|
On November 12 2010 15:03 BruceLee6783 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 14:58 EndlessRain wrote: Yeah and I think all the Arab countries are full of brainwashed people too. Then you're free to think whatever you want. Doesn't make it true. Show nested quote + How is it a moot point? I wasn't attacking you, I was attacking the people in your country. And fox news is the most watched news station by far in the united states. Because I LIVE in that country you're talking about. I'M ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.
Are you retarded? Do you think the fact that you don't watch fox news somehow disproves the fact that fox news is the most watched news station in the united states?
person A: Hey man, sc2 is the most played strategy game right now.
person B: well I play civ4 so your point is moot!! lolol
that's basically what you sound like right now.
Anyways, that's my last post on this subject, too much thread derail.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
On November 12 2010 14:59 BruceLee6783 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 14:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Where do you live? I'm from Hawaii and the majority of our population is asian (over 50%) and we have just as many well-adjusted and socially apt kids who get good grades as anywhere else. According to you, you're surrounded by mostly Asians. How are you going to know the difference? Show nested quote +Your generalization of a couple of asian introverts to the entire asian population is quite offensive to me as a completely normal (but still asian) person. Like there's never been a nerdy white kid in your life? Think about it in a bigger context please. I don't live in Hawaii, and I was speaking from personal experience (like I said in my post).
I've lived in many places over the US in my lifetime and in other countries like Japan. Currently I'm in Korea teaching English. I can clearly see the differences and similarities between school in Hawaii and school in, for example, Oregon. Regardless of the demographic, we have well-adjusted and socially inept kids and they're basically evenly spread through the population based on demographics. I've known a lot of nerdy white kids in my life but I don't think that all white kids are nerdy. I've known a lot of smart asians who study hard in my life but I don't automatically assume that all asians are incapable of socializing or spend all their time studying. What I have noticed is that the ones that get good marks and are successful are GENERALLY quite apt at socializing. Of course you have the one introverted dude who sits in the back and has no social skills but that has nothing to do with their race. It's sad that the asians in your... state? suck so much. Come to Hawaii, meet some cool asians, change your perspective.
|
how unsurprising that people are making angry posts in a thread about race
|
On November 12 2010 15:06 BruceLee6783 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 14:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also getting good grades absolutely does NOT cost anything. Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You actually believe yourself?
Are you effectively insinuating that because I spend all my time playing SC2, the good grade I get... doesn't exist?
Also, you seem to forget that some people are actually, you know, intelligent. An attribute you seem to be lacking, good sir.
|
Although this article is incredibly skewed it makes me a little bit sad.
Because it reminds me of my friend (and yes hes Asian) currently we are both in grade 12.
We have been good friends since grade 7 but as the school years progress we grew further and further apart not because of changing personalities but increasing importance of the school work. While I (and my parents) were satisfied with an 80 average, his were not. After grade 9 when his average was something like 86 he basically lost all of his social life because of pressure at home.
He was put on suicide watch nearing the end of the grade 11 school year. Right now he is averaging a 97%, but he can't come out to the LAN parties my other friends put together and can't go to FNM and has no time to build or play any magic. It is especially so now as this is grade 12 before he could come out to the odd few but now between him maintaining a 97+
average, his martial arts, his piano lessons, and his parents insisting he graduates with 150+ credits. He has not been able to hang out with us since summer, and the course load right now in classes is only moderate, I can only guess as to what will happen come this may when finals prep is crammed down our throats. It really makes me sad. There is also a lot of pressure coming from the teachers as well, each of them insisting each course should get it's own 90 minute study period a night plus homework.
There is only 24 hrs in a day; generally people need to sleep 6-8 of them. And to see some people max out in studying and forced extra curricular, leaving them no time to socialize, whether it be a LAN party, a kegger, or whatever your preferred method of socialization, is sad. For the most part people aren't machines and one is forced to be one it is sad.
Of course this is just one Asian child in the world of many, but I think the point of this article should be that kids should be taught balance.
EDIT: Societies, parents and children alike should be taught balance.
|
I mean my big thing is that assuming all asians are nerdy geniuses incapable of socializing because they spend all their time studying is pretty much the same thing as assuming all black men are violent crack-smoking felons or that all white people are rich prejudiced jackasses.
