinking is a plus too. So... Western > UT for undergrad studies in medicine.
The article misses the very important point of the availability of exceelent chinese food in waterloo as a result of all the asian students. This vastly improves quality of life for white people too!
On November 12 2010 15:49 Plutonium wrote: I'm going to make a few postulations:
a) The main desire an institute of higher learning is not just to educate, but to have graduates who become extraordinary figures in society, so that the reputation of the university is improved by their association with these people.
The primary motivation of an admittance office is to identify the people who have the innate talent to become the movers and shakers of society.
b) Historically, the main method that has been used to identify those with the potential to become an extraordinary figure is through the traditional admittance process - standardized test scores, past academic performance, and analysis of "intangibles" that translate into displays of independent thought and leadership qualities.
c) Race, ethnicity, or gender do not equate with the innate potential to become an extraordinary figure. All people are equally likely to possess the potential to become an extraordinary figure.
d) This identification process has been so thoroughly mapped out that parents of children who desire to see them admitted into top-flight universities push their children into "emulating" this potential, whether or not the child may or may not possess the innate desire or abilities of an extraordinary individual.
e) Asian cultures traditionally hold certain values higher than Western Cultures, and Western Cultures traditionally hold certain values higher than Asian cultures.
f) The values of Asian cultures contribute to a systematic increase in "measured" potential among children raised with those values using traditional methods of identification - standardized tests, academic GPA, and "intangibles" which supposedly reflect independent thought and leadership.
g) This systematic increase in measured potential to become an extraordinary figure does not correlate with actual potential to become an extraordinary figure. (see postulate c)
f) Therefore, the measurement system is flawed.
h) A new system of measurement being yet unproven or unfeasible due to the scale of university education, admissions officers must attempt to "correct" for this error, or suffer reduced efficiency in identifying future extraordinary figures.
Entirely agree + could'nt have put it better, except the term 'extraordinary figure' somehow kinda kept reminding me of Civ V lol.
However you stopped right at the point where things actually starts to become ethically hairy, even if i could sense the justification of the 'quotas' policy in Universities inbetween the last lines (dnt blame you for that, i stand neutral on this personally).
However, if your reasonning was followed further, wouldnt that mean that for the white bright/smart kids that still manage to get into those prestigious universities, becoming such 'extraordinary figures' as you put it, would actually be made easier, since they would shine more among the crowd of their 'apparent', but 'artificially-bred' peers? In that case it would not harm the diversity of those figures in any way, if that diversity ever needed to be preserved.
(lot of irony in this post in case i get flamed later btw)
figured i might as well add some imput more on topic: i'm a business school graduate in France, and here as well we notice an influx of asian students, still not as many so that they still mingle well but i could see how the situation could become like the US.
It's especially noticeable at my school since it has a focus on financial economics & business.
But here in America, at least, the programs are extremely important because they are really the only chance ethnic minorities who arent physically gifted AND are poor AND went to a school where they never had the opportunities are going to get to go to the big public university.
Affirmative Action benefits middle-class Blacks and Latinos ("URM's") the most, and hurts poor Asians (and to a lesser extent poor Whites) the most. Moreover, it's pretty clear that no matter how rich or poor you are, or what high school you went to, your pre-college achievements correlate very strongly with your post-college achievements. In other words, admitting someone to Harvard with low scores is not going to magically make them competitive with those who came in with high scores (for example, Blacks tend to do the poorest in law school, where tests are graded blindly, and have the lowest bar passage rates). Employers know and understand this, and so there is a tendency to view URM's with more skepticism (URM's are disproportionately represented amongst lay-offs at law firms).
In other words, Affirmative Action does not really help URM's, and most certainly hurts poor, ethnic minorities. If you want to help the poor, then do affirmative action based on family income, not race. But elite institutions will never do this, because they fear a student body that is too Asian.
I'm a student at the University of Waterloo, and I can definitely say that the amount of asians here is prominent. I myself am brown, but all of my roommates are Chinese, the majority of my friends are Chinese or Korean. It's not even so much a matter of me just liking asians as it is the population of the school being incredibly disproportionately asian. I'm a CS student, and in the math and CS faculty buildings I am more used to hearing Chinese and Korean being spoken when I walk through the halls than English at this point. When I go back to my hometown and hear people speaking English all the time, it actually feels kind of strange.
You can tell that at times the school tries to do things to diversify. For example last year when I lived in student residence, the cafeteria would sometimes have certain days when it would be "Italian Day" or "Mexican Day" etc. They tried a lot of different types of foods, and almost all of them seemed to be complete failures with people either choosing to eat somewhere else, or completely wasting the food: the majority just didn't like it. But believe me, every time they had "Asian Day" or "Sushi Day", I shit you not, you would literally have to wait an HOUR to be served. People would come in from all across the school and the line would extend to outside of the cafeteria until it was completely full, seemingly the cafeteria couldn't even produce enough sushi to satisfy all the customers, who were of course for the most part Asian.
I myself was ostracized to some extent by a lot of the white, brown, and well, 'non-Asian' students because I tended to hang out with more Asians. A lot of this just came down to the fact that they shared more hobbies and interests I liked, anime, video games, card games, tabletop games and I actually owe it to my Asian friends for getting me into starcraft By other students living in the dorm, I was deemed something of a 'race traitor' because I just wasn't that into being drunk seemingly all the time, smoking pot, watching sports, joining football/hockey clubs and that kind of thing.
One thing I've learned from hanging out with a lot of Asian students though is that they're a very hardworking people. My roommates tend to attend all their classes, focus on studying to the exclusion of a lot of other activities, and you can tell this kind of lifestyle works out well for them, especially given how many asian students there are. A few of my white friends have complained that it's really hard to find a girlfriend in Waterloo, but in comparison you seem to see asians walking around lovey dovey speaking their own language to each other all the time
Overall I don't regret coming here, hanging out with them has made me realize how important academics are, and it's also given me a ton more friends to enjoy video games and starcraft and that kind of thing with. They've been a lot better friends to me than I had in high school and the like. I don't think that Canadian schools should try to take affirmative action to get more non-asians into universities, but at the same time I feel like this university is at risk of becoming almost entirely Chinese/Korean at times. I myself have faced discrimination from other students because they are somewhat afraid of talking to me because I'm not asian and don't speak the same language as them, but I've kind of accepted it as a fact of life being a brown waterloo student.
On May 04 2011 01:56 SilverWolfe wrote: I'm a student at the University of Waterloo, and I can definitely say that the amount of asians here is prominent. I myself am brown, but all of my roommates are Chinese, the majority of my friends are Chinese or Korean. It's not even so much a matter of me just liking asians as it is the population of the school being incredibly disproportionately asian. I'm a CS student, and in the math and CS faculty buildings I am more used to hearing Chinese and Korean being spoken when I walk through the halls than English at this point. When I go back to my hometown and hear people speaking English all the time, it actually feels kind of strange.
You can tell that at times the school tries to do things to diversify. For example last year when I lived in student residence, the cafeteria would sometimes have certain days when it would be "Italian Day" or "Mexican Day" etc. They tried a lot of different types of foods, and almost all of them seemed to be complete failures with people either choosing to eat somewhere else, or completely wasting the food: the majority just didn't like it. But believe me, every time they had "Asian Day" or "Sushi Day", I shit you not, you would literally have to wait an HOUR to be served. People would come in from all across the school and the line would extend to outside of the cafeteria until it was completely full, seemingly the cafeteria couldn't even produce enough sushi to satisfy all the customers, who were of course for the most part Asian.
I myself was ostracized to some extent by a lot of the white, brown, and well, 'non-Asian' students because I tended to hang out with more Asians. A lot of this just came down to the fact that they shared more hobbies and interests I liked, anime, video games, card games, tabletop games and I actually owe it to my Asian friends for getting me into starcraft By other students living in the dorm, I was deemed something of a 'race traitor' because I just wasn't that into being drunk seemingly all the time, smoking pot, watching sports, joining football/hockey clubs and that kind of thing.
One thing I've learned from hanging out with a lot of Asian students though is that they're a very hardworking people. My roommates tend to attend all their classes, focus on studying to the exclusion of a lot of other activities, and you can tell this kind of lifestyle works out well for them, especially given how many asian students there are. A few of my white friends have complained that it's really hard to find a girlfriend in Waterloo, but in comparison you seem to see asians walking around lovey dovey speaking their own language to each other all the time
Overall I don't regret coming here, hanging out with them has made me realize how important academics are, and it's also given me a ton more friends to enjoy video games and starcraft and that kind of thing with. They've been a lot better friends to me than I had in high school and the like. I don't think that Canadian schools should try to take affirmative action to get more non-asians into universities, but at the same time I feel like this university is at risk of becoming almost entirely Chinese/Korean at times. I myself have faced discrimination from other students because they are somewhat afraid of talking to me because I'm not asian and don't speak the same language as them, but I've kind of accepted it as a fact of life being a brown waterloo student.
