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maybe I must clarify my opinion:
the reason why I dont like his solution (namely merging HT&DT tech) is because it would dumb down the tech to a BW variant. It would be much more interesting if the DT tech had more usability/versatility in itself. this is why I gave random examples of how it could be done.
either way: Iam not even sure if PvP is one dimensional. I actually had quite some success with stargate openings against robo openings. this is why I stated earlyer that not every opening must be automatically viable. the blink stalker opening is another viable example on backdoor maps.
that said: I would still like to see more usability/versatility according to the shrine tech. the DT is in my opinion too much of a niche product (as it also was in bw).
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Yeah I'm not really sure I understand this. Your only problem is DT RUSH, they're still viable if you go macro 1st and open with something else.
I don't really see what the big deal about not being able to open with DT in PvP is, that seems like a pretty niche little area, and not something which needs to be fixed. So DTs are not useful for rushing in PvP, but only in later game and/or other MUs. Isn't this similar to the way Reapers are being used (almost exclusively in early-game) in only 1 area/purpose?
I don't see a problem here.
Edit: So they work differently than they did in BW. I think people need to stop playing SC2 like its BW. It's a different game. Blizzard don't want things to work the same way, they don't want people to be using units in the same way. They want people to find new ways to work with units, new builds, new strategies and openings.
If your quick-DT into FE doesn't work in SC2 like it did in BW, then do something else. Stop trying to play SC2 like its BW. A lot of units carried over from SC1 work differently now, people need to adapt and try new things.
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The problem with posting shit on the sc2 forums. 80% will argue against points you actually didn't make.
You're all right. There's no problem with every single PvP game revolving around 4+ gateways with the occasional robo mixed in. The next two years will hold lots of fun times...
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Feel free to ignore, just another random (but good) idea that is way too late to possibly be considered as a change:
Remove high templar and dark templar from gateway production
Remove Dark Shrine building
Add new unit - TEMPLAR to gateway construction, prereq: templar archives
Templar is pretty useless unmorphed (give it an attack or no? balance thing i suppose), but has the ability to morph to high templar or dark templar individually
Morphings take 30 sec and extra resources (more gas for high temps, more minerals for dark temps, overall cost of templar+morph should equal the cost of the unit right now) (times subject to balance).
Add upgrade to templar archives that reduces morph time to instantaneous, but the upgrade takes like 60-80 sec (aka a long time).
This solutions would solve a lot of the issues raised in this thread no?
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Yea, the biggest problem with DTs is that any 3/4 Warpgate rush is going to total you and all your stuff while he gets some detection to win the game. And there isn't really a good transition from it either: I mean yea, you got your Council up and can get Charge/Blink, but it's still another building (Templar Archives) to have more useful tech, unless you full on switch to Stargate or Robo.
It makes the match-up very stagnant, and we're only a few months into Beta. Not specific to PvP but definitely showcased here the strongest, Templar tech feels clunky and inefficient. Something needs to be done to streamline the possibilities.
I think giving an upgrade at the Templar Archives that costs 150/200 and takes (Dark Shrine build time minus Templar Archives build time) to research that allows you to warp in DTs. If that feels too easy, then make a pre-req on it such as 'Requires Warp Gate technology" or something to slow it down.
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The Starcraft 2 forum is filled with so much garbage replies and threads.
"I don't understand the problem."
If you don't understand the problem, don't post at all. It just makes YOU look like an idiot, and you need badass ballers like Nony to give you a detailed description of the problem because you failed to understand the issues at hand.
The problem is that PvP is extremely boring because the process of getting Dark Templar is highly time consuming and expensive, and leaves you with NO followup strategy (i.e. Expand while getting Storm).
Well why is this a problem? We all want SC2 to be a successful awesome spectator esport. We want it to require skill but also more importantly we want the option to do what we want. We want the game to be interesting. In Brood War, PvP was perhaps the most dynamic of the mirror matchups. You could use different tech routes, just like in a PvT or PvZ. If you were weak at Reaver control, but a beast at key cloning Storms, you could do a fast expand/storm build.
Please nurture the mirror matchups so that we don't dread watching PvP OS2L finals like when we had to go through the agonizing experience of watching back to back ZvZ finals in both SC1 Starleagues.
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i think dt's although cost a shit load of gas (and also the dark shrine) the dt's dont have a problem as a unit themselves, i think having them WARP IN from a pylon anywhere around the map makes them powerful but the dark shrine takes sooooo long to build
i would be happy with just a faster build time or just less gas for the dark shrine, meaning u can get it earlier (even if it takes 2 mins, we can get it a min earlier or whatever) u get the drift but definitely something needs to be changed,
atm, going dt's is too gas heavy and time consuming - it will only hurt ur army count earlier in the game and ull have to do off gateway units
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On June 14 2010 09:13 LaLuSh wrote:
The problem with posting shit on the sc2 forums. 80% will argue against points you actually didn't make.
