|
On May 04 2011 09:32 LostDevil wrote:
I don't understand the article saying that Princeton and other Ivy League schools were discriminating against Asians to keep it WASP. My friend applied to an Ivy along with an Asian kid in his AP classes. My friend was 2nd in his class, all state in sports, captain of his team, and just as high SAT scores as the Asian kid but they took the Asian kid who was ~10th in the class and sat the bench on the sports teams just for "participation". Does not make any sense to me. They were also from the same town even though there may have been some variance income wise.
Maybe the Asian kid played the piano since that seems to make admission people cum all over themselves repeatedly. It is a mystery to me...
There are a lot of things that could have gotten your Asian friend into whatever Ivy we're talking about - better essays, awards, recs, etc.
Fact is that there is a quota on Asians in nearly all private colleges to maintain "diversity," which screws over a lot of Asians that have the right credentials.
|
On November 11 2010 12:05 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote:
Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career. Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways.
And this is the kind of post that basically demonstrates why being socially inept is a bad thing. You have no experience and no grasp of how other people act, so you jump straight to retarded sounding statements.
The social aspect of university education is just as important if not moreso than the academic aspect. Almost one of the most successful people in the world got their solely because they were the smartest, they got there because other people liked them.
|
On May 04 2011 07:24 hmmm... wrote:
There's not too much Asians can do with regards to the discriminatory admissions policies of Ivy League and other private schools (incl. publics too but anyways). No amount of bs-ing and raising awareness will change that.
I think the key is to understand that although in Asia, social upclassing through merit is possible, that is not always the case here.
In some American sectors, it's an all-out White male's club; if you don't fit into their WASP culture, they just won't hire you. In other American sectors, they look for teamwork and they will likely pick Whites who are more culturally identifiable; Asians are not incapable of working as a team. But the widespread stereotypes will inevitably influence the perceptions of recruiters. And obviously, there's going to be racism at all levels; some hospitals won't hire nurses with bad english accents, law firms will hire asian associates and burn them out, but not make them partner, etc.
It's not really surprising that White Americans are racist against Asians. Throughout history, there's always been this sense of cultural inferiority; if it was more pronounced in the past, today it still exists but only behind the mask of political-correctness. Asians have to battle against their increasing odds and although unfair, you live with whatever you've been given. It's better to win against the odds and increase Asian's cultural capital now, so that in future generations, discrimination in the US can be diminished.
User was warned for this post
why was he warned for this? was it really Chill McWhitey asking for references about hegemony and white privilege? take any social science class, white nooby
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On May 04 2011 08:03 ChThoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 07:50 moltenlead wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as what you said but I would not disagree that with a completely even match, some companies may give preference to a white person over an asian. I would not generalize on that point too far though.
However, the article went too far in portraying a complete blackout scenario. I remember the countless articles that were brought up against it when the article just came out.
Also, each private school has it's own idiots as students. Unfortunately, they picked some of the most biased students of the pool.
Chill: If you really think that there is no discrimination against foreign executives in American companies, look at the CEOs/Execs of the Forbes companies. Asians may not be discriminated against for hiring, but it has been proven several times over that they have a glass ceiling. The stereotypical strict Asian parent raising a child to overachieve and succeed isn't for the end goal of their child becoming a CEO, but rather something like doctor, engineer, etc.
So you are saying the glass ceiling (if there is one) is in place not because of discrimination (conscious or subconscious) but because of the fact you think most Asian parents are strict and raise their kids to just be doctors or engineers? :/
|
This is why I'm at a private liberal arts school. The expectation here is that you have damn good academic credentials - what sets you apart from other candidates are the other things that you have that don't relate to academics because people here know that you need a wide breadth of experiences to really be successful in life. You can't just be an academic book worm and really succeed at most things.
|
On May 04 2011 10:11 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 12:05 chenchen wrote:On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote:
Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career. Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways. And this is the kind of post that basically demonstrates why being socially inept is a bad thing. You have no experience and no grasp of how other people act, so you jump straight to retarded sounding statements. The social aspect of university education is just as important if not moreso than the academic aspect. Almost one of the most successful people in the world got their solely because they were the smartest, they got there because other people liked them.
