On November 12 2010 16:32 Klockan3 wrote: Academia isn't about working hard even though many seems to think so.
even though this is somewhat offtopic, i'm really troubled by this approach to academia. regardless of whether you're a genius or not, you'll always be more successful if you work hard.
i've noticed that some people find some sort of value in getting good grades without studying, as if achieving through less effort is somehow more admirable than achieving through a lot of effort. i have to say that in any sort of competitive environment most of those that think this way will be outdone.
On November 12 2010 16:32 Klockan3 wrote: Academia isn't about working hard even though many seems to think so.
even though this is somewhat offtopic, i'm really troubled by this approach to academia. regardless of whether you're a genius or not, you'll always be more successful if you work hard.
i've noticed that some people find some sort of value in getting good grades without studying, as if achieving through less effort is somehow more admirable than achieving through a lot of effort. i have to say that in any sort of competition most of those that think this way will be outdone.
It's not that it is more admirable one way or the other, it's a matter of efficiency.
If someone can do work that takes you 4 hours, but only takes them 30 minutes, there is something to be said for that.
It's not good to be intelligent with a terrible work ethic, but also you could have the best work ethic in the world but you are still limited by your mind/body.
You cannot deny the reputation of the university has a great impact in graduate school or job applications.
Sure I can. Looking at where someone did their undergrad when they have a PHD, law or medical degree is like asking a university grad where they went to high school. Nobody gives a f*ck.
School reputation can help you get into grad school, but honestly... If you're trying to get into grad school and you can't... you just haven't really been trying (some exceptions may exist here if you're competing for spots in ivy league schools, etc.).
You cannot deny the reputation of the university has a great impact in graduate school or job applications.
Sure I can. Looking at where someone did their undergrad when they have a PHD, law or medical degree is like asking a university grad where they went to high school. Nobody gives a f*ck.
School reputation can help you get into grad school, but honestly... If you're trying to get into grad school and you can't... you just haven't really been trying (some exceptions may exist here if you're competing for spots in ivy league schools, etc.).
This is true. From my personal experience, once you're in medical school, everything you did in the past is essentially erased. It starts all over and you have to build up your resume again for it to count. This ritualistic purging happens again once you get into a residency. No one cares where you went if you got the spot.
As the only Chinese in the whole high school in a city in Canada. I think differently then the others because of my culture and how my parents raise me so I behave different then the other's. Loneliness made me more "mature", so I hang out with my friend "a nerd" because I feel like nerd are "more mature" generally more then the others, because I hang out with "nerd" i try to work hard at school. When i was younger, I was in another city where there is a lot of Chinese, When I was going to my Chinese school to learn mandarin on Saturday. I was the worst student because the other Chinese student was recently immigrate or they parent didn't live in Canada for long. In conclusion it mean that their is different way an Asian can be a "nerd" or unsocial it could be direct or undirect from the parents.
Second thing I'm annoy by Chinese are good in math and they like math, because I am born to be good in Math and generally other Chinese just work hard, pressure by parent/future/money/career or just like math, stereotypically smart people think Chinese do a lot of math. I HATE MATH but I'm born to be good in Math, I do advance math then the other, people and Chinese think I like math.
On November 12 2010 16:32 Klockan3 wrote: Academia isn't about working hard even though many seems to think so.
even though this is somewhat offtopic, i'm really troubled by this approach to academia. regardless of whether you're a genius or not, you'll always be more successful if you work hard.
i've noticed that some people find some sort of value in getting good grades without studying, as if achieving through less effort is somehow more admirable than achieving through a lot of effort. i have to say that in any sort of competitive environment most of those that think this way will be outdone.
Working hard and spending time on something are two different things. Just because you don't spend time on something doesn't mean you don't put effort into it. I think you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who can ace a course by studying for a few hours that doesn't put a large amount of effort into those few hours--whereas if you compare the quality of his study time to the large majority of people who do the typical "study as long as possible in preparation" I think you'll find that the one who spends less time on it but still achieves the grade has typically gained more from his or her studying in a much shorter period of time.
Studying hard and being a "work drone" with "serious" hobbies does not make you more mature. Not in the least.
I have some friends with hobbies like: Skateboarding, BMX'ing, extrem Snowboarding, Motocross and they never studied hard, they know to and often do party hard, they have 08/15 Jobs.
Are they not mature because their hobbies and their live is more set around "having a good time/fun"?
If you think that, you probably are not that mature yourself. It's about living an enjoyable live on your own cash... Not about being "srs bznz!"