Holy Maiden of Necrofantasia, That's an old post
On topic It's really awkward. I really believe in, giving the higher priority seating to those who deserve it, put in more work. Maybe I am just biased. I don't know but I will say that I feel more comfortable around other asians. It's just a personal preference hahaha,
Facts of life, I bet theres a bunch of white people working super hard to be just as good as the asians, and all these quotes do its make it looks like all whites are a bunch of bums incapable of working as hard as the asians, on avg is true! but damn what a lame story
This is only happening because so many asians go to canada and their universities dont have white mainly bs
I was one of two non-asian people in my entire year at a local Singaporean school. Sure, there are a lot of sheltered, study-hard people, but there are a fair amount of people with more varied hobbies. It wasn't a very different culture at all.
Nor were the ones who tried to study all the time better at school or life.
My high school is 60% East Asian with 40% of the total school population being Chinese. Class averages for Math and Sciences are low 80s. English is around high 70s (ESL kids really pull down the average). Almost everyone goes to university; it's almost assumed you're going to university, not even college.
I'm the laziest of the Chinese students; I have zero work ethic, I only do assignments that are graded. Yet being so damn lazy, I still pull a 83 average; I'm usually the average or just above in my classes. I'm going to UofT next year.
to answer a lot of posts in this thread its a combination of IQ (genetics, environment, etc.) and culture (work ethnic, discipline, honor, etc.). number's dont lie
On May 04 2011 06:48 The_LiNk wrote: I'm the laziest of the Chinese students; I have zero work ethic, I only do assignments that are graded. Yet being so damn lazy, I still pull a 83 average; I'm usually the average or just above in my classes. I'm going to UofT next year.
So what's your excuse?
You sound like me, lazy as hell and study probably 2 hours max per exam and do only assignments that are graded and attend class only when its mandatory/participation needed. My average ranges B+ to A+ range usually. People complain how they study for hours each day just to get a B, but I know how they study, facebook every 5 minutes.
On May 04 2011 06:48 The_LiNk wrote: My high school is 60% East Asian with 40% of the total school population being Chinese. Class averages for Math and Sciences are low 80s. English is around high 70s (ESL kids really pull down the average). Almost everyone goes to university; it's almost assumed you're going to university, not even college.
I'm the laziest of the Chinese students; I have zero work ethic, I only do assignments that are graded. Yet being so damn lazy, I still pull a 83 average; I'm usually the average or just above in my classes. I'm going to UofT next year.
So what's your excuse?
You're in highschool kid. I pulled straight A's skipping classes to go smoke weed at my friends house almost everyday, hardly ever doing any work at all really. High school is a joke you can talk yourself through if you have the skills.
to answer a lot of posts in this thread its a combination of IQ and culture..number's don't lie
This study is crap it doesn't account for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain part of the reason that 3rd world countries don't advance is because the unskilled labor is exploited while the skilled labor is exported.
People try to blame race but has shown that again and again when people are educated effectively with the same resources and opportunity that they will be similar intelligence regardless of their ethnic background.
On May 04 2011 06:48 The_LiNk wrote: My high school is 60% East Asian with 40% of the total school population being Chinese. Class averages for Math and Sciences are low 80s. English is around high 70s (ESL kids really pull down the average). Almost everyone goes to university; it's almost assumed you're going to university, not even college.
I'm the laziest of the Chinese students; I have zero work ethic, I only do assignments that are graded. Yet being so damn lazy, I still pull a 83 average; I'm usually the average or just above in my classes. I'm going to UofT next year.
So what's your excuse?
You're in highschool kid. I pulled straight A's skipping classes to go smoke weed at my friends house almost everyday, hardly ever doing any work at all really. High school is a joke you can talk yourself through if you have the skills.
So there really is no excuse for these people complaining about being unable to go to university or to the good universities because they're (the university) "Asian" now is there?
to answer a lot of posts in this thread its a combination of IQ and culture..number's don't lie
This study is crap it doesn't account for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain#Africa part of the reason that 3rd world countries don't advance is because the unskilled labor is exploited while the skilled labor is exported.
brain drain and labor exploitation isn't relevant to IQ
This article doesn't recommend any solutions to anything. But then again it doesn't explicitly say that the disproportionate number of Asians and their presumably low levels of socializing are a real problem. In other words, the article's just a poor attempt at creating an issue out of nothing.
to answer a lot of posts in this thread its a combination of IQ and culture..number's don't lie
This study is crap it doesn't account for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain#Africa part of the reason that 3rd world countries don't advance is because the unskilled labor is exploited while the skilled labor is exported.
brain drain and labor exploitation isn't relevant to IQ
How can you say brain drain isn't relevant to IQ lol? The educated people are all leaving the third world and developing countries because they don't want to martyr their career so that others can prosper in the future when 1st world countries provide them with jobs. If all the educated people leave the IQ will drop. How can you say labor exploitation isn't? Poor people can't afford to establish schools and educate their young or even themselves like the wealthy can. Poor nations will always have lower IQs.
Honestly a vast majority of the population (which is mostly white here in the US) is unmotivated, and incapable of simple rational thought. They don't understand much of anything that isn't just spoon fed to them so going to any kind of higher education is bad for them because they have to "work hard" or not get hammered drunk nearly every weekend.
People are just so fucking stupid...and so fucking lazy....
Oh well.
To end, no school is too "Asian". The problem lies in the people that believe learning isn't as important as anything else on the planet.
On May 04 2011 06:46 Dfgj wrote: I was one of two non-asian people in my entire year at a local Singaporean school. Sure, there are a lot of sheltered, study-hard people, but there are a fair amount of people with more varied hobbies. It wasn't a very different culture at all.
Nor were the ones who tried to study all the time better at school or life.
Agreed. It's not that asians have "no life" and study the whole day. We balance work and play such that they don't get in each others' ways, to live a well rounded life.
Also, if there are 20 other people eyeing your spot in university or class, you'd feel pretty pressured to do well too.
to answer a lot of posts in this thread its a combination of IQ (genetics, environment, etc.) and culture (work ethnic, discipline, honor, etc.). number's dont lie
Worst BS i've seen in a while. How was the mean IQ of rural china measured in this study?
to answer a lot of posts in this thread its a combination of IQ and culture..number's don't lie
This study is crap it doesn't account for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain#Africa part of the reason that 3rd world countries don't advance is because the unskilled labor is exploited while the skilled labor is exported.
brain drain and labor exploitation isn't relevant to IQ
Sounds to me like it could? I'm not sure either way but the systematic removal of skilled laborers from a country over time surely could effect the average "IQ" of an area couldn't it?
What would have happened to India if so many of their educated didn't leave but instead stayed?
Like, I said I'm not sure but I can't imagine that there is no possibility that they could relate.
I think science and engineering students in general regardless of cultural background are more hard working that humanities/social sciences students simply because they need to be in order to get something out of their degree (medical school, graduate school, etc), whereas arts degrees are useless no matter what and the workload is much lighter. There are a disproportionate number of Asian people in engineering and the natural sciences, whereas the arts (English, Philosophy, etc) and social sciences are mostly made up of white people.
People need to realize that the far east didn't become the world most educated sector (arguable compared to Scandinavia) until the post world war two economic booms and the economic success gained in the latter half of the 20th century.
There's not too much Asians can do with regards to the discriminatory admissions policies of Ivy League and other private schools (incl. publics too but anyways). No amount of bs-ing and raising awareness will change that.
I think the key is to understand that although in Asia, social upclassing through merit is possible, that is not always the case here.
In some American sectors, it's an all-out White male's club; if you don't fit into their WASP culture, they just won't hire you. In other American sectors, they look for teamwork and they will likely pick Whites who are more culturally identifiable; Asians are not incapable of working as a team. But the widespread stereotypes will inevitably influence the perceptions of recruiters. And obviously, there's going to be racism at all levels; some hospitals won't hire nurses with bad english accents, law firms will hire asian associates and burn them out, but not make them partner, etc.
It's not really surprising that White Americans are racist against Asians. Throughout history, there's always been this sense of cultural inferiority; if it was more pronounced in the past, today it still exists but only behind the mask of political-correctness. Asians have to battle against their increasing odds and although unfair, you live with whatever you've been given. It's better to win against the odds and increase Asian's cultural capital now, so that in future generations, discrimination in the US can be diminished.
On May 04 2011 07:24 hmmm... wrote: There's not too much Asians can do with regards to the discriminatory admissions policies of Ivy League and other private schools (incl. publics too but anyways). No amount of bs-ing and raising awareness will change that.
I think the key is to understand that although in Asia, social upclassing through merit is possible, that is not always the case here.
In some American sectors, it's an all-out White male's club; if you don't fit into their WASP culture, they just won't hire you. In other American sectors, they look for teamwork and they will likely pick Whites who are more culturally identifiable; Asians are not incapable of working as a team. But the widespread stereotypes will inevitably influence the perceptions of recruiters. And obviously, there's going to be racism at all levels; some hospitals won't hire nurses with bad english accents, law firms will hire asian associates and burn them out, but not make them partner, etc.
