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Worked great in SCBW, because Observers come out slow, forcing someone to make Cannons
I don't see what you're saying. In BW, Observers came out JUST in time if your opponent went for fastest DTs possible. They bought the person who made DTs time to set up an expansion/cannons time to tech to Storm and get some units.
This isn't possible in SC2 because after you get DTs, you still have to spend 200 more gas to get the building to continue with Templar tech, or invest 200 gas to get a Robotics, or 150 for a Stargate. So now you have building time + building unit time, and in the case of Templar Archives research time before that unit is even really usable.
The biggest issue, if people are feeling the same way I am about it, is that opening with DTs has no flair. It's a dead-end path, and past surprising your opponent with cloaked ninjas, DTs don't have a very defined roll.
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United States10774 Posts
And an upgrade to allow a unit isn't really a Protoss construction mechanic. The Spire->Greater Spire upgrade is more of a Zerg thing. It would be just as good to make the Dark Shrine require the Templar Archives to be built and just build faster as a result (50, instead of 100), but that's neither here nor there. Just a way to slow things down, although admittedly, I'd prefer either of those over the current system.
Actually, this is a viable idea. Just borrow a Zerg building system and make the Dark Shrine an upgrade from Templar Archives. (Similar to Gateway -> Warp Gate)
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Proposition: DTs should not be required to an all-in. (In SC1 you could proxy them, or god forbid proxy drop them, but used straight-up they were not an all-in.)
Problem: Early DTs are a straight-up all-in. Late DTs are glorified, overpriced zealots.
Proposed solution: <purpose of this thread>
It's not game-ruining or anything; SC1 has mass gates, robo, and templar openings (stargate is trash); SC2 has mass gates, robo, and stargate openings (templar is trash); many people just think that DTs should not be scout-type trash units.
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On June 15 2010 06:42 yarkO wrote:Show nested quote +Worked great in SCBW, because Observers come out slow, forcing someone to make Cannons I don't see what you're saying. In BW, Observers came out JUST in time if your opponent went for fastest DTs possible. They bought the person who made DTs time to set up an expansion/cannons time to tech to Storm and get some units. This isn't possible in SC2 because after you get DTs, you still have to spend 200 more gas to get the building to continue with Templar tech, or invest 200 gas to get a Robotics, or 150 for a Stargate. So now you have building time + building unit time, and in the case of Templar Archives research time before that unit is even really usable. The biggest issue, if people are feeling the same way I am about it, is that opening with DTs has no flair. It's a dead-end path, and past surprising your opponent with cloaked ninjas, DTs don't have a very defined roll.
this is what the OP is saying in the first place. I also do agree more with it along this thread.
but I doubt that blizzard splitted the templar tech for no reason. this is why I rather suggest an upgrade for the shrine than just merging it. either way: players from all kinds of backround have been discussing this matter for a long time and find it to be a problem. I wonder what different kind of solutions people come up with.
edit: I also think that the DT tech lacks in the other matchups. so a change would not break other matchups balance if its well adjusted IMO. in pvt you will face either ghosts or raves which both counter DTs and in pvz you face fastbuilt overseers.
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I think they made the DT's too expensive. If you are going for the DT tech and it gets countered by a robo bay, you cannot really commit to anything else with gas. Zealots are great when they can actually charge (Speed from BW, but it also costs a lot of gas). Robo bay units will eat any units you have since you commited to much to the DT's in the first place. It is hard to figure out how to commit to them, while having enough to stay alive with if they do not get you the correct results to make up for your lost macro.
There is no solution for this yet, they are too expensive and are meant for the mid game when you are running 4-6 gas sadly.
Who knows what will change from now until release(They do a few changes just before release internally testing them).
Edit: Deleted idea because others already said it and I must have saw it and didn't register it. 
