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Too Asian? - An Article on Universities - Page 16

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VIB
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Brazil3567 Posts
May 03 2011 22:16 GMT
#301
Guys no one uses "IQ" seriously in 2011 anymore, that's some outdated methodology
Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people.
hmmm...
Profile Joined March 2011
632 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-03 22:25:35
May 03 2011 22:24 GMT
#302
There's not too much Asians can do with regards to the discriminatory admissions policies of Ivy League and other private schools (incl. publics too but anyways). No amount of bs-ing and raising awareness will change that.

I think the key is to understand that although in Asia, social upclassing through merit is possible, that is not always the case here.

In some American sectors, it's an all-out White male's club; if you don't fit into their WASP culture, they just won't hire you. In other American sectors, they look for teamwork and they will likely pick Whites who are more culturally identifiable; Asians are not incapable of working as a team. But the widespread stereotypes will inevitably influence the perceptions of recruiters. And obviously, there's going to be racism at all levels; some hospitals won't hire nurses with bad english accents, law firms will hire asian associates and burn them out, but not make them partner, etc.

It's not really surprising that White Americans are racist against Asians. Throughout history, there's always been this sense of cultural inferiority; if it was more pronounced in the past, today it still exists but only behind the mask of political-correctness. Asians have to battle against their increasing odds and although unfair, you live with whatever you've been given. It's better to win against the odds and increase Asian's cultural capital now, so that in future generations, discrimination in the US can be diminished.

User was warned for this post
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25979 Posts
May 03 2011 22:30 GMT
#303
On May 04 2011 07:24 hmmm... wrote:
There's not too much Asians can do with regards to the discriminatory admissions policies of Ivy League and other private schools (incl. publics too but anyways). No amount of bs-ing and raising awareness will change that.

I think the key is to understand that although in Asia, social upclassing through merit is possible, that is not always the case here.

In some American sectors, it's an all-out White male's club; if you don't fit into their WASP culture, they just won't hire you. In other American sectors, they look for teamwork and they will likely pick Whites who are more culturally identifiable; Asians are not incapable of working as a team. But the widespread stereotypes will inevitably influence the perceptions of recruiters. And obviously, there's going to be racism at all levels; some hospitals won't hire nurses with bad english accents, law firms will hire asian associates and burn them out, but not make them partner, etc.

It's not really surprising that White Americans are racist against Asians. Throughout history, there's always been this sense of cultural inferiority; if it was more pronounced in the past, today it still exists but only behind the mask of political-correctness. Asians have to battle against their increasing odds and although unfair, you live with whatever you've been given. It's better to win against the odds and increase Asian's cultural capital now, so that in future generations, discrimination in the US can be diminished.

Do you have any sources for that whatsoever?
Moderator
moltenlead
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada866 Posts
May 03 2011 22:50 GMT
#304
I wouldn't go so far as what you said but I would not disagree that with a completely even match, some companies may give preference to a white person over an asian. I would not generalize on that point too far though.

However, the article went too far in portraying a complete blackout scenario. I remember the countless articles that were brought up against it when the article just came out.

Also, each private school has it's own idiots as students. Unfortunately, they picked some of the most biased students of the pool.

Chill: If you really think that there is no discrimination against foreign executives in American companies, look at the CEOs/Execs of the Forbes companies. Asians may not be discriminated against for hiring, but it has been proven several times over that they have a glass ceiling.
ChThoniC
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States536 Posts
May 03 2011 23:03 GMT
#305
On May 04 2011 07:50 moltenlead wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as what you said but I would not disagree that with a completely even match, some companies may give preference to a white person over an asian. I would not generalize on that point too far though.

However, the article went too far in portraying a complete blackout scenario. I remember the countless articles that were brought up against it when the article just came out.

Also, each private school has it's own idiots as students. Unfortunately, they picked some of the most biased students of the pool.