It's not really surprising that White Americans are racist against Asians. Throughout history, there's always been this sense of cultural inferiority; if it was more pronounced in the past, today it still exists but only behind the mask of political-correctness. Asians have to battle against their increasing odds and although unfair, you live with whatever you've been given. It's better to win against the odds and increase Asian's cultural capital now, so that in future generations, discrimination in the US can be diminished.
I wouldn't go so far as what you said but I would not disagree that with a completely even match, some companies may give preference to a white person over an asian. I would not generalize on that point too far though.
However, the article went too far in portraying a complete blackout scenario. I remember the countless articles that were brought up against it when the article just came out.
Also, each private school has it's own idiots as students. Unfortunately, they picked some of the most biased students of the pool.
Chill: If you really think that there is no discrimination against foreign executives in American companies, look at the CEOs/Execs of the Forbes companies. Asians may not be discriminated against for hiring, but it has been proven several times over that they have a glass ceiling.
On May 04 2011 07:50 moltenlead wrote: I wouldn't go so far as what you said but I would not disagree that with a completely even match, some companies may give preference to a white person over an asian. I would not generalize on that point too far though.
However, the article went too far in portraying a complete blackout scenario. I remember the countless articles that were brought up against it when the article just came out.
Also, each private school has it's own idiots as students. Unfortunately, they picked some of the most biased students of the pool.
Chill: If you really think that there is no discrimination against foreign executives in American companies, look at the CEOs/Execs of the Forbes companies. Asians may not be discriminated against for hiring, but it has been proven several times over that they have a glass ceiling.
The stereotypical strict Asian parent raising a child to overachieve and succeed isn't for the end goal of their child becoming a CEO, but rather something like doctor, engineer, etc.
Very interesting article, however one has to consider that all colleges and universities want to build a level of diversity in their schools and they actively consider that during the application process and this doesn't only affect Asians. Women have a lot harder time getting in to top colleges because there are more of them applying, whereas a Native American person from rural wyoming would have an advantage because they are so unique. And they want people with different interests and/or qualities.
To me the "too asian" problem sounds like its more of a "too nerdy" problem or something of that nature. As a white kid soon applying to college i wouldn't really care if a school was 40% asian if they were interesting people, but i definitely wouldn't want to go to a school where 40% of the kids don't do anything because they're confucius wannabes studying 8 hours a day to get 2400 SATs.
So while people at Universities seem to think those two groups go together perhaps more often than is the case for other races i think schools need to differentiate between "Asians" and academic tryhards that can't do anything but fill in bubbles on a test and build a nice resume. I wouldn't want those kids at my school either. As mentioned in the article, placing more prevalence on interviews and/or looking for kids who have leadership potential/common sense or just seem interesting ALONG with getting good grades wouldn't be a bad idea.
As an Canadian Asian at a "top ivy league" US university...
I'm completely 100% against affirmative action. Instead, universities should change what they're looking for. Instead of basing everything off of grades and SATs, make sure they're well rounded students. Don't just check the APs, don't just check math competitions, but see their extracurricular results as well.
Affirmative action, in my opinion, is a sad and unfortunate reasoning that ultimately has no base in reason. No student in the world should be turned away just because of their race, if their credentials are over what's necessary.
However, the obvious solution is to change the credentials, and I see this as a totally acceptable method. Although academics are important, there are so many more external factors that make a person successful (however you define that) later in life. Interpersonal relationships, teamwork, speaking ability, leadership ability, motivation, personal drive, etc. A lot of US schools, and Canadian universities too, place too much emphasis on pure academics. If I can offer a crappy analogy, you don't become a great basketball player just because you can shoot the ball in the net perfectly from anywhere. You've gotta move, understand teamwork, understand strategy, flow, defense, offense, etc... just like in life, you can't expect to rely on one aspect to pull you through in everything.
Having said all that, it's very possible that even with these credentials changed, asians still could be proportionally high. That's pretty much what happened at my high school. My school was split down the middle, as if a racist deity drew an invisible line down the center of each class. In order to distinguish themselves from the "fobs", white highschool kids would only keep to themselves, talk down on the asian students, and pretty much became the bums, crackheads, and potheads of my school. It's not that they were stupid, but they literally made themselves do badly in school. On the other hand, asians like myself studied our asses off, and actually competed amongst each other, while also engaging in a ton of extracurricular activities because, essentially, other asian students were doing those activities. At the end of the day, (in my school), you've got an asian student who's done well academically and in extracurriculars, and you've got a white student who's failed both and is smoking pot every weekend with his friends. No credentials are going to save that.
Pretty much, what I'm babbling about is that racism is a ridiculous cycle. Racism in our schools causes divisions within students, and those divisions to some extent are why Asians perform better in schools. Of course, some schools have the exact opposite trend, where Asians gang together and become idiots who drive around rice rockets smoking on sidewalks, and the white kids do well and go to good schools. Nothing is strictly polarized in one way, but they are polarized, in one way or another. It just so happens that Asian parents generally really drill their kids to do well academically, (not trying to start a tiger mom argument here), and they end up doing well in high school. College is a different story altogether, not going to go into that.
As for short term, colleges really have to get rid of this affirmative action nonsense. That is blatant racism to the highest degree, no matter how you try and dress that up with excuses. Saying you want a balanced and diverse campus is essentially saying you don't want too much of any one race, which is by its very nature, racist.
Is nobody going to bring up Indian students as well? Going to an international school in highschool, every Indian person was "discriminated" against in the same exact way, I remember Embry-Riddle came, and the man from the school brought up all of his concerns that we were "losing our country to foreigners." His theory is that they will get educated, then just leave, and cause america to lose its great power status. Imagine his dismay when he learned we were all asian and indian (besides me, fooling him to come here)
And to the person above me, its sadly true. I discovered this, and applied to a charter school, which is thing is much better for a highschool...but school size and budget cuts weaken it.
On May 04 2011 07:24 hmmm... wrote: There's not too much Asians can do with regards to the discriminatory admissions policies of Ivy League and other private schools (incl. publics too but anyways). No amount of bs-ing and raising awareness will change that.
I think the key is to understand that although in Asia, social upclassing through merit is possible, that is not always the case here.
In some American sectors, it's an all-out White male's club; if you don't fit into their WASP culture, they just won't hire you. In other American sectors, they look for teamwork and they will likely pick Whites who are more culturally identifiable; Asians are not incapable of working as a team. But the widespread stereotypes will inevitably influence the perceptions of recruiters. And obviously, there's going to be racism at all levels; some hospitals won't hire nurses with bad english accents, law firms will hire asian associates and burn them out, but not make them partner, etc.
It's not really surprising that White Americans are racist against Asians. Throughout history, there's always been this sense of cultural inferiority; if it was more pronounced in the past, today it still exists but only behind the mask of political-correctness. Asians have to battle against their increasing odds and although unfair, you live with whatever you've been given. It's better to win against the odds and increase Asian's cultural capital now, so that in future generations, discrimination in the US can be diminished.
Do you have any sources for that whatsoever?
Because so many people in this thread are giving sources to back up their opinions. I really don't see why the guy was warned.
On May 04 2011 08:16 Keone wrote: As an Canadian Asian at a "top ivy league" US university...
I'm completely 100% against affirmative action. Instead, universities should change what they're looking for. Instead of basing everything off of grades and SATs, make sure they're well rounded students. Don't just check the APs, don't just check math competitions, but see their extracurricular results as well.
Affirmative action, in my opinion, is a sad and unfortunate reasoning that ultimately has no base in reason. No student in the world should be turned away just because of their race, if their credentials are over what's necessary.
However, the obvious solution is to change the credentials, and I see this as a totally acceptable method. Although academics are important, there are so many more external factors that make a person successful (however you define that) later in life. Interpersonal relationships, teamwork, speaking ability, leadership ability, motivation, personal drive, etc. A lot of US schools, and Canadian universities too, place too much emphasis on pure academics. If I can offer a crappy analogy, you don't become a great basketball player just because you can shoot the ball in the net perfectly from anywhere. You've gotta move, understand teamwork, understand strategy, flow, defense, offense, etc... just like in life, you can't expect to rely on one aspect to pull you through in everything.
Having said all that, it's very possible that even with these credentials changed, asians still could be proportionally high. That's pretty much what happened at my high school. My school was split down the middle, as if a racist deity drew an invisible line down the center of each class. In order to distinguish themselves from the "fobs", white highschool kids would only keep to themselves, talk down on the asian students, and pretty much became the bums, crackheads, and potheads of my school. It's not that they were stupid, but they literally made themselves do badly in school. On the other hand, asians like myself studied our asses off, and actually competed amongst each other, while also engaging in a ton of extracurricular activities because, essentially, other asian students were doing those activities. At the end of the day, (in my school), you've got an asian student who's done well academically and in extracurriculars, and you've got a white student who's failed both and is smoking pot every weekend with his friends. No credentials are going to save that.
