EPTBureaucracy Mafia! - Page 83
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 19 2012 09:29 VisceraEyes wrote: Can't a guy compose a post in peace? Cheese and rice. Gimme a sec! ... | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On July 19 2012 12:41 Probulous wrote: Foolishness, do you think BM is an executive? Who cares? Any attempt to try to distinguish whether a suspect is an executive or not is retarded. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
From what I glean from his filter, he has been pretty straightforward. His cases seem heavily based on meta as do many of the vets' reads on each other, so I'm not able to follow that part, but the non-meta portions seem ok. It could be that I underestimate exactly what he should be capable of since I've never really played with him (barring Liar Game but I replaced into that and he died early), but his large BM case should give a clear indication of what he has been doing with his time. With WBG's role flip, I'm inclined to think that we do indeed have vigs or some sort of KP and that mafia have some sort of protection / extra life roles. Because the only time I can envision his pardon ability being used is when mafia hold a large portion or even the majority of votes, and enough communication has been run through so they can consolidate on a target. The lynch is traditionally town's primary weapon against scum. If they lose that and are in / approaching minority, this role can help prevent the lynch weapon going into scum hands, allowing a swing with the aid of blue KP. Apparently someone has stolen Meapak_Ziphh's vote this cycle, which makes little sense when it is clear that consensus is that we all lynch Kurumi as soon as possible. Meapak could you clarify if this was at day cycle or sometime during the day? Because Matt's was stolen halfway and a difference in steal time could indicate separate powers. I'm sure Matt's stealer is scum - it switched against the consolidation. Meapak's stealer could be town who thinks Meapak is scum. I still think it could be a ninja vote thing (ninja toy in Ace's death factory 2 is what is coming to mind) but I'll need to do more filtering. And of course, ##Vote: Kurumi | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
I'm sure Matt's stealer is scum - it switched against the consolidation slOosh, nice to see you around. Just a clarification, Matt's vote actually ended up on BH. It was switched back right before the deadline. | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6784 Posts
On July 19 2012 10:26 HiroPro wrote: Explain your rastaban case to me please. I did not find your inital thing very strong. Yeah I understand people haven't been thrilled with it yet so I'm going to formally write an analysis up later tonight. On July 19 2012 10:28 Kurumi wrote: When did you learn this? Mattchew told us about it during the day. looking at the time stamps it was about 45 minutes after the day post so I think it's likely this was a day action as well, I find it odd that it would be used so soon though. On July 19 2012 12:20 Katina wrote: It doesn't matter if your vote was stolen, just vote. No actually. If I do people will claim that I was faking the whole stealing thing in the first place. I'd rather see where whoever is controlling my vote (most likely scum) puts it. When I don't get modkilled for failure to vote people will have confirmation that this is a real role. This also clears mattchew to a certain extent because we know he wasn't faking his claim. He could of course still be scum but at least he's not lying just to muddy the waters. | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
On July 19 2012 13:27 Foolishness wrote: Who cares? Any attempt to try to distinguish whether a suspect is an executive or not is retarded. I kind of agree with this. Right now the only criteria that I really see people using seems to be the ability/experience levels of the people brought up as scum suspects... | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 19 2012 13:48 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: No actually. If I do people will claim that I was faking the whole stealing thing in the first place. I'd rather see where whoever is controlling my vote (most likely scum) puts it. When I don't get modkilled for failure to vote people will have confirmation that this is a real role. This also clears mattchew to a certain extent because we know he wasn't faking his claim. He could of course still be scum but at least he's not lying just to muddy the waters. Apparently onto Foolishness. I agree that it makes Mattchew's claim more believable. On July 19 2012 12:34 Protactinium wrote: Foolishness (1) Meapak_Ziphh | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Does no one have a nuke or shot to spare today on Kurumi? *sigh* ##Vote: Kurumi @Foolishness: Will you even respond to the cases against you? GGQ's filter is severly lacking, but I don't get the feeling he's scum from what he posted for now, albeit only slightly. About supersoft On July 18 2012 08:08 supersoft wrote: and I am