Some people here seem to think that you get to a certain age and suddenly become "grown up"... Doesn't happen, it just doesn't.
On November 12 2010 12:45 vOdToasT wrote: So asians are, on average, better students than the lazy ass white americans.
OH NO!!!!! FUCKING ASIANS, THEY TOOK 'R SPOTS!!!
If this isn't racism, I don't know what is.
Getting good grades comes at the cost of getting social skills. I know from personal experience that many Asians at the schools I've attended are shy, emotionally suppressive, and cocky when it comes to academic competitions.
People, you're going to be the best at whatever your time is invested in. If you spend all your time doing homework and studying, then that means you spent none of your time developing other skills.
There's a reason why America is one of the most powerful nations in the world, and why many desire to live here. You think whites are lazy? All of our founding fathers were white. Don't try and give me any shit about how America isn't "only white", and how it's success is because of its diverse racial mix...it isn't. According to Wiki's demographics for the US, white people make up 78.4% of the population. The rest of the percentages are split up between African American, Asian, Indian, and many others.
Consider this : Many countries have to build walls to keep people IN. The USA has to build walls to keep people OUT. You KNOW what I'm talking about. Illegal immigration is a huge issue over here as of right now.
Anyone hating on my country has no justifiable right to. Jealous bastards.
Because anyone that "hates" America is "jealous" of it. They hate us for our freedom! Why do you hate freedom?
In my experience the people who seem like they only study all the time don't I've the highest grades. They're usually just kids who struggle with school so they need to put in more time to not do horrible.
We are all hurt by the unfair expectations of others to some degree; regardless of whether they are positive or negative. do your best to ignore them and live your life the way you want.
As a general comment:
I think the one thing that is getting glossed over, and Im assuming this is because Canada has a smaller population of disadvantaged minorities, is that if you eliminate affirmative action you will probably have underrepresentation of those minorities.
I have heard some people say they hate affirmative action. Well I guess I can understand where that comes from; no one wants to lose their university spot to someone with worse marks, worse test scores and the like. But here in America, at least, the programs are extremely important because they are really the only chance ethnic minorities who arent physically gifted AND are poor AND went to a school where they never had the opportunities are going to get to go to the big public university.
And I can already here the criticism; "they should just work harder". I wonder though, those of you who would say that, have you been to a really poor school? One of the dangerous places in the inner city or maybe a poor rural school?
Because I have, and my judgment is that those environments are so bad that it seriously impedes the abilities of students to succeed. Giving the kids who do they best they can at those schools a chance, even at the expense of a student with better credentials from a much better school, is probably the only chance many of these kids have at social mobility.
Now, do I think Asian students should be denied entrance into a university because of their race? Obviously not, but that may very well be the consequence of a program that really is there for a good reason.
On November 11 2010 12:02 Chill wrote: Being from Ontario, this article is exactly the thought process I went through except it wasn't strictly "Asian". Waterloo and UofT have a fantastic academic reputation and a reputation of zero social life. McGill and Queens are slightly lower in academics but have a way better social reputation. I didn't even consider Waterloo or UofT (despite applying and not getting in!).
It's an important part of university, but I'm not sure what could be done to fix it.
Contrary to what the above posters think, I felt what I learned of importance at university was exactly 50% academic and 50% social. I've drawn on both skillsets equally in my career.
I can't agree with this more. Half my graduating class from highschool went to UT and they echo similar sentiments as this. Most of their friends are the ones they made in highschool already. Everyone at UT is so fiercely competitive. Undergrad programs in different universities don't differ that greatly from one another so there really isn't a point in going to a certain school for prestige or whatever. I'd rather go to a school with smaller class sizes so I can really pick my professors' brains apart and a school that encourages social interaction. The drunken orgies and binge drinking is a plus too. So... Western > UT for undergrad studies in medicine.
The article misses the very important point of the availability of exceelent chinese food in waterloo as a result of all the asian students. This vastly improves quality of life for white people too!
On November 12 2010 15:49 Plutonium wrote: I'm going to make a few postulations:
a) The main desire an institute of higher learning is not just to educate, but to have graduates who become extraordinary figures in society, so that the reputation of the university is improved by their association with these people.
