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The inefficiency of DT tech in PvP - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
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rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
June 14 2010 22:49 GMT
#161
oh yes you should care, because Yarko is putting TT1's reputation on the table as the reason why everybody should respect his opinion instead of TT1's logic in his discussion.
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10004 Posts
June 14 2010 22:51 GMT
#162
i never forced anyone to respect me, everyones entitled to their own opinion
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
June 14 2010 22:54 GMT
#163
On June 15 2010 07:49 rei wrote:
oh yes you should care, because Yarko is putting TT1's reputation on the table as the reason why everybody should respect his opinion instead of TT1's logic in his discussion.


Ok I put it simple for you:

Discuss "DT tech opening in PvP" here? ->Yes

Discuss "opinions about players" here? ->No

I actually find this discussion very interesting. What is your opinion about it?
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
June 14 2010 23:21 GMT
#164
My opinion is that I am no where good enough at the game to suggest a balance changes, so instead of saying
On June 13 2010 09:53 iamtt1 wrote:
Its impossible to be in a decent position after dt rushing.


I will say how can i put myself in a decent position after DT rushing? To say the word "Impossible" signifying he's the best player out there who knows everything inside and out about the game, and if he can't make it work no one else can make it work, hence the phase "impossible to be" I bet That's why he resulted in hacking back then, he thought it was impossible to get do something and has the need to get better, but he wasn't getting anywhere, so he satisfy his ego with map hack and win games with it.

Ok, that's about it for TT1 bashing, you can't defend that hacker, he deserts every disrespect for what he did. I for one would like to rebut this
On June 13 2010 09:53 iamtt1 wrote:
Its impossible to be in a decent position after dt rushing.

Where you say it is impossible, i will attempt to give you some possibilities
1) DT Rush--->force field ramp-----> expo
2) DT rush ----> robo-----> snipe his observer with your stalker+observer----> expo
3)DT rush----->expo----> hallucination colosousi to by you time till expo kicks in.
4) DT rush -----> DT drop ----------> island expo with force field on your own ramp to prevent yourself from getting pwn.

PS. i'm the only one managed to pwned both Chill and Kennegit 2v1, in a drag out macro game, no cheeses and both of them had a huge army, and i got replays to prove it!
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
Ouga
Profile Joined March 2008
Finland645 Posts
June 14 2010 23:28 GMT
#165
I like how DTs aren't as all around effective in SC2 as they were in BW. They tend to rely too much on luck, too often they end up causing gamewinning effect if opponent has, say, no overseer up, and sometimes they're just useless if there's two well placed turrets waiting. Sure, suppose all unexpected works the same, VRs even more so, but it's not really the enjoyable part of the game to be guessing which tech is proxy'd in time before you can have stuff like patrolling vikings or speedovies searching all the parts of the map.

If currently it is slow allin that has no solid comeback, I'm happy Totally a unit that doesn't deserve to become part of every game in SC2.
yarkO
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada810 Posts
June 14 2010 23:30 GMT
#166
1) DT Rush--->force field ramp-----> expo


If you DT rush, you don't have gas for Sentries. By this logic, you could just go Sentry > Force Field Ramp > Expo. If anything, going DT > FF > Expo, you are just setting yourself further behind.

2) DT rush ----> robo-----> snipe his observer with your stalker+observer----> expo


Or fall over and die while you try to get a Robotics + Obs + Stalkers in a gas starved build vs someone who masses Warpgate + Robo units.

3)DT rush----->expo----> hallucination colosousi to by you time till expo kicks in.


DT rush > Expo dies to anything that makes Observers and units. It's not a safe transition. And if he knows you have DTs, do you really think he will be fooled by a Hallucinated Colossus? lol...

4) DT rush -----> DT drop ----------> island expo with force field on your own ramp to prevent yourself from getting pwn.


I think I tried to go Warp Prism + DTs once and unless you win the game with the drop, any kind of counter attack just slaughters your lack of units at home.


