EPTI really want to see that. Rei sorry you have no chances of having the upper hand over TT1 in a bo7, but I dare you to try. (I want to see you transition out of a DT opening)
The inefficiency of DT tech in PvP - Page 11
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UnderWorld_Dream
Canada219 Posts
I really want to see that. Rei sorry you have no chances of having the upper hand over TT1 in a bo7, but I dare you to try. (I want to see you transition out of a DT opening) | ||
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XDsCrazy
Canada119 Posts
In SC2 you can (im pretty sure) use blink stalker to harrass (depending on map) and buy time to set up your expo so would it be possible to add DT tech to blink stalker OR open DT and follow with blink stalker to get that time to expo and get either storm or robo tech. Does it worth it ? all those question ill try to play with when beta come back up  | ||
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
On June 18 2010 06:27 XDsCrazy wrote: In SC1 you could use the DT themself to buy time to get your xpo up and transition into a lategame macro game. In SC2 you can (im pretty sure) use blink stalker to harrass (depending on map) and buy time to set up your expo so would it be possible to add DT tech to blink stalker OR open DT and follow with blink stalker to get that time to expo and get either storm or robo tech. Does it worth it ? all those question ill try to play with when beta come back up I totally do this nearly every game. www.livestream.com/tozar And it is worth it. | ||
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TT1
Canada9984 Posts
On June 18 2010 06:27 XDsCrazy wrote: In SC1 you could use the DT themself to buy time to get your xpo up and transition into a lategame macro game. In SC2 you can (im pretty sure) use blink stalker to harrass (depending on map) and buy time to set up your expo so would it be possible to add DT tech to blink stalker OR open DT and follow with blink stalker to get that time to expo and get either storm or robo tech. Does it worth it ? all those question ill try to play with when beta come back up would rarely work at a high level, first of all you would need at least 2g's in order to have a relatively decent army to buy you some time so you could expand(anything above 2g would slow you down too much) but even then your opponent would be so ahead of you that he could just run you over while defeding your stalker blink attacks by pumping immortals and reinforcing them with his 3g's also your playing blindely so your opponent could just switch to dts when he sees your going for a late robo b.o and dt drop your main he can also just mirror your b.o by expaning, hed still be able to easily block your harass while having the tech(easy transition to collos), eco and unit advantage | ||
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Mack
United States25 Posts
On June 18 2010 06:44 iamtt1 wrote: also your playing blindely so your opponent could just switch to dts when he sees your going for a late robo b.o and dt drop your main Sounds like effective use of dt tech in PvP. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
Maybe if you read the OP or thread at all, you'd see were talking about how ineffective it is to DT fast expand. | ||
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XDsCrazy
Canada119 Posts
Plus you kinda need a robo rather quickly because like you said, opponent can see your late robo/no detect and DT drop ur main. So basicly you need a robo in PvP most of the time unless you want to invest in Canon. that mean that if you want to open with DT and still be "safe" youll invest into a forge for some canon to not get caught yourself with DTs. Question then is, is the use of a forge for fast upgrade worth it in pvp ? does +1 attack or +1 armor make a big enough difference that this upgrade + defensive canon will worth it in the end ? Big issue is that a player that get fast ob and see you invest into a forge and morph some canon will simply expand himself. the only benefit that is left is probably the faster upgrades. Question then is, are those upgrade a big enough factor (can get +2 quick since you have the concil already) that it will make a big difference in the middle game push you will plan when your +2 (armor or attack) will finish ? So the middle game push would look like .... charge zlot / stalker / sentry (orb) / templar (storm) vs stalker / zlot / collosi 2nd army seem stronger but does that upgrade bonus worth it in pvp ? | ||
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Mack
United States25 Posts
On June 18 2010 07:12 Tump wrote: Maybe if you read the OP or thread at all, you'd see were talking about how ineffective it is to DT fast expand. I've read every post on every page. The gist of it is that some people believe that 4gate and 3gate robo will be the only builds to ever exist in PvP until the end of time and it is imperative that a build that worked in BW should work the same way in SC2. Regardless of the whole DT thing, the underlying issue was that PvP is currently pretty stale in terms of opening builds, and I agree, just not that a DT rush NEEEEEDS to be viable against 3gate robo. BW is a great game, no one is arguing against that, but SC2 is not BW with better graphics. Things are different, please accept it. Some things aren't going to work the same and they shouldn't. Who's to blame for the bland PvP games? All of us who are only practicing with those same builds. Three cheers for people like NonY who get the rest of us to try new things. | ||
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XDsCrazy
Canada119 Posts
In SC2 it could be Stargate unit instead of templar tech unit. I think it could be viable to go phoenix and be able to harass worker line and use them defensivly to hold the push a 3 gate/robo or 4 gate player will do. Can transition into VR for mid/late game to compete against colossi and stuff. Maybe we are looking in the wrong direction for the "alternative" opening and just miss on the Stargate tree which can be viable. | ||
