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I brought this point up in another thread because i feel like this is a topic that needs more attention. As of now, the thing that worrys me the most about protoss is how inefficient dt techs are in pvp because its impossible to transition into a safe macro build(i.e fast expansion) due to the build time and cost of both the dark shrine and templar archive(impossible to get storm before dying), imo this makes the mu very 1 dimentional, essentially its handicapping it by removing a whole tech branch.
The difference is unlike individual unit imbalances the problem lies within the building mechanics, which is much more worrisome because it can easily effect the balance of other mu's if u try tweaking it around.
Most pvp's only revolve around robo play or 4g/3g b.os, its impossible to dt because if u do and if it gets blocked(which it does 99% of the time, the only way dt rushs work is if u get lucky and ur oppo doesnt robo or if he robos late, this statement alone shows theres a flaw with the tech because in a game ur never supposed to rely on what your opponent does) your automaticly screwed because theres nothing to transition into, in sc1 pvp there were alot of follow ups to a dt rush, players wouldnt necessarily dt to kill their opponents, if u did it was a plus but even if ur build was perfectly countered by your opponent it still wouldnt put you in a huge disadvantage.
In sc2 its impossible to follow up a dt rush without dying(or without being put in a big disadvantage), if u go for a macro build ud end up getting overrun.. the possiblitys of a bust are endless, theres the 2g or 3g mass unit+immortal bust from the front, theres the collo bust, your opponent can also make a pylon outside of your base and warp units in by simply using an ob as a high ground spotter, or he could do a warp prism elevator (version 2.0, imagine trying to defend vs an elevator + instant reinforcements lol)... there are soooo many holes, it would be impossible to defend vs all the possibilities, this problem is mostly due to not having enought time to temp tech(due to the cost of the templar archive and the build time), even if you do have enought time to tech to temps + storm the cost of the tech is so high that its impossible to have any supporting units.. the other alternative b.o to a dt opener would be allining which again is easy to counter(3g stalker blink/4g mass zeal + charge etc.).
Its impossible to be in a decent position after dt rushing.. your opponent already has an ob out so he can see whatever b.o you decide to transition into, ur basically dead because EVERY follow up to a dt rush is so easy to counter, i challenge anyone to come up with a macro build that u can transition into after dt rushing (assuming your dt rush was blocked) that is safe vs every b.o.. theres nothing you can do
One way of fixing this problem would be to fuse the dark shrine + the templar archive into 1 building like in sc1 but the problem with that is who knows how this would effect the balance within the other mus. I remember Tester talking about adding an upgrade to the dark shrine itself in one of Artosis's interviews which could be a viable option, adding a warpgate-esque tech(kinda like spire > greater spire) to the dark shrine could work if the upgrade time of the templar archive is fast and if the cost is cheap, or you could change up the tech tree (i prefer this alternative because it feels less far fetched and it basically gives the same outcome), for example instead of it being twilight council > templar archive + dark shrine, the tech tree could be twilight council > dark shrine > templar archive but the archive tech needs to be cheap and the build time has to be short.
EDIT 1: Basically heres a breakdown of the main point of my post for our non bw bretherens. The building time/cost of the dark shrine and the building time/cost of the templar archive make it impossible to follow up dt openings into storm in order to transition into a fast expansion after dt rushing, this was one of the fundemental openers in bw pvp. Removing this aspect in sc2 pvp takes away a huge part of the metagame, finding a fix to this problem would add a new dimension to the mu, because imo as of now the matchup is incomplete.
i would love to hear the opinions of the more experienced players on this matter, agree or disagree? if u disagree pls elaborate
EDIT 2: added a poll, PLS ANSWER ACCORDINGLY!
Poll: Should there be a viable DT into fast expand build in SC2 pvp?Yes (i come from a BW background) (91) 44% Yes (i come from a non BW background) (52) 25% No (i come from a BW background) (48) 23% No (i come from a non BW background) (16) 8% 207 total votes Your vote: Should there be a viable DT into fast expand build in SC2 pvp? (Vote): Yes (i come from a BW background)
(Vote): No (i come from a BW background)
(Vote): Yes (i come from a non BW background)
(Vote): No (i come from a non BW background)
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On June 13 2010 09:53 iamtt1 wrote:
because it can easily effect the balance of other mu's if u try tweaking it around.
Most pvp's only revolve around robo play or 4g/3g b.os, its impossible to dt because if u do and if it gets blocked(which it does 99% of the time, the only way dt rushs work is if u get lucky and ur oppo doesnt robo or if he robos late, this statement alone shows theres a flaw with the unit because in a game ur never supposed to rely on what your opponent does) your automaticly screwed because theres nothing to transition into, in sc1 pvp there were alot of follow ups u could do to a dt rush, players wouldnt necessarily dt to kill their opponents, if u did it was a plus but even if ur build was perfectly countered by your opponent it still wouldnt put you in a huge disadvantage.
i would love to hear the opinions of the more experienced players on this matter, agree or disagree? if u disagree pls elaborate
That's your problem ur alwais supposed to rely and react to what your opponent is doing, yes DT dont have much use but that is normal, not every unit is supposed to be use in every matchup lets take an example of lets say SC1
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1) it is not a balance problem when X rush doesnt work in Y matchup
2) lategame DT drops are usefull to harass undefended areas. the damage/cost is bigger than any other drop you can make and the distraction is more intense because of the need of mobile detection to snipe the DTs.