You're all right. There's no problem with every single PvP game revolving around 4+ gateways with the occasional robo mixed in. The next two years will hold lots of fun times...
Just because that's the only style currently dominating doesn't mean it's the only viable option. PvZ in BW changed completely from 1 base to FE without any additional patches. 95% of the posts complaining about SC2 are from people who are bad or think that the top SC2 players now would even be able to compete against the top players 2 years from now.
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DTs are fine as a unit, its just that as everyone is saying- its a deadend tech path with no other support options whatsoever. I think what they REALLY need to do is merge the two buildings. Everyone is complaining about the council tech-path. I really so no issues arising from merging the buildings.
I know blizzard will never merge them, but its still wishful thinking I suppose. For now I just make DT as a cheese or in really late game when I'm like "Eh, what the hell lets throw in some DTs to scout/hold expos.
As an early or even mid game strategy they are a complete and utter waste of time if you plan on taking yourself seriously in trying to win.
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Players have to keep in mind that Sc2 is a completely different game from Sc:BW. Just because a unit's properties remain unchanged does not mean the unit's purpose also remains unchanged. Since the tech pathing is different in Sc2, the unit's role would also change to reflect such changes. The idea that DTs are a "dead end tech" could suggest that its role is not to be used as an opening, as it is no longer viable. Forcing a unit to fit a specific role is not what any strategy game is about.
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added a poll, pls answer accordingly!
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On June 14 2010 10:35 dignity wrote:
Players have to keep in mind that Sc2 is a completely different game from Sc:BW. Just because a unit's properties remain unchanged does not mean the unit's purpose also remains unchanged. Since the tech pathing is different in Sc2, the unit's role would also change to reflect such changes. The idea that DTs are a "dead end tech" could suggest that its role is not to be used as an opening, as it is no longer viable. Forcing a unit to fit a specific role is not what any strategy game is about.
If not an early harass/contain unit, what roll does the DT then fill? Beefy Zealot? If your opponent went Robo first, then they will certainly have Observers available or be able to Chrono one out in no time.
Or is it supposed to serve an idle position of standing by at empty expansions? Seems pretty pricey for something a Zealot, Probe, or patrolling Observer could do as well.
I'm not saying you can't punish someone's lack of detection with DTs to the mineral line, or harassing the edge of someone's base. It's just that by the time you could (safely) get DTs out, their purpose has long since expired.
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it does serve as a good ghetto archon, 50 gas discount
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On June 14 2010 09:45 Tump wrote:
The Starcraft 2 forum is filled with so much garbage replies and threads.
"I don't understand the problem."
If you don't understand the problem, don't post at all. It just makes YOU look like an idiot, and you need badass ballers like Nony to give you a detailed description of the problem because you failed to understand the issues at hand.
The problem is that PvP is extremely boring because the process of getting Dark Templar is highly time consuming and expensive, and leaves you with NO followup strategy (i.e. Expand while getting Storm).
Well why is this a problem? We all want SC2 to be a successful awesome spectator esport. We want it to require skill but also more importantly we want the option to do what we want. We want the game to be interesting. In Brood War, PvP was perhaps the most dynamic of the mirror matchups. You could use different tech routes, just like in a PvT or PvZ. If you were weak at Reaver control, but a beast at key cloning Storms, you could do a fast expand/storm build.
Please nurture the mirror matchups so that we don't dread watching PvP OS2L finals like when we had to go through the agonizing experience of watching back to back ZvZ finals in both SC1 Starleagues.
well i wouldnt say that sc2 pvp is boring, its just too predictable.. it makes the mu less competitive
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On June 14 2010 10:52 yarkO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 10:35 dignity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Players have to keep in mind that Sc2 is a completely different game from Sc:BW. Just because a unit's properties remain unchanged does not mean the unit's purpose also remains unchanged. Since the tech pathing is different in Sc2, the unit's role would also change to reflect such changes. The idea that DTs are a "dead end tech" could suggest that its role is not to be used as an opening, as it is no longer viable. Forcing a unit to fit a specific role is not what any strategy game is about. If not an early harass/contain unit, what roll does the DT then fill? Beefy Zealot? If your opponent went Robo first, then they will certainly have Observers available or be able to Chrono one out in no time. Or is it supposed to serve an idle position of standing by at empty expansions? Seems pretty pricey for something a Zealot, Probe, or patrolling Observer could do as well. I'm not saying you can't punish someone's lack of detection with DTs to the mineral line, or harassing the edge of someone's base. It's just that by the time you could (safely) get DTs out, their purpose has long since expired.