The primary motivation of an admittance office is to identify the people who have the innate talent to become the movers and shakers of society.
b) Historically, the main method that has been used to identify those with the potential to become an extraordinary figure is through the traditional admittance process - standardized test scores, past academic performance, and analysis of "intangibles" that translate into displays of independent thought and leadership qualities.
c) Race, ethnicity, or gender do not equate with the innate potential to become an extraordinary figure. All people are equally likely to possess the potential to become an extraordinary figure.
d) This identification process has been so thoroughly mapped out that parents of children who desire to see them admitted into top-flight universities push their children into "emulating" this potential, whether or not the child may or may not possess the innate desire or abilities of an extraordinary individual.
e) Asian cultures traditionally hold certain values higher than Western Cultures, and Western Cultures traditionally hold certain values higher than Asian cultures.
f) The values of Asian cultures contribute to a systematic increase in "measured" potential among children raised with those values using traditional methods of identification - standardized tests, academic GPA, and "intangibles" which supposedly reflect independent thought and leadership.
g) This systematic increase in measured potential to become an extraordinary figure does not correlate with actual potential to become an extraordinary figure. (see postulate c)
f) Therefore, the measurement system is flawed.
h) A new system of measurement being yet unproven or unfeasible due to the scale of university education, admissions officers must attempt to "correct" for this error, or suffer reduced efficiency in identifying future extraordinary figures.
Entirely agree + could'nt have put it better, except the term 'extraordinary figure' somehow kinda kept reminding me of Civ V lol.
However you stopped right at the point where things actually starts to become ethically hairy, even if i could sense the justification of the 'quotas' policy in Universities inbetween the last lines (dnt blame you for that, i stand neutral on this personally).
However, if your reasonning was followed further, wouldnt that mean that for the white bright/smart kids that still manage to get into those prestigious universities, becoming such 'extraordinary figures' as you put it, would actually be made easier, since they would shine more among the crowd of their 'apparent', but 'artificially-bred' peers? In that case it would not harm the diversity of those figures in any way, if that diversity ever needed to be preserved.
(lot of irony in this post in case i get flamed later btw)
figured i might as well add some imput more on topic: i'm a business school graduate in France, and here as well we notice an influx of asian students, still not as many so that they still mingle well but i could see how the situation could become like the US.
It's especially noticeable at my school since it has a focus on financial economics & business.
But here in America, at least, the programs are extremely important because they are really the only chance ethnic minorities who arent physically gifted AND are poor AND went to a school where they never had the opportunities are going to get to go to the big public university.
Affirmative Action benefits middle-class Blacks and Latinos ("URM's") the most, and hurts poor Asians (and to a lesser extent poor Whites) the most. Moreover, it's pretty clear that no matter how rich or poor you are, or what high school you went to, your pre-college achievements correlate very strongly with your post-college achievements. In other words, admitting someone to Harvard with low scores is not going to magically make them competitive with those who came in with high scores (for example, Blacks tend to do the poorest in law school, where tests are graded blindly, and have the lowest bar passage rates). Employers know and understand this, and so there is a tendency to view URM's with more skepticism (URM's are disproportionately represented amongst lay-offs at law firms).
In other words, Affirmative Action does not really help URM's, and most certainly hurts poor, ethnic minorities. If you want to help the poor, then do affirmative action based on family income, not race. But elite institutions will never do this, because they fear a student body that is too Asian.
I'm a student at the University of Waterloo, and I can definitely say that the amount of asians here is prominent. I myself am brown, but all of my roommates are Chinese, the majority of my friends are Chinese or Korean. It's not even so much a matter of me just liking asians as it is the population of the school being incredibly disproportionately asian. I'm a CS student, and in the math and CS faculty buildings I am more used to hearing Chinese and Korean being spoken when I walk through the halls than English at this point. When I go back to my hometown and hear people speaking English all the time, it actually feels kind of strange.
You can tell that at times the school tries to do things to diversify. For example last year when I lived in student residence, the cafeteria would sometimes have certain days when it would be "Italian Day" or "Mexican Day" etc. They tried a lot of different types of foods, and almost all of them seemed to be complete failures with people either choosing to eat somewhere else, or completely wasting the food: the majority just didn't like it. But believe me, every time they had "Asian Day" or "Sushi Day", I shit you not, you would literally have to wait an HOUR to be served. People would come in from all across the school and the line would extend to outside of the cafeteria until it was completely full, seemingly the cafeteria couldn't even produce enough sushi to satisfy all the customers, who were of course for the most part Asian.
I myself was ostracized to some extent by a lot of the white, brown, and well, 'non-Asian' students because I tended to hang out with more Asians. A lot of this just came down to the fact that they shared more hobbies and interests I liked, anime, video games, card games, tabletop games and I actually owe it to my Asian friends for getting me into starcraft By other students living in the dorm, I was deemed something of a 'race traitor' because I just wasn't that into being drunk seemingly all the time, smoking pot, watching sports, joining football/hockey clubs and that kind of thing.