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On June 15 2010 06:42 yarkO wrote:Show nested quote +Worked great in SCBW, because Observers come out slow, forcing someone to make Cannons I don't see what you're saying. In BW, Observers came out JUST in time if your opponent went for fastest DTs possible. They bought the person who made DTs time to set up an expansion/cannons time to tech to Storm and get some units. This isn't possible in SC2 because after you get DTs, you still have to spend 200 more gas to get the building to continue with Templar tech, or invest 200 gas to get a Robotics, or 150 for a Stargate. So now you have building time + building unit time, and in the case of Templar Archives research time before that unit is even really usable. The biggest issue, if people are feeling the same way I am about it, is that opening with DTs has no flair. It's a dead-end path, and past surprising your opponent with cloaked ninjas, DTs don't have a very defined roll.
I meant if it becomes so popular and strong that it becomes the only viable opener. If you're going DTs yourself, what are you gonna do? You need a cannon yourself! So, then everyone opens every match with DTs and a Cannon with a FE. That'd get kinda boring.
Heck, you wouldn't even want storm in SC2's PvP. Its awful. Any option under the sun is better than getting HTs in PvP. Is the secret to 'fixing' this just making Storm better against Protoss? I dunno. The 200 gas for the TA isn't that big of a deal if you FE'd and your opponent couldn't.
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On June 15 2010 06:43 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +And an upgrade to allow a unit isn't really a Protoss construction mechanic. The Spire->Greater Spire upgrade is more of a Zerg thing. It would be just as good to make the Dark Shrine require the Templar Archives to be built and just build faster as a result (50, instead of 100), but that's neither here nor there. Just a way to slow things down, although admittedly, I'd prefer either of those over the current system. Actually, this is a viable idea. Just borrow a Zerg building system and make the Dark Shrine an upgrade from Templar Archives. (Similar to Gateway -> Warp Gate)
yea well thats basically what tester said in his interview with artosis, you would need to have the templar archive upgrade on the dark shrine(but the upgrade has to be short and cheap) so youd have enought time to set ur exp up
but who knows if even an increase in HT tech speed would make the b.o work(its obviously just a theory for now), there are still sooo many variables that nobody has tested out yet
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On June 15 2010 06:51 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 06:42 yarkO wrote:Worked great in SCBW, because Observers come out slow, forcing someone to make Cannons I don't see what you're saying. In BW, Observers came out JUST in time if your opponent went for fastest DTs possible. They bought the person who made DTs time to set up an expansion/cannons time to tech to Storm and get some units. This isn't possible in SC2 because after you get DTs, you still have to spend 200 more gas to get the building to continue with Templar tech, or invest 200 gas to get a Robotics, or 150 for a Stargate. So now you have building time + building unit time, and in the case of Templar Archives research time before that unit is even really usable. The biggest issue, if people are feeling the same way I am about it, is that opening with DTs has no flair. It's a dead-end path, and past surprising your opponent with cloaked ninjas, DTs don't have a very defined roll. I meant if it becomes so popular and strong that it becomes the only viable opener. If you're going DTs yourself, what are you gonna do? You need a cannon yourself! So, then everyone opens every match with DTs and a Cannon with a FE. That'd get kinda boring.
I'd imagine you would see a lot of PvP like you did in BW, where sometimes a player will open with Robo and go Obs/Reaver expand while others would go DT/Cannons (in case other player went DTs) and expand. Other all-in variants exist (3/4 gate Goon builds that don't expand) but as general standard openings go... Well those were it.
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On June 15 2010 06:19 iamtt1 wrote:
uhhh you still have no idea what my argument is, the dt itself is irrelevant to this discussion, you have no knowledge of the subject so when you see the word DT in a sentence you immediately just make bullshit assumptions.. even after 7 pages your still clueless and this is why the poll was made the way it was
also the poll was not made to justify if im right or wrong, i know im right because i play the game and i know what im talking about.. u still dont even understand what the topic is, the poll is asking gamers if they would be for or against this type of a b.o in sc2 PvP because as it is this style of PvP DOES NOT EXIST IN THE GAME
I am not trying to start an argument. If my assumptions are wrong, tell me why they're wrong.
Funnily enough, plenty of other people play the game and plenty of other people know what they're talking about, and a lot of those people disagree with you (myself included).
If you think my posts are too stupid to reply to, then fine, ignore them. But, for your own good, don't make anymore posts in the same vane as above. No one is giving you respect for it.