Pretty much, what I'm babbling about is that racism is a ridiculous cycle. Racism in our schools causes divisions within students, and those divisions to some extent are why Asians perform better in schools. Of course, some schools have the exact opposite trend, where Asians gang together and become idiots who drive around rice rockets smoking on sidewalks, and the white kids do well and go to good schools. Nothing is strictly polarized in one way, but they are polarized, in one way or another. It just so happens that Asian parents generally really drill their kids to do well academically, (not trying to start a tiger mom argument here), and they end up doing well in high school. College is a different story altogether, not going to go into that.
As for short term, colleges really have to get rid of this affirmative action nonsense. That is blatant racism to the highest degree, no matter how you try and dress that up with excuses. Saying you want a balanced and diverse campus is essentially saying you don't want too much of any one race, which is by its very nature, racist.
The problem with your plan is twofold: 1. A majority of students' extracurricular activities are sports in high school, obviously most will nto be able to participate in college. 2. Extracurricular activities have almost no relation to success in school. If Harvard and other Ivies had honest grading curves these people who get improved ranking because of participating in sports they would fail. As it is Harvard fails relatively few people because it (and most ivies) are increasingly intellectually dishonest.
I don't understand the problem with admitting the students who worked hardest to get where they are. If person A wants it more than person B and works correspondingly harder than he is more worthy.
The people who make these policies are obviously of an older generation. They let their nostalgia become a bias, thinking that because they enjoyed their time in education (or that they thought the social aspect was a good system) that they want the same for their children.
One thing that generation after generation fails to realize however is that cultures change, for better or for worse, but regardless of interference the kids of todayand those of 50 years ago and 50 years from now will have different experiences. And when they're adults they will feel the same way as the legislators do, but after having a considerably different journey.
As has been mentioned in this thread Asian kids/teenages/adults have the same drive for fun and enjoyment that we do but sometimes expressed in different ways due to their culture - such as lan parties and game nights as opposed to drinking and partying. Both are just as social as each other, neither is better, and I really cant see it as fair that we decide our way is better for us when in the end the Asians appear to achieve so much more.
In a multicultural society (which I hope will never change) I don't see a good enough argument for people being refused placement due to ethnicity. It just feels too apartheid to me. If an Asian kid works harder, studies harder and is smarter than me then best of luck to them - they SHOULD achieve more.
Honestly, thoughts about people "taking our jobs" or "not participating in OUR version of how you should socialize in college" is beneath anyone who calls themselves a free thinker. We can only be better off if the most intelligent in society regardless of ethnicity get what they deserve.
I don't understand the article saying that Princeton and other Ivy League schools were discriminating against Asians to keep it WASP. My friend applied to an Ivy along with an Asian kid in his AP classes. My friend was 2nd in his class, all state in sports, captain of his team, and just as high SAT scores as the Asian kid but they took the Asian kid who was ~10th in the class and sat the bench on the sports teams just for "participation". Does not make any sense to me. They were also from the same town even though there may have been some variance income wise.
Maybe the Asian kid played the piano since that seems to make admission people cum all over themselves repeatedly. It is a mystery to me...
Complains Waterloo student Simon Wang, a Chinese national who is frustrated by the segregation at Waterloo: “Why bother to come to Canada and pay five times as much to speak Chinese?”
This upset me, and is so wrong.
I also think uni should be about study not about a good time.
1) African Americans were allowed increased admissions even though they typically had lower test scores(correct if I'm wrong). I think we are seeing something similar here, an attempt to keep some sort of "balance" (or imbalance).
2) As stated in the article, some parents are lying about extra-curricular activities that their children do. Perhaps the Uni's know about this and whenever they see a 4.0GPA and amazing SAT's along with a boatloat of activities, they know it's not always accurate.
Dunno, I'm throwing some stuff out there. I also think, perhaps, people have a fear of Asians taking over.
On May 04 2011 09:32 LostDevil wrote: I don't understand the article saying that Princeton and other Ivy League schools were discriminating against Asians to keep it WASP. My friend applied to an Ivy along with an Asian kid in his AP classes. My friend was 2nd in his class, all state in sports, captain of his team, and just as high SAT scores as the Asian kid but they took the Asian kid who was ~10th in the class and sat the bench on the sports teams just for "participation". Does not make any sense to me. They were also from the same town even though there may have been some variance income wise.
Maybe the Asian kid played the piano since that seems to make admission people cum all over themselves repeatedly. It is a mystery to me...
Maybe this "Asian kid" was really good at piano or something else. Did you know him personally? There are thousands of things setting your friend apart from "that asian kid" try to know more before you judge.
All this stereotyping is ridiculous, who cares? Institutions are private organizations they can discriminate all they want if they really want. Blatant discrimination shows in their student body and if that's what a university wants they can do so. The final choice is the SCHOOL's on who not accept of not, it's just because of the equal opportunity bullshit that's blow things out of proportion.
(I'm Asian, from Taiwan living in Canada, I speak english/french/mandarin fluently)
I'm a sophomore mechanical engineering major at a top 20 engineering school in the US, and there really aren't THAT many asians in my classes. There's generally 2 to 4 or so in my class of like 30 or so people, and while that might not be exactly proportional to the united state's demographics it isn't like our classrooms are being zerg rushed by throngs of asians like some people in this thread are making it out to be.
Also I haven't noticed a trend of said asians being any better at school than anyone else. Like people in the class KNOW who the smart kids are, and with little exceptions those smart kids are Caucasian.
This is at least true for undergrads. The grad students are all asian, lmao
On May 04 2011 09:32 LostDevil wrote: I don't understand the article saying that Princeton and other Ivy League schools were discriminating against Asians to keep it WASP. My friend applied to an Ivy along with an Asian kid in his AP classes. My friend was 2nd in his class, all state in sports, captain of his team, and just as high SAT scores as the Asian kid but they took the Asian kid who was ~10th in the class and sat the bench on the sports teams just for "participation". Does not make any sense to me. They were also from the same town even though there may have been some variance income wise.
Maybe the Asian kid played the piano since that seems to make admission people cum all over themselves repeatedly. It is a mystery to me...
There are a lot of things that could have gotten your Asian friend into whatever Ivy we're talking about - better essays, awards, recs, etc.
Fact is that there is a quota on Asians in nearly all private colleges to maintain "diversity," which screws over a lot of Asians that have the right credentials.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways.
And this is the kind of post that basically demonstrates why being socially inept is a bad thing. You have no experience and no grasp of how other people act, so you jump straight to retarded sounding statements.
The social aspect of university education is just as important if not moreso than the academic aspect. Almost one of the most successful people in the world got their solely because they were the smartest, they got there because other people liked them.
On May 04 2011 07:24 hmmm... wrote: There's not too much Asians can do with regards to the discriminatory admissions policies of Ivy League and other private schools (incl. publics too but anyways). No amount of bs-ing and raising awareness will change that.
I think the key is to understand that although in Asia, social upclassing through merit is possible, that is not always the case here.
In some American sectors, it's an all-out White male's club; if you don't fit into their WASP culture, they just won't hire you. In other American sectors, they look for teamwork and they will likely pick Whites who are more culturally identifiable; Asians are not incapable of working as a team. But the widespread stereotypes will inevitably influence the perceptions of recruiters. And obviously, there's going to be racism at all levels; some hospitals won't hire nurses with bad english accents, law firms will hire asian associates and burn them out, but not make them partner, etc.
It's not really surprising that White Americans are racist against Asians. Throughout history, there's always been this sense of cultural inferiority; if it was more pronounced in the past, today it still exists but only behind the mask of political-correctness. Asians have to battle against their increasing odds and although unfair, you live with whatever you've been given. It's better to win against the odds and increase Asian's cultural capital now, so that in future generations, discrimination in the US can be diminished.
User was warned for this post
why was he warned for this? was it really Chill McWhitey asking for references about hegemony and white privilege? take any social science class, white nooby
On May 04 2011 07:50 moltenlead wrote: I wouldn't go so far as what you said but I would not disagree that with a completely even match, some companies may give preference to a white person over an asian. I would not generalize on that point too far though.
However, the article went too far in portraying a complete blackout scenario. I remember the countless articles that were brought up against it when the article just came out.
Also, each private school has it's own idiots as students. Unfortunately, they picked some of the most biased students of the pool.
Chill: If you really think that there is no discrimination against foreign executives in American companies, look at the CEOs/Execs of the Forbes companies. Asians may not be discriminated against for hiring, but it has been proven several times over that they have a glass ceiling.
The stereotypical strict Asian parent raising a child to overachieve and succeed isn't for the end goal of their child becoming a CEO, but rather something like doctor, engineer, etc.