thats not what he said though. maybe if you read the post rather than jump on the first "nerd" for you to call socialy inept you wouldnt look like a complete tool. i disagree with what he said, but jumping on it and calling people social inept is just stupid
hes right. you can have friends, go out, stay in, have a hobby, socialise in any way you want. none of this is intrinsically tied to drink. without exception, every person ive ever met who equates alcohol to having a good time has been a moron who drinks because his/her other moronic friends all force each other into it. people who dont see having a conversation with a friend a fun activity unless they are so wasted that every sentence starts and ends with "well ye dude but ye".
its true, most powerful people in the world get there by who they know not what they know. but its also true that most of these people were also the nerds, the ones who didnt just get drunk, who didnt have orgies every week.
you can have random sex, you can get drunk. the "nerd" attitude to social interation explicitly allows this, but unlike your jock perspective there are also other alternatives.
|
Universities are for higher education learning. If you want to spend ten grand a year on the potential desire to take acyclovir and drink some watered down bud light might I suggest a community college; it will save you in the long run. After you're done acting like a child and with all that extra money saved the possibility of attending a bigboy school is still financially affordable. This is one of the reasons I suggest most people do two years of community and two in a uni for their BA then go to graduate school if thats what they so desire. Kids are still kids right out of high school, they need a few more years of world experience before all that "youthfulness" is less predominant and their decisions less poor.
|
I never understood why people treated college like a party that has a $120k cover charge. If you're paying to go to school, I think you should focus on school. If you're not focused, don't bother wasting your money. Sink it into something that you think is worthwhile.
I don't think it's as much a nationality issue than it is a mentality issue.
|
It's all about balance
You learn things from the Asian culture such as hard work and politeness and assimilate them into your culture/way of life and you also make sure to avoid the downfalls like anti-social-ness and overworking. There's good things to take from any culture, but there isn't one that has all the traits that make an "ideal human" in the way we're talking about here.
Of course all of this doesn't need to be said because everyone knows this deep down, it's just that sometimes people need a reminder amidst all the arguing.
|
As the voice of out generation, I believe Mr. Sheen put it perfectly. "Winning, duh."
If Asians truly are succeeding more, we shouldn't try to stop them. Everyone else should just try to keep up...
You don't pull a winner back, you try to get the losers on their level.
|
On May 04 2011 10:38 TALegion wrote:
As the voice of out generation, I believe Mr. Sheen put it perfectly. "Winning, duh."
If Asians truly are succeeding more, we shouldn't try to stop them. Everyone else should just try to keep up...
You don't pull a winner back, you try to get the losers on their level.
It's like patching Starcraft 2 for the casuals  , I think that would put into better perspective, since most people here are relatively potent at the game. What would you do if Blizzard started to water down the game just to let more casuals join?
|
On May 04 2011 10:25 mell0w wrote:
Universities are for higher education learning. If you want to spend ten grand a year on the potential desire to take acyclovir and drink some watered down bud light might I suggest a community college; it will save you in the long run. After you're done acting like a child and with all that extra money saved the possibility of attending a bigboy school is still financially affordable. This is one of the reasons I suggest most people do two years of community and two in a uni for their BA then go to graduate school if thats what they so desire. Kids are still kids right out of high school, they need a few more years of world experience before all that "youthfulness" is less predominant and their decisions less poor.
Many students come out of college without event the faintest clue about what the real world is like, and this isn't just because they are partying all the time. Many kids focus entirely too much on academics. Just working too hard on academics the entire time in college doesn't teach you what the real world is like. It doesn't prepare you for it any more than being a drunk slob all through college does. To actually be ready for the real world you need a combination of doing well in academics (developing a work ethic/learning knowledge necessary for work) and socializing (learning how to interact with others in various situations and how to relate to others). There are very few fields out there where you can get away with being socially incompetent.
|
On May 04 2011 10:11 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 12:05 chenchen wrote:On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote:
Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career. Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways. And this is the kind of post that basically demonstrates why being socially inept is a bad thing. You have no experience and no grasp of how other people act, so you jump straight to retarded sounding statements. The social aspect of university education is just as important if not moreso than the academic aspect. Almost one of the most successful people in the world got their solely because they were the smartest, they got there because other people liked them.
Chenchen: "Drinking and having orgies aren't the only ways to have fun, and they don't seem very social to me."
Hmunkey: "Everyone look at the nerd! See how socially inept it is! It doesn't understand that success is about being social!"