also okay with MZ and BH. But it's too late for me to give you full reasoning for these guys lol sorry, need to sleep :D zzZzZZzzz What about this? Why are you okay with lynching MZ and BH? You never mentioned them again. On July 18 2012 04:28 supersoft wrote: we are not lynching veterans today. Wait at least for night 1 and see who's left by then. And what about this? Why were you defending Foolishness there? Did you think he might actually be town or something? I think supersoft is mafia. Here's his filter: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=64722 Most of his posts are him responding to people, and never following up what he posts. He asks BH some stuff, he asks HiroPro some stuff...but? I don't see him acting on that pressure, even when he's active, he just seems to appear he's pressuring by asking people questions. He wants to kill MZ and syllo and never really says why. He entertains the notion that the hosts made syllo CEO because he's a vet....but nothing else, I haven't seen a single reason why syllo is scum from him. On July 18 2012 08:08 supersoft wrote: okay time is ready for my interim findings: § 1 The good guys Sadly I have to tell you that I won't be around for the lynch, so i want to make sure, i do my best to prevent you from screwing up even if i am not around to babysit the lynchprocedure. :D This leads me to my first important point: I really hope WBG and Sandroba will be around when the lynch happens, it's like 6 hours earlier in their timezone, so it will be around midnight for them (correct me if i am wrong) when the lynch happens. I really think you guys should listen to them, reasoning: these guys know how to play this game and know how to reason their decisions well. They won't attempt to do crazy shit, because if something bad happens, we can actually blame them, unlike many others, who don't make any sense at all and their failure is neither a scum, nor a towntell. Moreover both of them have been really active and I agree with most of their opinions so far. § 2 The Lynchtarget and more about the good guys Now the more important part. I think austin is a solid lynch today. I. At first some thoughts and additions to a good post: The first thing is actually a thing that austin may not know. But it's simply true. Based on this knowledge the second point is extremely logic. if you start to wifoming around someone who claimed a role and catched scum, at some point he will look suspicious in the eyes of an unexperienced mafiaplayer. But if you look at the facts, sandroba is, if he catched scum with kurumi, town MVP right now. Noone else catched scum so far. he's not confirmed whatsoever and I already pointed out, that setupwise there is still a possibility that sandroba is scum. But this possibility is the only thing what stands between his status as townMVP and confirmedtown-townMVP. The assumption that the very existance of this possibility leads to the conclusion that sandroba is scum, is just bullshit. sum-up: attacking sandro rigt now is bad play. Experience shows us that bad players =/= scum. therefor some more evidence: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=119148 II. He starts of with a post discussing general stuff. Long post, no paragraphs, many ()()() this text is the exact kind of text i've seen often times from scumplayers. They feel good if they produce a big text at the start, because they feel that they need to do something. III. The screwup: What happened between this post and his meaningless policypost. Answer: he didn't follow the game in detail (scum is lazy but many townies get used to that bad habit, too) Now he felt like he needs to do something. But scumhunt as scum? Nooo: You really don't want your teammates to get lynched, so why not go for the guy who claimed and look like you're busy helping the town with this mean roleclaimer. That's actually funny: he says, he's curious about the power. I believe him. What I don't believe is, that he's also curious about the alignment. Woa, while I am writing this I can now see it much clearer what bothers me about his crusade against sandroba. He doesn't say that he thinks sandroba is scum, or maybe scum. He doesn't even bring up that sandroba may be bussing kurumi. As scum that's not interesting for him. All he knows is that roleclaiming is usually considered as scummy and he sees his chance here to appear like someone who is pressuring scummy people, but he really isn't. Hah! I am pretty confident now, that austin is scum :-P IV. With his following attemps (for example to accuse GGQ) to clear the blame fail in my eyes. Accusing GGQ is easy and the motiveless effort to try to justify the attack on sandroba with this dubious speculations about the immense power of sandrobas role doesn't turn me around. § 3 The alternatives lynch Hi risk. I already pointed out that post. For someone who just realized that scum had been busted, this post is not happy enough. I want to read outbursts of rampant excitement and not this: feels like... i expect this... k... lynch. and I am also okay with MZ and BH. But it's too