So you are saying the glass ceiling (if there is one) is in place not because of discrimination (conscious or subconscious) but because of the fact you think most Asian parents are strict and raise their kids to just be doctors or engineers? :/
This is why I'm at a private liberal arts school. The expectation here is that you have damn good academic credentials - what sets you apart from other candidates are the other things that you have that don't relate to academics because people here know that you need a wide breadth of experiences to really be successful in life. You can't just be an academic book worm and really succeed at most things.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways.
And this is the kind of post that basically demonstrates why being socially inept is a bad thing. You have no experience and no grasp of how other people act, so you jump straight to retarded sounding statements.
The social aspect of university education is just as important if not moreso than the academic aspect. Almost one of the most successful people in the world got their solely because they were the smartest, they got there because other people liked them.
thats not what he said though. maybe if you read the post rather than jump on the first "nerd" for you to call socialy inept you wouldnt look like a complete tool. i disagree with what he said, but jumping on it and calling people social inept is just stupid
hes right. you can have friends, go out, stay in, have a hobby, socialise in any way you want. none of this is intrinsically tied to drink. without exception, every person ive ever met who equates alcohol to having a good time has been a moron who drinks because his/her other moronic friends all force each other into it. people who dont see having a conversation with a friend a fun activity unless they are so wasted that every sentence starts and ends with "well ye dude but ye".
its true, most powerful people in the world get there by who they know not what they know. but its also true that most of these people were also the nerds, the ones who didnt just get drunk, who didnt have orgies every week.
you can have random sex, you can get drunk. the "nerd" attitude to social interation explicitly allows this, but unlike your jock perspective there are also other alternatives.
Universities are for higher education learning. If you want to spend ten grand a year on the potential desire to take acyclovir and drink some watered down bud light might I suggest a community college; it will save you in the long run. After you're done acting like a child and with all that extra money saved the possibility of attending a bigboy school is still financially affordable. This is one of the reasons I suggest most people do two years of community and two in a uni for their BA then go to graduate school if thats what they so desire. Kids are still kids right out of high school, they need a few more years of world experience before all that "youthfulness" is less predominant and their decisions less poor.
I never understood why people treated college like a party that has a $120k cover charge. If you're paying to go to school, I think you should focus on school. If you're not focused, don't bother wasting your money. Sink it into something that you think is worthwhile.
I don't think it's as much a nationality issue than it is a mentality issue.
You learn things from the Asian culture such as hard work and politeness and assimilate them into your culture/way of life and you also make sure to avoid the downfalls like anti-social-ness and overworking. There's good things to take from any culture, but there isn't one that has all the traits that make an "ideal human" in the way we're talking about here.
Of course all of this doesn't need to be said because everyone knows this deep down, it's just that sometimes people need a reminder amidst all the arguing.
As the voice of out generation, I believe Mr. Sheen put it perfectly. "Winning, duh." If Asians truly are succeeding more, we shouldn't try to stop them. Everyone else should just try to keep up...
You don't pull a winner back, you try to get the losers on their level.
On May 04 2011 10:38 TALegion wrote: As the voice of out generation, I believe Mr. Sheen put it perfectly. "Winning, duh." If Asians truly are succeeding more, we shouldn't try to stop them. Everyone else should just try to keep up...
You don't pull a winner back, you try to get the losers on their level.
It's like patching Starcraft 2 for the casuals , I think that would put into better perspective, since most people here are relatively potent at the game. What would you do if Blizzard started to water down the game just to let more casuals join?
On May 04 2011 10:25 mell0w wrote: Universities are for higher education learning. If you want to spend ten grand a year on the potential desire to take acyclovir and drink some watered down bud light might I suggest a community college; it will save you in the long run. After you're done acting like a child and with all that extra money saved the possibility of attending a bigboy school is still financially affordable. This is one of the reasons I suggest most people do two years of community and two in a uni for their BA then go to graduate school if thats what they so desire. Kids are still kids right out of high school, they need a few more years of world experience before all that "youthfulness" is less predominant and their decisions less poor.
Many students come out of college without event the faintest clue about what the real world is like, and this isn't just because they are partying all the time. Many kids focus entirely too much on academics. Just working too hard on academics the entire time in college doesn't teach you what the real world is like. It doesn't prepare you for it any more than being a drunk slob all through college does. To actually be ready for the real world you need a combination of doing well in academics (developing a work ethic/learning knowledge necessary for work) and socializing (learning how to interact with others in various situations and how to relate to others). There are very few fields out there where you can get away with being socially incompetent.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways.
And this is the kind of post that basically demonstrates why being socially inept is a bad thing. You have no experience and no grasp of how other people act, so you jump straight to retarded sounding statements.
The social aspect of university education is just as important if not moreso than the academic aspect. Almost one of the most successful people in the world got their solely because they were the smartest, they got there because other people liked them.
Chenchen: "Drinking and having orgies aren't the only ways to have fun, and they don't seem very social to me." Hmunkey: "Everyone look at the nerd! See how socially inept it is! It doesn't understand that success is about being social!"
Drinking and clubbing aren't everyone's cup of tea. I chose to go to an academic university partly because here the people who prefer social studying to social drinking don't stand out much. We have our zones with wireless and many powerpoints, they have a bar. We spend our time there talking, and helping each other to learn because we prefer that to dancing etc. Our socialisation is no more or less valid than yours.
(I'm at a university that would probably have been called "too asian" by the kids in the article as a white non-wasp. AFAIK the group that has trouble integrating here are the local kids, especially those who enjoy clubbing, because they tend to stick purely with their old school friends and not branch out.)
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways.
And this is the kind of post that basically demonstrates why being socially inept is a bad thing. You have no experience and no grasp of how other people act, so you jump straight to retarded sounding statements.
The social aspect of university education is just as important if not moreso than the academic aspect. Almost one of the most successful people in the world got their solely because they were the smartest, they got there because other people liked them.
Absolute rubbish. University has always been primarily concerned with ACADEMIA.
College isn't some self-help seminar meant to teach people 'social skills'. Next thing you know people will be complaining that they have to study too hard for their doctorates at graduate schools.
Having a 'healthy social life' is a thinly-veiled rationalization made by those who haven't the will or discipline to work hard for extended periods of time.
And people wonder why America graduates so few engineering and hard science majors these days (of the few, most are Asian).
On May 04 2011 10:25 mell0w wrote: Universities are for higher education learning. If you want to spend ten grand a year on the potential desire to take acyclovir and drink some watered down bud light might I suggest a community college; it will save you in the long run. After you're done acting like a child and with all that extra money saved the possibility of attending a bigboy school is still financially affordable. This is one of the reasons I suggest most people do two years of community and two in a uni for their BA then go to graduate school if thats what they so desire. Kids are still kids right out of high school, they need a few more years of world experience before all that "youthfulness" is less predominant and their decisions less poor.
Many students come out of college without event the faintest clue about what the real world is like, and this isn't just because they are partying all the time. Many kids focus entirely too much on academics. Just working too hard on academics the entire time in college doesn't teach you what the real world is like. It doesn't prepare you for it any more than being a drunk slob all through college does. To actually be ready for the real world you need a combination of doing well in academics (developing a work ethic/learning knowledge necessary for work) and socializing (learning how to interact with others in various situations and how to relate to others). There are very few fields out there where you can get away with being socially incompetent.
This often includes academics. Studying as a group can be more efficient to studying by yourself (especially in groupwork) and increase the enjoyability reducing the risk of burnout.
Just a guess, but I think running student clubs and societies probably provide superior training in the "real world" to some combination of studying and socialising. [Damn my brain, it's trying to characterise this as a system of equations.]
I think people are putting to much emphasis on being social. You learn the majority of that on the way from just talking with others, you don't need a less strict environment to do this. People will always find a way to come together, its part of our nature. A few years of not gossiping and not drinking heavily will not turn you into an autist or an introvert. In fact I'd be he first to say those defending the idea there needs to be less curriculum and more social atmosphere are the ones without much if any of the "real world experience". You can do both even in a top tier college; you're on a forum dedicated to a game that requires an insane amount of multitasking, so put some of that multitasking to work!
i'm asian, and i don't consider us to be more intelligent than whites.
they after all, built american society from the ground up, and we're here to enjoy the benefits. but i do think we work harder, because a lot of us here appreciate education more, due to constant conditioning from our parents.
i don't see this as a bad thing;the world is becoming extremely competitive now, and you really need to be skilled at a trade if you want to survive. this isn't like the 1950's where lots of people can afford homes, this is a brutal new age and a lot of slackers are gonna have a very rude awakening in the future.
On May 04 2011 07:24 hmmm... wrote: There's not too much Asians can do with regards to the discriminatory admissions policies of Ivy League and other private schools (incl. publics too but anyways). No amount of bs-ing and raising awareness will change that.
I think the key is to understand that although in Asia, social upclassing through merit is possible, that is not always the case here.