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On June 13 2010 10:00 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 09:53 iamtt1 wrote:
because it can easily effect the balance of other mu's if u try tweaking it around.
Most pvp's only revolve around robo play or 4g/3g b.os, its impossible to dt because if u do and if it gets blocked(which it does 99% of the time, the only way dt rushs work is if u get lucky and ur oppo doesnt robo or if he robos late, this statement alone shows theres a flaw with the unit because in a game ur never supposed to rely on what your opponent does) your automaticly screwed because theres nothing to transition into, in sc1 pvp there were alot of follow ups u could do to a dt rush, players wouldnt necessarily dt to kill their opponents, if u did it was a plus but even if ur build was perfectly countered by your opponent it still wouldnt put you in a huge disadvantage.
i would love to hear the opinions of the more experienced players on this matter, agree or disagree? if u disagree pls elaborate That's your problem ur alwais supposed to rely and react to what your opponent is doing, yes DT dont have much use but that is normal, not every unit is supposed to be use in every matchup lets take an example of lets say SC1
and lets take the example of sc1 where dts were actually viable. sc1 pvp was essentially a trio of techs: observer first, reaver first, and dt first. each had a decent chance against the other. sc1, not so much. you will always go robo first, regardless of what you're doing, because templar tech and dt tech are both very very fragile.
also, the problem isnt BALANCE, because mirrors are technically always "balanced". the problem is that the mu is broken, its "one-dimensional"
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On June 13 2010 10:00 Darkren wrote:
That's your problem ur alwais supposed to rely and react to what your opponent is doing, yes DT dont have much use but that is normal, not every unit is supposed to be use in every matchup lets take an example of lets say SC1
Is anyone asking for DTs to be used in every matchup? DTs are used a lot.. wait, let me stress that.. a LOT less than they ever were in BW for a number of reasons. The first one being the very obvious time and resource investment coupled with the split from the HT tech.
As for the OP - yes DTs are usually a crap choice and will fail against anything but a 4gate allin (which is rare on single entrance bases), and yes this is a problem as PVP is probably the most predictable/boring mu.
I am not sure how this would be solved. There are several possibilities but any of them would affect the other matchups.
In my opinion, the only mu DTs are worth getting is against Terrans, due to the harder availability of their mobile detector.
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Funny because DTs are my favorite way to win in PvP, and yes at diamond league. No they don't work every time, but the vast majority of players I've faced go 4 gate. Those who get Robo don't even get an obs sometimes, as they'd rather spend the gas on getting those immortal/collo out (like how in TvT it's a game of chicken who will give up a MULE to scan.)
People seem to be under the impression that going DTs either fails or succeeds, meaning if they fail you lose the game right there or if they succeed you win automatically. They allow you to contain your opponent and drastically slow his expansion rate. Now every mineral line he needs at least 2 photons or he risks losing many probes. Meanwhile you can expand and take map control much more easily.
Think outside of the ball v ball playstyle.
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I've found that DTs are useful in PvP, even when you're vs'ing robo tech. It works wonders vs 4gate.
I really think dts are vastly underestimated. 45 damage is nothing to sneeze at.
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T and Z both need much more ressource investment to counter cloaked units than in BW. DTs are very strong in this matchups as openeners and mid/late harassers. the templar tech split counterbalances that.
In PvP i would solely use them against 4 gate or lategame. probably also midgame against robotech because you force him to make more obs instead of colossi. if you have your own observers then you might get 1-2 chances to snipe his and delay pushes etc.
There is no balance problem with DTs.
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Think about what you have just said, and think about the usage of ghosts. Ghosts are really mainly used for TvP, and RARELY EVER used for TvZ or TvT
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On June 13 2010 10:27 lyk503 wrote:
Think about what you have just said, and think about the usage of ghosts. Ghosts are really mainly used for TvP, and RARELY EVER used for TvZ or TvT
ghosts are very important in TvZ to protect your thors.
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.... i dont want to sound like an ass but this is why i asked for the opinions of more experienced players, most of you dont even understand what im talking about.. you just come up with a random 2 line post that has nothing to do with the topic
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On June 13 2010 10:29 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 10:27 lyk503 wrote:
Think about what you have just said, and think about the usage of ghosts. Ghosts are really mainly used for TvP, and RARELY EVER used for TvZ or TvT ghosts are very important in TvZ to protect your thors.