late for me to give you full reasoning for these guys lol sorry, need to sleep :D zzZzZZzzz This is the only post with real "content" I could find, but it basically says things others said about austin. Also this paragraph: The first thing is actually a thing that austin may not know. But it's simply true. Based on this knowledge the second point is extremely logic. if you start to wifoming around someone who claimed a role and catched scum, at some point he will look suspicious in the eyes of an unexperienced mafiaplayer. But if you look at the facts, sandroba is, if he catched scum with kurumi, town MVP right now. Noone else catched scum so far. he's not confirmed whatsoever and I already pointed out, that setupwise there is still a possibility that sandroba is scum. But this possibility is the only thing what stands between his status as townMVP and confirmedtown-townMVP. The assumption that the very existance of this possibility leads to the conclusion that sandroba is scum, is just bullshit. sum-up: attacking sandro rigt now is bad play. Seems like total fluff that can just be reduced to "sandro could be scum, but that doesn't make him scum", which again is not rocket science either and seems like pointless filler to me. I remember him "trolling" in Bang Bang, and I know he posts one-liners and the like. However, in Bang Bang he was intent on killing and catching scum since the beginning, and if he thought someone was scum he pushed them until they died. I know since he did that to me, and later with talismania and other. Here he doesn't have that same attitude at all, he just seems intent in asking questions to some people, subtly accusing MZ/syllo/etc and just saying he wants to kill them, but never pushing them. If he actually thought MZ was scum he would have pushed for his lynch D1, not just say "kill MZ" in between joking with Kurumi and Palmar or whatever. The only time he seemed to genuinely try to catch scum was 1 post about austin and that's it. Even then, after he came back.....he never mentions austin again. That's not like his Bang Bang play at all, if he thought austing was scum he wouldn't have just "forgotten" about him after the NL. Foolishness hasn't done anything to convince me he's town. He hasn't even tried to respond to the cases made against him. Even that case on BM seems pretty bad, it mostly boiled down to "BM posts a lot when town, posts less when scum. Here he's posting less, therefore he's scum". Again he's trying to use those same shitty heuristics he used to deduce Palmar was town to catch scum yet ignores other more important aspects, like motivation, behaviour, etc. Speaking of which, I don't actually have a read on BM, although by memory he doesn't seem as scummy or inactive as in LIII | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On July 19 2012 13:45 Probulous wrote: slOosh, nice to see you around. Just a clarification, Matt's vote actually ended up on BH. It was switched back right before the deadline. Ah - upon review it seems like it switched to Blazinghand when we were consolidating and for some reason switched back to gonzaw at the end of the day, which was why it confused me. I retract my scum stealer thought - it could very well be town stealer stealing from someone who they think is scum / anyone to secure lynch. Putting it back makes no sense though, but we now know it can be switched around multiple times within the cycle. Foolishness' case on Bill Murray is once again meta heavy (just a personal aversion to it, not an accusation / whatever). If indeed it is valid (I can only see the quotes he put up, I don't have time to go through all of BM's games) then it's looking pretty solid in the sense that I do see a different style of posting more akin to mafia style (short burst) rather than town style (long drawn out). I've played 1 or 2 games with BM and all I remember is that I started ignoring him like 2 posts in (he ended up mafia), and I've done the same this game too. Yet it boils down to a case on BM - I was hoping for something on ... a player of different stature than BM. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
Yet it boils down to a case on BM - I was hoping for something on ... a player of different stature than BM. That is my feeling too, hence why I asked my question regarding the executive. I honestly think we need to focus on the information structure of the mafia. Now could BM be an executive? Maybe, if the roles were randomed then it is certainly a possibility but given the hosts never answered my question regarding role randoming I am happy to assume that not all roles are randomed. Given the calibre of this player list I think that is a reasonable assumption. So thisWho cares? Any attempt to try to distinguish whether a suspect is an executive or not is retarded. Is not a helpful response at all. I just asked for an opinion. He seems to disagree with Syllo and Sandroba that targeting the executive is a good idea. Why? I don't know. I for one do care if BM is an executive because that is who we need to kill. Yes finding scum is our