In some American sectors, it's an all-out White male's club; if you don't fit into their WASP culture, they just won't hire you. In other American sectors, they look for teamwork and they will likely pick Whites who are more culturally identifiable; Asians are not incapable of working as a team. But the widespread stereotypes will inevitably influence the perceptions of recruiters. And obviously, there's going to be racism at all levels; some hospitals won't hire nurses with bad english accents, law firms will hire asian associates and burn them out, but not make them partner, etc.
It's not really surprising that White Americans are racist against Asians. Throughout history, there's always been this sense of cultural inferiority; if it was more pronounced in the past, today it still exists but only behind the mask of political-correctness. Asians have to battle against their increasing odds and although unfair, you live with whatever you've been given. It's better to win against the odds and increase Asian's cultural capital now, so that in future generations, discrimination in the US can be diminished.
Just google it, it's everywhere.. Oh wait, white privilege is also the privilege to care if you are white*.
*No idea if you're white (although I'm fairly certain by your quick reaction to warn hmmm...)
EDIT: I sometimes believe that people forget that colleges have reputations that they want to maintain. If we purely focus on the consequences on students that lack social orientation due to rigorous academics, then we lose sight of what college really is about. And yes, Asians are severely overrepresented at top universities, although it's a bit hard to gripe about it if they have strong standing credentials on paper.
On May 04 2011 10:25 mell0w wrote: Universities are for higher education learning. If you want to spend ten grand a year on the potential desire to take acyclovir and drink some watered down bud light might I suggest a community college; it will save you in the long run. After you're done acting like a child and with all that extra money saved the possibility of attending a bigboy school is still financially affordable. This is one of the reasons I suggest most people do two years of community and two in a uni for their BA then go to graduate school if thats what they so desire. Kids are still kids right out of high school, they need a few more years of world experience before all that "youthfulness" is less predominant and their decisions less poor.
Many students come out of college without event the faintest clue about what the real world is like, and this isn't just because they are partying all the time. Many kids focus entirely too much on academics. Just working too hard on academics the entire time in college doesn't teach you what the real world is like. It doesn't prepare you for it any more than being a drunk slob all through college does. To actually be ready for the real world you need a combination of doing well in academics (developing a work ethic/learning knowledge necessary for work) and socializing (learning how to interact with others in various situations and how to relate to others). There are very few fields out there where you can get away with being socially incompetent.
This often includes academics. Studying as a group can be more efficient to studying by yourself (especially in groupwork) and increase the enjoyability reducing the risk of burnout.
Just a guess, but I think running student clubs and societies probably provide superior training in the "real world" to some combination of studying and socialising. [Damn my brain, it's trying to characterise this as a system of equations.]
And I'd go out on a limb and say your guess is dead wrong. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to say that working hard in college for academics and student orgs and studying and whatnot is a bad thing. At the same time, those people that say that college is purely for academics and that's all you should be doing are incredibly naive. You need social skills, and you don't learn those through just studying, doing academic work, and being involved in organizations. You learn that from actually socializing. If you aren't at least moderately sociable, you won't come across well in interviews, you won't be able to get along well with co-workers, and you will be overall less desirable in the vast majority of job situations.
Oh, and not to mention that constantly working/studying is incredibly bad for mental health. It's a very common problem in Asian countries, and its even become a big problem in America.
In most colleges (expecially large ones) you can find whatever suits your tastes. There are plenty of academic and serious groups and places in so called "party schools," and there are always a bunch of crazy shit and parties going down in the academically high achieving schools. Maybe this is different for small colleges but there should not be a problem with finding fun or study in any medium to large college.
So unless the colleges are tiny, I think the real problem is that some people stereotype Asians and aren't comfortable being a minority and being surrounded by people of a different race. I find it hard to believe that there is any trouble finding Asians who like to party and socialize. The problem is that these kids are intimidated by the unknown and are unwilling to immerse themselves with different people.
On May 04 2011 11:21 Slow Motion wrote: In most colleges (expecially large ones) you can find whatever suits your tastes. There are plenty of academic and serious groups and places in so called "party schools," and there are always a bunch of crazy shit and parties going down in the academically high achieving schools. Maybe this is different for small colleges but there should not be a problem with finding fun or study in any medium to large college.
So unless the colleges are tiny, I think the real problem is that some people stereotype Asians and aren't comfortable being a minority and being surrounded by people of a different race. I find it hard to believe that there is any trouble finding Asians who like to party and socialize. The problem is that these kids are intimidated by the unknown and are unwilling to immerse themselves with different people.
I think the street goes both ways. Like other posters and the article says, Asians tend to identify with their ethnicity because they're singled out as being really "nerdy" or "anti-social". This leads to them not being open to people of different groups, which makes other groups not open to Asian students. It's a vicious cycle that I've seen at several campuses around my area. The Asian populations of most schools around here really stick together and rarely socialize with others (obviously there are exceptions, it's not a hard and fast rule). It makes it hard to try to socialize with Asian students because people get the vibe that the Asian students don't want you talking to them, while at the same time many Asians do it simply because they feel like they aren't welcome and white/other students don't want to talk to them.
If there's one thing I've learned in my 4 years of college, it's that your 4.0 GPA and your countless hours of studying mean jack shit. Sure, you're smarter and better versed in theoretical concepts than your party-going peers, but connections get jobs. That half-retarded frat boy shotgunning beers on the campus green? Yeah, he's going to have a job after graduation. The socially inept asian (in the sense of the article, not necessarily from asia) will have a much harder time without inroads to top positions.
That said, a 4.0 GPA in a difficult degree is still one hell of an accomplishment, and will most likely lead to a decent job, even if it takes searching for. But then what? How do you expect to move up the corporate ladder without social skills? The highest paying jobs aren't quant jobs, they're customer-facing. No manager in his right mind would put the asian (once again, not literally), no matter how brilliant, in front of valued client when his lack of social skills is apparent. Study skills work as a threshold requirement: beyond a certain level, you're qualified for a certain job. Social skills allow growth beyond that threshold.
On May 04 2011 11:38 contraSol wrote: If there's one thing I've learned in my 4 years of college, it's that your 4.0 GPA and your countless hours of studying mean jack shit. Sure, you're smarter and better versed in theoretical concepts than your party-going peers, but connections get jobs. That half-retarded frat boy shotgunning beers on the campus green? Yeah, he's going to have a job after graduation. The socially inept asian (in the sense of the article, not necessarily from asia) will have a much harder time without inroads to top positions.
That said, a 4.0 GPA in a difficult degree is still one hell of an accomplishment, and will most likely lead to a decent job, even if it takes searching for. But then what? How do you expect to move up the corporate ladder without social skills? The highest paying jobs aren't quant jobs, they're customer-facing. No manager in his right mind would put the asian (once again, not literally), no matter how brilliant, in front of valued client when his lack of social skills is apparent. Study skills work as a threshold requirement: beyond a certain level, you're qualified for a certain job. Social skills allow growth beyond that threshold.
I'm guessing you don't have a 4.0 in college, right? Because if you did, you'd know it actually opens A LOT of doors for employment. You'd also be surprised that the 4.0 GPA person might actually be a more socially capable person than you are, but can say no to socializing during crucial periods of the year to actually make the grades. Top firms know this because the people there were exactly those type of people - who can juggle everything (life, social, volunteer, job) and still have killer grades. It snot like they are ignorant of the fact that you need social skills...
Regardless, a 4.0 college GPA is going to get you first in line for employment in many fields, especially in this economy. With a 4.0 GPA, it is your job to prove the employer wrong about hiring you. With a 3.0, it is your job to prove the employer is wrong to pass you over. Tell me which is easier.
It is very easy to understand if you think from the other side:
I studied in an international school before, the majority of the students actually Chinese that are born in foreign countries and come back due to the career of their parents.
I do not see white students from US and Canada trying to learn Chinese; they love to drink, do drugs, go partying. They are not trying to embrace our nerdy culture where you read manga, play computer games and go watch movies. They do not even like to wear our gender neutral fashion, they are just so all American. Now can you call those white students "not socializing" and not making social network within the "next big superpower" country?
I don't really understand why there is much argument in this thread.
There are really three points that are pretty clear, and it's almost the same silly argument that Koreans are better at starcraft because they're Korean. Asians are not better at school because they are Asian. Their family environment and cultural biases stress achievement through merit.
1) Universities don't have one clear goal set such as "Colleges should stress Academia first and foremost". You can find all types of universities just as you can find all types of businesses. What does this mean? It means that some universities will value grades and some will value social atmosphere, some will value a mix and some will value appearances. Find the one that fits what you need from them. Don't expect them to change to suit you.
2) There are pressures in the United States to continue to uphold the "white agenda". This applies to universities as much as anywhere else. I'm a white middle class 25 yr old male. I can tell you that there is nothing my grandparents and parents are more scared of than losing their status quo / 'right to wealth/prosperity/"american dream"' to minorities. I believe in a meritocracy, but there's just no way that people are going to adapt to change well enough to behave in ways that aren't intrinsically valuable.