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On June 15 2010 06:52 iamtt1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 06:43 OneOther wrote:And an upgrade to allow a unit isn't really a Protoss construction mechanic. The Spire->Greater Spire upgrade is more of a Zerg thing. It would be just as good to make the Dark Shrine require the Templar Archives to be built and just build faster as a result (50, instead of 100), but that's neither here nor there. Just a way to slow things down, although admittedly, I'd prefer either of those over the current system. Actually, this is a viable idea. Just borrow a Zerg building system and make the Dark Shrine an upgrade from Templar Archives. (Similar to Gateway -> Warp Gate) yea well thats what tester basically said in his interview with artosis, you would need to have the templar archive upgrade on the dark shrine(but the upgrade has to be short and cheap) so youd have enought time to set ur exp up but who knows if even an increase in HT tech speed would make the b.o work(its just a theory for now), there are still sooo many variables that nobody has tested out yet
the problem with this is that DTs come out later if the upgrade takes a significant time. if it doesnt, then why have an upgrade in the first place?
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No offense Swede, but TT1 is a pretty well-known player in the community and you have about 10 posts. While not to say that your opinions/views are wrong based on this alone, his word does have substantially more pull because he plays at top levels and has for quite a while.
I think more people are 'giving him respect for it' than you are giving credit for.
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On June 15 2010 06:34 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 06:28 yarkO wrote:
@ Bibdy
What, if anything, does build time have to do with the fundamental problem pointed out in the OP?
It's been suggested many (many) times throughout the thread that if merging the buildings makes DTs come out too fast, then to add an upgrade to the Templar Archives that allows you to build DTs to cover that gap.
The problem isn't how fast they come out, it's that there is no follow-up that doesn't leave you quite far behind. He wants teching DTs to be safe. Speed is an important factor in how safe something is. If it took a full minute longer than the SCBW version, then I'd call it unsafe. But, since its basically identical, why is it not safe? Because a Protoss who opens Robo in T2 is going to counter you? Why would you then complain about lack of strategic variety when someone going Robo beats someone going DT, someone going DT beats someone going 4-Gate push, someone going 4-Gate push beats someone going Void Rays and so on. And an upgrade to allow a unit isn't really a Protoss construction mechanic. The Spire->Greater Spire upgrade is more of a Zerg thing. It would be just as good to make the Dark Shrine require the Templar Archives to be built and just build faster as a result (50, instead of 100), but that's neither here nor there. Just a way to slow things down, although admittedly, I'd prefer either of those over the current system. I really wouldn't go around calling it a 'fundamental problem', either. Its more a preference of style. He just wants to feel cool being the guy who figured out that DT-rushing is the only safe way to fast expand. Worked great in SCBW, because Observers come out slow, forcing someone to make Cannons (thereby allowing you to expand), but doesn't work in SC2 anymore. Why does that mean it needs fixing? That's kinda boring, isn't it?
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
The DT rusher makes cannons in BW, not the one getting rushed. This is because he has no Robotics/Observer tech to stop DTs if his or her opponent goes DTs themselves.
The reason the DT rusher in BW can expand fast is map control due to DTs being in play. Even with Robotics up, it wasn't just as easy as walking over your opponent. He needs an Observer at home to prevent any DT harass. That took a little bit of time. He also needed an Observer and Reaver to break your natural, which consisted of cannons (2-3), small handful of gateway units, templars with storm, perhaps a left over DT or two to flank with from behind/the side, and even a shield battery if you thought it was warranted.
So, while the Robotics user prepares his push, the DTProtoss built two High Templar immediately, researched Dragoon Range and also more importantly Storm from the same Templar Archives that allowed them to produce Dark Templar. When the Reaver bust finally got to your front door you had an effective followup to DTs and with some good Storms you could survive the bust attempt.
In Starcraft 2, since you spend 250 gas to only build a couple DTs that most likely get stopped, you don't have enough time or resources to be able to get any other high tech units to stop the Gateway and Robo flood heading for your expansion. There is no followup to DTs in PvP that allows you to live into the mid game.