ultimate goal, but there are currently 9 scum running around. Three of which are in executive roles. Given we are killing a minion (Kurumi had a role) I think it prudent to try and ascertain the leadership but apparently that is "retarded". | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 19 2012 14:25 Probulous wrote: Yes finding scum is our ultimate goal, but there are currently 9 scum running around. Three of which are in executive roles. Given we are killing a minion (Kurumi had a role) I think it prudent to try and ascertain the leadership but apparently that is "retarded". The problem is that trying to ascertain leadership is like there's a police shootout with some criminals and the Probulous is there and he's like "oh hey I wonder, are those bullets 7.62x39mm or 5.66x45mm?" and everyone else is like "SHUT UP JUST SHOOT" and he's like "why are you calling me retarded? I think it prudent to try and ascertain the caliber of these bullets " and is totally unaware that it's not possible to find out and not nearly as important as the objective at hand | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On July 19 2012 14:31 Blazinghand wrote: The problem is that trying to ascertain leadership is like there's a police shootout with some criminals and the Probulous is there and he's like "oh hey I wonder, are those bullets 7.62x39mm or 5.66x45mm?" and everyone else is like "SHUT UP JUST SHOOT" and he's like "why are you calling me retarded? I think it prudent to try and ascertain the caliber of these bullets " and is totally unaware that it's not possible to find out and not nearly as important as the objective at hand Urgh. Whatever man. I would love to be able to just shutup and shoot but we can't. We can only kill one person per day. If I had my way, it would be the senior management, so I am focusing my scumhunting on senior players because I believe the hosts would not have put someone like Zealos (for example) as the CEO. Now is BM a senior player? I don't know, hence my question. To use your example, I am trying to take out the guy organising the killing, rather than the one reloading the guns. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 19 2012 14:36 Probulous wrote: Urgh. Whatever man. I would love to be able to just shutup and shoot but we can't. We can only kill one person per day. If I had my way, it would be the senior management, so I am focusing my scumhunting on senior players because I believe the hosts would not have put someone like Zealos (for example) as the CEO. Now is BM a senior player? I don't know, hence my question. To use your example, I am trying to take out the guy organising the killing, rather than the one reloading the guns. In my experience trying to base guesses on the metahost turns out poorly. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On July 19 2012 12:20 Katina wrote: It doesn't matter if your vote was stolen, just vote. Why would we give up an easy kill? It will narrow down the scum count, that's what we need to win as town. If Kurumi doesn't die people are just going to derp around and be unfocused because he IS still alive. With him dead that's one less distraction and we can focus on the other scum such as: Mattchew Foolishness Palmar Blazinghand Syllogism Bill Murrary Hi katina, does this mean you have gone from 85% to 100% on Foolishness?! Can we expect a detailed case soon? I do agree of course, I would even lynch him over Kurumi today, but that's not happening. Further, it seems weird for you to include me on your mafia list, considering you said On July 19 2012 02:13 Katina wrote: A no lynch huh? That's really pathetic town. Syllogism don't you think to go after me and say I don't care because I wasn't around at lynch time. That says absolutely nothing about my alignment. You have done nothing but gone after people who think you are Mafia. | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6784 Posts
On July 16 2012 23:32 rastaban wrote: Caught up now, thoughts so far: First off the random vote is a bad idea, normally the reason it is used is to eliminate mafia influence, but guess what the mafia don't know who each other are so this lynch will be without their influence anyway. We have a golden opportunity to have a lynch today with mafia having to base their judgments on reads, and make hard choices while not able to communicate. Fellow employees do not squander this opportunity! This leads to my second point, Lynching scum doesn't put someone in the clear, especially this early in the game. They don't know who each other is so they can lynch themselves, so look for sound reasoning not just who they voted for. @ HiroPro Third yes mafia only has 1 KP see: Fourth, While I think a Policy lynch on claiming blues is bad, I do think you bring up a very valid point. As you mention 1 for 1 may not be a bad trade for them so I think we should certainly be extra wary of any claimants and possibly lynch the claimant if it seems fishy, but I think a Policy is going a bit too far. OK so thats my setup review / plans post, I am now working on locating scum so