|
On November 12 2010 15:07 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 14:59 BruceLee6783 wrote:On November 12 2010 14:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Where do you live? I'm from Hawaii and the majority of our population is asian (over 50%) and we have just as many well-adjusted and socially apt kids who get good grades as anywhere else. According to you, you're surrounded by mostly Asians. How are you going to know the difference? Your generalization of a couple of asian introverts to the entire asian population is quite offensive to me as a completely normal (but still asian) person. Like there's never been a nerdy white kid in your life? Think about it in a bigger context please. I don't live in Hawaii, and I was speaking from personal experience (like I said in my post). I've lived in many places over the US in my lifetime and in other countries like Japan. Currently I'm in Korea teaching English. I can clearly see the differences and similarities between school in Hawaii and school in, for example, Oregon. Regardless of the demographic, we have well-adjusted and socially inept kids and they're basically evenly spread through the population based on demographics. I've known a lot of nerdy white kids in my life but I don't think that all white kids are nerdy. I've known a lot of smart asians who study hard in my life but I don't automatically assume that all asians are incapable of socializing or spend all their time studying. What I have noticed is that the ones that get good marks and are successful are GENERALLY quite apt at socializing. Of course you have the one introverted dude who sits in the back and has no social skills but that has nothing to do with their race. It's sad that the asians in your... state? suck so much. Come to Hawaii, meet some cool asians, change your perspective.
the asian community knit tightly. the less intelligent asians are usually more active, and will always aim to socialise with the more intelligent asians for learning advantages, and the more intelligent asians, who are usually more introvert, will accept these friendships.
most of the asians in my program mech eng is pretty introvert toward the white guys in our class; they are uncomfortable in approaching these guys but then again the white guys are also uncomfortable approaching the asians; its harder for asians to notice since *everything* revolves around the perspective on a white guy
|
On November 12 2010 15:07 EndlessRain wrote: Are you retarded? Do you think the fact that you don't watch fox news somehow disproves the fact that fox news is the most watched news station in the united states?
Does the fact that it's the most watched news station make it relevant to anything? People could be watching it for the sports and weather, for all you know. And even if IT DID influence people's ideas about their country, then it's not the stations fault, it's their own damn fault for choosing to believe anything the station might tell them.
|
On November 12 2010 15:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
I mean my big thing is that assuming all asians are nerdy geniuses incapable of socializing because they spend all their time studying is pretty much the same thing as assuming all black men are violent crack-smoking felons or that all white people are rich prejudiced jackasses.
So... stereotypes. The fact remains that there's truth in stereotypes, but of course they become an issue when people actually believe that stereotypes apply to all people.
|
On November 12 2010 15:10 tirentu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 15:06 BruceLee6783 wrote:On November 12 2010 14:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also getting good grades absolutely does NOT cost anything. Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You actually believe yourself? Are you effectively insinuating that because I spend all my time playing SC2, the good grade I get... doesn't exist? Also, you seem to forget that some people are actually, you know, intelligent. An attribute you seem to be lacking, good sir.
you korean? because koreans are effectively the only race of people that can play computer games all day and still get a gpa of 4.0
|
On November 12 2010 15:10 tirentu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 15:06 BruceLee6783 wrote:On November 12 2010 14:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also getting good grades absolutely does NOT cost anything. Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You actually believe yourself? Are you effectively insinuating that because I spend all my time playing SC2, the good grade I get... doesn't exist? Also, you seem to forget that some people are actually, you know, intelligent. An attribute you seem to be lacking, good sir.
PFFT It's true, the good grade you get.. wait..what good grade? 
Also, getting good grades does not cost your social life. Many people take courses they are interested and good at in university. This usually results in achieving well and taking less time to do so.
|
Cal Berkeley, one of the best schools in the US
undergrad 42% asian, 31% white
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/education/edlife/07asian.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
ACROSS the United States, at elite private and public universities, Asian enrollment is near an all-time high. Asian-Americans make up less than 5 percent of the population but typically make up 10 to 30 percent of students at the nation’s best colleges:in 2005, the last year with across-the-board numbers, Asians made up 24 percent of the undergraduate population at Carnegie Mellon and at Stanford, 27 percent at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 14 percent at Yale and 13 percent at Princeton.
And according to advocates of race-neutral admissions policies, those numbers should be even higher.
it's not just canada
http://www.newsweek.com/2000/09/17/berkeley-s-new-colors.html
And Asian-Americans are many times more likely than other groups to graduate at the top of their high-school classes. At Cal, many Asian-American students attribute their academic success to family pressure and, in some cases, an immigrant mind-set. "There's such a push to succeed," says Marian Liu, a fifth-year student at Cal whose father was a Chinese immigrant. Ward Connerly, a UC regent who is one of the most vocal opponents of affirmative action, says that before 209, Asian-American students were discriminated against. "There was this fear that without the use of race, the whole campus would become Asian," he says.
btw, I'm a first gen Asian American like so many of these students. I'm proud of us guys and gals. And I hate Cal I went to Stanford
|
This reminds me alot of my highschool.
I live in perth australia and attended a high ranking public school. It even won australian school of the year awhile back so it was a great school! But while attending this school i noticed a few things.
