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I totally agree with the OP. DTs are way too dandegrous to go straight for in PvP because a simple obs will lose you the game and every decent protoss out there will have at least one observer on the field at that time.
either he scouts the shrine with it, either he spots the dts at your ramp and your screwed. Leaving DTs almost unusued in PvP.
Problem here is if you get your tech scouted, you have to change your game plans because you obviously won't do much damage with your DTs now. But you basicly have to change your whole tech, spam some more gates and expand. But it won't happen because the second your shrine is noticed, you will get rolled over by his army and you'll never be ready to defend it.
I'm not sure is has to be changed tho. Expansions will bring new units in the mix and that will affect mirror matches a lot. When PvP gets more diversified with more options to open with, maybe a DT rush will have more chances to catch your oponnent off guard at that time. Because you'll have more builds to think about..I dont know actually.
EDIT: added some more thoughts
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I still don't quite get this thread. I think everyone agrees that there's something wrong with dt/ht tech. What I don't get is why a DT rush needs to be a viable build in PvP. Rushing to a T3 unit in any mirror matchup will put you behind if it fails, and shouldn't that be the case?
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On June 14 2010 04:59 Mack wrote:
I still don't quite get this thread. I think everyone agrees that there's something wrong with dt/ht tech. What I don't get is why a DT rush needs to be a viable build in PvP. Rushing to a T3 unit in any mirror matchup will put you behind if it fails, and shouldn't that be the case?
This is not what he is saying. It's been addressed a thousand times that this isn't about "
omg rush to dt's omgomg yess." It's like 75% of the people who have posted in this thread have never seen a BW PvP match in their entire life.
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I still don't agree with splitting DTs from HTs, but w/e.
I think they're more useful at PvZ, but PvP is indeed more or less the same.
P.S. I'm toss in both sc1 and sc2.
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On June 13 2010 12:26 dignity wrote:
What I do not understand is why you are trying to force DTs to be used as a rushed unit. There are plenty of other ways to be using DTs and just because they were used in BW that way does not mean they should be used for the same identical purpose.
If you think about the tech needed to get to the dark shrine, you need the twilight council. Why not get the blink first and get stalkers, or get chargelots, and hide your dark shrine when you do get it? DTs can still give you an advantage, as you can just invest in one or two DTs and switch back to standard play. This would keep your opponents on their toes, and possibly get them to overcommit with cannons.
in bw there was a build where ud go dts into a fast expansion and were able to hold off your opponent's attacks by teching to templars and getting storm while expanding, the main point of this thread is that there is no b.o as of now that can mimic this type of opening in sc2
when i use the term "dt rush" it basically means opening up with a dt build, the wording has just stuck with me from bw but wat i was trying to say is opening up with a dt tech..
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Hm...i wouldnt say that DT rushes arent viable in PvP...
Ok, maybe a DT Rush is kind of risky... but to add them after an standard warpgate opening is sometimes very useful...
In the later beta weeks i often met protoss players who moved away from the robo to colossi play and used warpgate and stargate openings instead. I go usually for a 3 Gate Blinkstalker Opening in PvP and if i scout another no robo player or no forge (or a forge but no cannon) i add a dark shrine to punish his play... mostly very succesful. Even if the Protoss got Cannons, some DTs can easily contain him until he sets his robo up, which leaves you some important time with total mapcontrol.
Its true... starting a game and directly run for DTs is quiet risky, because its hard to deal with an early robo push... go for DTs is nothing which should be rushed in PvP... go for a more secured opening and if there is an opportunity, add DTs asap.
PS: Ancient right over me mentions that DTs crush a 4 gate all in, which was still very common, even in higher diamond rankings.
PPS: I dont think there is big need about making DT rushes viable in PvP... its very viable in all the other MUs and a little bit later quiet useful in PvP, so i dont see why we need DT rushes in PvP?
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On June 13 2010 22:47 Arikuna wrote:
Why didn't NonY post this thread for tt1?
Maybe edit the OP to make your point clear and avoid further 4 pages of ppl complaining about your seemingly nooby complaint?
the only reason theres so much complaint is because 95% of the posters have no idea what im talking about, thats why i asked for the opinions of the more veteran players from the scene in order to avoid 10 pages worth of explanation on how sc1 pvp worked, also im not asking for sc2 to be a remake of bw but theres a reason why blizzard brought the same tech branch back into sc2, dt teching into ht was a fundemental aspect of pvp.. the same tools are available to us right now, why not try to make it work?
it would have been much easier if i just came out and said "plz dont post in this thread if u have no bw experience" right off the bat
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On June 14 2010 05:48 iamtt1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 22:47 Arikuna wrote:
Why didn't NonY post this thread for tt1?
Maybe edit the OP to make your point clear and avoid further 4 pages of ppl complaining about your seemingly nooby complaint? the only reason theres so much complaint is because 95% of the posters have no idea what im talking about, thats why i asked for the opinions of the more veteran players from the scene in order to avoid 10 pages worth of explanation on how sc1 pvp worked it would have been much easier if i just came out and said "plz dont post on this thread if u have no bw experience" right off the bat
wouldnt help either.
what do you think of giving the shrine a nice upgrade? or the DTs in general?