I will follow up in a bit with my thoughts on who to lynch. This post is a whole lot of fluff. The game has been going on for a while when he makes this and there’s plenty to discuss however rastaban is more comfortable discussing the setup. This is a red flag, this type of post is something you make right after the game starts, not when the game has been going on and there are actual issues that can be addressed. To continue with this theme we have posts like this: On July 17 2012 00:19 rastaban wrote: Wait I just realized it said "one" of them in those posts. I had thought they sent out a message to all their followers at once, but it means instead of the above example, at most the high up, could tell one other person to try and save him. That means only 2 scum detractors at most from any lynch today Again, it’s just talking about the setup instead of actually scumhunting. Let’s look at the next two posts together: On July 17 2012 01:37 rastaban wrote: @BH What is this??? the only way someone could vote you is if they are scum, do you really believe you are that town? Your latest post is so crazy I almost think it is a joke. On July 17 2012 03:54 rastaban wrote: VE both games I have played with you you pushed someone incredibly hard day 1, why do you want to do a random lynch, cant you find any scum this time? Both these posts serve no purpose. Does rastaban think either of these two are scummy? Who knows. He says that BH is so crazy he almost thinks it’s a joke but gives us no read. Similarly with VE, he mentions how VE’s behavior is different than what he’s observed but gives no read. After a nice little wagon has built up on BH, rastaban finally feels confident calling for someone’s death: On July 17 2012 05:18 rastaban wrote: I like the case on BH better than the on Mz right. I feel GGQ is right in his assessment that mafia will use the lack of ties to make them more bold in their case rather than second guessing. Look at my play as Serial Killer, I decided to try and play as pro town as possible, I ended up going overboard and tunneling risk.nuke in my effort. I feel like MZ's caution is the sign of town who wants to get things right rather than scum who wants to get the day over with. Think about it we still have more than 24 hours of discussion to go. As others have also pointed out, he is also trying too hard to find reasons for his votes, it makes them seem fake. ##vote blazinghand He like the case on BH better than the one on me but spends most of the post talking about something other than his reasons for voting BH. Ultimately, rastaban’s vote seems like it is available to whichever candidate is currently the flavor of the hour: On July 17 2012 13:29 rastaban wrote: Sylo also looks like a good target, and while his actions are Scummy I recommend the Ace method, when two people both look like scum start by lynching the player you have more content on. We can give Sylo till tomorrow to improve if need be, and lynch this scum BH he has so much content and it all points one way On July 18 2012 11:33 rastaban wrote: I like the BH LYnch better but I could go for lymching Austin as well mainly because the only defense for him is it's so scummy scum wouldn't do it. I have mis-lynched gonzaw before and this case on him doesn't seem that strong. That said his reaction is quite different than in bang bang so I would take over a nolynch if we can't get BH or Austin stung up. On July 18 2012 12:32 rastaban wrote: I see u are on MZ. Gonzaw and mh are our leading candidates and it looks like I agree to give gonzaw a bit more time. Will u switch to MH? On July 18 2012 12:57 rastaban wrote: Sorry guys but I have to head to bed. I think the momentum is swinging back to BH so I will leave my vote where it is. The last post really betrays rastaban’s strategy. He “agrees” with the every case that was brought up d1 however he sticks with BH because that’s where the momentum is. This just screams scum trying to fit in. He’s not going to argue hard for the BH lynch, he won’t stick his neck out by switching to another candidate but he’ll agree with the argument against that person just to be in agreement. Finally, he chooses to go with BH because it’s the one that seems the least controversial. This may not be a very elegant post but it should get the point across and I need sleep. I’ll be happy to answer any questions when I wake up. tl;dr rastaban needs to die at some point. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