1. Because this school was a public school with a very promising standard lots of asian parents were sending their kids there. Because it was a good school.
2. Because all of the asian parents were buying into the area and sending their kids there this started a circle. the school itself was a shithole. There was nothing in the way of classrooms. Over half of them were "demountables" or portable classrooms that were meant for a use of 3years, 10years ago.
While all these asian kids were still pouring in, their parents forced them to study extremely hard. in order to get a good grade and do medicine at university. This pressure meant that we had alot of very high achieveing kids, which then meant that the school was known as a high achieveing school. Which leads to more people attending.
Another example of the "asian-white" demographic was evident at this school. There was no racism from the white people to the asians. But often there would be racism the other way, in the forms of calling us "ghosts" or swearing at us in chinese. I am a non-racist white person and if i come across as racist it is due to my poor writing skills.
Racism can go both ways and although i am a trusting nice person. It has become very hard for me to socialize with chinese born people because of those experiences.
|
On November 12 2010 15:13 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 15:10 tirentu wrote:On November 12 2010 15:06 BruceLee6783 wrote:On November 12 2010 14:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also getting good grades absolutely does NOT cost anything. Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You actually believe yourself? Are you effectively insinuating that because I spend all my time playing SC2, the good grade I get... doesn't exist? Also, you seem to forget that some people are actually, you know, intelligent. An attribute you seem to be lacking, good sir. you korean? because koreans are effectively the only race of people that can play computer games all day and still get a gpa of 4.0
Korean at heart.
On-topic: The article is very interesting. Yes, there are groups of antisocial asian students at most every good school. Is there a problem with that? No.
|
I'm going to make a few postulations:
a) The main desire an institute of higher learning is not just to educate, but to have graduates who become extraordinary figures in society, so that the reputation of the university is improved by their association with these people.
The primary motivation of an admittance office is to identify the people who have the innate talent to become the movers and shakers of society.
b) Historically, the main method that has been used to identify those with the potential to become an extraordinary figure is through the traditional admittance process - standardized test scores, past academic performance, and analysis of "intangibles" that translate into displays of independent thought and leadership qualities.
c) Race, ethnicity, or gender do not equate with the innate potential to become an extraordinary figure. All people are equally likely to possess the potential to become an extraordinary figure.
d) This identification process has been so thoroughly mapped out that parents of children who desire to see them admitted into top-flight universities push their children into "emulating" this potential, whether or not the child may or may not possess the innate desire or abilities of an extraordinary individual.
e) Asian cultures traditionally hold certain values higher than Western Cultures, and Western Cultures traditionally hold certain values higher than Asian cultures.
f) The values of Asian cultures contribute to a systematic increase in "measured" potential among children raised with those values using traditional methods of identification - standardized tests, academic GPA, and "intangibles" which supposedly reflect independent thought and leadership.
g) This systematic increase in measured potential to become an extraordinary figure does not correlate with actual potential to become an extraordinary figure. (see postulate c)
f) Therefore, the measurement system is flawed.
h) A new system of measurement being yet unproven or unfeasible due to the scale of university education, admissions officers must attempt to "correct" for this error, or suffer reduced efficiency in identifying future extraordinary figures.
|
Additionally, the UC system is moving away from the SAT, due to the "gaming" that goes on.
|
On November 12 2010 14:59 BruceLee6783 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 14:54 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Where do you live? I'm from Hawaii and the majority of our population is asian (over 50%) and we have just as many well-adjusted and socially apt kids who get good grades as anywhere else. According to you, you're surrounded by mostly Asians. How are you going to know the difference?
Pathetic. This means that you believe that different races innately have different levels of social intelligence. It doesnt matter if theyre White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, or whatever. If someone is shy, reclusive, and/or makes awkward comments whenever he or she speaks, THAT is what makes them socially inept. You dont have to be of a particular race to be able to see when someone is lackin in social skills. But for some reason, because ZERG_RUSSIAN lives in a community where Asians are the majority, that means their Asian social ineptitude is the norm for social interaction and that he can't tell the difference? Thats ridiculous.
On November 12 2010 15:06 BruceLee6783 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 14:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also getting good grades absolutely does NOT cost anything. Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You actually believe yourself? User was temp banned for this post.
I stated it before, Ill state it again. I currently have 3.7 in my graduate accounting degree. Its no 4.0 but I consider that pretty good. In my free time, i bboy with friends, lift weights on those off days. On weekends, I go out to bars or clubs with my friends, or house parties when theres somethin goin down. I have friends who, like me, are Asian who have comparable or better grades, are at least as athletic and at least as social. I know white people who have great grades and are very social people.