Chill: If you really think that there is no discrimination against foreign executives in American companies, look at the CEOs/Execs of the Forbes companies. Asians may not be discriminated against for hiring, but it has been proven several times over that they have a glass ceiling.


The stereotypical strict Asian parent raising a child to overachieve and succeed isn't for the end goal of their child becoming a CEO, but rather something like doctor, engineer, etc.
i c u
funnybananaman
Profile Joined April 2009
United States830 Posts
May 03 2011 23:16 GMT
#306
Very interesting article, however one has to consider that all colleges and universities want to build a level of diversity in their schools and they actively consider that during the application process and this doesn't only affect Asians. Women have a lot harder time getting in to top colleges because there are more of them applying, whereas a Native American person from rural wyoming would have an advantage because they are so unique. And they want people with different interests and/or qualities.

To me the "too asian" problem sounds like its more of a "too nerdy" problem or something of that nature. As a white kid soon applying to college i wouldn't really care if a school was 40% asian if they were interesting people, but i definitely wouldn't want to go to a school where 40% of the kids don't do anything because they're confucius wannabes studying 8 hours a day to get 2400 SATs.

So while people at Universities seem to think those two groups go together perhaps more often than is the case for other races i think schools need to differentiate between "Asians" and academic tryhards that can't do anything but fill in bubbles on a test and build a nice resume. I wouldn't want those kids at my school either. As mentioned in the article, placing more prevalence on interviews and/or looking for kids who have leadership potential/common sense or just seem interesting ALONG with getting good grades wouldn't be a bad idea.
Keone
Profile Joined April 2011
United States812 Posts
May 03 2011 23:16 GMT
#307
As an Canadian Asian at a "top ivy league" US university...

I'm completely 100% against affirmative action. Instead, universities should change what they're looking for. Instead of basing everything off of grades and SATs, make sure they're well rounded students. Don't just check the APs, don't just check math competitions, but see their extracurricular results as well.

Affirmative action, in my opinion, is a sad and unfortunate reasoning that ultimately has no base in reason. No student in the world should be turned away just because of their race, if their credentials are over what's necessary.

However, the obvious solution is to change the credentials, and I see this as a totally acceptable method. Although academics are important, there are so many more external factors that make a person successful (however you define that) later in life. Interpersonal relationships, teamwork, speaking ability, leadership ability, motivation, personal drive, etc. A lot of US schools, and Canadian universities too, place too much emphasis on pure academics. If I can offer a crappy analogy, you don't become a great basketball player just because you can shoot the ball in the net perfectly from anywhere. You've gotta move, understand teamwork, understand strategy, flow, defense, offense, etc... just like in life, you can't expect to rely on one aspect to pull you through in everything.

Having said all that, it's very possible that even with these credentials changed, asians still could be proportionally high. That's pretty much what happened at my high school. My school was split down the middle, as if a racist deity drew an invisible line down the center of each class. In order to distinguish themselves from the "fobs", white highschool kids would only keep to themselves, talk down on the asian students, and pretty much became the bums, crackheads, and potheads of my school. It's not that they were stupid, but they literally made themselves do badly in school. On the other hand, asians like myself studied our asses off, and actually competed amongst each other, while also engaging in a ton of extracurricular activities because, essentially, other asian students were doing those activities. At the end of the day, (in my school), you've got an asian student who's done well academically and in extracurriculars, and you've got a white student who's failed both and is smoking pot every weekend with his friends. No credentials are going to save that.

Pretty much, what I'm babbling about is that racism is a ridiculous cycle. Racism in our schools causes divisions within students, and those divisions to some extent are why Asians perform better in schools. Of course, some schools have the exact opposite trend, where Asians gang together and become idiots who drive around rice rockets smoking on sidewalks, and the white kids do well and go to good schools. Nothing is strictly polarized in one way, but they are polarized, in one way or another. It just so happens that Asian parents generally really drill their kids to do well academically, (not trying to start a tiger mom argument here), and they end up doing well in high school. College is a different story altogether, not going to go into that.