Are you starting to see why there is an issue with DT openings? You can't move past them.
When you are prepared, there's no such thing as pressure.
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-14 23:39:01
June 14 2010 23:35 GMT
#167
Stop using the word "you" you are not me, you can't be me, stop assuming what I can not do. Try to think of a way on how I can do what I say I can do. Just because you think I can't do something does not mean I can't do it, your assumption is only as good as your knowledge of my games.

Are you starting to get the point i'm trying to make here now? Just because you can't do something don't say others can't.

Just because TT1 thinks it is impossible for soemthing to be done, does not make it true, and even if it is true, it does not justify a balance change. pvp is as perfectly balanced as possible.
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
yarkO
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada810 Posts
June 14 2010 23:42 GMT
#168
Meh, I'm done replying to you. You seem to lack basic understanding of the game.

Hint: You can't type 'show me the money'.
When you are prepared, there's no such thing as pressure.
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-14 23:47:07
June 14 2010 23:43 GMT
#169
On June 15 2010 08:42 yarkO wrote:
Meh, I'm done replying to you. You seem to lack basic understanding of the game.

Hint: You can't type 'show me the money'.


I beat both Chill and Kennigit 2v1, Neither of them can deny it, you think you can beat me? bring it, i show you my lack of basic understanding of the game.

Oh Thank you for turning this discussion from DT transition into my lack of basic understanding of the game, because you create more opportunity for me to brag about my 2v1 glorious victory over Chill and Kennigit
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-14 23:50:11
June 14 2010 23:48 GMT
#170
On June 15 2010 08:35 rei wrote:
Stop using the word "you" you are not me, you can't be me, stop assuming what I can not do. Try to think of a way on how I can do what I say I can do. Just because you think I can't do something does not mean I can't do it, your assumption is only as good as your knowledge of my games.

Are you starting to get the point i'm trying to make here now? Just because you can't do something don't say others can't.

Just because TT1 thinks it is impossible for soemthing to be done, does not make it true, and even if it is true, it does not justify a balance change. pvp is as perfectly balanced as possible.


pvp is very well balanced as a matchup because both sides have both options. this would also be true if protoss had only probes.

and since "you" dont have a magic vespene gas farting donkey, "you" will not have spare gas with a DT opening. I think the observer+stalker switch is a bit slow because of this.

edit: but if you have proof then show us!
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
Bibdy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3481 Posts
June 14 2010 23:50 GMT
#171
On June 15 2010 08:30 yarkO wrote:
Are you starting to see why there is an issue with DT openings? You can't move past them.


I agree with that completely, but even if HTs were more easily accessible after a DT opener, what could you do with them? They pretty much suck in PvP and not because they're hard to get. Because they just don't inflict damage, forced micro and area denial on the same level as SCBW's HT. There are only two other units in the Protoss force that use energy, so unless your plan is to Feedback all of his Sentries and storm his force with ungodly amounts of Chargelots and Archons, there isn't a whole lot you can do with the things. Sadly, either Blinkers or Collossi are just going to rape that combo.

The extent of the changes you're looking for to make the line viable is a little extreme, I think. Even if they came from the same building, it would still be a horribly weak followup.
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10004 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-14 23:56:04
June 14 2010 23:54 GMT
#172
On June 15 2010 08:35 rei wrote:
Stop using the word "you" you are not me, you can't be me, stop assuming what I can not do. Try to think of a way on how I can do what I say I can do. Just because you think I can't do something does not mean I can't do it, your assumption is only as good as your knowledge of my games.

Are you starting to get the point i'm trying to make here now? Just because you can't do something don't say others can't.

Just because TT1 thinks it is impossible for soemthing to be done, does not make it true, and even if it is true, it does not justify a balance change. pvp is as perfectly balanced as possible.


its hard for a mirror mu to be imbalanced and your dt transitions are awesome, iccup/sc2 beta max rank?
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
Infiltrator
Profile Joined February 2010
Montenegro80 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-06-14 23:59:22
June 14 2010 23:58 GMT
#173
Stop using the word "you" you are not me, you can't be me, stop assuming what I can not do. Try to think of a way on how I can do what I say I can do. Just because you think I can't do something does not mean I can't do it, your assumption is only as good as your knowledge of my games.