One way to use DTs, as stated in my previous post, is to get map control. You only need 2 or 3 DTs to get your opponent to react to you, and depending on how many points they want to defend against your DTs they would use much more resources for that defense than you would for going DTs in the first place.
DTs are also quite good if you weave them into a late game army, as once you snipe their observers they can do an enormous amount of damage to the other player's army.
Another way to use DTs is to make use of the fact that they can be warped in. You can get a warp prism and warp in DTs anywhere you want and get them to snipe key buildings because they are so strong. Even if such a tactic is suicide for your DTs it can be justified if you take out an essential building.
There are many ways to use DTs and their usefulness is not only limited to containing an opponent. Sc2 is no longer the same game and you should not keep the mindset that units should be used in the same way.
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On June 14 2010 10:44 iamtt1 wrote:
added a poll, pls answer accordingly!
Your poll is silly. Whether or not you played Brood War is irrelevant. Not having BW experience shouldn't invalidate your opinion if it is reasonably backed up.
Starcraft 2 is NOT Brood War. If you want everything to remain the same as it did in Brood War then play that instead.
Like several people (and myself) have said, Dark Templars are high tier units in Starcraft 2 (one might even say top tier), and high tier units cannot be rushed effectively in the early game (providing your opposition is capable). This was the same in Brood War too.
To me, this is your argument in a nutshell:
Dark Templars don't work early game,
I want them to work early game,
Therefore, they should work early game
My problem isn't with the proposition that Dark Templars should be more viable, but with your badly constructed "argument". If you actually presented a constructive argument which made points outside of "I want this" and "Brood War had this", then maybe people would be more inclined to listen.
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On June 14 2010 11:22 dignity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 10:52 yarkO wrote:On June 14 2010 10:35 dignity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Players have to keep in mind that Sc2 is a completely different game from Sc:BW. Just because a unit's properties remain unchanged does not mean the unit's purpose also remains unchanged. Since the tech pathing is different in Sc2, the unit's role would also change to reflect such changes. The idea that DTs are a "dead end tech" could suggest that its role is not to be used as an opening, as it is no longer viable. Forcing a unit to fit a specific role is not what any strategy game is about. If not an early harass/contain unit, what roll does the DT then fill? Beefy Zealot? If your opponent went Robo first, then they will certainly have Observers available or be able to Chrono one out in no time. Or is it supposed to serve an idle position of standing by at empty expansions? Seems pretty pricey for something a Zealot, Probe, or patrolling Observer could do as well. I'm not saying you can't punish someone's lack of detection with DTs to the mineral line, or harassing the edge of someone's base. It's just that by the time you could (safely) get DTs out, their purpose has long since expired. One way to use DTs, as stated in my previous post, is to get map control. You only need 2 or 3 DTs to get your opponent to react to you, and depending on how many points they want to defend against your DTs they would use much more resources for that defense than you would for going DTs in the first place. DTs are also quite good if you weave them into a late game army, as once you snipe their observers they can do an enormous amount of damage to the other player's army. Another way to use DTs is to make use of the fact that they can be warped in. You can get a warp prism and warp in DTs anywhere you want and get them to snipe key buildings because they are so strong. Even if such a tactic is suicide for your DTs it can be justified if you take out an essential building. There are many ways to use DTs and their usefulness is not only limited to containing an opponent. Sc2 is no longer the same game and you should not keep the mindset that units should be used in the same way.
OK, so you basically repeated my post in an argumentative way.
So our tier 3, expensive and extended build time, is supposed to achieve map control. And by forcing my opponent to react, you mean build Observers (as he would anyways with a Robo build).
And how do you snipe Observers in PvP when you open with DTs? And if you aren't going to open with DTs, why would you add them to a late-game army when their tech is so distant from any other opening you can imagine? If you started Robo, you aren't going to suddenly drop a TC and switch to DT; you would more than likely add a Support Bay and get Colossus in most cases. Teh DT tech is so long to acquire, and easy to scout/react in it's build time. The only time you can really exploit their main advantage (cloak) is before detection becomes rampant.
If the game has gotten to a point where you have both Robotics and DT tech, and enough units to snipe Observers, then they are really just beefy Zealots with a gimmick (cloak).
DT>FE in Brood War made it a more diverse match-up. If you couldn't use DTs, every single player would just 1/2 gate Robotics and every single PvP would end up the same way. It's boring. Having DT openings be viable is a staple of PvP.