As for short term, colleges really have to get rid of this affirmative action nonsense. That is blatant racism to the highest degree, no matter how you try and dress that up with excuses. Saying you want a balanced and diverse campus is essentially saying you don't want too much of any one race, which is by its very nature, racist.
BW Forever. Flash is the Ultimate Bonjwa.
Sanitarium14
Profile Joined April 2010
United States141 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-03 23:28:06
May 03 2011 23:27 GMT
#308
Is nobody going to bring up Indian students as well? Going to an international school in highschool, every Indian person was "discriminated" against in the same exact way, I remember Embry-Riddle came, and the man from the school brought up all of his concerns that we were "losing our country to foreigners." His theory is that they will get educated, then just leave, and cause america to lose its great power status. Imagine his dismay when he learned we were all asian and indian (besides me, fooling him to come here)

And to the person above me, its sadly true. I discovered this, and applied to a charter school, which is thing is much better for a highschool...but school size and budget cuts weaken it.
eh?
Consolidate
Profile Joined February 2010
United States829 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-03 23:33:05
May 03 2011 23:32 GMT
#309
On May 04 2011 07:30 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2011 07:24 hmmm... wrote:
There's not too much Asians can do with regards to the discriminatory admissions policies of Ivy League and other private schools (incl. publics too but anyways). No amount of bs-ing and raising awareness will change that.

I think the key is to understand that although in Asia, social upclassing through merit is possible, that is not always the case here.

In some American sectors, it's an all-out White male's club; if you don't fit into their WASP culture, they just won't hire you. In other American sectors, they look for teamwork and they will likely pick Whites who are more culturally identifiable; Asians are not incapable of working as a team. But the widespread stereotypes will inevitably influence the perceptions of recruiters. And obviously, there's going to be racism at all levels; some hospitals won't hire nurses with bad english accents, law firms will hire asian associates and burn them out, but not make them partner, etc.

It's not really surprising that White Americans are racist against Asians. Throughout history, there's always been this sense of cultural inferiority; if it was more pronounced in the past, today it still exists but only behind the mask of political-correctness. Asians have to battle against their increasing odds and although unfair, you live with whatever you've been given. It's better to win against the odds and increase Asian's cultural capital now, so that in future generations, discrimination in the US can be diminished.

Do you have any sources for that whatsoever?


Because so many people in this thread are giving sources to back up their opinions. I really don't see why the guy was warned.
Creature posessed the the spirit of inquiry and bloodlust - Adventure Time
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19573 Posts
May 03 2011 23:39 GMT
#310
On May 04 2011 08:16 Keone wrote:
As an Canadian Asian at a "top ivy league" US university...

I'm completely 100% against affirmative action. Instead, universities should change what they're looking for. Instead of basing everything off of grades and SATs, make sure they're well rounded students. Don't just check the APs, don't just check math competitions, but see their extracurricular results as well.

Affirmative action, in my opinion, is a sad and unfortunate reasoning that ultimately has no base in reason. No student in the world should be turned away just because of their race, if their credentials are over what's necessary.

However, the obvious solution is to change the credentials, and I see this as a totally acceptable method. Although academics are important, there are so many more external factors that make a person successful (however you define that) later in life. Interpersonal relationships, teamwork, speaking ability, leadership ability, motivation, personal drive, etc. A lot of US schools, and Canadian universities too, place too much emphasis on pure academics. If I can offer a crappy analogy, you don't become a great basketball player just because you can shoot the ball in the net perfectly from anywhere. You've gotta move, understand teamwork, understand strategy, flow, defense, offense, etc... just like in life, you can't expect to rely on one aspect to pull you through in everything.