Drinking and clubbing aren't everyone's cup of tea. I chose to go to an academic university partly because here the people who prefer social studying to social drinking don't stand out much. We have our zones with wireless and many powerpoints, they have a bar. We spend our time there talking, and helping each other to learn because we prefer that to dancing etc.
Our socialisation is no more or less valid than yours.
(I'm at a university that would probably have been called "too asian" by the kids in the article as a white non-wasp. AFAIK the group that has trouble integrating here are the local kids, especially those who enjoy clubbing, because they tend to stick purely with their old school friends and not branch out.)
|
On May 04 2011 10:11 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 12:05 chenchen wrote:On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote:
Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career. Social life and drinking and clubbing are mutually exclusive. If you honestly believe that the only way to have fun in college and to drink and indulge in orgies then you're wrong. I'm sure kids at Waterloo and UofT have fun in other ways. And this is the kind of post that basically demonstrates why being socially inept is a bad thing. You have no experience and no grasp of how other people act, so you jump straight to retarded sounding statements. The social aspect of university education is just as important if not moreso than the academic aspect. Almost one of the most successful people in the world got their solely because they were the smartest, they got there because other people liked them.
Absolute rubbish. University has always been primarily concerned with ACADEMIA.
College isn't some self-help seminar meant to teach people 'social skills'. Next thing you know people will be complaining that they have to study too hard for their doctorates at graduate schools.
Having a 'healthy social life' is a thinly-veiled rationalization made by those who haven't the will or discipline to work hard for extended periods of time.
And people wonder why America graduates so few engineering and hard science majors these days (of the few, most are Asian).
|
On May 04 2011 10:49 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 10:25 mell0w wrote:
Universities are for higher education learning. If you want to spend ten grand a year on the potential desire to take acyclovir and drink some watered down bud light might I suggest a community college; it will save you in the long run. After you're done acting like a child and with all that extra money saved the possibility of attending a bigboy school is still financially affordable. This is one of the reasons I suggest most people do two years of community and two in a uni for their BA then go to graduate school if thats what they so desire. Kids are still kids right out of high school, they need a few more years of world experience before all that "youthfulness" is less predominant and their decisions less poor. Many students come out of college without event the faintest clue about what the real world is like, and this isn't just because they are partying all the time. Many kids focus entirely too much on academics. Just working too hard on academics the entire time in college doesn't teach you what the real world is like. It doesn't prepare you for it any more than being a drunk slob all through college does. To actually be ready for the real world you need a combination of doing well in academics (developing a work ethic/learning knowledge necessary for work) and socializing (learning how to interact with others in various situations and how to relate to others). There are very few fields out there where you can get away with being socially incompetent.
This often includes academics. Studying as a group can be more efficient to studying by yourself (especially in groupwork) and increase the enjoyability reducing the risk of burnout.
Just a guess, but I think running student clubs and societies probably provide superior training in the "real world" to some combination of studying and socialising. [Damn my brain, it's trying to characterise this as a system of equations.]
|
I think people are putting to much emphasis on being social. You learn the majority of that on the way from just talking with others, you don't need a less strict environment to do this. People will always find a way to come together, its part of our nature. A few years of not gossiping and not drinking heavily will not turn you into an autist or an introvert. In fact I'd be he first to say those defending the idea there needs to be less curriculum and more social atmosphere are the ones without much if any of the "real world experience". You can do both even in a top tier college; you're on a forum dedicated to a game that requires an insane amount of multitasking, so put some of that multitasking to work!
|
i'm asian, and i don't consider us to be more intelligent than whites.
they after all, built american society from the ground up, and we're here to enjoy the benefits.
but i do think we work harder, because a lot of us here appreciate education more, due to constant conditioning from our parents.
i don't see this as a bad thing;the world is becoming extremely competitive now, and you really need to be skilled at a trade if you want to survive. this isn't like the 1950's where lots of people can afford homes, this is a brutal new age and a lot of slackers are gonna have a very rude awakening in the future.
|
On May 04 2011 07:30 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 07:24 hmmm... wrote:
There's not too much Asians can do with regards to the discriminatory admissions policies of Ivy League and other private schools (incl. publics too but anyways). No amount of bs-ing and raising awareness will change that.
I think the key is to understand that although in Asia, social upclassing through merit is possible, that is not always the case here.