I think this "Asians only have good grades because they sacrifice social abilities" is a stupid rationalization by lazy/jealous people. I hate calling people jealous because usually its not true, but there is just so much evidence showing that Good Grades does not automatically lead to Bad Social Skills that it leads me to believe that people who continue to propagate this idea are those people who dont get good grades and want to feel better about themselves.
|
I'd say that the more you study the less chance is it that your grades reflects what you have understood/learned. According to that it would be good to discriminate against those who studies harder but gets the same grades, but since there is no way to check that they invented all the other checks. Also since Asians on average studies harder they also gets hit by this.
You want people who are creative and understands what they are doing. Academia isn't about working hard even though many seems to think so. The only reason grades are used is because there is no better metric even though it have quite bad correlation with qualities you want from students mainly because some commits way too much time for it.
On November 12 2010 16:08 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 15:06 BruceLee6783 wrote:On November 12 2010 14:57 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Also getting good grades absolutely does NOT cost anything. Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You actually believe yourself? User was temp banned for this post. I stated it before, Ill state it again. I currently have 3.7 in my graduate accounting degree. Its no 4.0 but I consider that pretty good. In my free time, i bboy with friends, lift weights on those off days. On weekends, I go out to bars or clubs with my friends, or house parties when theres somethin goin down. I have friends who, like me, are Asian who have comparable or better grades, are at least as athletic and at least as social. I know white people who have great grades and are very social people. I think this "Asians only have good grades because they sacrifice social abilities" is a stupid rationalization by lazy/jealous people. I hate calling people jealous because usually its not true, but there is just so much evidence showing that Good Grades does not automatically lead to Bad Social Skills that it leads me to believe that people who continue to propagate this idea are those people who dont get good grades and want to feel better about themselves.
Correct, but I think he meant out of the perspective of a single person. For a person to get higher grades he generally needs to spend more time with it and thus needs to do less other things. It isn't true when you compare two different persons but I don't think that it is what he was talking about.
|
It's all a matter of culture. In asia it's quite common for parents to pressure and force their kids to study extremely hard.
In america and I imagine similarly in canada there isn't as much pressure like that.
Obviously if one culture forces people to study more, those people will be more well-studied. And may do better in academics.
But studying hard and getting good grades is not a sign of intellect, so I hope this thread doesn't deteriorate into that.
The true genius is the one that studies minimally and still is able to understand and apply everything they learn. And it doesn't really matter what background you come from, you either got that or you don't.
|
On November 12 2010 12:35 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2010 11:58 evanthebouncy! wrote:
the problem is that grades are definitely NOT the best evaluation of the quality of the students. There are many other intangible qualities, but none of those can be measured in a fair/unbiased fashion. So as a result grade ends up being the predominant metric and it is so easy to get good grades if you have the slightest idea how to study. Asians have the grade thing figured out back to front. Dunno about other countries, China has it figured out.
Let me make an example:
I was sent back to China over one summer of 2006? To study for the SAT. Now why would I study SAT in China? Because there's this school in China, called "New Oriental" which destroys all U.S. college entrance tests. They have instructors who purposefully take the GRE multiple times, failing them, just to memorize the exam questions. There is an entire floor worth of library devoted to the standardized tests. The school hosts many cases, from TOFL to LSAT, with a very centralized goal of getting its students into the top U.S. schools.
So as a culture, we understands how the tests are being done, we know how to get good grades. That being said, Chinese are no better at theory nor practice nor anything, its just they get good grades.
This problem is worse in China, where all the Chinese top universities admission is taken up by people who only knew how to take tests, but does not know how to do anything else.
Sad, really. Very doubtful about this. We are not talking about China, and I do not know one Asian person who has spent a significant amount of time in the west who does this. Have you never considered that if this was true, they'd drop out of said universities very quickly? Even assuming it is true, it would be the fault of the universities. This is like having an unstoppable 6pool in SC2, and when all the Koreans start 6pooling saying that all Koreans know how to do is 6pool.
I am not saying the point he makes is correct or anything, but schools that train students to pass standardized tests are pretty common in both China and Vietnam. There are also schools that took gifted students and train them into what my dad likes to call "fighting peacocks" (basically specialist in the subjects that they're gifted at, usually just 1 or 2) to compete with other schools, and those kids basically have nothing else besides their specialties. Schools don't drop them because they're pretty much academic athletes.
And raw grades are pretty important over there btw, which may explain why no Asian parents (especially the 1st gen. or those who never go to college in the West) like to see anything below a 3.8 in their kids' transcripts. My mom was like that before she went nursing school, and now she wants me to have a social activity in school as well as a 3.8 - 4.0 GPA. FML.
I do agree with you in that i don't see any other Asians in the west doing this either (me included). Most I've seen are pretty well rounded and socialized.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