Having said all that, it's very possible that even with these credentials changed, asians still could be proportionally high. That's pretty much what happened at my high school. My school was split down the middle, as if a racist deity drew an invisible line down the center of each class. In order to distinguish themselves from the "fobs", white highschool kids would only keep to themselves, talk down on the asian students, and pretty much became the bums, crackheads, and potheads of my school. It's not that they were stupid, but they literally made themselves do badly in school. On the other hand, asians like myself studied our asses off, and actually competed amongst each other, while also engaging in a ton of extracurricular activities because, essentially, other asian students were doing those activities. At the end of the day, (in my school), you've got an asian student who's done well academically and in extracurriculars, and you've got a white student who's failed both and is smoking pot every weekend with his friends. No credentials are going to save that.

Pretty much, what I'm babbling about is that racism is a ridiculous cycle. Racism in our schools causes divisions within students, and those divisions to some extent are why Asians perform better in schools. Of course, some schools have the exact opposite trend, where Asians gang together and become idiots who drive around rice rockets smoking on sidewalks, and the white kids do well and go to good schools. Nothing is strictly polarized in one way, but they are polarized, in one way or another. It just so happens that Asian parents generally really drill their kids to do well academically, (not trying to start a tiger mom argument here), and they end up doing well in high school. College is a different story altogether, not going to go into that.

As for short term, colleges really have to get rid of this affirmative action nonsense. That is blatant racism to the highest degree, no matter how you try and dress that up with excuses. Saying you want a balanced and diverse campus is essentially saying you don't want too much of any one race, which is by its very nature, racist.


The problem with your plan is twofold:
1. A majority of students' extracurricular activities are sports in high school, obviously most will nto be able to participate in college.
2. Extracurricular activities have almost no relation to success in school. If Harvard and other Ivies had honest grading curves these people who get improved ranking because of participating in sports they would fail. As it is Harvard fails relatively few people because it (and most ivies) are increasingly intellectually dishonest.
Freeeeeeedom
LGOE
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Canada18 Posts
May 03 2011 23:42 GMT
#311
they mad coz they bad (at skewl)

User was warned for this post
Ethic
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Canada439 Posts
May 03 2011 23:50 GMT
#312
Asians come from a culture where you respect your parents and your elders.

In today's North American culture, we no longer really respect our parents and elders sadly enough.

This is why Asians do better.
SC2 ID: Ethic.791 - 1v1 DIAMOND - SHILOH UPSILON
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
May 03 2011 23:59 GMT
#313
I don't understand the problem with admitting the students who worked hardest to get where they are. If person A wants it more than person B and works correspondingly harder than he is more worthy.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Vore210
Profile Joined January 2011
Ireland256 Posts
May 04 2011 00:00 GMT
#314
The people who make these policies are obviously of an older generation. They let their nostalgia become a bias, thinking that because they enjoyed their time in education (or that they thought the social aspect was a good system) that they want the same for their children.

One thing that generation after generation fails to realize however is that cultures change, for better or for worse, but regardless of interference the kids of todayand those of 50 years ago and 50 years from now will have different experiences. And when they're adults they will feel the same way as the legislators do, but after having a considerably different journey.

As has been mentioned in this thread Asian kids/teenages/adults have the same drive for fun and enjoyment that we do but sometimes expressed in different ways due to their culture - such as lan parties and game nights as opposed to drinking and partying. Both are just as social as each other, neither is better, and I really cant see it as fair that we decide our way is better for us when in the end the Asians appear to achieve so much more.

In a multicultural society (which I hope will never change) I don't see a good enough argument for people being refused placement due to ethnicity. It just feels too apartheid to me. If an Asian kid works harder, studies harder and is smarter than me then best of luck to them - they SHOULD achieve more.