Because I really would not like it if the templar buildings would merge. T and Z have to invest more ressources to get detection than in BW.
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the problem IS NOT with the unit itself but with the building mechanics which i already adressed in my OP post(building time/cost of the DS + the building time/cost of the templar archive make it impossible to follow up dt openings into storm in order to transition into an early expansion after dt rushing), do any of you even read before posting?
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On June 14 2010 05:48 iamtt1 wrote:
the only reason theres so much complaint is because 95% of the posters have no idea what im talking about, thats why i asked for the opinions of the more veteran players from the scene in order to avoid 10 pages worth of explanation on how sc1 pvp worked
it would have been much easier if i just came out and said "plz dont post on this thread if u have no bw experience" right off the bat
The problem is in the communication. You're combining two games here. This is no longer BW — the units are different, the techs are different, the mechanics are different. You're trying to get a build from BW to directly translate to a SC2 build.
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yes exactly.. no one is forcing you to post
and the units + the techs are not different, the exact same units and techs existed in bw
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I don't think so much this is a problem with DT tech, as it is a problem with warpgates.
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how can you NOT rely on what your opponent is doing??? Opponent makes rock, you keep sending scissors...
"Dear Blizzard.
Paper is OP, scissors are ok.
-Sincerely,
Rock"
Clearly rushing DT doesnt work...thats not a reliable BO in PvP. If you don't want robos, find a different BO (VRs perhaps? cuz immortals can't shoot up, ya?)
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On June 14 2010 06:12 iamtt1 wrote:
yes exactly.. no one is forcing you to post
and the units + the techs are not different, the exact same units and techs existed in bw
No one goes reaver in PvP in BW?
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On June 14 2010 05:56 iamtt1 wrote:
the problem IS NOT with the unit itself but with the building mechanics which i already adressed in my OP post(building time/cost of the DS + the building time/cost of the templar archive make it impossible to follow up dt openings into storm in order to transition into an early expansion after dt rushing), do any of you even read before posting?
ofc I read your OP...
but I dont agree with you. Because if there where a worthy upgrade on the shrine for the DT then it would A) make it more versatile and B) legitimate the splitted tech balance wise.
I mean there are so many possibilities that would maybe solve the problem through giving the shrine an upgrade without merging it with the templar tech.
just for the sake of examples I make some upgrades up that somehow fit the lore and the gameplay (I dont say any of them are balanced, just examples):
- detection
- maelstrom
- movement speed
- blind
- additional damage to buildings
- parasite(bw) feary fire(wc3)-like spell
- feedback (and adding sth different to HTs)
any of these upgrades could solve this "problem" you stated.
think of this analogy: if ghost-tech had the same problem, then it would probably be more reasonable to give the tech more versatility through an ability/upgrade rather than merging it with another tech. for example if it hadnt EMP.
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On June 14 2010 06:15 GG.Win wrote:
I don't think so much this is a problem with DT tech, as it is a problem with warpgates.
yea the problem isnt that easy to solve, even if you fix the building mechanics you still have to deal with the insane mobility of protoss, pylon warpins inbase or a warp prism elevator would still be hard to defend
add to that the fact that storm is garbage vs collos =/, o well i guess we have to stick with dt openers as being an allin build in sc2 pvp ^_^, weeeeeeeeeeeee 1base robo vs 3g/4g ftw
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I do agree that going straight into DT tech in PvP is somewhat of an all-in move. I will only go straight to DT if my opponent has gone 4 gate and is very aggressive. What I like to do is transition into dark templar by first getting blink stalkers, and attacking, then getting DT's eventually, and only using them when the time is right. Using DTs to attack units is just going to give them an opportunity to get observers. I usually try to get into the enemy base with two dts, search for a robotics, then focus fire it down with blink stalkers and dts. At that point, they will either have no observers, and you win, or they have 1 and are contained until they can get a robotics up.
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No BW strategy is supposed to work in SC2, even though some do.
Invisibility-based rushes in SC2 are probably best vs Terran. Because Zerg and Protoss tend to have mobile detection quite early.
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well i edited my OP post, hopefully things are more clear now
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I'm going to attempt to clarify the points being addressed in this thread (or at least trying to be addressed).
1. The PvP openings are largely one-dimensional. It seems that if you don't open with some combination of Gateways and Robos, then you are crippling yourself.
2. It's suggested that Templar tech should be made a more viable option like it was in BW.
Once again, the issue is the OPENING, not necessarily the units or army compositions themselves. This thread is not about DTs or HTs being too weak or any such nonsense. It is addressing the issue that if you open with DTs in mind, you are basically committed to going all-in.
The points that should be discussed/debated in this thread are
A) Whether the match-up really IS one-dimensional (though I don't think I've really seen anyone argue this)
B) Whether the Templar branch could/should be adjusted to serve as a solution to this match-up diversity issue.
C) Perhaps some other suggestions for diversifying the PvP match-up.
That being said, I myself am probably not qualified to give my own opinions on what could/should be done as I'm not all that good at SC2, and I didn't play SC1 competitively and didn't follow the competitive scene either.
I do, however, always like to caution people about making assumptions about something that may not have been completely explored yet. Basically, are you sure that their isn't some build order or unit compilation that DOES make DTs and Templar Tech in general viable against standard openings?
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EPT