WHY does that need fixing? Because PVP has a limited number of builds that completely make all the other cool stuff Protoss have worthless. BW PVP, a 12 year old game not even designed with ESPORTS in mind, has more depth than a brand new sequel that is supposed to be interesting enough to push ESPORTS to the next level.
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On June 15 2010 07:02 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 06:52 iamtt1 wrote:On June 15 2010 06:43 OneOther wrote:And an upgrade to allow a unit isn't really a Protoss construction mechanic. The Spire->Greater Spire upgrade is more of a Zerg thing. It would be just as good to make the Dark Shrine require the Templar Archives to be built and just build faster as a result (50, instead of 100), but that's neither here nor there. Just a way to slow things down, although admittedly, I'd prefer either of those over the current system. Actually, this is a viable idea. Just borrow a Zerg building system and make the Dark Shrine an upgrade from Templar Archives. (Similar to Gateway -> Warp Gate) yea well thats what tester basically said in his interview with artosis, you would need to have the templar archive upgrade on the dark shrine(but the upgrade has to be short and cheap) so youd have enought time to set ur exp up but who knows if even an increase in HT tech speed would make the b.o work(its just a theory for now), there are still sooo many variables that nobody has tested out yet the problem with this is that DTs come out later if the upgrade takes a significant time. if it doesnt, then why have an upgrade in the first place?
Because you will have the HT tech already available. It is nice to have a transition to go into after the DT's are out and this helps with that getting storm and an expansion going at the same time.
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On June 15 2010 06:59 Swede wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 06:19 iamtt1 wrote:
uhhh you still have no idea what my argument is, the dt itself is irrelevant to this discussion, you have no knowledge of the subject so when you see the word DT in a sentence you immediately just make bullshit assumptions.. even after 7 pages your still clueless and this is why the poll was made the way it was
also the poll was not made to justify if im right or wrong, i know im right because i play the game and i know what im talking about.. u still dont even understand what the topic is, the poll is asking gamers if they would be for or against this type of a b.o in sc2 PvP because as it is this style of PvP DOES NOT EXIST IN THE GAME I am not trying to start an argument. If my assumptions are wrong, tell me why they're wrong. Funnily enough, plenty of other people play the game and plenty of other people know what they're talking about, and a lot of those people disagree with you (myself included). If you think my posts are too stupid to reply to, then fine, ignore them. But, for your own good, don't make anymore posts in the same vane as above. No one is giving you respect for it.
might have been a little harsh but if i didnt care about your post i wouldnt have even replied to it, sorry i wasnt trying to be an ass
<3 pls understand that im not here to put anyone down or to pick a fight, but you have to put yourself in my shoes aswell
also theres nothing to disagree with per-se, you either think sc2 PvP is fine the way it is or you think it the mu still needs an extra element, the dt into expansion build in this case
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On June 15 2010 07:02 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 06:34 Bibdy wrote:On June 15 2010 06:28 yarkO wrote:
@ Bibdy
What, if anything, does build time have to do with the fundamental problem pointed out in the OP?
It's been suggested many (many) times throughout the thread that if merging the buildings makes DTs come out too fast, then to add an upgrade to the Templar Archives that allows you to build DTs to cover that gap.