Honestly, thoughts about people "taking our jobs" or "not participating in OUR version of how you should socialize in college" is beneath anyone who calls themselves a free thinker. We can only be better off if the most intelligent in society regardless of ethnicity get what they deserve.
Light a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, but set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett
LostDevil
Profile Joined March 2005
Fiji283 Posts
May 04 2011 00:32 GMT
#315
I don't understand the article saying that Princeton and other Ivy League schools were discriminating against Asians to keep it WASP. My friend applied to an Ivy along with an Asian kid in his AP classes. My friend was 2nd in his class, all state in sports, captain of his team, and just as high SAT scores as the Asian kid but they took the Asian kid who was ~10th in the class and sat the bench on the sports teams just for "participation". Does not make any sense to me. They were also from the same town even though there may have been some variance income wise.

Maybe the Asian kid played the piano since that seems to make admission people cum all over themselves repeatedly. It is a mystery to me...
-CheekyDuck-
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia398 Posts
May 04 2011 00:35 GMT
#316
Complains Waterloo student Simon Wang, a Chinese national who is frustrated by the segregation at Waterloo: “Why bother to come to Canada and pay five times as much to speak Chinese?”


This upset me, and is so wrong.

I also think uni should be about study not about a good time.
More expensive than a mothership
guN-viCe
Profile Joined March 2010
United States687 Posts
May 04 2011 00:36 GMT
#317
I think the problem is potentially two-fold:

1) African Americans were allowed increased admissions even though they typically had lower test scores(correct if I'm wrong). I think we are seeing something similar here, an attempt to keep some sort of "balance" (or imbalance).

2) As stated in the article, some parents are lying about extra-curricular activities that their children do. Perhaps the Uni's know about this and whenever they see a 4.0GPA and amazing SAT's along with a boatloat of activities, they know it's not always accurate.

Dunno, I'm throwing some stuff out there. I also think, perhaps, people have a fear of Asians taking over.
Never give up, never surrender!!! ~~ Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -Sagan
Mykill
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Canada3402 Posts
May 04 2011 00:40 GMT
#318
On May 04 2011 09:32 LostDevil wrote:
I don't understand the article saying that Princeton and other Ivy League schools were discriminating against Asians to keep it WASP. My friend applied to an Ivy along with an Asian kid in his AP classes. My friend was 2nd in his class, all state in sports, captain of his team, and just as high SAT scores as the Asian kid but they took the Asian kid who was ~10th in the class and sat the bench on the sports teams just for "participation". Does not make any sense to me. They were also from the same town even though there may have been some variance income wise.

Maybe the Asian kid played the piano since that seems to make admission people cum all over themselves repeatedly. It is a mystery to me...


Maybe this "Asian kid" was really good at piano or something else. Did you know him personally? There are thousands of things setting your friend apart from "that asian kid" try to know more before you judge.

All this stereotyping is ridiculous, who cares? Institutions are private organizations they can discriminate all they want if they really want. Blatant discrimination shows in their student body and if that's what a university wants they can do so. The final choice is the SCHOOL's on who not accept of not, it's just because of the equal opportunity bullshit that's blow things out of proportion.

(I'm Asian, from Taiwan living in Canada, I speak english/french/mandarin fluently)
[~~The Impossible Leads To Invention~~] CJ Entusman #52 The problem with internet quotations is that they are hard to verify -Abraham Lincoln c.1863
Soulish
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada1403 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-04 04:10:01
May 04 2011 01:00 GMT
#319
To be honest, if you put in like 1 hour of schoolwork every day, 90% average is achievable in regular circumstances
me all in, he drone drone drone, me win
Jonas :)
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States511 Posts
May 04 2011 01:01 GMT
#320
I'm a sophomore mechanical engineering major at a top 20 engineering school in the US, and there really aren't THAT many asians in my classes. There's generally 2 to 4 or so in my class of like 30 or so people, and while that might not be exactly proportional to the united state's demographics it isn't like our classrooms are being zerg rushed by throngs of asians like some people in this thread are making it out to be.

Also I haven't noticed a trend of said asians being any better at school than anyone else. Like people in the class KNOW who the smart kids are, and with little exceptions those smart kids are Caucasian.

This is at least true for undergrads. The grad students are all asian, lmao
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