Are you starting to get the point i'm trying to make here now? Just because you can't do something don't say others can't.

Just because TT1 thinks it is impossible for soemthing to be done, does not make it true, and even if it is true, it does not justify a balance change. pvp is as perfectly balanced as possible.

I think you're taking the word impossible to literally.

I agree that once you do your DT, you are left with very little flexibility, and my opinion is based around the very known facts that DT tech is a very expensive, time consuming process which leads you to the end of a tech tree with only DTs unlocked.

Whether or not he maphacked is completely and utterly irrelevant here, and the very mention of this immediately puts you in a bad argumentative position since you are resorting to a textbook ad hominem.

Naturally, after you did your fair round of namecalling, you resort to listing strategies that are beyond the realm of viability. DT > Expo? Seriously? Like anything with an observer is not going to crap all over your expo and non-existing army.
Infiltrator out.
Kfish
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Chile282 Posts
June 15 2010 00:00 GMT
#174
put DT tech back like BW and give zergs back their passive overlord detector.
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
June 15 2010 00:04 GMT
#175
On June 15 2010 08:54 iamtt1 wrote:
its hard for a mirror mu to be imbalanced and your dt transitions are awesome, iccup/sc2 beta max rank?


you want a piece of me?
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
faction123
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Belgium949 Posts
June 15 2010 00:05 GMT
#176
On June 15 2010 08:35 rei wrote:
Stop using the word "you" you are not me, you can't be me, stop assuming what I can not do. Try to think of a way on how I can do what I say I can do. Just because you think I can't do something does not mean I can't do it, your assumption is only as good as your knowledge of my games.

Are you starting to get the point i'm trying to make here now? Just because you can't do something don't say others can't.

Just because TT1 thinks it is impossible for soemthing to be done, does not make it true, and even if it is true, it does not justify a balance change. pvp is as perfectly balanced as possible.


reps? that's a good way to give us knowledge of your games, friend
clickrush
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Switzerland3257 Posts
June 15 2010 00:05 GMT
#177
just a thought: maybe there are some maps (LT/steppes of war?) where some well placed cannons could allow for a expo after DT opening. cannons have the same sightrange as observers. could be tricky...
oGsMC: Zealot defense, Stalker attack, Sentry forcefieldu forcefieldu, Marauder die die
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10004 Posts
June 15 2010 00:06 GMT
#178
On June 15 2010 09:04 rei wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2010 08:54 iamtt1 wrote:
its hard for a mirror mu to be imbalanced and your dt transitions are awesome, iccup/sc2 beta max rank?


you want a piece of me?


when the beta comes back up sure, bo7?
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
June 15 2010 00:07 GMT
#179
On June 15 2010 09:05 faction123 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 15 2010 08:35 rei wrote:
Stop using the word "you" you are not me, you can't be me, stop assuming what I can not do. Try to think of a way on how I can do what I say I can do. Just because you think I can't do something does not mean I can't do it, your assumption is only as good as your knowledge of my games.

Are you starting to get the point i'm trying to make here now? Just because you can't do something don't say others can't.

Just because TT1 thinks it is impossible for soemthing to be done, does not make it true, and even if it is true, it does not justify a balance change. pvp is as perfectly balanced as possible.


reps? that's a good way to give us knowledge of your games, friend


http://www.starcraft-replay.com/replays/chill-kennigit-vs-rei-ivyhae-1271690985.php

There you go
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
Sylvr
Profile Joined May 2010
United States524 Posts
June 15 2010 00:08 GMT
#180
On June 15 2010 08:58 Infiltrator wrote:


Whether or not he maphacked is completely and utterly irrelevant here, and the very mention of this immediately puts you in a bad argumentative position since you are resorting to a textbook ad hominem.


To be fair, the argument started with "argumentum ad verecundiam" (argument from authority). Tit for tat, and all that jazz.
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