The problem isn't how fast they come out, it's that there is no follow-up that doesn't leave you quite far behind. He wants teching DTs to be safe. Speed is an important factor in how safe something is. If it took a full minute longer than the SCBW version, then I'd call it unsafe. But, since its basically identical, why is it not safe? Because a Protoss who opens Robo in T2 is going to counter you? Why would you then complain about lack of strategic variety when someone going Robo beats someone going DT, someone going DT beats someone going 4-Gate push, someone going 4-Gate push beats someone going Void Rays and so on. And an upgrade to allow a unit isn't really a Protoss construction mechanic. The Spire->Greater Spire upgrade is more of a Zerg thing. It would be just as good to make the Dark Shrine require the Templar Archives to be built and just build faster as a result (50, instead of 100), but that's neither here nor there. Just a way to slow things down, although admittedly, I'd prefer either of those over the current system. I really wouldn't go around calling it a 'fundamental problem', either. Its more a preference of style. He just wants to feel cool being the guy who figured out that DT-rushing is the only safe way to fast expand. Worked great in SCBW, because Observers come out slow, forcing someone to make Cannons (thereby allowing you to expand), but doesn't work in SC2 anymore. Why does that mean it needs fixing? That's kinda boring, isn't it? Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh The DT rusher makes cannons in BW, not the one getting rushed. This is because he has no Robotics/Observer tech to stop DTs if his or her opponent goes DTs themselves. The reason the DT rusher in BW can expand fast is map control due to DTs being in play. Even with Robotics up, it wasn't just as easy as walking over your opponent. He needs an Observer at home to prevent any DT harass. That took a little bit of time. He also needed an Observer and Reaver to break your natural, which consisted of cannons (2-3), small handful of gateway units, templars with storm, perhaps a left over DT or two to flank with from behind/the side, and even a shield battery if you thought it was warranted. So, while the Robotics user prepares his push, the DTProtoss built two High Templar immediately, researched Dragoon Range and also more importantly Storm from the same Templar Archives that allowed them to produce Dark Templar. When the Reaver bust finally got to your front door you had an effective followup to DTs and with some good Storms you could survive the bust attempt. In Starcraft 2, since you spend 250 gas to only build a couple DTs that most likely get stopped, you don't have enough time or resources to be able to get any other high tech units to stop the Gateway and Robo flood heading for your expansion. There is no followup to DTs in PvP that allows you to live into the mid game.WHY does that need fixing? Because PVP has a limited number of builds that completely make all the other cool stuff Protoss have worthless. BW PVP, a 12 year old game not even designed with ESPORTS in mind, has more depth than a brand new sequel that is supposed to be interesting enough to push ESPORTS to the next level.
You're talking about a LOT of changes to make that kind of thing viable. You aren't thinking far enough ahead. Let's say that that HTs and DTs both come from the TA. Now what? You want HTs to be a 'somewhat viable' counter to Collossi, Immortals and even Void Rays and Phoenixes (Stargates are a somewhat viable T2 opener now, too) all in one?
These aren't the same units you were facing in that first SCBW push. They're totally different. Psi Storm pretty much blows in PvP and Feedback is good against what...Phoenixes and Sentries? They're not going to help you kill really anything else a Protoss can throw at you. The easiest things to reach after DTs, that don't suck, are Void Rays, Phoenixes or Immortals.
Phoenixes seem to be a popular choice these days, since spamming the things with all of that excess gas from your expansion is a good way to trump a wad of Stalkers and Sentries.
Hell, getting a quick Warp Prism and harassing with DT warp-ins while he tries to expand is going to net more gain than HTs. Better yet, hold the fort while you get an Observers AND Phoenixes, spot his Observer, nuke it and wipe the floor with DTs.
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On June 15 2010 07:03 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 07:02 clickrush wrote:On June 15 2010 06:52 iamtt1 wrote:On June 15 2010 06:43 OneOther wrote:And an upgrade to allow a unit isn't really a Protoss construction mechanic. The Spire->Greater Spire upgrade is more of a Zerg thing. It would be just as good to make the Dark Shrine require the Templar Archives to be built and just build faster as a result (50, instead of 100), but that's neither here nor there. Just a way to slow things down, although admittedly, I'd prefer either of those over the current system. Actually, this is a viable idea. Just borrow a Zerg building system and make the Dark Shrine an upgrade from Templar Archives. (Similar to Gateway -> Warp Gate) yea well thats what tester basically said in his interview with artosis, you would need to have the templar archive upgrade on the dark shrine(but the upgrade has to be short and cheap) so youd have enought time to set ur exp up but who knows if even an increase in HT tech speed would make the b.o work(its just a theory for now), there are still sooo many variables that nobody has tested out yet the problem with this is that DTs come out later if the upgrade takes a significant time. if it doesnt, then why have an upgrade in the first place? Because you will have the HT tech already available. It is nice to have a transition to go into after the DT's are out and this helps with that getting storm and an expansion going at the same time.
well ok, but then it should be the exact other way around: build shrine->upgrade for HT.