In some American sectors, it's an all-out White male's club; if you don't fit into their WASP culture, they just won't hire you. In other American sectors, they look for teamwork and they will likely pick Whites who are more culturally identifiable; Asians are not incapable of working as a team. But the widespread stereotypes will inevitably influence the perceptions of recruiters. And obviously, there's going to be racism at all levels; some hospitals won't hire nurses with bad english accents, law firms will hire asian associates and burn them out, but not make them partner, etc.
It's not really surprising that White Americans are racist against Asians. Throughout history, there's always been this sense of cultural inferiority; if it was more pronounced in the past, today it still exists but only behind the mask of political-correctness. Asians have to battle against their increasing odds and although unfair, you live with whatever you've been given. It's better to win against the odds and increase Asian's cultural capital now, so that in future generations, discrimination in the US can be diminished. Do you have any sources for that whatsoever?
Why is this warned? Anyone who has been in a Social Problems course knows that he's talking about white privilege.
Here's a source among many that may satisfy you that I found thanks to Duke University.
http://econ.duke.edu/~hf14/teaching/povertydisc/readings/bertrand-mullainathan2004.pdf
Just google it, it's everywhere.. Oh wait, white privilege is also the privilege to care if you are white*.
*No idea if you're white (although I'm fairly certain by your quick reaction to warn hmmm...)
EDIT: I sometimes believe that people forget that colleges have reputations that they want to maintain. If we purely focus on the consequences on students that lack social orientation due to rigorous academics, then we lose sight of what college really is about.
And yes, Asians are severely overrepresented at top universities, although it's a bit hard to gripe about it if they have strong standing credentials on paper.
|
On May 04 2011 11:06 -_-Quails wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 10:49 Stratos_speAr wrote:On May 04 2011 10:25 mell0w wrote:
Universities are for higher education learning. If you want to spend ten grand a year on the potential desire to take acyclovir and drink some watered down bud light might I suggest a community college; it will save you in the long run. After you're done acting like a child and with all that extra money saved the possibility of attending a bigboy school is still financially affordable. This is one of the reasons I suggest most people do two years of community and two in a uni for their BA then go to graduate school if thats what they so desire. Kids are still kids right out of high school, they need a few more years of world experience before all that "youthfulness" is less predominant and their decisions less poor. Many students come out of college without event the faintest clue about what the real world is like, and this isn't just because they are partying all the time. Many kids focus entirely too much on academics. Just working too hard on academics the entire time in college doesn't teach you what the real world is like. It doesn't prepare you for it any more than being a drunk slob all through college does. To actually be ready for the real world you need a combination of doing well in academics (developing a work ethic/learning knowledge necessary for work) and socializing (learning how to interact with others in various situations and how to relate to others). There are very few fields out there where you can get away with being socially incompetent. This often includes academics. Studying as a group can be more efficient to studying by yourself (especially in groupwork) and increase the enjoyability reducing the risk of burnout. Just a guess, but I think running student clubs and societies probably provide superior training in the "real world" to some combination of studying and socialising. [Damn my brain, it's trying to characterise this as a system of equations.]
And I'd go out on a limb and say your guess is dead wrong. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to say that working hard in college for academics and student orgs and studying and whatnot is a bad thing. At the same time, those people that say that college is purely for academics and that's all you should be doing are incredibly naive. You need social skills, and you don't learn those through just studying, doing academic work, and being involved in organizations. You learn that from actually socializing. If you aren't at least moderately sociable, you won't come across well in interviews, you won't be able to get along well with co-workers, and you will be overall less desirable in the vast majority of job situations.
Oh, and not to mention that constantly working/studying is incredibly bad for mental health. It's a very common problem in Asian countries, and its even become a big problem in America.
|
In most colleges (expecially large ones) you can find whatever suits your tastes. There are plenty of academic and serious groups and places in so called "party schools," and there are always a bunch of crazy shit and parties going down in the academically high achieving schools. Maybe this is different for small colleges but there should not be a problem with finding fun or study in any medium to large college.
So unless the colleges are tiny, I think the real problem is that some people stereotype Asians and aren't comfortable being a minority and being surrounded by people of a different race. I find it hard to believe that there is any trouble finding Asians who like to party and socialize. The problem is that these kids are intimidated by the unknown and are unwilling to immerse themselves with different people.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