Furthermore, I can indicate the reason for my lack of activity I have just recently gotten into a new relationship, as can be seen on my Facebook. Thanks.  | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On July 19 2012 14:36 Probulous wrote: Urgh. Whatever man. I would love to be able to just shutup and shoot but we can't. We can only kill one person per day. If I had my way, it would be the senior management, so I am focusing my scumhunting on senior players because I believe the hosts would not have put someone like Zealos (for example) as the CEO. Now is BM a senior player? I don't know, hence my question. To use your example, I am trying to take out the guy organising the killing, rather than the one reloading the guns. Bill Murray is considered a vet. Is he considered a mastermind of planning and evil? Not sure, wouldn't bet on it. I think that "newbie" could be a CEO. He is less important in the grand scheme of things. At the start Mafia is basically in two families: one led by Chairman of the Board and second by the President of Marketing, totaling 4 members. Their jobs is to make sure all three minions are coordinated enough so they can work together. CEO's job on the other hand is to make sure two families know each-others plans. He might be the guy behind everything, but it'd take a cycle to make sure both sides know what to do, while the other High Rank scum has no info and would need to do something himself anyway. The most important guys are the High Ranks. Without them, CEO and the minions are left alone. One can't communicate at all and others can't get orders. High Ranks are likely to be veteran players or players with good history. Veterans: RebirthOfLegend (dead, town) Foolishness GGQ Bill Murray Meapak_Ziphh Chezinu (eeeeee I am going to say town on this one) Good players: sandroba (alive but all looks like he is town) Palmar wherebugsgo (dead, town) syllogism probably VisceraEyes, not sure though. GGQ and Bill Murray are pretty much lurking to the max. Have you seen them post? Me neither. Foolishness is semi-active, but has free-time to spare. Meapak is active. Chezinu is active and "trolling". Palmar is semi-active soon to be lurkish. Syllogism is active. VisceraEyes is semi-active. Remember that two people claimed power to block nukes: VisceraEyes and Blazinghand. Blazinghand wanted to save me for some reason. I think that would be foolish, given that my situation was terrible. VisceraEyes action of defending Blazinghand from HiroPro's "nuke" is suspicious in my opinion. Why would he do that? He never voted BH, so that part of the story holds. Besides that, Bill Murray has voted and then unvoted me in the voting thread. I have no idea why, but I guess thanks. While I dislike Foolishness' case because it is centered on "BM is not all over the place, therefore scum" instead of things he dug up. This should be the most important: + Show Spoiler + On July 19 2012 12:31 Foolishness wrote: Bill Murray! But his best post this game is probably the one he made against me: The issue here isn't about what's being said but about when it was said. He is essentially just restating arguments that were already laid out in full by wherebugsgo, syllogism, and sandroba. Bill Murray came late to the game. Has he provided something to the town that's genuine and fresh? No. He waits to see what the town thinks before trying to weigh in a contribution. But that aside what other posts has Bill Murray made that are of interest this game? One of my favorites is: We all know apathy is a trait many mafia possess. Outside of that, it was interesting to watch him go from wanting to kill Chezinu without a second thought: To thinking he is town the next day: I think that Foolishness' case put too much emphasis on meta (which is always handy to have, so linking to filters of games where somebody played X is good) and not on the in-game behaviour itself. Now onto gonzaw's case on supersoft. When I was reading supersoft during this game, something wasn't okay... His style seemed different from what I've remembered. A lot of short posts, no value, "just dicking around" attitude. This set off red flags in my head but I never bothered to check that out. supersoft's filter from Bang Bang 2( (Vanilla Townie) supersoft's filter from LV (Jailer) First game isn't what I've been searching for. Well, Bang Bang 2 is an.. interesting setup. But look at the second filter: He is a blue and is not afraid to push his cases or make them. Overall active and helpful. This game, his posts rather lackluster. There is a lot more of one-liners, less of those medium-ones and there's only one big one. He also defends a lot of people this game.. + Show Spoiler + On July 18 2012 04:28 supersoft wrote: we are not lynching veterans today. Wait at least for night 1 and see who's left by then. On July 17 2012 02:43 supersoft wrote: ah I corrected that list for you ;-) *stop going for palmar. All of you. That guy works best if you let him do his job. judge him based on his results not based on his playstyle. + this makes him the most hillarious player so far. We can't afford to lose him. On July 18 2012 08:08 supersoft wrote: okay time is ready for my interim findings: IV. With his following attemps (for example to accuse GGQ) to clear the blame fail in my eyes. Accusing GGQ is easy and the motiveless effort to try to justify the attack on sandroba with this dubious speculations about the immense power of sandrobas role doesn't turn me around. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On July 19 2012 12:29 GGQ wrote: ##vote Kurumi Baby, what the fuck can you post in this thread too? Like, play? | ||
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