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I agree that I rarely get dts in PVP, but thats because of the historical prevalence of robo builds. I'd say to give the game more time to mature and we'll see some more builds, which can make DTs more (or less) effective. If they merged the dt shrine and the templar archives then it'd reduce the opportunity cost entailed in teching to dts, which would help a bit
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On June 14 2010 11:38 yarkO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 11:22 dignity wrote:On June 14 2010 10:52 yarkO wrote:On June 14 2010 10:35 dignity wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Players have to keep in mind that Sc2 is a completely different game from Sc:BW. Just because a unit's properties remain unchanged does not mean the unit's purpose also remains unchanged. Since the tech pathing is different in Sc2, the unit's role would also change to reflect such changes. The idea that DTs are a "dead end tech" could suggest that its role is not to be used as an opening, as it is no longer viable. Forcing a unit to fit a specific role is not what any strategy game is about. + Show Spoiler +If not an early harass/contain unit, what roll does the DT then fill? Beefy Zealot? If your opponent went Robo first, then they will certainly have Observers available or be able to Chrono one out in no time.
Or is it supposed to serve an idle position of standing by at empty expansions? Seems pretty pricey for something a Zealot, Probe, or patrolling Observer could do as well.
I'm not saying you can't punish someone's lack of detection with DTs to the mineral line, or harassing the edge of someone's base. It's just that by the time you could (safely) get DTs out, their purpose has long since expired. + Show Spoiler +
One way to use DTs, as stated in my previous post, is to get map control. You only need 2 or 3 DTs to get your opponent to react to you, and depending on how many points they want to defend against your DTs they would use much more resources for that defense than you would for going DTs in the first place.
DTs are also quite good if you weave them into a late game army, as once you snipe their observers they can do an enormous amount of damage to the other player's army.
Another way to use DTs is to make use of the fact that they can be warped in. You can get a warp prism and warp in DTs anywhere you want and get them to snipe key buildings because they are so strong. Even if such a tactic is suicide for your DTs it can be justified if you take out an essential building.
There are many ways to use DTs and their usefulness is not only limited to containing an opponent. Sc2 is no longer the same game and you should not keep the mindset that units should be used in the same way.
+ Show Spoiler +
OK, so you basically repeated my post in an argumentative way.
So our tier 3, expensive and extended build time, is supposed to achieve map control. And by forcing my opponent to react, you mean build Observers (as he would anyways with a Robo build).
And how do you snipe Observers in PvP when you open with DTs? And if you aren't going to open with DTs, why would you add them to a late-game army when their tech is so distant from any other opening you can imagine? If you started Robo, you aren't going to suddenly drop a TC and switch to DT; you would more than likely add a Support Bay and get Colossus in most cases. Teh DT tech is so long to acquire, and easy to scout/react in it's build time. The only time you can really exploit their main advantage (cloak) is before detection becomes rampant.
If the game has gotten to a point where you have both Robotics and DT tech, and enough units to snipe Observers, then they are really just beefy Zealots with a gimmick (cloak).
DT>FE in Brood War made it a more diverse match-up. If you couldn't use DTs, every single player would just 1/2 gate Robotics and every single PvP would end up the same way. It's boring. Having DT openings be viable is a staple of PvP.
I think you missed my argument completely. My point is that DTs are not viable in a PvP match up, and so should not be used in an opening for this match up. However, the OP along with a lot of this thread talked about changing the tech pathing to DTs just because they do not work as an opening, and that is what I disagree with. How a unit does not function in one part of the game does not warrant a change.
I proposed different ways to use DTs to back up my point that they are not useless in this match up simply because they cannot be used like they were in Sc: BW.
As for the argument that PvP is a boring match up, you have to keep in mind that Sc2 is still very young. It is still only in the beta. If you look back I am fairly certain the same was said for Sc: BW. I would go so far to even say that the idea of fast observers are based off of the idea that DTs were used in this match up back in Sc: BW, and that this current build is used because of that.
I believe that the lack of viability for early DTs would actually evolve the metagame if nothing else. If most Protoss players go for this early robotics tech, players will start getting early phoenixes. Eventually people might start going for another strategy to counter the phoenix play, and one day there might be a time when DTs become viable because nobody worries about them anymore, since they will be viewed as the "instant lose" opening.
The idea of a game like Starcraft is not always to force a unit to fit a build, but to build your strategy around the capabilities of the units that you want to use. If a DT opening does not work right now, there is nothing wrong with that. Simply use DTs for something else if you want to utilize that in the matchup in question.
PS: If I used the term "metagame" incorrectly, I apologies ahead of time. I am still fairly new to the term and its meaning.
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DT's aren't bad at all. They're pretty commonly used. They make a nice transition for a fast blink build. You don't tech DT's hoping your opponent won't have observers yet leading to an automatic win. You make DT's for map control and for harass. Observers are also gas-expensive and easily sniped with blink.
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EPT