3) This is a subset of the last point, but the world is shrinking in the sense that travel is much easier. There is more and more access to other cultures and other locations than ever before. Hell, the internet is still a shocking technology to some people/places. There is almost no way to expect a resolution to this type of problem in the short term. In some sense, the United States has always been a 'melting pot' so we "might" be the first country to come to terms with being "fair" rather than protecting the status quo - but most countries in the world will be holding on to their history and their nationalism for dear life. If it became economically viable, I wouldn't expect Japanese schools to admit 70% Indian/Russian students in math programs, give them fair hiring practices, and leadership opportunities in top businesses. We can't expect that in America/Canada/Europe either, in the short term.
On May 04 2011 08:16 Keone wrote: As an Canadian Asian at a "top ivy league" US university...
I'm completely 100% against affirmative action. Instead, universities should change what they're looking for. Instead of basing everything off of grades and SATs, make sure they're well rounded students. Don't just check the APs, don't just check math competitions, but see their extracurricular results as well.
Affirmative action, in my opinion, is a sad and unfortunate reasoning that ultimately has no base in reason. No student in the world should be turned away just because of their race, if their credentials are over what's necessary.
However, the obvious solution is to change the credentials, and I see this as a totally acceptable method. Although academics are important, there are so many more external factors that make a person successful (however you define that) later in life. Interpersonal relationships, teamwork, speaking ability, leadership ability, motivation, personal drive, etc. A lot of US schools, and Canadian universities too, place too much emphasis on pure academics. If I can offer a crappy analogy, you don't become a great basketball player just because you can shoot the ball in the net perfectly from anywhere. You've gotta move, understand teamwork, understand strategy, flow, defense, offense, etc... just like in life, you can't expect to rely on one aspect to pull you through in everything.
Having said all that, it's very possible that even with these credentials changed, asians still could be proportionally high. That's pretty much what happened at my high school. My school was split down the middle, as if a racist deity drew an invisible line down the center of each class. In order to distinguish themselves from the "fobs", white highschool kids would only keep to themselves, talk down on the asian students, and pretty much became the bums, crackheads, and potheads of my school. It's not that they were stupid, but they literally made themselves do badly in school. On the other hand, asians like myself studied our asses off, and actually competed amongst each other, while also engaging in a ton of extracurricular activities because, essentially, other asian students were doing those activities. At the end of the day, (in my school), you've got an asian student who's done well academically and in extracurriculars, and you've got a white student who's failed both and is smoking pot every weekend with his friends. No credentials are going to save that.
Pretty much, what I'm babbling about is that racism is a ridiculous cycle. Racism in our schools causes divisions within students, and those divisions to some extent are why Asians perform better in schools. Of course, some schools have the exact opposite trend, where Asians gang together and become idiots who drive around rice rockets smoking on sidewalks, and the white kids do well and go to good schools. Nothing is strictly polarized in one way, but they are polarized, in one way or another. It just so happens that Asian parents generally really drill their kids to do well academically, (not trying to start a tiger mom argument here), and they end up doing well in high school. College is a different story altogether, not going to go into that.
As for short term, colleges really have to get rid of this affirmative action nonsense. That is blatant racism to the highest degree, no matter how you try and dress that up with excuses. Saying you want a balanced and diverse campus is essentially saying you don't want too much of any one race, which is by its very nature, racist.
The problem with your plan is twofold: 1. A majority of students' extracurricular activities are sports in high school, obviously most will nto be able to participate in college. 2. Extracurricular activities have almost no relation to success in school. If Harvard and other Ivies had honest grading curves these people who get improved ranking because of participating in sports they would fail. As it is Harvard fails relatively few people because it (and most ivies) are increasingly intellectually dishonest.
I don't understand these "problems". I never said anything about extracurriculars being directly transferable in college. So what if you stop a sport when you enter college? The skills you learn in being in a sport, endurance, perseverance, teamwork, etc., are what's important and subconsciously stay with you. And as for "extracurricular activities have almost no relation to success in school"... your point being? Schools aren't trying to accept just the nerdiest of nerds, some of them actually care about the future success of their students. And just being an average nerd with 0 interpersonal skills isn't probably going to get you far. And just in case you didn't know, when you leave college and try and get a job, GPA is important, but what you did outside of school is very important too.
It's probably because you've never been in a legit job interview yet. Once you're there, the only things that matter are the things you don't learn in a classroom. GPA doesn't matter once you've got the first interview. It's those extra skills you pick up outside that matter, and will probably what make you happy and make you a student that contributes something back to the university. Which is essentially what all universities want.
When I graduated highschool....most of the students had a certain philosophy: Go to University of Western Ontario Business; if you can't make business, get into any program in Western possible; if you can't do that, go to a community college near Western so you can party with them....
On May 04 2011 11:38 contraSol wrote: If there's one thing I've learned in my 4 years of college, it's that your 4.0 GPA and your countless hours of studying mean jack shit. Sure, you're smarter and better versed in theoretical concepts than your party-going peers, but connections get jobs. That half-retarded frat boy shotgunning beers on the campus green? Yeah, he's going to have a job after graduation. The socially inept asian (in the sense of the article, not necessarily from asia) will have a much harder time without inroads to top positions.
That said, a 4.0 GPA in a difficult degree is still one hell of an accomplishment, and will most likely lead to a decent job, even if it takes searching for. But then what? How do you expect to move up the corporate ladder without social skills? The highest paying jobs aren't quant jobs, they're customer-facing. No manager in his right mind would put the asian (once again, not literally), no matter how brilliant, in front of valued client when his lack of social skills is apparent. Study skills work as a threshold requirement: beyond a certain level, you're qualified for a certain job. Social skills allow growth beyond that threshold.
I'm curious as to what "top positions" and "customer-facing" jobs you're referring to (i.e. what kind of work). There aren't a ton of generic office/business/"customer-facing" positions out there just waiting to be filled by the legions of university graduates with degrees in stuff like philosophy, women's studies, sociology, psychology, English, geography, anthropology, etc. Undergrad for most people (for most fields of study) is only a stepping-stone to grad school/medical school/law school etc -- all of which require good marks. The last time I checked the cut-off for med school here was something like a 4.0 GPA.
Regardless of how socially adept you are, you're unlikely to get any job with an undergraduate degree alone unless you're in engineering, computer science, actuarial science or some other of the small number of other technical fields (NB: that hire people based on their academic qualifications with little regard to social skills). So neither your caricaturist beer-swilling frat boy or socially inept Asian would be likely to get any job at all if they were studying humanities or social sciences or one of the many completely practically useless fields (from an employment perspective)--unless they're using their high GPA to go to grad/med school etc.
Can somebody please explain to me what the problem is?
The only 'problem' i got from it is that some mother said "immigrants stole my son's spot in whatever university"
....i'm sorry WHAT!? LOL
Canada is a country made of immigrants. There are several universities and the reason why they 'stole' your son's spot is because another student had a higher average than your son.
Who the hell cares if hes asian, mexican, black, or alien, they performed better in high school
On May 04 2011 11:38 contraSol wrote: If there's one thing I've learned in my 4 years of college, it's that your 4.0 GPA and your countless hours of studying mean jack shit. Sure, you're smarter and better versed in theoretical concepts than your party-going peers, but connections get jobs. That half-retarded frat boy shotgunning beers on the campus green? Yeah, he's going to have a job after graduation. The socially inept asian (in the sense of the article, not necessarily from asia) will have a much harder time without inroads to top positions.
That said, a 4.0 GPA in a difficult degree is still one hell of an accomplishment, and will most likely lead to a decent job, even if it takes searching for. But then what? How do you expect to move up the corporate ladder without social skills? The highest paying jobs aren't quant jobs, they're customer-facing. No manager in his right mind would put the asian (once again, not literally), no matter how brilliant, in front of valued client when his lack of social skills is apparent. Study skills work as a threshold requirement: beyond a certain level, you're qualified for a certain job. Social skills allow growth beyond that threshold.
This entire post reeks of the implication that working hard and getting a 4.0 GPA means a lack of social skills, which is just plain stupid. Have you ever even been to college (obviously, you have, but that makes your post seem even more ignorant in that you've had first-hand experience yet you're still so wrong) and interacted with top-performing peers? They are perfectly sociable people, who simply know how to buckle down and study/work hard when the situation calls for it. Sounds like you were one of those people who didn't do well in school and rationalized your lacking GPA by projecting some fallacious notion of social incompetence upon those who get good grades. Psh.
On May 04 2011 12:25 Zedders wrote: i read the article.
Can somebody please explain to me what the problem is?
The only 'problem' i got from it is that some mother said "immigrants stole my son's spot in whatever university"
....i'm sorry WHAT!? LOL
Canada is a country made of immigrants. There are several universities and the reason why they 'stole' your son's spot is because another student had a higher average than your son.