One thing I've learned from hanging out with a lot of Asian students though is that they're a very hardworking people. My roommates tend to attend all their classes, focus on studying to the exclusion of a lot of other activities, and you can tell this kind of lifestyle works out well for them, especially given how many asian students there are. A few of my white friends have complained that it's really hard to find a girlfriend in Waterloo, but in comparison you seem to see asians walking around lovey dovey speaking their own language to each other all the time
Overall I don't regret coming here, hanging out with them has made me realize how important academics are, and it's also given me a ton more friends to enjoy video games and starcraft and that kind of thing with. They've been a lot better friends to me than I had in high school and the like. I don't think that Canadian schools should try to take affirmative action to get more non-asians into universities, but at the same time I feel like this university is at risk of becoming almost entirely Chinese/Korean at times. I myself have faced discrimination from other students because they are somewhat afraid of talking to me because I'm not asian and don't speak the same language as them, but I've kind of accepted it as a fact of life being a brown waterloo student.
On May 04 2011 01:56 SilverWolfe wrote: I'm a student at the University of Waterloo, and I can definitely say that the amount of asians here is prominent. I myself am brown, but all of my roommates are Chinese, the majority of my friends are Chinese or Korean. It's not even so much a matter of me just liking asians as it is the population of the school being incredibly disproportionately asian. I'm a CS student, and in the math and CS faculty buildings I am more used to hearing Chinese and Korean being spoken when I walk through the halls than English at this point. When I go back to my hometown and hear people speaking English all the time, it actually feels kind of strange.
You can tell that at times the school tries to do things to diversify. For example last year when I lived in student residence, the cafeteria would sometimes have certain days when it would be "Italian Day" or "Mexican Day" etc. They tried a lot of different types of foods, and almost all of them seemed to be complete failures with people either choosing to eat somewhere else, or completely wasting the food: the majority just didn't like it. But believe me, every time they had "Asian Day" or "Sushi Day", I shit you not, you would literally have to wait an HOUR to be served. People would come in from all across the school and the line would extend to outside of the cafeteria until it was completely full, seemingly the cafeteria couldn't even produce enough sushi to satisfy all the customers, who were of course for the most part Asian.
I myself was ostracized to some extent by a lot of the white, brown, and well, 'non-Asian' students because I tended to hang out with more Asians. A lot of this just came down to the fact that they shared more hobbies and interests I liked, anime, video games, card games, tabletop games and I actually owe it to my Asian friends for getting me into starcraft By other students living in the dorm, I was deemed something of a 'race traitor' because I just wasn't that into being drunk seemingly all the time, smoking pot, watching sports, joining football/hockey clubs and that kind of thing.
One thing I've learned from hanging out with a lot of Asian students though is that they're a very hardworking people. My roommates tend to attend all their classes, focus on studying to the exclusion of a lot of other activities, and you can tell this kind of lifestyle works out well for them, especially given how many asian students there are. A few of my white friends have complained that it's really hard to find a girlfriend in Waterloo, but in comparison you seem to see asians walking around lovey dovey speaking their own language to each other all the time
Overall I don't regret coming here, hanging out with them has made me realize how important academics are, and it's also given me a ton more friends to enjoy video games and starcraft and that kind of thing with. They've been a lot better friends to me than I had in high school and the like. I don't think that Canadian schools should try to take affirmative action to get more non-asians into universities, but at the same time I feel like this university is at risk of becoming almost entirely Chinese/Korean at times. I myself have faced discrimination from other students because they are somewhat afraid of talking to me because I'm not asian and don't speak the same language as them, but I've kind of accepted it as a fact of life being a brown waterloo student.
Holy Maiden of Necrofantasia, That's an old post
On topic It's really awkward. I really believe in, giving the higher priority seating to those who deserve it, put in more work. Maybe I am just biased. I don't know but I will say that I feel more comfortable around other asians. It's just a personal preference hahaha,
Facts of life, I bet theres a bunch of white people working super hard to be just as good as the asians, and all these quotes do its make it looks like all whites are a bunch of bums incapable of working as hard as the asians, on avg is true! but damn what a lame story
This is only happening because so many asians go to canada and their universities dont have white mainly bs
EPT
By other students living in the dorm, I was deemed something of a 'race traitor' because I just wasn't that into being drunk seemingly all the time, smoking pot, watching sports, joining football/hockey clubs and that kind of thing. 