I'm not sure I follow. Would the ghost be sniping Mutas/zerglings or something? The 150 (I think) gas needed for ghost is so high (and don't forget about the ghost academy) that I think that there are WAAAY better options.
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I've only used DT's in PvP a few times. I would just play defensively and snipe his observers with the army so I could back some units off and let the DT's rape, but that wasn't really a decent strategy.. I don't think DT's are really effective in PvP, but I really dont think they can be changed either as it could change PvZ and PvT too much. Also you could scout before and see if your opponent is committing heavy to a 4 warpgate build. If you can get enough to hold it off and get the tech going that could work really well. I agree that DT's aren't seen in PvP much, but I don't see a change coming as they are effective in other match ups.
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If you're not using Phoenix, you have no right to complain that PvP is boring.
I've not been very impressed with DT builds in any matchup, but bear in mind that DT allows you to backtech Charge or Blink, and if your opponent doesn't have at least two observers (one in their base and one with their army) they can't move out, because you can either DT counter or cut up their army. A DT rush followed by some combination of Speedlot/Sentry/DT/Archon might be viable against robo openings.
But, seriously, if you want to rape Robo openings, get Phoenix.
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units don't need to be usable in every match up. Look at how the corsair was almost never used in anything except pvz. that is to say, i think its okay that there is no solid opening with dts, its not just pvp, pvt and pvz has similar abilities to detect and fight dts if they are scouted. i do think dts are underpowered at the moment due to the extra building (which btw is still too tall and makes it harder to click buildings built behind it)
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On June 13 2010 10:36 Severedevil wrote:
If you're not using Phoenix, you have no right to complain that PvP is boring.
I've not been very impressed with DT builds in any matchup, but bear in mind that DT allows you to backtech Charge or Blink, and if your opponent doesn't have at least two observers (one in their base and one with their army) they can't move out, because you can either DT counter or cut up their army. A DT rush followed by some combination of Speedlot/Sentry/DT/Archon might be viable against robo openings.
But, seriously, if you want to rape Robo openings, get Phoenix.
Your thoughts on the ineffectiveness of DT's is to use another unit?
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On June 13 2010 10:33 lyk503 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 10:29 clickrush wrote:On June 13 2010 10:27 lyk503 wrote:
Think about what you have just said, and think about the usage of ghosts. Ghosts are really mainly used for TvP, and RARELY EVER used for TvZ or TvT ghosts are very important in TvZ to protect your thors. I'm not sure I follow. Would the ghost be sniping Mutas/zerglings or something? The 150 (I think) gas needed for ghost is so high (and don't forget about the ghost academy) that I think that there are WAAAY better options.
I think he means to EMP an infestor so it can't use NP, I could be wrong but that's what i think he means, although its not that big of a deal as infestors are really squishy.
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On June 13 2010 10:36 Severedevil wrote:
If you're not using Phoenix, you have no right to complain that PvP is boring.
I've not been very impressed with DT builds in any matchup, but bear in mind that DT allows you to backtech Charge or Blink, and if your opponent doesn't have at least two observers (one in their base and one with their army) they can't move out, because you can either DT counter or cut up their army. A DT rush followed by some combination of Speedlot/Sentry/DT/Archon might be viable against robo openings.
But, seriously, if you want to rape Robo openings, get Phoenix.
again ur relying on wat ur opponent is doing, u have to be under the assumption that he does have 2 obs and he did scout ur b.o, any mass gate follow up after dting puts u behind macrowise because 1base collo is so strong, ud get overrun
like i said im looking for a safe macro build follow up to dt teching (AS I MENTIONED IN MY POST)
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On June 13 2010 10:34 Alou wrote:
I've only used DT's in PvP a few times. I would just play defensively and snipe his observers with the army so I could back some units off and let the DT's rape, but that wasn't really a decent strategy.. I don't think DT's are really effective in PvP, but I really dont think they can be changed either as it could change PvZ and PvT too much. Also you could scout before and see if your opponent is committing heavy to a 4 warpgate build. If you can get enough to hold it off and get the tech going that could work really well. I agree that DT's aren't seen in PvP much, but I don't see a change coming as they are effective in other match ups.
yea i agree that as it is the dt tech tree is effective in pvz in pvt, thats why i didnt bring it up in my post but i still feel like there could be a way of fixing dt openings in pvp without messing up the balance in other mus
i honesly cant think of a pvx mu apart from pvp where a whole tech branch is competly removed.. it just makes no sense to me
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OP... why is it so important that a DT "rush" becomes standard viable play?
If DT rushing was such a viable opening that PvP players don't get punished adequately for its failure... then what kind of "interesting" meta-game would that bring?
I'm getting my fireproof jacket ready as I claim that "DT rushing" is borderline cheese-play. Why would anyone stake their game upon a unit that's dependent on the single attribute that it is cloaked.
All-in-all, its not a safe opening, one deserves to get punished for rushing DT... you're playing as the protoss, not japanese ninjas.
Oh, and DTs probably won't even win against a 4-gate all-in.
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EPT