Who the hell cares if hes asian, mexican, black, or alien, they performed better in high school
It isn't "immigrants stole my university spot". A majority of the university students are residents or citizens. The non-issue that Macleans is raising is that certain universities have a disproportionate amount of Chinese students. For example, Toronto is about 18% Chinese, yet over 30% of the undegraduate students in University of Toronto are of Chinese ethnicity. Canadian university admissions are based on meritocracy, your race is totally irrelevant to your admissions, which is the way it should be. All the right people are going into university, high marks and good extra-curriculars, it just so happens that they are Chinese.
This "Too Asian" issue applies to Asian universities too. Strictly speaking, it's more of "Too PRC or Indian".
Singapore's universities are being overwhelmed by large groups of South Asian and China-Chinese students, especially in the Engineering and Science colleges. Individually they are not very different from the local Singaporeans, but when they get together in a group (which is often) they tend to form cultural ghettos or become obnoxious.
Of course, the lack of integration can also be traced to the lack of willingness of local Singaporeans to interact with the foreign students; regardless though, the clash of cultures combined with the perceived academic superiority of the foreign students does raise tensions.
I am graduating from high school this year, and have been accepted into the University of British Columbia (henceforth known as UBC).
I am also Chinese.
I'm am in no way saying I have a 4.0GPA or anything, but your average does have to pretty damn high in order to have even a decent chance of getting into UBC. Sure I worked my ass off for it, but I still have time to socialize and do stuff out of school. I even got my Pilot's License recently.
But the point I want to stress is that it doesn't matter what race you are, put the effort into your work and results will show.
And for the record, I emigrated to Canada from England.
I fail to see how few posters established that solid GPA must be accompanied by awful social skills and having a sub-par GPA means that you are a social butterfly -_-.
Oh, and good luck to the Asians trying to get a job at UofT. Most companies that come on campus to hire don't even go there anymore, because of so many Asian students who excel in everything but communicating in English. According to several friends who graduated, UofT is the nearly the worst choice for anything wishing to go to school in Toronto. You'd have a better chance in Seneca.
Alright this is a long-ass thread and everyone seems to be saying similar things over and over.
Here is what I understand is the general consensus
1) Generalisations don’t apply to everybody. Obvious but this article and the comments tend to lump all “Asians” as those that work hard to get into a great University and get amazing grades etc. Obviously there will be variance in the population and the author states one of the main reasons for the discrepancy, namely selective immigration.
2) Universities should accept based on academic merit This one is more questionable. As discussed by
a) The main desire an institute of higher learning is not just to educate, but to have graduates who become extraordinary figures in society, so that the reputation of the university is improved by their association with these people.
The primary motivation of an admittance office is to identify the people who have the innate talent to become the movers and shakers of society.
b) Historically, the main method that has been used to identify those with the potential to become an extraordinary figure is through the traditional admittance process - standardized test scores, past academic performance, and analysis of "intangibles" that translate into displays of independent thought and leadership qualities.
c) Race, ethnicity, or gender do not equate with the innate potential to become an extraordinary figure. All people are equally likely to possess the potential to become an extraordinary figure.
d) This identification process has been so thoroughly mapped out that parents of children who desire to see them admitted into top-flight universities push their children into "emulating" this potential, whether or not the child may or may not possess the innate desire or abilities of an extraordinary individual.
e) Asian cultures traditionally hold certain values higher than Western Cultures, and Western Cultures traditionally hold certain values higher than Asian cultures.
f) The values of Asian cultures contribute to a systematic increase in "measured" potential among children raised with those values using traditional methods of identification - standardized tests, academic GPA, and "intangibles" which supposedly reflect independent thought and leadership.
g) This systematic increase in measured potential to become an extraordinary figure does not correlate with actual potential to become an extraordinary figure. (see postulate c)
f) Therefore, the measurement system is flawed.
h) A new system of measurement being yet unproven or unfeasible due to the scale of university education, admissions officers must attempt to "correct" for this error, or suffer reduced efficiency in identifying future extraordinary figures.
If we assume that Universities are supposed to breed people graduates with outstanding academic capability then the merit system works. If social skills need to be included then perhaps a different system needs to be worked out.
3) People get angry when race is mentioned.
4) Minorities tend to stick together. This may be obvious but of course it doesn’t only apply to Asians. Why is it that there are international schools in Asian countries? So the ex-pats can send their kids to a school with similar values, language etc to the ones back home.
5) The “Asian” students tend to do “better” than the non-Asian students.
I’m not sure if there are stats to back this up but it seems to be perception of people. Again, see point 1. If we accept this there are questions regarding the influence of culture, immigration, entry policies etc. There is no simple answer to this. People seem to be in agreement that this isn’t a bad thing but is the result of the skew on people entering University and their perceived work habits.
These points are what seem to stick out to me from what has been discussed. I want to raise some more interesting questions.
If we assume that the “Asian” students are being over-represented in Universities. If we take the premise of this article and follow it through that Asians will get better grades because they work harder. That they tend to stick within their groupings, what does this actually mean?
To me the above data shows that there are relatively larger numbers of wealthy people from an Asian background than there has been previously. It would be expected that the number of international students applying to well known universities would also increase in line with the above. This is somewhat born out by the growth in Australian university acceptances.
I know it is a media release but the figures still stand. A 21.5% increase is nothing to sneeze at. As discussed above this has something to do with the increased relationships between the west and the east in general.
So what am I getting at?
From my understanding we have a large growing population that is increasing in wealth and is looking to send their students to international Universities. This means that there is an over-representation of Asian students at Universities. Tertiary education is correlated with greater income. Asian students have a reputation for getting good grades.
The attitude this article represents seems to be the last bastion of a failing elite. It is clear that now and in the future there will be more Asian achievers both at University and in the general work environment in the Western world.
If minorities are not integrated this may lead to some social conflicts in the future. University is the ideal place to learn how to integrate. This is the problem that I think the article blindly misses. Regardless of the merit question, or validity of the reputation, if Asian students do not integrate into the local culture, social division will be manifest.
This is not a one-way street. Societies embrace the economic benefits of immigrants but lose out if they fail to integrate minorities. If Universities gain a reputation for accepting particular minorities this is a sign of a society that is unwilling to accept that the cultural fabric is changing. They should gain reputation for what they provide, not who they accept. As Chill put it
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!). + Show Spoiler +
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
So the question I want to raise is how do we integrate minorities into our culture at University? It is clear from the comments above me that both “sides” of this debate have much to learn from each other. How do we get that moving?
As for me, I have always been the odd one out. I have sort out people from different backgrounds because I truly believe that is the best way to enrich your learning experience. Hell it is worth it just for the food.
Sorry for the essay but sometimes complicated things require a complicated answer.
Where I live there is a massive Italian community, and everyone sticks together because that is what they are familiar with. My grandmother lived in Canada for 60 years and spoke very poor English. Just the other day I saw a man in traffic court unable to speak to the judge without an interpreter, but I'll bet he came over here from Italy more than 50 years go. This is a very common thing.
The same thing is happening with the Chinese. They come over here in large groups and stick together, speaking their own language and dealing with their own people because that is what they are familiar with and it is easier for them. It is understandable but damaging to society. The difference now is that the Italians that came were mostly tradespeople, but the Chinese that are coming are skilled workers with hardworking children who are taking up valuable positions at universities and in the workplace.
The main problem with society now is that it is so diversity focused that it is downright racist. Universities will give preference to 'visible minority' (non-white) students to show that they are diverse and accepting of everyone. So, Asian students fill the universities and thus drive the culture in less-friendly directions because of the visual and cultural segregation between students. This also happens in the workplace.
So what's the main problem? Well: Asian culture and Western culture do not mix. Asians come from overpopulated countries where there are so many people vying for so little opportunity that if you don't work your absolute hardest and screw a few people along the way, then you will be screwed yourself. So they come over and apply the same work ethic in a culture where that is much more rare, thus out-competing the locals for opportunities both to work and get into university.
The universities with the best reputations will go first because they care most about academic standing, research achievements accredited to their people, and work achievements accredited to their people. This is why Waterloo and UofT are packed with Asians. Lesser schools like Brock, Western, and York don't suffer as much, but go to their business schools and it's the same thing all over again.
You can't repair this - no one will try to get along beyond maintaining general civility. People like to stick with the familiar too much for this to change. + Show Spoiler +
Say you walk into a room and there are two cliques of people standing and talking to each other; one is your race and the other is... I dunno... Sikh. Regardless of your feelings towards Sikhs, would you not approach the group of people who look like you every single time? Barring if anyone looked particularly sketchy, I would.
Honestly, the best thing to do is try and improve socioeconomic conditions elsewhere in the world, so everyone can go back to their own countries and live happily ever after in a culture and among peoples that they are most familiar with. If everyone is doing well, what is wrong with that?
P.S.: If you need more evidence: Waterloo has the best CSL (Starcraft) team in North America.