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
As for DT's being useless: White-ra won that game with DT usage, and he didn't need to go for a rush to be effective. The sky is the limit if you are a truly creative player, so stop asking for your old metagame conventions back. | ||
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TT1
Canada9984 Posts
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XDsCrazy
Canada119 Posts
On June 18 2010 07:54 Sueco wrote: Making the DT rush harder was a good move. Any tech path that makes invisible units available too soon makes gameplay very all-or-nothing, ergo boring. Good move by Blizzard. As for DT's being useless: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh0_cZ2HpOs White-ra won that game with DT usage, and he didn't need to go for a rush to be effective. The sky is the limit if you are a truly creative player, so stop asking for your old metagame conventions back. You missed the point COMPLETLY, TT1 never said DT were bad, he said their was NO ISSUE with the unit itself. He said it is impossible to OPEN DT and transition after that. So that create the problem of a 1 dimensional match up where everyone always do the same because you CANT open with another tech tree and transition into mid game without been behind. again THE UNIT IS OK THE possible TRANSITION out of IT are bad in PvP if you OPEN with it so the problem is ? One dimensional opening in PvP ! | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
DT's are a good option in PvP if you're opening blink-stalkers. Blink-stalkers is not the most common opening (robo is probably most common, followed by stalker/sentry openings, and then phoenix openings and blink-stalker openings are probably next most common), but it's certainly not a bad opening. It easily beats stargate openings and it holds it own against any pure warpgate openings. The problem is it's not great against robo openings, which at present, are very common. On maps like Kulas that have a lot of terrain to abuse, however, blink-stalkers will actually perfectly well against a robo opening. It's a choice of play-style. Anyway, if you do open blink-stalkers, DT's are a perfectly good transition. They have the potential to end the game if your opponent has really delayed his robo tech, but against competent players, no-detection wins will be few and far between. That doesn't mean DT's are useless. In mid-to-late game, protoss players like to use their robo facilities to constantly produce chronoboosted immortals and collosi. Gas is also extremely tight in Protoss mid-to-late game, so Protoss players typically make only 1 or 2 observers. Even after your opponent has 2 observers, a small number of DT's offers a substantial amount of map control and can make it very difficult for your opponent to take his third base. The DT's also force your opponent to build extra observers which will damage his immortal/collosi count. You'll really have him on the ropes if you can use your own observer and blink to snipe a few observers here and there. DT's also make for a cheap drop if your opponent's detection is caught out of position. DT's don't automatically win the game for you. They are just one good option among many. If you do choose to go blink-stalker into DT tho, my advice would be to make sure your opponent isn't able to build up a significan collosi count or you'll be far behind. | ||
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TT1
Canada9984 Posts
On June 18 2010 07:57 XDsCrazy wrote: You missed the point COMPLETLY, TT1 never said DT were bad, he said their was NO ISSUE with the unit itself. He said it is impossible to OPEN DT and transition after that. So that create the problem of a 1 dimensional match up where everyone always do the same because you CANT open with another tech tree and transition into mid game without been behind. again THE UNIT IS OK THE possible TRANSITION out of IT are bad in PvP if you OPEN with it so the problem is ? One dimensional opening in PvP ! theres no need to reply, you should have just asked me what the gpod is | ||
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raph
United States204 Posts
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raph
United States204 Posts
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TT1
Canada9984 Posts
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
Let me rephrase 1) been able to rush with higher tech ... stealth ...units 2) Should you failed on it ( impossible really ) to have no consequences . Now why i never thought of this | ||
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Zidane
United States1684 Posts
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Sueco
Sweden283 Posts
On June 18 2010 07:57 XDsCrazy wrote: You missed the point COMPLETLY, TT1 never said DT were bad, he said their was NO ISSUE with the unit itself. He said it is impossible to OPEN DT and transition after that. So that create the problem of a 1 dimensional match up where everyone always do the same because you CANT open with another tech tree and transition into mid game without been behind. again THE UNIT IS OK THE possible TRANSITION out of IT are bad in PvP if you OPEN with it so the problem is ? One dimensional opening in PvP ! Thats the entire point. There isn't supposed to be a DT "opening" as much as there isn't supposed to be any banshee "opening". High-tech cloaked units are not supposed to be an main opening unit in SC2 by design. Just because something could be done in BW due to HT's and DT's coming out of the same tech doesn't mean its an idea worth carrying over. | ||
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