I find it flawed both ways. somehow many agree that a simple tech merge shouldnt be done.
then why not give the shrine an upgrade that widens the DT tech? so you actually have time to transition into robo/gate/ht?
edit: maybe the answer lies within the archons?
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On June 15 2010 07:03 iamtt1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 06:59 Swede wrote:On June 15 2010 06:19 iamtt1 wrote:
uhhh you still have no idea what my argument is, the dt itself is irrelevant to this discussion, you have no knowledge of the subject so when you see the word DT in a sentence you immediately just make bullshit assumptions.. even after 7 pages your still clueless and this is why the poll was made the way it was
also the poll was not made to justify if im right or wrong, i know im right because i play the game and i know what im talking about.. u still dont even understand what the topic is, the poll is asking gamers if they would be for or against this type of a b.o in sc2 PvP because as it is this style of PvP DOES NOT EXIST IN THE GAME I am not trying to start an argument. If my assumptions are wrong, tell me why they're wrong. Funnily enough, plenty of other people play the game and plenty of other people know what they're talking about, and a lot of those people disagree with you (myself included). If you think my posts are too stupid to reply to, then fine, ignore them. But, for your own good, don't make anymore posts in the same vane as above. No one is giving you respect for it. might have been a little harsh but if i didnt care about your post i wouldnt have even replied to it, sorry i wasnt trying to be an ass <3 pls understand that im not here to put anyone down or to pick a fight, but you have to put yourself in my shoes aswell also theres nothing to disagree with per-se, you either think sc2 PvP is fine the way it is or you think it the mu still needs an extra element, the dt into expansion build in this case
And I apologise if I come across as an ass too. When I'm debating things I often do because of the way I write things.
I would like to reiterate that I don't necessarily disagree with you. I mean, it would certainly be cool to see DTs used more extensively than they are now (though I have no real problem with them now either), BUT on the other hand I don't feel like SC2 strategy has had enough time to develop to be going round changing things as much as removing the Dark Shrine or something.
What I disagreed with was your way of arguing that the issue was an issue. In hindsight I may have been a little hasty, but often I just get caught up in trying to prove myself right (regardless of whether I am, or even whether I think I am).
Anyway, I have work now. Good day
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On June 15 2010 07:02 yarkO wrote:
No offense Swede, but TT1 is a pretty well-known player in the community and you have about 10 posts. While not to say that your opinions/views are wrong based on this alone, his word does have substantially more pull because he plays at top levels and has for quite a while.
I think more people are 'giving him respect for it' than you are giving credit for.
So TT1 stop hacking and actually got good enough at the game for people to take him seriously? or People new to TL just doesn't know about him being a disgraceful hacker? No one gives him respect here at LT, if all you new people knew about what he did.
On April 26 2008 09:41 Chill wrote:
TT1 made no effort to reform, he's hacked for years, he's hacked in the last year, and he's hacker in tournaments with prizes. Fuck 'im.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=69916
there are so many evidence in TL about this guy, Why is he unbanned in the first place?? Or am I mistaken this imTT1 withthe hacker known as TT1, if that's the case i apologize.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 15 2010 07:45 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 07:02 yarkO wrote:
No offense Swede, but TT1 is a pretty well-known player in the community and you have about 10 posts. While not to say that your opinions/views are wrong based on this alone, his word does have substantially more pull because he plays at top levels and has for quite a while.
I think more people are 'giving him respect for it' than you are giving credit for. So TT1 stop hacking and actually got good enough at the game for people to take him seriously? or People new to TL just doesn't know about him being a disgraceful hacker? No one gives him respect here at LT, if all you new people knew about what he did. Show nested quote +On April 26 2008 09:41 Chill wrote:
TT1 made no effort to reform, he's hacked for years, he's hacked in the last year, and he's hacker in tournaments with prizes. Fuck 'im. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=69916there are so many evidence in TL about this guy, Why is he unbanned in the first place?? Or am I mistaken this imTT1 withthe hacker known as TT1, if that's the case i apologize.
either way: noone cares about this in this thread. this discussion is about the DT opening in pvp.
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His name has long-since been cleared, as evidenced by his (allowed) participation in several TL run events.
Let's not venture off-topic though.
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EPT
